Talk:Indrani

Clarification of names
Sachi/ Indrani is the wife of Lord Indra. Indiri is a Matrika god who is a form of goddess Parvati/Shakti. Parvati in the form of Indiri gives Shakti/Power to Lord Indra just like her other forms Brahmani, Vaishnavi, Maheswari, Kaumari, Chamunda, Varahi, and Narasimhi does. Coolwikicool (talk) 11:41, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Please provide citation for your claim. ShotgunMavericks (talk) 21:12, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Shachi, a Matrika?
Are Indrani (wife of Indra) and Indrani (Matrika) the same, and if different, then did Sachi manifest as that Matrika. .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 07:48, 20 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Same. For a reliable source, see Lochtefeld's Illustrated Encyclopedia of Hinduism. Indrani is the most common name in early and later Hindu texts, and in WP:RS. Both on its own and as one of the Saptamatrikas. The word Indrani appears, for example, in 10.86.11 and 10.86.12 in the Rigveda (इन्द्राणीमासु नारिषु सुभगामहमश्रवम्...) within the context of being Indra's wife. Indrani is also in pretty much every Purana. The texts on Saptamatrikas mention Indrani though her position in the sequence, or in some cases the number of mothers – 7 or 8 or 9 – is different. Shachi is a synonym, but uncommon (for example, is mentioned in the Book 3 of the Mahabharata, where mini version of the Ramayana is included). Given the usage, Indrani should be the title of this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 10:20, 20 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much ma'am, but I am not sure about the title change as there are sources mentioning his wife as Shachi. .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 11:05, 20 February 2021 (UTC)


 * If the Indranis are the same then why isn't Brahmani=Saravati, Vaishnavi=Lakshmi, Varahi=Bhumi, etc. .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 11:59, 20 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree with Ms Sarah Welch, the article title should be Indrani, the popular name for the wife of Indra. However, as I understand it, Matrikas who look like the gods (whose shaktis they are), are not same as their consorts, who have the same or similar names. Indrani the matrika (the Shakta/ Tantric goddess) has a thousand eyes like Indra, holds the vajra, may be red-coloured like him, has 4-6 arms and emerges from Indra or Mahadevi. She is either combating demons in folio of the Devi Mahatmya or in sculpture, can be seen with a child and other matrikas as a group. Indrani, the wife of Indra is daughter of Puloma, is generally 2 armed, holds a flower and is seen generally with Indra. For Varaha, Bhumi is depicted as human woman and is called Varāhī (वराही); while the matrika who is boar-faced like Varaha is Vārāhī (वाराही). IMO, we should a different article for Indrani, the matrika. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 12:45, 20 February 2021 (UTC)


 * one article can be Shachi and another Indrani (Matrika). However it seems that both are minor goddesses and can be distinguished in this article's section 'matrika' .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 13:08, 20 February 2021 (UTC)


 * User:245CMR both are separate entities, as such should have separate articles to avoid confusion. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 13:21, 20 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Ok but for this we need a source clearly distinguishing these goddesses. The sources which I have gathered for Shachi don't mention the Matrika and the Matrika sources don't mention Shachi. .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 13:26, 20 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Study the scholarly sources please. I have given one already, Lochtefeld above. His article on Indrani is long, and on p. 617 he has one article under "Shachi" too where he redirects it to Indrani, by merely stating "Shachi In Hindu mythology, the wife of the god Indra, also known as Indrani. See Indrani.". Kinsley on p. 17, says "Indrani is mentioned [in Vedic literature] far more often than any other goddess of this type, but even so it is clear that she is greatly overshadowed by her husband, Indra. [...]. She is also called by the name Śaći (Shachi), which denotes power and suggests the later idea of sakti, the feminine, personified might of the gods of later Hindu mythology." Note that Kinsley is not using Saci as primary term, with "also known as Indrani". Dalal too, on p. 164, writes "Indra is married to Indrani, who is known as Shachi and Pulomaja". Dalal on p. 165–166 has an article on Indrani, who he writes is also known as "Shachi, Pulomaja, Shakrani, Mahendrani and Paulomi". So on. The WP:RS are clearly and repeatedly using the word Indrani, or Indrani as the article title. We should too. Redtigerxyz mentions 1000 eyes, but that is what Canto 288, section 1 of Mahabharata Book 3 (see William Johnson's translation, p. 121) says for Indra through an allusion to Shachi (the thousand-eyed husband of Shachi). Redtigerxyz makes a good point on Saptamatrikas. That topic is complicated, and we have a decent article on Matrikas (but there are some issues there that need rewording / clean up). Matrikas are the Shakti form, energy/power projected. This article isn't about Matrikas though. It should largely be about Indrani/Shachi/a very prominent Vedic goddess whose prominence fades with the centuries. Yes, a section should mention that Indrani is also one of the Shakti matrikas, with clarifications Redtigerxyz mentions. On your question, 245CMR, about why isn't Brahmani=Saravati etc. Well it is! (in some texts, within the context Redtigerxyz notes above); See p. 79 for example of Dalal source cited in this article, where Dalal writes, "(...) Sarasvati, also known as Shatarupa, Brahmi, Brahmani, Savitri or Gayatri (...)". Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:59, 20 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for the sources but here, I will use Shachi to avoid confusion. Matrika topic is very complicated as Brahmani is four faced, warrior, yellow complexioned, while Sarasvati is white, harmonic and singled headed. As has quoted that Varahi is boar faced while Bhumi is human. (These goddesses share very less similarities, still they are considered to be one) As we are unable to find sources which are clearly stating them as the same or different, we should just mention the Matrika Indrani in this Sachi article.  .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 15:50, 20 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Mentioning the matrika in this article, would be the right approach. Indrani and other goddess can be and are represented in different shapes, with different attributes and various forms/moods/faces (e.g. the dancing Indrani artwork found in Kota, compare that to the Gupta era Indrani sculpture from Bihar and elsewhere. As another example, I have seen Varahi depicted without a boar face, but with boar vahana below her). There is no absolute consistency in iconography of Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism (or other major religions), nor is consistency required. The goddesses, including the matrika forms, are abstract ideas and concepts. Their visual expression varies regionally and by century/artists. A good summary would include and reflect this diversity, per the scholarly sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:33, 20 February 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree with Ms Sarah Welch, but what about the infobox image, should we use the subordinate Shachi (current one) or a more independent Indrani (I don't think it would be better as independent ones mainly represent the Matrika.) .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 17:02, 20 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Added Indrani, part of Indra-Indrani set. The matrika should not be in the lead. Redtigerxyz  Talk 05:56, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, but pardon me as I am unable to understand the second sentence - Should I remove the info of the Matrika? .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 06:23, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Copy editing
Hello, sorry for disturbing you, but I want to discuss some things. In the Vedic texts, "Indrani" is the name used for this goddess. (The epics primarily use the name Shachi) You may see this discussion, where a user suggested changing this article's name to Indrani. Please share your opinion. . 245CMR . •👥📜 04:10, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Or should we elaborate like this "Shachi first appears in the..........where she is invoked with the name Indrani...." . 245CMR . •👥📜 04:19, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for letting me know; I wasn't fully aware of this. I agree that the article should be renamed 'Indrani' since it is far more common (and also mention that she is also known as 'Shachi', which is primarily used in the epics), but for now I've just updated the Vedic section so that it refers to her as 'Indrani' rather than 'Shachi'. --audreyw5678 (talk) 06:20, 27 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much. . 245CMR . •👥📜 06:22, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Should we keep "Shachi" in the Shachi or change it to Indrani? (It is very confusing since the common name is Indrani, but the epics primarily mention her as Shachi) . 245CMR . •👥📜 06:29, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 27 May 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved/ This appears to be something where RM is unnecessary. Closing as moved based on the apparent reasons satisfying COMMONNAME. ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  01:00, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Shachi → Indrani –WP:common name. Admins please move this as per the following suggestions: "Indrani is the most common name in early and later Hindu texts, and in WP:RS. Both on its own and as one of the Saptamatrikas. The word Indrani appears, for example, in 10.86.11 and 10.86.12 in the Rigveda (इन्द्राणीमासु नारिषु सुभगामहमश्रवम्...) within the context of being Indra's wife. Indrani is also in pretty much every Purana. The texts on Saptamatrikas mention Indrani though her position in the sequence, or in some cases the number of mothers – 7 or 8 or 9 – is different. Shachi is a synonym, but uncommon (for example, is mentioned in the Book 3 of the Mahabharata, where mini version of the Ramayana is included). Given the usage, Indrani should be the title of this article. [............]Study the scholarly sources please. I have given one already, Lochtefeld above. His article on Indrani is long, and on p. 617 he has one article under "Shachi" too where he redirects it to Indrani, by merely stating "Shachi In Hindu mythology, the wife of the god Indra, also known as Indrani. See Indrani.". Kinsley on p. 17, says "Indrani is mentioned [in Vedic literature] far more often than any other goddess of this type, but even so it is clear that she is greatly overshadowed by her husband, Indra. [...]. She is also called by the name Śaći (Shachi), which denotes power and suggests the later idea of sakti, the feminine, personified might of the gods of later Hindu mythology." Note that Kinsley is not using Saci as primary term, with "also known as Indrani". Dalal too, on p. 164, writes "Indra is married to Indrani, who is known as Shachi and Pulomaja". Dalal on p. 165–166 has an article on Indrani, who he writes is also known as "Shachi, Pulomaja, Shakrani, Mahendrani and Paulomi". So on. The WP:RS are clearly and repeatedly using the word Indrani, or Indrani as the article title. We should too. Redtigerxyz mentions 1000 eyes, but that is what Canto 288, section 1 of Mahabharata Book 3 (see William Johnson's translation, p. 121) says for Indra through an allusion to Shachi (the thousand-eyed husband of Shachi)."

- User:Ms Sarah Welch (originally answered on Talk:Shachi)

"I agree with Ms Sarah Welch, the article title should be Indrani, the popular name for the wife of Indra."

- User:Redtigerxyz (originally answered on Talk:Shachi)

"I agree that the article should be renamed 'Indrani' since it is far more common (and also mention that she is also known as 'Shachi', which is primarily used in the epics)[.....]"

- User:Audreyw5678 (originally answered on Talk:Shachi

. 245CMR . •👥📜 06:31, 27 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Can you please check this move request. This article was undergoing ce and needs to be moved asap to continue ce. . 245CMR . •👥📜 05:24, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It would be better to list the move on WP:RM/T instead if there is already a consensus. ~  (t, e &#124; c, l) 15:58, 29 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Ok, thanks for your suggestions . 245CMR . •👥📜 17:49, 29 May 2021 (UTC)