Talk:Industrial and Commercial Bank of China/Archive 1

Adding Abbreviations and correcting spelling...
Changed instances of "Renminbi" to "Chinese RMB" and otherwise corrected a few spelling errors I've seen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.229.137.237 (talk) 13:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Non-performing Loans
The statistic from China are highly not trustworthy, and the office of statistic is not independent... he follows the order of the government, who often has manipulated the figure (for example they just increase the total GDP by around 20%, and a few years ago they publish the the figure of the last year growth the first January... which is technically impossible, and their is officially only less than 30 millions poor... against a few hundred millions according to international statistics).
 * You misunderstand. It is true that GDP estimate measuring model in China is not accurate, often over-estimating at the trough, but under-estimating at the crest. In December 2005, the Chinese statistics bureau decided to increase its estimate of GDP upwards by 20% not because they were told by the government to do so but rather because they had just conducted a thorough 1-year economic census in order to make its data more accurate. They found that they had been underestimating the importance of the service sector and thus revised it upwards 20%. This is not the first time a country had done such upward revision. Just a few weeks ago, for example, Greece had just revised its GDP estimate upwards by some 50%. As for the number of poors in China, official Chinese statistics suggest only 30 million or so Chinese lived under "abject poverty". While international organizations such as the United Nations, World Bank, or others often claimed 150 million or so Chinese lived in "abject poverty". The discrepancy in the numbers lie on the different criteria used in each calculation. The UN or the international standard definition of "abject poverty" is taken to be US$1 per day. The Chinese govt however defines it as RMB 5 (US$0.65) per day. As for the speed to which certain statistics are announced in China (average 2-3 weeks) compared to other developed countries (average 4 weeks), well, I can only say that that's curiously fast but not a really strong argument for doubt. I cannot remember your example where you said that the Chinese govt announced its GDP growth for the last year on the first January. The Chinese govt usually publishes its estimate on the 1st January based on November projections but the real data does not come until about 2-3 weeks later. Heilme 03:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I sense much anger in you. Care to provide proof?  Or should we take your words unquestionably?  24.89.245.62 07:18, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

No need to enter to the details, it is not the subject but I propose to say: "according to the Chinese statistic, the non performing loan are 27% (due to the opacity of the banks and statistics, this figure may be underestimated) " something like that. Froggy helps ;-) 07:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

"and cash injections of US$15 billion in order to cover 15% of this figure." This is a little ambiguous. So did the bad debt percent go from 27% to 12%? or did it go from 27% to 22.95%? The article says the latter, but I feel like the author intended the former. Clarification maybe? if the former was meant, I suggest "bringing the bad loan percentage down to 12%" as absolutely unambiguous. 69.59.108.79 18:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * disambiguated. Check new version. --Heilme 04:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Stats
ICBC already published its 2006 (July 16, 2006) stats here: Can someone incorporate it into the statistics box on the front page? Thanks. Jsw663 16:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

horrible article
This article tells me almost nothing about the bank. I don't think an article should be made up of recent events. It should at least have a products section, a history section, and a recent events section. Griffinofwales (talk) 16:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

FUND MANAGER
Who is the fund manager of ICBC? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.172.1.2 (talk) 13:15, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20110521234112/http://edition.cnn.com/2006/BUSINESS/09/27/china.icbc.reut/index.html to http://edition.cnn.com/2006/BUSINESS/09/27/china.icbc.reut/index.html

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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070929061057/http://www.financialservicesdistribution.com/get.asp?script=article&ID=28963 to http://www.financialservicesdistribution.com/get.asp?script=article&ID=28963
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141028030027/http://www.icbc.com.cn/icbc/newsupdates/icbc%20news/icbcsetsupkuwaitbranch.htm to http://www.icbc.com.cn/icbc/newsupdates/icbc%20news/ICBCSetsupKuwaitBranch.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20061021131022/http://www.chinaonline.com/headlines/cs-protected/C05022403.htm to http://www.chinaonline.com/headlines/cs-protected/C05022403.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071007160230/http://www.adb.org/Documents/Reports/PSA/PRC/PRC_PSA.pdf to http://www.adb.org/Documents/Reports/PSA/PRC/PRC_PSA.pdf

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reason "$" change of 18:25, 6 February 2020
James Glassman (2019, February) - https://www.jpmorgan.com/commercial-banking/insights/global-role-us-dollar

Diametakomisi (talk) 18:29, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

copy (shown under this heading as article content) of Files of images removed 18:57, 6 February 2020
File:ICBCCanada350Hwy7-2.jpg|thumb|ICBC Canada

File:Torre Madero Office desde Dársena Norte.JPG|thumb|Torre Madero Office, the current ICBC headquarters in Buenos Aires

File:ICBC Branch in Kuala Lumpur.jpg|thumb|The ICBC branch in Kuala Lumpur

Diametakomisi (talk) 19:20, 6 February 2020 (UTC) (deleted active function to links Diametakomisi (talk) 20:47, 6 February 2020 (UTC))

Review of edits
19:03, 4 February 2020 Diametakomisi (talk) 22:50, 5 February 2020 (UTC) (contributed to view of categories prior to edit 22:59, 5 February 2020 (id=939352420) Diametakomisi (talk) 23:11, 5 February 2020 (UTC) - 23:05, 1 January 2020 (id=933590314) "Fixed link", is actually change to number of hyperlink functions active, reverted in the next edit Diametakomisi (talk) 23:11, 5 February 2020 (UTC) - 08:33, 28 July 2019 id=908220047 (editorial comment - "oddly" isn't necessarily true, the fact of "missing" causes the editor to think "oddly", missing is, just not included by any editor at the time, (is an expression of the editors personal opinion, not a reflection of wikipedia editorial strategy or activity with regards to this article)

"In 2016 Europol informed that Spain arrested six executives of the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, for facilitating a Chinese money-laundering network that sold its services to Spanish and Chinese criminal syndicates in Europe." wikipedia

source: Erika Kinetz http://www.timesofisrael.com/from-israel-to-colombia-whos-laundering-money-in-china/

copy of relevant

"In February, Spain (a nation cannot make an arrest, comment by Diametakomisi) arrested six executives from China’s largest bank, the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, accusing them of facilitating a Chinese money-laundering network that sold its services to Spanish and Chinese criminal syndicates in Europe, according to Europol, which also is investigating the network’s links to France, Germany and Lithuania.

Chinese authorities have said the state-run bank will cooperate with the investigation and that they have no reason to believe the bank was breaking the law."

comment by Diametakomisi: the source is Europol, is grammatically non correction

"Controversies" is a box-word that contains the editors addition, but: "no reason to believe the bank was breaking the law"

search criteria "Controversies" return Oxford University Press > Dictionaries shows "prolonged public disagreement or heated discussion" et al (on the 1st page) including wikipedia corroborated: "..is a state of prolonged public dispute or debate.."

Diametakomisi (talk) 23:33, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

your position stifles the building of consensus (WP:CON > WP:PILLARS > WP:5P4 <) Diametakomisi (talk) 23:36, 5 February 2020 (UTC) (added 2 intra-wikipedia hyperlinks after signature, added relevant intra after signature)


 * Nope, you seem picking up junk to "discuss". You listed two edits that no need to discuss: Special:Diff/939159713 is a half-junk edit that add unnecessary "30em" para to the reflist, which that is the default value of that template that removed by bot some time ago and no need to reintroduce it. While Special:Diff/933590314, already reverted by me on the same day ONE MONTH AGO, is a newbie that spammed blue link as overlink. Matthew hk (talk) 23:41, 5 February 2020 (UTC)


 * For the third edits: Special:Diff/908220047. Controversies also means a disagreement, often a public one, that involves different ideas or opinions about something, quarrel, the event/scandal is totally worth to use the section name "Controversies". Matthew hk (talk) 23:50, 5 February 2020 (UTC)


 * response to 23:41 - 23:44, 5 February 2020 id=939358102 is the change I made because of the 3rd review, try review you might like it - I think you are right/correct/true to state that listing the "junk" 1st is unnecessary, but 2nd review "Pakistan" et cetera is hyperlinked, "Madrid" & "Spain" isn't, but the 2nd reviewed editor hyperlinked "Madrid" and "Spain" - the reason why hyperlinking of some not others (although is overlink too yes), the 3rd review is possible though because isn't "junk", I think you agree (this edit save caused "edit conflict" notice @ save) Diametakomisi (talk) 23:54, 5 February 2020 (UTC)


 * response to 23:50 "a lot of disagreement or argument about something, usually because it affects or is important to many people" is the 1st given meaning ("C1") "a disagreement" isn't true (@ "C2") - the source doesn't show whether the executives disagreed with the arrest & associated charge, "the state-run bank will cooperate with the investigation"  (@ 23:33, 5 February 2020 (UTC)) doesn't indicate disagreement. Diametakomisi (talk) 00:01, 6 February 2020 (UTC) (correction of typo after signature Diametakomisi (talk) 00:09, 6 February 2020 (UTC))
 * there isn't any proof of the number of people being "many" to the arrest "(usually because it affects or is important) to many people" Diametakomisi (talk) 00:01, 6 February 2020 (UTC)


 * The content is shown under "Controversies, because the source doesn't show the outcome of the arrest, if the outcome was no conviction, then there isn't any controversy "accusing them" isn't a conviction Diametakomisi (talk) 00:04, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

It seem you are the problematic editor: Special:Diff/939361161. The news article is not written by Europol and it is not a valid value for the parameter author (or the pair last, first) and it may borderline qualified to mention using others. Please read the doc of the function of Template:cite news. Matthew hk (talk) 00:18, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
 * "In February, Spain arrested six executives ..., according to Europol, ..."
 * 1st source is Europol, 2nd source is Kinetz
 * "From Israel to Colombia, who’s laundering money in China criminal networks, including Israeli ones, increasingly turn to Chinese financial institutions to hide ill-gotten funds by Erika Kinetz" 29 March 2016"
 * c.f "17 February", Kinetz wasn't there during February, Europol & the Spanish Civil Guardia were there
 * WP:CS
 * "A citation, also called a reference,[note 1] uniquely identifies a source of information, e.g.:

"Ritter, R. M. (2003). The Oxford Style Manual. Oxford University Press. p. 1. ISBN 978-0-19 860564-5.""


 * Europol > Kinetz > Matthew hk / Diametakomisi > wikipedia readers & other wikipedia user editors
 * citing Kinetz (March) does not negate Europol (February) > "during 17th of February"
 * think like this -> "00:57, 6 February 2020‎ Matthew hk 2005 event" Matthew hk is not the source, Kinetz is not the 1st source
 * Diametakomisi (talk) 16:56, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:V ".. other people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source.." < the source is "During 17th February" (Europol = February, Kinetz = March) = "a reliable source" = Europol
 * Diametakomisi (talk) 17:08, 6 February 2020 (UTC) (1 minor change after signature Diametakomisi (talk) 17:09, 6 February 2020 (UTC))
 * "From Israel to Colombia, who’s laundering money in China" & "In February, Spain arrested six executives from China’s largest bank, the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, accusing them of facilitating a Chinese money-laundering network that sold its services to Spanish and Chinese criminal syndicates in Europe, according to Europol, which also is investigating.." - the source states something in the title > who is laundering money, is not the same as, accusing & is investigating c.f. "Open & Closed investigation" - http://www.parliamentarycompliance.org.uk/transparency/Pages/open-and-closed-investigations.aspx
 * source: Kinetz = is, source: Europol = is investigating, Kinetz is similar to (if the falseness was intended or not...), or is, a lie not reliable Diametakomisi (talk) 17:20, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
 * see False > "Falsity or falsehood, in law, deceitfulness by one party that results in damage to another"
 * Diametakomisi (talk) 17:24, 6 February 2020 (UTC) (minor correction after signature Diametakomisi (talk) 17:25, 6 February 2020 (UTC))


 * (deletion of Kinetz because, @ 17:25 here) c.f (Don't lie) > "Defamation ...usually constitutes a tort or crime.." > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fame#Etymology > "renown" a state of being widely acclaimed and highly honored (source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/renown)
 * Diametakomisi (talk) 17:40, 6 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Don't lie is a wiki essay and NOT a wikipedia policy or guideline. Matthew hk (talk) 07:45, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

2016
"was investigated" @ http://es.chineseembassy.org/chn/zyxxx/t1341308.htm (linked in https://thediplomat.com/2016/02/5-arrested-in-raid-on-chinese-bank-in-spain/) Diametakomisi (talk) 00:51, 6 February 2020 (UTC) (added link after signature Diametakomisi (talk) 00:52, 6 February 2020 (UTC))

Don't "teach the controversy" Diametakomisi (talk) 17:29, 6 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Don't "teach the controversy" it is an wiki essay and NOT a guide. Matthew hk (talk) 07:45, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

ICBC purchases a further 5% in Standard Bank
My name is Michael Avery,

I am a financial journalist and would like to know who added that ICBC purchased a further 5% stake in Standard Bank in January 1953 . I have contacted Standard Bank's media relations department and they flatly deny this report.

Warm regards, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.209.197.76 (talk) 09:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * ICBC did acquired some stake of Standard Bank (or may be one of their division). It is the predecessor of "ICBC Standard Bank", a non wholly owned subsidiary of ICBC since February 2015 according to The Guardian. Matthew hk (talk) 10:03, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

(no title)
Also, what is up with putting the 2010 event on "Gibe III dam in Ethiopia" in the history section? That section is for big events like the IPO or merger activities. Not when special interest group "wrote them mails" because of project they didn't like. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yongke (talk • contribs) 08:20, 5 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Add a new title for you. It has no relation to the discussion thread regarding Standard Bank. And yes the layout of the article is a mess and you can just do it yourself to re-arrange it. Matthew hk (talk) 10:03, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

currently unused source
http://www.iberglobal.com/Archivos/inversiones_chinas_deloitte.pdf sourced using " "strategic investors"  US$3.7 billion provision to ICBC"

Diametakomisi (talk) 20:46, 6 February 2020 (UTC) (added criteria used to source Diametakomisi (talk) 20:49, 6 February 2020 (UTC))

http://www.icbcfs.com/

Diametakomisi (talk) 21:33, 8 February 2020 (UTC)