Talk:Indie role-playing game

Major revision
This page is referenced from all Forge games on Wikipedia, games I care about, so I want it to look good. It's really important, though, to get a broader picture of the indie business than just the Forge, so I thank the anonymous 24.235.142.219 for that. I cross-edited the article with him/her, so if anything looks really messed up it's my fault and I'll correct it tomorrow if no one else does. Great work, whoever you are! I want to invite you to the WikiProject on Role-playing games if you haven't been already.

Also, Jeltz, I removed the "aggregator" part of 20' by 20' room and you put it back again. It's not an aggregator, it's a collaborative blog written by multiple people. Jonas Karlsson 00:40, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Indepedent All Over Again
First of all, thanks for your kind words (I'm the guy who did the big revision).

Secondly, though, I made a minor edit because of a bit of POV and some redundant terminology. *All* mainstream companies sell through non three tier venues, and *most* of them are independent businesses. Offhand, I can only name WotC and Black Industries as true RPG "subsidiaries." You might also include licensors like FanPro as a "non-ndependent" publisher. All the same, though, companies like White Wolf and Palladium are owned and ultimately run by their founders, but they wouldn't fit under any definition of "indie." Furthermore, some small companies are technically imprints of a company that exists for tax purposes (I know of one; they came out with Hearts Swords Flowers for BESM as well as a couple of owner-designed games), so scale, rather than legal organization, is really the primary factor. Plus, setting that definition kind of ruins the point of a section about "other definitions," especially since it's posible to see a largish company in the same way that an artist sees an indie publisher or record label. Remember: most independent artists do *not* DIY from start to finish (and in literary publishing, it's treated with contempt -- self-publishing your fic basically means you suck). That's the Forge's particular bias, and they've broken that rule a couple of times themselves.

I've just made an additional edit for POV. You can't privilege a definition of indie in the first line and then talk about how the definition is subject to interpretation. It's slightly weaselly, so I axed it. On the other hand, self-publishing is important, and I'll add a wikilink and aside in the article.
 * 1.It would be helpful if you signed your talk page comments. 2. Perhaps I misunderstand your point, but it seems you are saying that NO mainstream RPG publishers distribute through three tiered distribution. 3. I also don't understand, are you saying that all "mainstream" and thus ALL RPG publishers are indie/indy/independent publishers? --Vampyrecat (talk) 01:58, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Top Definition
The introduction still seems to have POV problems. The definition given in the first line doesn't match the definition given on either the Forge or the Indie RPG Awards, for example. I think the first line should show the range of definitions. John.h.kim 18:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Diana: Warrior Princess
I've removed Diana: Warrior Princess from the list of Forge games, since the only mention of that game on that bulliten board is holding it up as a funny title. I see no relationship between the game and the Forge. If there is some connection that I am unaware of, I'd love to hear what it is. -- Joshua BishopRoby 23:36, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The Forge Redirect
Okay, help me out here and assure me that I'm not going insane. The Forge did have a separate page at one time, didn't it? I remember a Forge wiki page, but what is now a redirect page has nothing in its history that once had content. I can understand placing it in this article (although I'm not sure I agree with it, any more than "Democratic Party" should redirect to "Republicanism"), but it used to be separate at one time, right? Right? -- Joshua BishopRoby 17:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Image for the Article
Is there any good reason not to use Image:Sorcerer rpg bookcover.jpg? The Bearded One (talk) 19:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know, is it under a creative commons license or some such? Also, what is the source? See copyright copyright tag image description page media copyright questions page Vampyrecat (talk) 20:48, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Early Indie Game
According to blogger Liz Henry at [], Richard Garfinkle published an Indie Game called "Spellcrafter" in 1988. Could this be mentioned in the article? Artemis-Arethusa (talk) 20:42, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I want to add an entire history section in which I discuss the relation of indie rpgs to "homebrew" games and rules. Any help with references and information would be great, or you could just add it yourself and I'll work on it too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vampyrecat (talk • contribs) 22:10, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Major Revision 2010
I'm getting ready to do a major rewrite of this article. Hopefully I won't step on any toes, but if I do then let's talk about it here. I am gathering references/sources to cite in the article so that The Forge isn't the ONLY source. If you have any sources/references please either edit the article yourself or leave them in a comment for me. Citing Blogs and Forums (aka Fora or even Foren) can be problematic sources due to the hyper deletionist notability/neutrality pirates, but it's better than nothing. I will happily cite them and discuss why they should remain as sources. Books, newspaper articles (including online sources), industry-wide publications, review sites (even if they are part of fandom), and podcasts seem to pass muster more easily. Vampyrecat (talk) 21:14, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
 * This article needs a history section, please help with any information you have. Thanks Vampyrecat (talk) 22:12, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The citation needed tag was deleted from the Forge section. I still take the position that the claim that The Forge is "one of the most influential" communities needs a citation from outside The Forge; I am NOT disputing the claim. I am trying to edit this article to make it more in line with Wikipedia style guidelines. Please, if anyone has a reference/citation add it. Until then, I'm just going to remove the unsupported claim because it sounds like editorial opinion rather than consensus or encyclopedic fact. Vampyrecat (talk) 03:47, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Counterexample: GURPS
"Varying definitions require that commercial, design, or conceptual elements of the game stay under the control of the creator, or that the game should just be produced outside of a corporate environment." I note that GURPS was designed by Steve Jackson, is entirely owned by Steve Jackson (since SJGames is privately-owned by SJ), and Steve Jackson reads and approves every GURPS book before publication. Further, SJGames, while incorporated, is not what one pictures as a traditional corporate environment. Further further, many GURPS products are published as PDFs, straight to the consumer. By many definitions, GURPS would therefore be an indie RPG. However, those who self-identify as indie RPG creators would never call it that. 38.111.35.2 (talk) 21:45, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Merge with Indie game
Why is this not merged with Indie game? There is no reason for particular genre to have its own page, now is there? Anon 77.254.16.61 (talk) 21:05, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Indie game is article about video games, this one is about table top. L-Zwei (talk) 04:26, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Restoring deleted articles
Hello and welcome to newer editors User:ElfEsteem, User:Nodicenomasters, User:Allcatsarebabes, and anyone else who has been working on Indie RPG articles. :) I'm glad to see you working on existing articles and creating new ones, and I hope you keep doing that. One area that I personally take pride in, is getting articles restored that should not have been deleted in the first place. In fact, I maintain User:BOZ/Games deletions for the purpose of finding and tracking all deleted tabletop games articles. If you have any sources that you think could get any of these restored or rebuilt (or anything else on my list!), let me know what you think!:


 * Bliss Stage (CSD) - indie RPG published in 2007
 * Capes (role-playing game) AFD - indie superhero game published in 2005
 * Event (game) (abandoned draft) - indie RPG published in 2018
 * It Was a Mutual Decision AFD (redirected) - indie RPG published in 2006
 * Nicotine Girls AFD (redirected) - indie RPG by Paul Czege published in 2002
 * Paladin (role-playing game) (PROD) - indie RPG published in 2002
 * S/lay w/Me AFD (redirected) - indie RPG published in 2009
 * The Mountain Witch AFD (redirected) - indie RPG published in 2005
 * The Pool (game) (PROD) - independent RPG system published in 2001
 * Adept Press AFD - indie RPG publisher
 * CRN Games AFD - indie RPG company
 * Rookie Jet Studio (abandoned draft) - Cincinnati, Ohio small publisher of indie role-playing games
 * Wild Heaven Productions (CSD) - independent publisher

If you've got nothing right now, don't worry about it, hopefully we find something eventually! BOZ (talk) 01:23, 5 April 2023 (UTC)


 * It's hard to find reputable news articles from before Polygon, Vox Media, and Kotaku started covering tabletop. Occasionally Rock Paper Shotgun or one of the Eurogamer sites has something, but everybody was mostly covering video games until around 2015. And Dicebreaker didn't even exist until a few years ago. ElfEsteem (talk) 02:35, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I understand. But if you do come across anything useful, let me know. :) BOZ (talk) 16:53, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * For most of them I don't have anything, but for The Mountain Witch the influence of this game is established in Designers & Dragons, Vol. 4, in relation to the work of both Vincent Baker (p. 183) and Jason Morningstar (p. 290). The reference to the game in this scholarly article also contributes to notability IMO, and the Dragons in the Stacks reference is also RS. And while it doesn't necessarily count for Notability, the Flames Rising review is good for article content (the content of the deleted article having been a likely contributor to the AfD result). Newimpartial (talk) 19:22, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Would you like to work on this one? I can move it to Draft space and then we can put it through AFC when you think it's ready. BOZ (talk) 14:23, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Sure. :). Newimpartial (talk) 14:36, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You've got it, Draft:The Mountain Witch is now a reality. :) BOZ (talk) 17:59, 6 April 2023 (UTC)