Talk:Indogermanisches etymologisches Wörterbuch

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Added the comment:

It is now rather outdated, but there exists no more modern and updated etymological dictionary of the indo-european language, so it is still of interest to scholars. Do you think this is NPOV? Maybe it needs to be fact-checked as well as de-stubbed. I read that comments on some pages. Pokorny was supposed to be quite lax in his research of both the regular sound shifts and meanings of words. Anyway, it was not my own POV, I just stole it from some page, from an interview with Don Ringe... http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/Work/ringe.html

"PS And you think the hard core is missing in Nostratic?

DR I think that the hard core is so small that it could be the result of chance. For example, if you take a look through the comparative dictionary of Illich-Svitych, you will discover that he does not really work with exceptionless sound changes. The thing is really quite a bit worse than Pokorny's Indoeuropean dictionary, and Pokorny is regarded as disgracefully lax by indoeuropeanists, terrible in fact, bad by our standards.

PS But the 2000 or so items in Pokorny are not all of the hard core you are talking about.

DR Only a tiny fraction are, maybe only 10%, but that's still rather a lot. I didn't find such a hard core in Illich-Svitych, I've been through it and I don't find it there. That's really what I'm talking about. It is possible to get some kind of measure of what the range of chance is and I'm working on that, and I've published a number of things along those lines, and I'm still trying to improve the mathematics, and improve the application of the mathematics to data, to come up with a set of guidelines that will work across the board, so we can sit down and apply the guidelines and come up with a good estimate at the other end. The problem is that everything depends upon the individual sounds. It turns out that the common sounds in any language are going to match the common sounds in any other language pretty often, so you have to sit down and work out the incidence of every phoneme in each language before you start. It's labour intensive and there's no way around it. "


 * I corrected article by adding mention of Gerhard Köbler's Indogermanisches Wörterbuch that supersedes Pokorny's Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch by adding PIE grammar and some more PIE words beyond Pokorny's vocabulary. Wikinger 14:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

word file link

 * Unicode version (Microsoft Word format, partially translated to English, with comments added; homepage)

Added the download:

I added a link to Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch which is in Word 2000 format. Really it is IEW, despite of weird filename of ZIP and DOC file of IEW inside ZIP. But site hosting IEW has bandwidth limits. Due to this, I advise let's someone make mirror of this Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch file and will add link to it in article. For impatient, there is download advise: If download doesn't work, please right click link, then copy and paste link to new empty browser window, and then press enter. Sometimes this site doesn't work due to exceeding bandwidth limits, but while bandwidth limits are kept, it works fine.

Why on earth would you want a Word version of the file? It would be much more useful to just have an UTF-8 encoded textfile of all lemmata combined. If the book was out of copyright, we could do that on wikisource, but as it is, the download is actually illegal. dab (&#5839;) 11:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I've looked at the file; it is not the "original" IEW, it is partly translated into English (machine translation?? e.g.lit. rė́žiu, rė́žti `cut, clip, ritzen, rend, notch, furchen' (also rė́žau, rė́žyti; in addition rė̃žis m. ` incision, Ritze, Ackerstreifen')), and contains additional notes and hypotheses. This should be noted in the link. It would be more useful to have the actual original IEW for download, too, and the author of the 'annotated' version should be noted. Also, converting to .odt, the 13M .doc file was reduced to 2M. dab (&#5839;) 11:42, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

As Indoeuropeanist George Starostin officially wrote this: (at beginning inside IEW file)

--QUOTE BEGIN--

The database represents the updated text of J. Pokorny's "Indogermanisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch", scanned and recognized by George Starostin (Moscow), who has also added the meanings. The database was further refurnished and corrected by A. Lubotsky. Pokorny's text is given practically unchanged (only a few obvious typos were corrected), except for some rearrangement of the material. The numbers in the lemmata are given after the root (e.g. Pokorny's 1. bher- appears as bher-1) because automatic alphabetization would otherwise too much affect the order of the lemmata.

--QUOTE END--

and the same contents are online in Leiden IEED, (click VIEW after entering) this was not done illegally, but officially by someone who makes replacement to IEW. Additionally, all IEW entries are online in various sites, e.g. here (lemmas only) and here (lemmas + dictionaries from PIE into IE languages).

I realize the database has been online for some time. That's strictly speaking still illegal, because the copyright holder is the publisher (Francke?) or Pokorny's heirs. I have no problem with that, I am simply saying we cannot host it at wikisource. Now, the database at Leiden is the actual original version, with an added field of English meanings. Your file is a partial translation, see the quote above, and such a horrible translation (cut, clip, ritzen, rend, notch, furchen)that I suspect somebody has run it through a machine translation. I think it is misleading to link to this file as the "IEW". dab (&#5839;) 13:35, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

This somebody was Indoeuropeanist George Starostin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.5.63.39 (talk • contribs)

I have had a closer look at the file, and the machine translation makes it almost unusable. I can believe you that Starostin added the commentary, but I seriously doubt that he ran the file through a German-English machine translation. In any case, the result is so far removed from Pokorny's text that we cannot link it as an "online edition". dab (&#5839;) 11:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Uncorrupted source of this Word file is available here in ie.exe and star4win.exe files. It contains full original German Pokorny text, outputtable to RTF by PRINT option of StarLing program. It seems, that George Starostin did all good, but someone else nicknamed "Protoillyrian" maliciously defaced Starostin's work. 83.11.48.86 (talk) 14:20, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Gerhard Köbler?
Is Gerhard Köbler's work really unique material? Isn't it only some slight update of Pokorny? 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (&lt; \) (2 /) /)/ * 15:31, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Gerhard Köbler's work introduces PIE grammar in Vorwort, thus his Indogermanisches Wörterbuch is first single work that permits to use PIE effectively, and in this way Indogermanisches Wörterbuch is unique. CBMIBM (talk) 10:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
 * it's useful, but it's self-published online. This is typical WP:EL, not WP:RS material. --dab (𒁳) 07:19, 30 September 2009 (UTC)