Talk:Indrani Pal-Chaudhuri

Why is this article being refilled with spam?
I quote, pretty much at random:


 *  They received world-wide recognition for their covers for Beyoncé's solo debut Dangerously in Love, Mariah Carey's Emancipation of Mimi and Mary J. Blige's The Breakthrough 

"They" here means Klinko and Indrani.

This one sentence says or implies:
 * 1) Klinko and Indrani created covers for three albums
 * 2) Klinko and Indrani received worldwide recognition for this creation of covers for three albums
 * 3) "Mary J. Blige Biography" at rollingstone.com is the source of the claim for the above

Unsurprisingly, "Mary J. Blige Biography" is instead about Mary J. Blige and says nothing of the sort. Within that cited web page, the string "indrani" appears in the caption to one photo, that's all.

Look at the history of this article and you'll see a lot of earlier edits in which dubious factoids and bogus sourcing were painstakingly removed (with informative edit summaries). Now the same or similar junk is being put back. Why? -- Hoary (talk) 00:33, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Because two weeks have gone by with no response either to this or to my question on the talk page of the one user who made all these changes, I've reverted the lot.

Of course I'd be delighted if some editor were to make careful additions to this article of carefully and honestly sourced material. Informative edit summaries for such edits would be welcome too. -- Hoary (talk) 01:49, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Beast, and a 14-year-old intern
A lot of this is sourced to one piece in The Daily Beast. The latter is viewed without much enthusiasm at WP:RS/N: There's a lot in the one piece, but (as of course is usual in journalism, let alone gossipy websites), it's not clear where much of it is from. Could the material not attached to "Indrani says" be what she also said, or from background material supplied by her, or perhaps just recycled from Wikipedia?
 * Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_39
 * Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_93

I note this remarkable trio of sentences:

"When Indrani went to interview for an internship at a Toronto photo studio, the photographers decided she should be in front of the camera, not behind it. They recommended that she try modeling. She signed up with a modeling agency, and at age 14, found herself doing photo shoots around the world for magazines such as Glamour and Elle, and ad campaigns for companies including Benetton and Nescafé."

So when she was 14 (or younger), she went to interview for an internship at a Toronto photo studio. This would be remarkable, if true. But the writer doesn't comment on it (e.g. saying that our biographee was already a precocious photographer). So it looks screwy (to me), and the whole article starts to lose credibility. Or is my reaction unreasonable? -- Hoary (talk) 01:11, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

PS In the penultimate sentence, by "the whole article" I mean "the whole 'Beast' article", not "the whole Wikipedia article". -- Hoary (talk) 10:39, 6 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The Hollywood Reporter http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hollywood-photographers-markusindrani-release-icons-384363 states "Indrani Pal-Chaudhuri, who grew up in India, found her passion in childhood" and interviews Indrani who states "At 14, I sought to assist a photographer who suggested I model instead, which was indeed an extraordinary way to learn from the top artists and directors around the world." Furthermore, the book "ICONS: The Celebrity Exposures of Markus + Indrani," states tjat Indrani was a photographer since childhood, so this is no reason to question this writer's credibility, in my opinion. Karimkennedy (talk) 20:44, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Lincoln Center quote
The following has been added, removed, added, and removed.

The Lincoln Center website describes their work as: "Markus + Indrani, globally esteemed celebrity and fashion photography and director duo who have captured many of today's most provocative pop culture legends...Glamorous, dynamic and teetering on the verge of reality and fantasy, the duo's ability to stand at the cross roads of pop culture and critical acclaim has made their work a salient point in the quickly evolving digital, cluttered media markets worldwide."

The user adding it has never explained it.

The user subtracting it has written:
 * 1) Removed quote that doesn't add any worthwhile description + removed quote from a venue that has hosted her, so is inappropriate as has a vested interest
 * 2) As I pointed out, the Lincoln Centre is not a reliable source

I think I read that entrance was free. If so, the Lincoln Center (LC) might not have gained even if attendance had jumped tenfold thanks to this awestruck write-up. But even if it had charged and might have gained, it would seem a decent source to me.

It's true that WP:V says:


 * Questionable sources are those that have a poor reputation for checking the facts, lack meaningful editorial oversight, or have an apparent conflict of interest.

However, any conflict of interest here would only be fleeting. The LC doesn't seem to have had any particular [pecuniary] interest in enthusing over these two; it could just as well have plucked other photographers. And if Klinko & Indrani are soon forgotten, this won't harm the LC, which will have plenty of other photographers among whom to choose.

All in all I don't think it's improper to cite or even quote this.

(Propriety aside, I find it risible, with gush such as today's most provocative pop culture legends. But it seems that this kind of prose is endemic in talk about fashion.) -- Hoary (talk) 13:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The gush, designed to inflate the subject in order to promote them visiting their venue (whether paying money to do so or not) is what convinced me such sources are not reliable. I decided this in my Forced Entertainment research. But I'll take your opinion as being the right and proper way Hoary. If I see gushiness, then I'm distrustful, but from what you've said I should be more cautious; I think you're more level headed than I, more able to take things as they are rather than push against them, which is an enviable skill for a Wikipedian. -Lopifalko (talk) 14:09, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, Lopifalko, thank you for the kind words. Yes indeed, wisdom, serenity and all the other stuff (hair loss, incontinence) should come with hoariness; but do they? I'm not so sure. Oh, ah, excuse me a moment while I fetch a mop and some spare clothes. Where was I? Yes! In my Wikipedia-youth I pushed against many things, but my success rate wasn't so high. &para; Iconically, provocatively and legendarily yours (but already sadly contemplating life without Simon Hoggart) -- Hoary (talk) 14:23, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * An epitaph for you, perhaps: "In my youth I pushed against many things, but my success rate wasn't so high". And now you see the wood for the trees. -Lopifalko (talk)

Template removal
In this edit, User:Karimkennedy removed and  (both recently added or readded by User:Mendaliv), without any edit summary. Any comment, Karimkennedy? -- Hoary (talk) 13:12, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Restored and warned Karimkennedy. Thanks for the notification. This article is a massive puff piece and really needs cleaning up. —/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 22:06, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Klinko removal?
Here's what the article says about the Bowie album Heathen:


 * David Bowie was the mentor who launched her careers as both photographer and director, commissioning her first celebrity portrait for his album cover Heathen while she was a student at Princeton, [...]


 * David Bowie was the first artist to commission her work, for the cover of his album Heathen [...]

Here's what davidbowie.com has to say (on this page):


 * The cover of the album, due for release on ISO/Columbia Records on June 10th, will feature a startling picture of Bowie by noted photographer Markus Klinko and his partner Indrani. [...] Post-production work on the image's eyes was then carried out by photographer Markus Klinko's partner and computer whiz, Indrani.

This sounds to me as if Klinko was the photographer and Indrani an assistant. Perhaps that's not so, and instead they did it together. What's extraordinarily hard to believe is that Indrani did it without Klinko. Why is there no mention of Klinko, Karimkennedy? -- Hoary (talk) 06:44, 1 February 2016 (UTC)


 * No response from Karimkennedy, so I fixed this. -- Hoary (talk) 12:32, 7 February 2016 (UTC)


 * There are numerous articles and TV interviews specifying that Markus Klinko and Indrani were photography partners and Indrani was not his assistant. According to all these they began photography together and were known as famous photography partners:

1. The aforementioned David Bowie website http://www.davidbowie.com/news/markus-and-indrani-icons-book-48526 clearly states: "Photographers to the stars, Markus Klinko and Indrani, have collected together some of their best work for the recently published ICONS book... Markus and Indrani made the beautiful photographic images of David Bowie for 2002's Heathen cover and associated releases, working alongside Jonathan Barnbrook's innovative and stylish design creations to produce a brilliant campaign for the album."

2. The retrospective book of their work titled "ICONS by Markus + Indrani" Running Press © 2012, states on the cover: "Markus and Indrani, the leading duo of celebrity and fashion photography, have produced album covers for Beyonce, Mariah Carey, and David Bowie..." The book describes in detail how they worked together as creative partners from the beginning of their professional photography careers, and includes all the Bowie images by both photographers.

3. Elle.com "Photography duo Markus Klinko and Indrani are marking their 18th year as a visionary tour de force with the release of their first coffee table book, Icons: The Celebrity Exposures of Markus and Indrani, available November 13. http://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/news/a22349/markus-klinko-indrani-on-their-book-icons/ In Style http://www.instyle.com/news/inside-new-icons-book-beyonc-lady-gaga-and-more "The photography team of Markus Klinko and Indrani Pal-Chaudhuri know what it takes to make an icon--so they rounded up a retrospective of their most memorable images and put them in their new book "Icons..." Hollywood Reporter http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hollywood-photographers-markusindrani-release-icons-384363

4. http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/iconic-celebrity-photos-captured-by-duo/15/ "Iconic celebrity photos captured by duo" includes these Bowie photos.

5. http://www.popphoto.com/how-to/2009/12/behind-scenes-double-exposure

6. The reputable German news organization 20 Minuten article on Bowie's death asks Indrani specifically about "Your discovery is none other than David Bowie...He...was her mentor." Indrani replies : "He is responsible for ensuring that I was a photographer...He launched my career" http://www.20min.ch/people/international/story/-Ich-werde-seine-Anrufe-sehr-vermissen--18680162 Karimkennedy (talk) 20:06, 11 April 2016 (UTC) Karimkennedy (talk) 20:07, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Fictions
The article tells us:


 *  Markus and Indrani created award-winning covers for Beyoncé's solo debut Dangerously in Love, Mariah Carey's Emancipation of Mimi and Mary J. Blige's The Breakthrough among others. 

The source this cites doesn't even mention The Breakthrough. Of the other two, it says that:


 * From there, he went on to create some of the most iconic album covers of his time, including Beyonce's Dangerously in Love, and Mariah Carey's The Emancipation of Mimi.

Emphasis added. Yes, the source cited says that Klinko created them.

Again, the Wikipedia article claims that Klinko and Indrani "created award-winning covers" for these three, sourcing this to a page at artphotoexpo.com. The latter page doesn't include the string "prize". As for the string "award", it appears once, within:


 * Markus Klinko is an award-winning, international fashion/celebrity photographer and director, [...]

No mention there of what Klinko won the awards for.

How many other fictions does this Wikipedia article present? -- Hoary (talk) 13:30, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Systematic bias?
Try this:


 * In 2013 the Lincoln Center presented a week-long 30-piece public art exhibition of her work Icons, to accompany the release of the photobook, Icons: The celebrity exposures of Markus and Indrani, published by Perseus Press. 

Emphasis added. The cited source makes it very clear that this was not just her work but instead Klinko's and her work.

Increasingly, I get the impression that this Wikipedia article is written to aggrandize Pal-Chaudhuri at the expense of Klinko. Do you get the same impression, Karimkennedy and Mendaliv? -- Hoary (talk) 09:55, 6 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Oh yes, I absolutely agree that this article comes off as promotional and aggrandizing. And based on your research, it sounds like there might be some misstating of what's in the sources. So some cleanup is definitely in order. —/M endaliv /2¢/Δ's/ 02:32, 7 February 2016 (UTC)


 * I've just now fixed this particular distortion; but yes, a lot more work needs to be done. (Simply, I think every assertion has to be checked against its purported source. Does the source actually say what the article implies that it says? We already know that some do not.) -- Hoary (talk) 12:35, 7 February 2016 (UTC)


 * I've corrected the omissions of Klinko in this article. Now the Klinko wikipedia page needs to be updated to include Indrani, as his page appears written to aggrandize Klinko at the expense of Indrani. The two were photography partners and did all their early work as equal partners, according to my research and the book they co-authored on their work together, ICONS by Markus + Indrani (Running Press) Karimkennedy (talk) 20:37, 11 April 2016 (UTC)