Talk:Industrial and multiphase power plugs and sockets/Archive 1

american stuff
i need an amercan to check the american stuff (i cleaned up the incomprehensible mess as best i could with info from the web but i may have made some stupid mistakes) Plugwash 02:38, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

pages needing attention
chameleon has added the pages needing attention banner. yet i can't find it on the page of pages needing attention. whats going on here? Plugwash 02:38, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

bs 546
theese plugs are neither industrial nor multiphase and so do not belong here Plugwash 02:38, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

NEMA 5-20, 5-30, 5-50, 6-15, 6-20, 6-30, and 6-50
theese are not multiphase and by the sounds of things are not industrial do they belong here (im british so i don't feel its my call to make) Plugwash 02:38, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What kind of plug is this?
I live in the United States, and this is the kind of plug my clothes dryer uses:



Since there's no picture on the main page, I was wondering what kind of plug it is. --Evice 01:54, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)


 * from http://www.stayonline.com/reference/nema_straight_blade.asp it looks like 7-15 or 7-20 and i STRONGLY suspect it is being misused (ie its not being used to supplly a 275V supplly like the plug type implies) but im not an expert on american plugs and sockets. Plugwash 13:40, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * looks more like a 10-30 to me (the diagrams on the page quoted above show receptacles so the top contact is mirror image from the photo) --Ali@gwc.org.uk 19:35, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * having looked again i tend to agree with you Ali. I didn't realise that with the split phase plugs the earthed versions varied in more ways than just the added pin. Plugwash 22:18, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Ah, yes. It appears that it is a 10-30 plug. --Evice 04:32, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)

dubious changes to NEMA 10-20, 10-30 and 10-50 section by evice
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Industrial_%26_multiphase_power_plugs_%26_sockets&diff=10016880&oldid=10016815 I belive this to be in error and have reverted it.

http://www.stayonline.com/reference/nema_straight_blade.asp groups the 10- series in the "3 pole 3 wire" section in a row labeled "125/250 Volt".

furthermore there is a seperate section for "250 Volt" under "2-Pole 3-Wire Grounding" (the nema 6- series)

from this i would deduce that the plug is (supposed to be) two hots and a neutral not two hots and an earth.

if you have information you feel is more authoritive stating otherwise then please post links/references.


 * Seems I am mistaken, it looks like grounding is different from most plugs (such as the ordinary 120v plug) - http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/wiring/msg0109563720469.html


 * Also, could you please start capitalizing? This is not a chat room. --&#603;v&#618;s 23:47, Feb 8, 2005 (UTC)

I had to turn off javascript to get to that page. but yes it seems to confirm what i thought. IE that the connector is two hots and a neutral. Plugwash 00:34, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

200A IEC 309
someone just added this. i'm not an expert but i've never heared of this before and would like to see a reference (preferablly one availible online) Plugwash 20:08, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Explanation the neons on the triplex outlets.
Possibly add how/why this is used/done. Seeing as the human eye can't really see 60hz flicker. --Sponge! 00:43, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, neon? Neon? In the article about power strips, where it talks about surge protection, it mentions indicator lights on power strips and calls them "neon." What's up with that? All my power strips have LEDs, and I can't believe without further explanation that any small indicator-type light would rely on neon... they require stepping up the voltage to significantly higher than 120 or 240 V from what I understand. Sharprs 22:22, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I have never seen a power strip use an LED indicator... possibly 120 V cannot cause a neon light to glow but 230 V certainly does. Step-up transformers are only required for long neon signs.
 * You claim all your power strips use LEDs. What exactly is it about the lights on your power strip that makes you think they are LEDs? Afaict small capsule neons are easy to make run directly on mains, its only the long neon tubes that need the high voltages. To get an LED and series resistor arrangement to work well directly off mains would require a series resistor with power ratings on the order of watts which would be both expensive and wastefull of power! Plugwash 01:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
 * So in summary: Neon lights can run on line-level power, which I was unaware of; I do, in fact, know of the trouble of resistance and voltage with respect to LEDs, just hadn't thought about it; and I had never noticed the flicker on the "Ground" and "Surge" indicator lights before this moment (the ones of the type I assumed were LEDs). Sharprs 06:40, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

A standard neon indicator light requires about 60 volts to light up. These are used in many power strips, night lights, etc., with a series resistor. It's better than an LED because with an LED you get about 2 volts across the LED and the other 118 volts goes to waste in the series resistor, but with the neon indicator, you get only about half going to waste on the series resistor.

As for the use of the indicators, you flick your head around or your eyes, and you see, by the persistence of human vision, the phase sequence on your retina, so you can easily tell whether the neons are going clockwise or counter clockwise. Glogger 22:43, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Bulgin plug
I believe Bulgin is an 8-way connecter used for lighting - perhaps someone that knows about it could add a section for it? cdv 11:25, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Bulgin is a connector manufacturer. What is reffered to in the disco lighting trade as a bulgin connector is a bulgin P551, an 8 way general purpose mains connector that happens to be used for multi-channel lighting connections. Not sure if this is the right place for it though it is a pretty niche connector. Plugwash 12:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Japanese Type C Sockets
I don't know abuot this topic very well but I live in Japan and know that the Industry here uses different types of plugs and sockets which are Type A, B, C, D and T (as far as I know). The most commonly used is Type C. If anybody is knowlegeable or is good at looking this kind of stuff up it would be cool if you could add it to the article. Here are some Japanese links of the products if that helps...

Type C (C型) Product page: http://biz.national.jp/Ebox/choko/pdf/sta/124-127.pdf (PDF) Type C Image: http://www.tlt.co.jp/tlt/art/catalogue/connectors/image/c20cl.jpg Type D (D型) Image: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Type_D.JPG

Davidkazuhiro 16:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

receptacles
What are receptacles, as mentioned in the text? Thanks, --Abdull 15:38, 23 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Receptacles are the sockets into which plugs are plugged.


 * Atlant 00:45, 24 July 2005 (UTC)


 * "receptacle" is a synonym for "socket", right?
 * I think I will search-and-replace "receptacle" so this article only uses the term "socket".
 * Any objection? --70.189.77.59 16:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Object - the Canadian and US electrical codes calls them "receptacles". "Socket" is too overloaded with other meanings ( you can have an IP "socket", for heaven's sake!). --Wtshymanski 16:29, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

13 amps in Switzerland
Does anybody have information please on 13 amp plugs and sockets in Switzerland? Thanks --brough 18:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

IEC 60309 in America
I'm not yet willing to edit it into the article, but I'll note for the record that it's apparently common in America to use the "red" IEC 60309 family for circuits that are 277 V Y, 480 V Δ. This doesn't seem to be in keeping with the exact letter of the IEC 60309 law, but maybe I'm just not seeing it.

Atlant 17:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * First things first IEC standards are NOT laws. According to MK there are actually too different types of RED plugs (do you know which one they are using in this case?) but there is no plug covering 480V 3 phase (it sits in a gap between the second red plug and the black ones). Its not that far out of spec though and 3 phase equipment tends not to be too portable anyway so its probablly not a problem in practice. Plugwash 20:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

French multiphase plugs and sockets
France has its own multiphase plugs and sockets system, I didn't find any info on it here on Wikipedia, so here's what I know. First, some photos I took :

Three phases + ground receptacle

Three phases + neutral + ground receptacle, type E socket to scale

Three phases + ground plug

Three phases + neutral + ground plug

(I'll upload these photos on Wikimedia if someone find them useful.)

I believe these are the common plugs for 3 phases/400V here in France. I saw them in factories, in farms, even in some homes where 3 phases/400V was needed. The 3 phases+ground is common, the 3 phases + neutral + ground is less seen. They are rated 400V 20A. I'm not sure if they're still installed in new constructions (they may have been replaced by IEC 60309) but they're still used. In fact, I always saw these plugs for 3 phases/400V and have yet to see an IEC 60309 plug. The plug without neutral can be mated with a 3 phases/neutral/ground receptacle (the plugs are the exact same size, the only difference between the two is the neutral).

Another type of french-specific plug not mentioned on Wikipedia is the monophase 20A plug :

Receptacle

Plug

Rated 250V 20A, this plug was common with kitchen ranges, ovens and washing machines. I believe they are obsoleted, as today most kitchen ranges and ovens are directly wired, and most (if not all) washing machines are sold with a CEE 7/7 plug. Adapters could (and may still) be found to plug an E plug in these plugs : 1 2 3

FF7Sephiroth (talk) 22:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Major rewrite of this page needed.
First, if we want to limit the article to poly phase or more accurately 3-phase, then we should rename the article and delete the sections on NEMA connectors (except for some less common twist-lock connectors), Stage pin connectors and California connectors since they are all single or whatever phase connectors. We should also get rid of references to all P+N+E and 2P+E in the IEC 60309 section.

I think the real problem with this article is that it is meant to be an overview of industrial AC connectors with short sections for different types like:
 * UK: Lewden plugs,
 * UK: BS 196,
 * Sweden, Germany and Netherlands: Perilex plugs.

But several of the sections are rather comprehensive descriptions of the technical details of various plugs. For these sectionis there is a better connector specific main article:
 * Europe-wide IEC 60309 system,
 * NEMA 10-20, 10-30 and 10-50 connectors,
 * twist-locking connectors (part of NEMA main article)
 * and Stage pin connectors.

For these connectors new wikipedia articles could be written.
 * California 50 A Connectors and perhaps
 * Pin and Sleeve connectors

Limit the description of each connector type to a short paragraph. Then reference the in depth main article page.

I would keep the references to 125v/250v connectors. Office use is considered light industrial.

I would also add:
 * Cam-lock
 * PowerCon (Being adopted in Live sound and show equipment)

This would be a major rewrite of this page. More work than I am willing to do at this time. Robert.Harker (talk) 07:47, 1 August 2016 (UTC)


 * And the new section on Concepts and terminology only makes the comprehensive description problem worse. Robert.Harker (talk) 19:23, 1 August 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree that the "Concepts and Terminology" section exacerbates problems rather than solving them. If we have to provide a glossary to understand this article we're doing something wrong.


 * I believe this article really needs to be edited in concert with AC power plugs and sockets, which starts off with "This article is about mains power connection devices used in domestic and light commercial environments. For other types, see Industrial and multiphase power plugs and sockets." By implication whatever doesn't fit over there ought to fit over here, which is to say plugs and sockets you'd commonly find in homes (regardless of phase) ought to be over there, and heavier-duty plugs and sockets not commonly found in homes ought to be here. The "multiphase" distinction is superfluous, and is the source of the huge argument (above) I had with User:FF-UK in the first place. We have one article explicitly about domestic plugs and sockets and another about industrial (or "not-domestic") and "multiphase" plugs/sockets. There are "multiphase" connectors used in homes (e.g. the Yugoslavian three-phase plugs described in this article), and there are single-phase connectors used in industry (e.g. single-phase NEMA connectors are commonly used in North America). All "multiphase" in the title of this article does is make the scope of this article unnecessarily and confusingly overlap with "AC power plugs and sockets", therefore I propose we get rid of "multiphase" in the article title entirely and move any common household plugs—regardless of the whether they're single-phase or not (by anyone's definition)—to "AC power plugs and sockets". CplDHicks (talk) 20:54, 2 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Robert.Harker: "if we want to limit the article to poly phase or more accurately 3-phase, then we should rename the article and delete the sections on NEMA connectors" Irrelevant comment, as no one has suggested that.
 * Robert.Harker: "new section on Concepts and terminology only makes the comprehensive description problem worse". No, it makes sure that readers are on the same page when it comes to the use of terms which are not familiar to all, or are commonly misunderstood.
 * CplDHicks: "article really needs to be edited in concert with AC power plugs and sockets". The latter article is the right place for any discussion of changes to that article, not here!  Please bear in mind that AC power plugs and sockets is a much more popular article with many more views (182k vs. 18k for this page in the last 90 days). FF-UK (talk) 08:21, 5 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Given the discussion has already started here I have posted a notice of this discussion at Talk:AC power plugs and sockets, and have directed the conversation here. (And per WP:MULTI the discussion should not be split.)
 * With that out of the way: FF-UK, what are your thoughts about the content of these two articles, and how they relate to each other? Do you have any opinion on the perceived overlapping of the scopes of these two articles? CplDHicks (talk) 23:06, 5 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The discussion here is about THIS article, not any other! FF-UK (talk) 08:15, 6 August 2016 (UTC)


 * There are "multiphase" connectors used in homes (e.g. the Yugoslavian three-phase plugs described in this article), and there are single-phase connectors used in industry (e.g. single-phase NEMA connectors are commonly used in North America). All "multiphase" in the title of this article does is make the scope of this article unnecessarily and confusingly overlap with AC power plugs and sockets, therefore I propose we get rid of "multiphase" in the article title entirely and move any common household plugs—regardless of the whether they're single-phase or not (by anyone's definition)—to "AC power plugs and sockets". CplDHicks (talk) 08:43, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Chinese AC connectors?
Is anyone interested in plugs and sockets used in China? Robert.Harker (talk) 22:33, 2 August 2016 (UTC)


 * This is a completely inappropriate page on which to mention Chinese domestic plugs and sockets! FF-UK (talk) 07:58, 5 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Sorry if I offended you. I have noticed that this article is very US/Europe centric.  We have connectors from Croatia, Serbia, BiH, Slovenia, Montenegro and Macedonia but no connectors from any Asian countries.  I am sure they have their own connectors which are different than ours.  China is a kind of large country to be ignored.


 * I did some research trying to find out what they were called and all I could find was that article about the domestic plug. I wanted to capture the information in case someone else wanted to go further in depth because I spent some time looking for it. Robert.Harker (talk) 18:06, 5 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Did you look here? AC_power_plugs_and_sockets The core information in the article (which appears to date from early 2015) on the commercial website you referenced is in fact a copy of the WP article that has been there for 12 years. FF-UK (talk) 11:13, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

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Reyrolle plugs and connectors?
These were in use here in New Zealand until they were banned in 1990, normally they were 3 phase 400V Delta, with a scraping earth connection on the metallic body of the plug/socket combo, I remember as an industrial electrician getting a good tingle off of these plugs when plugging them in or unplugging them. Trumpy (talk) 09:45, 12 June 2017 (UTC)