Talk:Infante Jaime, Duke of Madrid

Love life
Should be noted somewhere.

ON JAIME, DUKE OF MADRID, ASKS PERMIT TO WED NIECE The Washington Post Date: May 12, 1919 Marriages of uncles with their nieces are so rare, especially among the royal families of Europe, that the appeal of Don Jaime, Duke of Madrid and head of the Carlist party in Spain, to the papacy for an ecclesiastical dispensation permitting him to contract a matrimonial alliance with the 19-year-old Princess Babiola Massimo, second daughter of his sister Beatrice and of the latter's husband, Prince Fabrizio Massimo, has naturally attracted a considerable amount of attention.
 * done!--Dd1495 (talk) 10:33, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

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 * Aplec Jaimista 1919.jpg

native tongue
Hello,

I have expanded the article a bit, but there is one important piece of information which is missing, and it is missing because I failed to find reliable sources on the issue. And the issue is: what was Don Jaime’s mothertongue? I am writing this to invite anyone who thinks he/she could help to come out.

I see the following options:


 * 1.	most likely: French. This is so for a number of reasons: A) his parents communicated in French (the noble language) and perhaps but less likely in Italian (the vulgar language); the latter because both Doña Margarita and Don Carlos were raised among mostly Italian-speaking people (servants, maids, butlers, the staff manning the castle, horse-men). His parents certainly did not communicate in Spanish, as Doña Margarita did not know this language; B) Doña Margarita’s mothertongue was French, as her mother was purely French; C) Don Jaime’s early education was in the Jesuit school in Paris, where French was the language of instruction; D) his godfather, Count of Chambord, was pure Frenchman
 * 2.	possible: Spanish. From his early childhood Don Jaime got a Spanish preceptor, in the late 1870s the family chaplain was also Spanish. He was also brought up as a future Spanish king, so I guess the Spanish culture was implanted in him very strongly. Also, his correspondence with sisters (at least during the Russo-Japanese war) was in Spanish. However, I think it was unlikely he spoke Spanish as his native tongue. I think he started learning it as a foreign language, at the age of 4 or 5. Besides, I have learnt somewhere that he spoke Spanish with a foreign accent - quite likely given he has never lived in a Spanish-speaking environment longer than few weeks, and this is not before 1894, when he was 24. However, I am really curious in what language Don Jaime communicated with his father; here I think Spanish is as likely as French
 * 3.	possible but unlikely: Italian. Both his parents spoke Italian, though as a language used in communication with staff rather than among family members. From early childhood Don Jaime visited his mother’s property and later residence in Viareggio, though he did not live there during longer spells until a teenager. He later frequently visited Venice and lived there during few monthy strings. Italian is possible only in case this was the prevailing language of communication between his parents, which I think – though I am not sure – unlikely. Sure he spoke Italian very well, but rather as a foreign language.
 * 4.	totally unlikely: English. I think it unlikely that Don Jaime started learning English before going to Beaumont College, when he was 11. Sure he must have mastered English very well when in Old Windsor, yet I think it has always been a foreign language to him.
 * 5.	totally unlikely: German. I am not sure how much German Don Jaime might have picked up during childhood, guess a bit and this is because of his family links to the Austria-Este branch which used to rule Modena, and also because many of his Habsburg cousins were native German speakers. His father Don Carlos did speak German rather well. But he has not lived in a German-speaking environment before 1890, when he was 20. My bet is he started to learn German systematically either shortly before or after moving to Wiener Neustadt. I guess he learnt German well, after all he spent few years in Austrian military academy and then lived during long spells in Frohsdorf, where he must have communicated somehow with the local staff
 * 6.	impossible: probably he spoke some Portuguese, and this is due to (rather distant) family links; if so, I guess this was only basics. Don Jaime must have learnt some Russian when serving in Odessa and Warsaw, but I would be surprised if this was more than some 20-30 military commands; guess he talked to fellow Russian officers in French. Even less likely is Polish; there was no need for him to speak Polish in Warsaw, perhaps he picked up some words and phrases, but no more. Some sources claim he learnt very basic Japanese when in the Nagasaki hospital in 1904-1905. Maybe he learnt some phrases in Arabic or Berber when visiting Morocco. Of course Don Jaime has learnt Latin and perhaps also some Greek in schools.

Any views? --Dd1495 (talk) 12:51, 21 July 2022 (UTC)


 * His diaries seem to be in Spanish, even though they had to be translated and published in French afterwards. If Spanish was not his "native" tongue, it seems to have been at least his favourite one.--Raderich (talk) 19:16, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Contributions by User:Dd1495
A statement like this is not sourced and counts as original research: "Don Jaime's royal ancestry and heir to the Carlist king of Spain determined both his material status and political career, while relations along collateral lines – especially with the Austrian Habsburgs and the French Bourbons – were responsible for some twists and turns of his life."

A statement like this just does not belong in an article about Jaime: "In the late 19th century Warsaw was the third most populous city of the Russian Empire; with almost 700,000 inhabitants, it was larger than Madrid or Barcelona." Noel S McFerran (talk) 16:18, 25 August 2022 (UTC)


 * deleting large chunks of the article, including entire sections and sub-sections, seems a bit of an overkill to me.


 * in case there are some statements considered unreferenced the appropriate course of action would rather be to insert mini-tags requesting reference.


 * also, deleting entire sub-sections which provide background useful to understand the fate of the protagonist appears to be somewhat sectarian.


 * then, deleting entire sections of the article, without prior discussion on talk page or any other attempt to discuss, is hardly in line with co-operative and good-willed spirit, supposed to rule in WP.


 * and last but not least, the title of this section - Contributions by User:Dd1495 is somewhat odd. 100% of this article has been written by myself, every single word and every single coma. --Dd1495 (talk) 16:06, 2 November 2022 (UTC)