Talk:Inland Empire/Archive 1

Inland Empire is not a county
The Inland Empire is not a county, but as a region has similarities to a county. Using information at WikiProject U.S. Counties to improve this article. - DesertSteve 15:22 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Will, I am responding to being accussed of spamming on the board, I assure you I am not attempting to spam and I feel the message board is a legitimate Inland Empire resource. According, the cities I selected to be affiliated with this message board are apart of the Inland Empire and I thought I was sharing good resource for the visitors of Wikipedia. Please take this understaning into consideration and please respond soon. --IEGuy

Thank you.

Moved from the Village pump:

While updating the Interstate 15 article, I came across an interesting situation. The article contains a link to Inland Empire and Inland Empire (California). Both articles contain information about the region near Los Angeles, California, but I don't know enough about the area to merge the articles myself. Also, there's the question of which would be the most appropriate title -- with or without the state name. Is the "Inland Empire" near Portland, Oregon sufficiently well-known to warrant its own entry? If not, I'd think the simpler Inland Empire would be the best place for the article.

I'm not planning to make this change myself, as my hands are full with the List of United States Highways. I'm hoping a Californian will jump into the breach! --Robertb-dc 23:09, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * Usually "Inland Empire" in California means around the Central Valley (Sacramento area), not LA. I've lived in the Pacific NW for 26 years and never heard of an "Inland Empire" by Portland (although I guess I could imagine such a term having been used many years ago to mean Oregon's now-dominant Willamette Valley, including Portland, as against the Oregon Coast). It is the common term for the area around Spokane, Washington, extending into part of Northern Idaho. -- Jmabel 23:15, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * Told you I didn't know enough to make the change myself! :) So who will bell the cat? --Robertb-dc 01:17, 23 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * The cat is belled. The SoCal Inland Empire is not near Sacto, but near Riverside and the AZ border and stuff. Is very big. And there is apparently a much older Inland Empire (~1890s v. ~1950s) area in Washington. They are disambiguated: Inland Empire (disambiguation). Sorry it means more link work for editors. jengod 02:27, Jan 23, 2004 (UTC)


 * No kidding. I grew up in the area around Sacramento and NEVER heard it called the Inland Empire.  I now live in Southern California and the Inland Empire is DEFINITELY Riverside/San Bernardino.  RickK 02:57, 23 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * But it does not go out to the Arizona border. The Inland Empire is only the inhabited parts of San Bernardino and Riverside, not the desert parts of those counties.  At least when I lived in Apple Valley, near Victorville, we never refered to the area as the Inland Empire, but it was used when I lived in Alta Loma, just uphill of the Ontario Airport.  Maybe things have changed sence I moved back to San Jose.


 * I lived in the Inland Empire from 1985 to 2000. Like others have said, the term normally refers to the cities in that region. It starts going east from the Claremont/Montclair area (technically in LA county), all the way to Yucaipa. The San Bernardino county extends to the Arizona border, but going east past Yucaipa I would say is out of what is considered the IE. The desert parts of SB county like Victorville, Hesperia, etc are normally called the "High Desert". I'm not sure how far south into Riverside county it goes (or is considered to go), as I'm from San Bernardino, not Riverside. I know that past Corona you start getting into OC. Sometimes Pomona gets lumped into the IE as well, but that is technically in LA county.


 * I have heard the IE has being referred to in the past 5 years or so as "the 909" due to the telephone area code, but I have been told that the area code recently split. Up until recently there was also a website (www.909pride.com) extolling the virtues of being from the IE.


 * I have lived in the IE my whole life, the area codes split between 909(San Bernardino County) and 951(Riverside County). People in the western portion of the IE sometimes refer to it as the Inland Valley, to officially encompass Pomona and other nearby LA County cities with 909 area codes(Technically speaking, and my English Teacher in HS explained this to me, The IE is JUST San Bernardino and Riverside Counties).  And for future refrence, Montclair is in San Bernardino County, I grew up there, it is the county line(With Pomona/CLaremont)

Is the Cucamonga region even a separate valley? I'd like to see a reference for that claim because I doubt it. According to this its origins are a Mexican land grant. To my recollection, this area basically covers the alluvial fans south of the Cajon Pass. The incorporated city is part of San Bernardino County, which qualifies as Inland Empire for the Southern California usage. Yet the original rancho was 13,000 acres and probably extended into parts of what is now eastern Los Angeles County, which makes the matter debatable. Durova Charg e! 04:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The Inland Empire is entirely south of the San Bernardino Mountains and entirely west of the San Jacinto mountains. 4.246.240.122 (talk) 04:35, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Origin of Phrase
I grew up in the fifties in Brawley, CA. At that time, Inland Empire was the name used to refer to Imperial County and eastern Riverside County, the areas served by the Imperial Irrigation Department. A magazine supplement for the newspapers in that area was called "Inland Empire Magazine" and came out at intervals. This would have included Calexico, Winterhaven, El Centro, Holtvile, Imperial, Brawley, Westmorland, Calipatria, Niland, Seeley, Palo Verde, Blythe, Coachella, Indio, Thermal, Mecca and others.

As I understood it, the phrase "Inland Empire" was the origin for the names of the city and county of Imperial and the geographic area called the Imperial Valley. That would make it pretty old since the county was split off from San Diego during the first decade of the twentieth century. Facts might be checked by consulting newspaper morgues in the area, such as the Imperial Valley Press of El Centro.

In the late 60s, the magazine became a monthly or bimonthly and apparently moved its hq to Riverside. After that, I heard Inland Empire used to refer to all of the inland counties of Southern California; Imperial, Riverside and San Bernardino. It wasn't until the 80s that I heard anyone limiting the term to the western ends of the two larger counties. From my point of view, a very strange migration. Halfelven 03:19, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * hello I'm a resident of Indio Cal. and the regional term isn't as strong. More people use the term "desert" or "southwest" than the terms "Sou Cal" or "Inland Empire". There's a similarity in geography and landscape with Arizona and Nevada for those living in the Indio area. Culturally, the high Latino/Hispanic element might have to do with the name change, as some in Imperial county might refer to "American Mexico/ Mex-USA". Indio and Coachella became one of the U.S./Cal. highest concentrates of Hispanic or Mexican Americans, since immigration was very high for the two towns in the 1990s. I been to Imperial County, there's still plenty of farmland and the towns are growing within the confines of city limits. It's going to change and with NAFTA passed in 1993, the border city of Calexico seem to boom and thrive the most. Mexicali is a major city, the capital of Baja Cal. Mexico and perhaps the closest major city from Indio than Riverside or San Diego. The regional term seems to follow where white Anglos are the majority, but the eastward move of more (no pun intended) to Indio-Coachella to purchase a new home or property in bargain prices, the pendulum may be shifting back. Then again, most newcomers in the Inland Empire are Hispanic, and came from Los Angeles or you won't have Spanish-language new home ads. Oh well +207.200.116.8 13:37, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The Inland Empire, if a separate metropolitian area not attached to Los Angeles-Orange counties, would outnumber San Diego and San Francisco-Oakland (the Bay Area is second in Cal. if it includes San Jose). The population is going to reach 5 or 6 million in another 30 years, the most growth shifted to the Victor valley, South of Hemet, the San Gorgonio pass, the Norco area and the fastest-growing areas 120-130 miles from L.A.: Indio-Coachella has more people than Palm Springs, and considerably the next big city. Of course the largest is Riverside, followed by San Bernardino, and the Ontario area has became a major industrial-commercial hub of Southern Cal. and north America in the 2000s. Moreno Valley, Temecula, Rancho Cucamonga and Redlands are the new formation of the U.S. post-war sprawling suburb, plus to add Victorville and Palm Desert with its' golf clubs and millionaires. 30 years ago, this is a mainly rural middle-class region, but today the Inland Empire has evolved to what's called a "yuppified" region. It reminds me of Orange County of the 1960s/70s and San Fernando valley of the 1940s/50s. Not since the mid 1980s has California had an economic worth before the recessions of 1988-1996 had been the worst on state record. The major cities and Indio-Coachella was the most affected by the recessions, and business money avoided them for awhile. Today, the money went to the lowest housing cost areas and the Inland Empire remains the best real estate deal in the state and nation as the average home price is in the $400s. Orange County and San Diego costs twice, Los Angeles thrice, and anyone moving to Victorville and Coachella will pay a quarter of the state average home price. Only a small area of Palm Springs is where the home prices surpass a million, but Palm Desert is the real millionaire spot+ 207.200.116.8 13:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Someone that has lived in the IE for longer than I have gave me a little piece of "urband legend" associated with the name Inland Empire. Apparently, in the 50s & 60's the term "Inland Empire" was coined to describe the KKK stronghold in the region of Norco/Corona.  I have seen nothing that proves this, but our company has decided against using the term "Inland Empire" in case anyone can actually remember the negative conotation.  Besides the fact that Inlane Empire doesn't translate colloquially into Spanish, which for marketing purposes does us no good! --HatchetFaceBuick 20:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * In Spanish, it should be called "El Reino/La Imperia de la Terra", but Hispanic or Latino residents are able to come up with nicknames for towns and regions they hail from: "SudaCalifas" or "Alta Califas" are two of the few I've heard of. "The Valleys" is much more popular, trendy and economically feasible to sell the Inland Empire, already going by "the I.E." or the "Southland" on TV news weather reports. + —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.102.2.206 (talk) 13:50, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

lately i been hearing people in this region refer it as the inland valley not inland empire. 75.28.111.109 (talk) 21:22, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Gang Violence
Who ever the guy is that said you can not compare crime in the IE to crim in south LA is completley incorrect. I grew up in the IE, and currently work in the heart of South LA in the city of Carson. Although there are very rough neighborhoods in both LA and IE, the IE is much tuffer as a whole. For anyone that disagrees go read the san bernardino county suns articles on homicide. Per capita San Bernardino almost doubles Los Angeles.


 * POV Nothing but anecdotes.  Besides, San Bernardino, California is only one part of the IE.  And why not respond directly instead of editing this massive rambling of yours? DeeKenn 16:54, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

The I.E. has several Chicano gangs including Westside Verdugo in San Bernardino, Ontario Varrio Sur, and Chino Sinners. Several members of these gangs rank high in the Mexican Mafia. San Bernardino is home to numerous violent gangs including the 7th Street gang.

The Inland Empire is more urbanized than ever, and the rising number of young people is also a concern. I don't want to make it a POV or make deragatory remarks on Riverside county's population. But the lack of amentities and recreation for children in some areas, and older sections of cities become more low-income and diverse, so this is a challenge in terms of social equality and opportunity. Many upper-income and professional commuters have to drive 2 hours to work in O.C.,L.A. or San Diego, then anything really for the children and teenagers? Why the Inland Empire Cal. became a Neo-Nazi hot spot? Is there a "fear" of another L.A. when it'll have too many people (3 million in the area, but expected to double in 25 years), but the rising percentage of black people? Asians? Latinos? Anyone not a WASP? Oh come on, most Inland Empire residents do not fear or care what color they are. There is a large conservative Republican voter base (not an opinion, but a fact from the two counties' wikipedia pages on the GOP had more votes than the Dems.), but it's not an excuse to attract the wrong kind of people in a false belief that "everyone's white here". Nope, the Riverside-San Bernardino area had a history of Hispanic culture since the area was settled by Mexicans in the 1800s and early 1900s. The latest wave of immigration in the 1980's and 90s, esp. high concentrations in North end of Riverside and the Coachella valley (Indio-Palm Springs) handled gang crime problems. Not because of race or ethnicity, but a community with widespread poverty, unchecked crime rates and racial enclavism create an environment for gangs. The issue should not remain ignored before crime in the Inland Empire surpasses L.A. The solution is create more positive environments for young people, like more recreation centers, expand public education, get more colleges and high-paid jobs close to home. And fight the perception of right-wing racist gangs made the Inland Empire a magnet for this sort of thing. Orange County and North San Diego used to be labeled ultra-conservative, so did Palm Springs until the 1990s. Also the majority of voters in Riverside, san Bernardino and Indio seem to lean toward Democrats, either a socio-economic reason or most Hispanics usually vote Democrat. So does the upper-class elites in west L.A. and most urban areas, Orange County is now more Democrat. The shift of Republican and white Anglo votes east to the Inland Empire had concerned Cal. state and U.S. politicans want to recieve the right number of votes, esp. from the suburban middle class. + 207.200.116.8 13:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Someone has the map list "Pomona Valley", that neglects "Pomona City" {Pomona_(city%2C_California)}.

That's about like Tbilisi|Tblisi being so far from Atlanta.

Well, I'd attempted humor,....

Please clarify the map.

Thank You.

Hopiakuta 23:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I vote for the removal of the gang violence section. There is not one source listed in there aside from the crime data.  I'm not saying that the gangs do not exist, I just question its encyclopedic value here.  DeeKenn 03:07, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it does have encyclopedic value. However, it does need a major cleanup, including proper sourcing. I'll see if I can do so in the next few days.  B rien C lark Talk 03:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, it's still here and it sticks out like a sore thumb. Since I don't agree with its relevance, I'll give someone else a few more days to rewrite it (at least).  I also think that it should be more generic in its scope (i.e. crime stats alone).  Someone's trying to paint the IE like it's South Los Angeles which, of course, it's not.  Notice, though, how the gang history is carefully integrated into South Central's page. DeeKenn 22:04, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I merged what crime statistics that were notable with the Demographics section and removed the "Gangs & crime" section due to lack of references since April 2007. I hope we don't have an editing war over this one.  DeeKenn 15:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Merge suggestion: Pomona Valley into Inland Empire (California)
I strongly oppose the recent suggestion to merge the Pomona Valley article into the Inland Empire (California) article. The Pomona Valley is a region of Los Angeles County, while the Inland Empire almost always means Riverside County + San Bernardino County. BlankVerse 12:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I just went to Victoria Gardens and above the Food Court inside, There's a giant sign that reads, "Rancho Victoria, San Bernardino Valley Citrus". What is that suppose to mean?--Redspork02 13:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I strongly support the merger of the three!! I grew up in the IE and trust me when I say that know one refers to the "Cucamonga Valley", or "Pomona Valley", its all the IE from Pomona to Redlands from Big Bear to Temecula. On I-10 when you  physically pass the San Jose/Puente Hills  heading east is when you enter the City of Pomona/ IE REGION. The Inland Empire is not a county, but as a region has similarities to The San Fernando Valley. Some people just dont like to be associated with the IE because of its Suburban landscape and gritty crime in the Rialto, Moreno Valley, Colton areas. Once again, I  suggest a Merger!!--Redspork02 16:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * i strongly oppose the merge. i lived in san bernardino for 15 years ('85-2000) and i never knew anyone that considered pomona part of the inland empire. when people say "inland empire" they usually are referring only to san bernardino and riverside counties. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chadski (talk • contribs)


 * I oppose this idea as Pomona Valley while partially in the Inland Empire, would confuse the issue on one hand and secondarily, lump local intrests into a vast area they that they are on the margin of. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.117.211.159 (talk • contribs)
 * Strongly oppose. The Inland Empire is a long standing colloquial term regularly used by newspapers, books, television and radio.  It might seem strange to people outside of Southern California that a section of it is deemed an "empire," but that truly is the case.  However, the locations Pomona Valley, Cucamonga Valley and San Bernardino Valley are distinctive large geographical features.  This is like the San Fernando Valley having a seperate article from Los Angeles or Los Angeles County because it is ia distinctive large and heavily populated geographical area. --Oakshade 05:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose for reasons stated by Oakshade. Rmannion 18:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose - each have their own, fully separate identity. Just because there is some overlap does not entail a merge. If there were the case, Los Angeles County should certainly have many smaller valleys, regions or areas merged into it. Nay. Ronbo76
 * Oppose per abovementioned items. Brien Clark 00:33, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose per abovementioned items. I am a long time resident of the Inland Empire, since 1952.  The Inland Empire does not include any part of Los Angeles County, though Los Angeles would like to try to claim areas in adjacent counties to make their county seem bigger.   Twodogkd 11:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)twodogkd  3:10 March 2007
 * oppose these 3 objects are shown as separate regions of California and need separate articles, as such. Hmains 22:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Strongly support the merger, Pomona Valley is part of LA County but the mountains along it's Western Border seem to be a more "real" boundary. They county they lie in isn't as important as the geographical boundaries and the different "feeling" you get between, say, West Covina and Pomona. If you can stand by the county line as an argument for separation, once could suggest the 909 area code means they should be joined in spirit with the rest of the Inland Empire. Notation that is is a separate region OF the Inland Empire is appropriate, but it is, IMO a PART of the Inland Empire just like the other various valleys. --ThePOWERtoRULE 17:35, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * if you talk to many local people, they all consider the pomona valley(pomona) as part of the inland empire. victorville and indio are NOT part of the inland empire they are there own regions. the inland valley(I.E.) is normally considerd from lake Perris to the cajon pass and from kellogg hill(where cal poly Pomona is currently located{ 10/57/71 interchange) to the san Gorgonio pass. 75.28.111.109 (talk) 21:43, 2 July 2009 (UTC)


 * This is about the Inland Empire Metropolitan Area which is ALL of Riverside and San Bernardino Counties please see the IE website: House1090 (talk) 01:02, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

""L.A. and OC's New Jersey."
I've lived in Los Angeles 15 years and never heard this. It's considered a rural backwater, but I've never heard it called our "New Jersey". Remove it? Arspickles17 00:26, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Never heard of it either. It was tagged with fact requesting a citation on January 31, 2007. I would let it have at least two more days but that is up to other editors as well. Ronbo76 00:45, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I maintain residences in both Orange County (24 years) and Riverside County (3 years). I've never once heard this, the author added no citation, its now gone. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.229.231.152 (talk) 09:25, 6 February 2007 (UTC).


 * You mean "Southern California's New Jersey", I read the term somewhere on the L.A. times when the Inland Empire's population density per square mile has really been higher than national average. New Jersey on average has 13,000 per sq. km., in comparison the entire Inland Empire won't be over 50 per sq. km. The majority of the two counties are deserts (the two counties are larger than most of New England!), except anywhere within a 20-mile radius of Riverside and San Bernardino (cities) are now covered in mostly suburban sprawl and industrial development, but has slowed down in the late 2000's recession. I began to reconsider the nickname has more to do with urban blight issues, alike New Jersey, from high rate development and expansion of the nearby metropolitian area, and the Inland Empire is known for notorious youth gangs, drug trafficking and high crime rates. Not long ago (10 to 20 years?), many new residents moved to the suburbs to get away from urban blight encompassing most of L.A. city and metro area. + 71.102.2.206 (talk) 20:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Air Pollution: EPA
just as a note, while the EPA is the federal agency associated with monitoring, regulating, enforcing, etc. the air quality in what is the Inland Empire (as it would on a federal level in ANY state) there is also a state agency which does the same work on a state level; that would be the California Air Resources Board, or CARB. However, most appropriately, the agency that would really be responsible for the IE where air pollution matters are concerned, would be the South Coast Air Quality Management District, which is the REGIONAL air quality agency that watches over the IE, as well as portions of 4 other So. Cal. counties. --HatchetFaceBuick 20:21, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Country station
KFRG is no longer the only country station in Southern CA, there is another one now... 105.1, I think?

I'm not a country fan, but perhaps somebody who knows more about this station can update this? --ThePOWERtoRULE 17:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It is KKGO (105.1), and the format is indeed country. I will update the page when I get the time. Sorry about the edit.DeeKenn 12:07, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

FBI Crime Data?
I'm having a difficult time understanding how we have crime data from the FBI for 2007 when we're only in the 7th month of the year?

That section is still, in my opinion, the sore thumb of the entire entry.

DeeKenn 05:30, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Recent page moves
I just undid what appears to be a cut and paste move which did not also move the talk page. In order to move a page with extensive history, you need to use the move tab to preserve the edit history. Since there is a history for the target page, this requires an admin to make the move. If someone wants to move this page, it needs to be listed at WP:RM. Don't list it as uncontested since I believe that there will be several opinions raised. Naming conventions (places) might be a good resource for determining what this article will be titled, also the MoS suggests that a name that is not disambiguated should be used when possible. It had been moved to Inland Empire (CA) however it looks like it was at Inland Empire (California) for a while since that is what is listed at Inland Empire. Vegaswikian 07:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks like one IE article isn't enough for our friend User:Ie909: Greater San Bernardino Area As much as I appreciate this person's enthusiasm for the project, he seems to be creating more problems than he solves. Amerique dialectics 21:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't get the recent moves from the title Inland Empire (California) to the current title Riverside-San Bernardino Area (see logs here), with a whole lot of hyperlinks in other articles created using the new title. I find Inland Empire a more common and better known term for the area, and more suitable for the encyclopedia. The whole article, if you read it, is about Inland Empire, not about Riverside-San Bernardino area. Am I the only one confused about this? --BeautifulFlying (talk) 23:23, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I completely agree. A good faith but somewhat problematic editor User:Ie909 has been able to slip various page moves and other questionable content changes across So-Cal related articles under the vandalism radar. While I would support moving this (and related categories, such as Category:Riverside-San Bernardino Area, Category:People from the Riverside-San Bernardino Area) back to Inland Empire (California) namespaces, i don't have time to initiate this rather massive shift myself or otherwise sweep up after this guy. (Incidentally, based on his interests and editing pattern, he's also probably this guy: User:House1090, though he seems to have moved on from unsourced image uploads.) Amerique dialectics  00:41, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The page is moved back to Inland Empire (California). I'm going to move this talk page as well (for some reason it didn't get moved automatically). --BeautifulFlying (talk) 05:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅ - moved the talk page as well, and reverted a few redirects to point back to the Inland Empire (California). But boy, the rest of the Riverside-San Bernardino area stuff... that may require a bot to clean up. --BeautifulFlying (talk) 08:32, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Created an IE userbox, represent!
Amerique dialectics 05:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Neat! DeeKenn (talk) 14:40, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

San Bernardino user box
House1090 (talk) 22:42, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Riverside user box
MissionInn.Jim (talk) 16:38, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Wow cool thanks MissionInn.Jim we now have one for SB, Riverside and the IE! House1090 (talk) 23:30, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

San Dimas is not a part of the Inland Empire
I can't read the entire article cited for this statement, but San Dimas is not listed on the inland empire's website: http://www.inlandempire.us/city_directory.php Should this be revised? Brad219 (talk) 16:14, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * none of the LA county cities are, but they are in because they share an area code. Amerique dialectics 18:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Where does it say that the inland empire's borders are defined by area codes? You said none of the LA county cities are.  So they shouldn't be.  I'll be changing this if nobody can cite something reliable... Brad219 (talk) 22:27, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Added a cite from the LAT. Amerique dialectics 22:51, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I am sorry Amerique but I think San Dimas, La Verne, Pomona, ect. Should all fall in the Pomona Valley Category, sure it shares an area code but not all of SB and Riverside County cities share the same area code. Most of the other websites and other major cites including metropolitan area websites, all consider the IE as a BiCounty area not a TriCounty area, there for I think wikipedia should too, it makes more sence. Pomona, La Verne, San Dimas, ect. are all considered to be a part of the LA-Orange County Metro any way not the IE Metro (San Bernardino-Riverside), so I really think it should be removed. If we dont come to a conclusion or if i get no responces, within 1 week i will take out LA county cities from this article and move them to the Pomona Vally article. House1090 (talk) 05:48, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I tend to agree with House. The eastern LA County cities are not generally considered to be in the Inland Empire, although they are right on the border and share an area code.  However, that is based on living and working in that general area some years ago, so it's original research.  I do not have a reliable source to back that up.  Alanraywiki (talk) 03:50, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm ambivalent. There is the two county metropolitan statistical area of Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario that this article can refer to exclusively if we want it to, but the term "IE" is synonymous with the 909 area code in the popular media. The "IE" descriptor is a marketing term invented without a direct referent or definite boundaries. The Pomona Valley is a geological landform that actually exists, and to me, the split between the San Gabriel Valley and the PV at the San Jose Hills provides the most obvious physical boundary between LA and the IE, in terms of these being distinct cultural areas. There is no obvious geographical marker between the PV and SB Valley; Base Line Road runs in a nearly uninterrupted line from San Bernardino to San Dimas. So far as the IE is an ambiguous term i think it can include the PV as it includes the Coachella Valley or Victor Valley. Amerique dialectics 17:09, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I tend to belive that the division of the area is the county lines between LA and San Bernardino Countys. The IE is know as a Bi county area throughout the media and what not....the IE is alo a metropolitan are thet only includes the BiCounty area (Riverside and San Bernardino). Now the Coachella and Victor Valleys are included in the IE because they are part of the BiCounty are, were Pomona is not. Pomona is considered to be a part of the LA Area (LA-Long Beach-Glendale). House1090 (talk) 00:13, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * User:Brad219 wrote me this message in support of the move: "I couldn't agree with you more. Are you going to make the change?" -Brad219. The message is in my talk page. House1090 (talk) 00:13, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

(restore indent) what specific change(s) are you talking about? Amerique dialectics 18:11, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I am thinking that every one agrees on removing all the cities in LA County and putting them in thier own article which will be the Pomona Valley. I am hoping to make the change on Monday February 16, 2009. House1090 (talk) 03:55, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


 * {| width="75%" align="center" class="notice noprint" style="background: none; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 0.5em; margin: 0.5em auto;"


 * valign="top" style="padding: 0.1em" | [[Image:Yes check.svg|50 px]]
 * style="padding: 0.1em" |
 * style="padding: 0.1em" |

Our request to remove the Pomona Valley or LA County Cities has been granted for the following reason(s): The Inland Empire is a BiCounty Area consisting of San Bernardino and Riverside Counties only, not LA County. Any Questions please contact me. -House1090 (talk) 02:18, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * }

IE Template and LA template???????
Please visit the discussion page of the greaterer los angeles area by clicking here for a BIG discussion conserning the Inland Empire Metro Template and the Los Angeles Template, your comeents are really wanted! Thank-You, and you know itzzHouse1090duhh (talk) 00:13, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

List of cities in Inland Empire
The last of the 11 cities, Twentynine Palms, below the "largest city" has less than 15,000 residents. Indio has over 80,000 residents and it needs to be put there. Unless there was recent population growth taken place in the Twentynine Palms/Yucca Valley area, notably it is a sparse-populated rural area that I'm aware of, please provide a reference on what makes Twentynine Palms among the 12 largest cities in the Inland Empire. Indio is the largest city of the Coachella Valley ahead of the more famous Palm Springs, about twice the people than them. I didn't find any serious change in population for Twentynine Palms or Yucca Valley, is there a sizable wintering (i.e. "snowbirds") or second-home population?+ 71.102.2.206 (talk) 13:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Inland Empire (disambiguation)
I belive that Inland Empire should redirect to Inland Empire (California). The Inland Empire is a major metro laarger than the other Inland Empire's. This article is more important that the film it self. Please share your thoughts! Thank-You itzzHouse1090duhh (talk) 16:33, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No, please read WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The wiki article on the IE film is the first hit on a Google search for "Inland Empire." Also, that article gets as much traffic as IE-CA, as seen here:, , so neither is predominant. Also, IE-PNW links to roughly as many articles as IE-CA, compared here:


 * Special:WhatLinksHere/Inland_Empire_(Pacific_Northwest)
 * Special:WhatLinksHere/Inland_Empire_(California)


 * Amerique dialectics 19:49, 21 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Wrong, Inland Empire (CA) is the first hit in google (at least in my computer) and I followed those links and they take me no where so please re ajust them or something for proof. House1090 (talk) 01:49, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm... how things change! Still, my basic position is the correct one per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:DISAMBIG. Try revert warring with me over this and you'll quickly find this to be the case. Amerique dialectics 04:28, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Just saying whats tru and last time I cheaked the IE had more visiters than GLAA. You know I dont want problems you just revert my edits without a "3O" 2 people must agree. Remember you dont own wikipedia. House1090 (talk) 23:35, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Of course, House. Law and order every time, that's me. Amerique dialectics  01:03, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I dont want us to keep on fighting over little things we need to learn to make compromises and be flexible thats what wikipedia is about. House1090 (talk) 04:42, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm just housekeeping, that's all. You are lucky I take some interest in this. How else would you learn about WP's operations? Amerique dialectics  05:40, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Well I hope we can work together and thanks for being patient with me, I know I have been a handfull!House1090 (talk) 06:09, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Hey There!
Intrested in the Inland Empire (California) area? Please see WikiProject Inland Empire and join if you like. It is a newly formed wikiproject that I just created so please cheak it out. Any questions contact me! Thank-You House1090 (talk) 20:53, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Radio station
This is too much info for an edit summary so I am putting it on the talk page. I removed the unsourced claim that KUCR "is the IE's most popular college radio station". KUCR does not even show on the Arbitron ratings. The most popular college station in the IE market is LA's KUSC. The most popular local college station is KUOR out of the University of Redlands, which is only a booster station for KPCC in Pasadena and it is ranked only 55th in the market. This information is not necessary. Alanraywiki (talk) 18:12, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. House1090 (talk) 19:42, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

"Valleys"
I live in Temecula, and no one refers to the area as the "Murrieta Valley", it is generally the "Temecula Valley", considering that is what the freeway is named. Should it be removed?GOLAASTL24 06:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Coachella Valley in the IE??
I have a hard time believing that the Coachella Valley is part of the Inland Empire, I always thought it was its own region in the Greater L.A. area?? your thoughts...--Redspork02 (talk) 21:01, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's located in Riverside County, and is geographically closer to San Diego than it would be to LA. But so far as "the Greater LA area" includes both the IE and Riverside County, it qualifies a member of both groups. Amerique dialectics 21:09, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The Palm Springs area NBC affiliate KMIR-TV used to have station ID bumpers announce they are "serving the Desert Empire" until the late 1990s. KMIR-TV represents Palm Springs, Palm Desert and other "Desert Empire" communities, not the "Inland Empire". There are maps showing the Palm Springs-Coachella Valley TV market DMA within Riverside county, but has put Banning, Hemet and Yucca Valley within the boundaries, all are located outside the Coachella Valley. + 71.102.3.86 (talk) 05:30, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Its still in the Inland Empire; Palm Springs, 29 Palms, Indio, Banning, Yucca Valley, Barstow, Neddles, ect...they in SB-Riverside Counties meaning they area a part of the SB-Riverside Metropolitan area. The "Desert Empire" is used to separate the "Big Cities" (SB, Riverside, Moreno Valley) from the desert areas (Palm Sprgs-Indio), its a sub-region in the IE. There are 3 major, unofficial regions; The West Valley (Chino Hills-Ontario-Corona); Big Cities (San Bernardino-Riverside-Moreno Valley-March Field AFB); The Desert Empire (Coachella Vally) Low/High Deserts (Victor Valley-29 Palms-Barstow-Neddles ect..) House1090 (talk) 04:14, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Largest city
Because this is a single region, there should be only one largest city in the infobox. There should not be both Riverside and San Bernardino as the largest city just because they are in two different counties. Please discuss thoughts otherwise on this talk page. Thanks, Alanraywiki (talk) 20:49, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Concur. Amerique dialectics 20:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thier should be one for Riverside County and one for San Bernardino county. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.254.141.166 (talk) 21:48, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yea I think their should be one for both counties, besides both SB and Riverside are the IE's capital cities/main hub. House1090 (talk) 23:48, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * House, isn't that your IP address from last year that you are agreeing with? If so, your comment should only be shown once. Alanraywiki (talk) 00:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC).


 * Not sure, I think I was using User:Salcan last year, but not sure. House1090 (talk) 01:22, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * You were using a few back then. I think if you look at the history it will be familiar.  You should remove it.  Thanks, Alanraywiki (talk) 01:30, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, whether a region or metropolitan area, I still think there is only one largest city. Alanraywiki (talk) 01:40, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

"Second largest metropolitan Area in Southern California"
I removed ""Second largest metropolitan Area in Southern California"" from the introduction of the article.
 * 1) Because it's unreferenced.
 * 2) Whoever added this statement simple totaled the population of the two counties. This is synthesizing data. You can't take two facts and form a third fact, this is not allowed on wikipedia.
 * 3) And third, the statement does not comply with the definition of a metropolitan area. San Bernardino is already recognized as being part of the L.A. metropolitan area (by the U.S. Census), just like Orange County. You can't cookie cut San Bernardino out of the L.A. area and add it with riverside, then call it a new area.
 * 4) the "Inland empire" is like the "great valley" region. They are NOT one metropolitan area, they are a group of cities and counties that come together and form an informal region based on there geographical location. This is simalar to how San Diego, L.A., and other Southern California cities unite as "Southern California."--cooljuno411 08:00, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I did some research, the U.S. census regonizes this as a "United States Core Based Statistical Areas", i will note this in the article.


 * Hi Cooljuno411; This article is meant to describe the Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area) that is on the table you referenced.  A "Metropolitan Statistical Area" is one of two types of "Core Based Statistical Areas".  The other is a "Micropolitan Statistical Area". Since the term "Metropolitan Statistical Area" is more specific than "Core Based Statistical Area", I believe it is more appropirate to refer to the Inland Empire as a "Metropolitan Statistical Area".  If you don't agree, would your please explain you research or reasoning that brought you to the conclusion that the Inland Empire should be described by the more general term rather than the more specific term?  You can read the Census Bureau's definition of Core Based and Metropolitan Statisical Area here.  Thank you.  MissionInn.Jim (talk) 18:04, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess you can ignore the above question since Polaron's changes make my question less relevant. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 18:18, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

A discussion regarding the editing activities of User:House1090 is occuring at WT:CAL
under this banner: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_California. Comments are requested. Please contribute if you have time. Thank you, Amerique dialectics  05:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Name Change

 * See also, Talk:United States metropolitan area
 * See also, Talk:United States metropolitan area
 * See also, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Urban studies and planning

I request a name change or "move" from: Inland Empire (California) to Inland Empire Metropolitan Area
 * Reason: So it can match w/ other metropolitan area articles like: New York Metropolitan Area; Los Angeles Metropolitan Area; ect. Also so it can let people know this is infact a metropolitan area, and not just a region/area. Please reply as soon as possible or I will change it with in 1-2 weeks. House1090 (talk) 00:05, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi House1090. Thank you for asking my opinion, but I would not be inclined to change the name.  The reason is three-fold.  1) I believe the term Inland Empire is not well defined.  It is used in many different contexts. Although it is sometimes used to refer to the Riverside-San Bernardino Metro area, it is also used to refer to all of Riverside and San Bernardino counties.  That is much more than the metro area.  2) Living most of my 50 years in Riverside, I have rarely, if ever, heard the term Inland Empire metropolitan area outside of Wikipedia.  I do hear Riverside-San Bernardino metro area and Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario metro area, but not Inland Empire metro area.  3) The article, as written, assumes that the Inland Empire covers all of Riverside and San Bernardino counties.  If the article was renamed, it should be rewritten to cover only the Riverside-San Bernardino metro area, which would include Ontario and the other cities in the immediate area, but not the entire counties.


 * I believe the term Inland Empire is a non-specific generic term that is more a regional disignation rather than a term tied specifically to the imediate Riverside-San Bernardino metro area. If you asked me in the 1970's, I would have said that it did tie closer to the metro area, but then people started including the communities out in Palm Springs, the High Desert, and Temecula.  Today it seems to be more commonly used to refer to all of Riverside and San Bernardino Counties.  The term has changed over the years, but to me it doesn't seem to be tied exclusively to the metro area any longer.


 * If voting on the matter, I would vote to leave the name as is. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 17:01, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * You have it wrong, Ther Riverside-SB-Ontario Metro includes Palm Springs, Barstow, Neddles, 29 Palms, ect (All of SB-Riverside Counties). The Inland Empire (not IE mtero area) is incorrectly used by locals, to define the SB-Riverside imediate area or formally called the SB-Riverside Urbanized Area. I feel people think of it as a region only the (SB-R Urbanized Area) rather than a metropolitan area (like you said above) and thats why I want it switched. I am also working on a SB-Riverside Urbanized Area Article (which according to you is the Inland Empire),is a region in the IE. All other articles read Inland Empire Metropolitan Area (which is ALL OF SAN BERNARDINO & RIVERSIDE COUNTIES, and thats what this article is about, NOT ABOUT THE SB-RIVERSIDE URBANIZED AREA). House1090 (talk) 22:14, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Do you have a reference to support your perspective on what is and isn't included in the Riv-SB-Ont metro area? Even if it does include all the desert cities, that still is different than including all of the two counties.  If you look at the web site Inland Empire.com, it states that the IE is a region that encompasses both counties.  That is very different than a metropolitan area, which, by definition, only refers to an urbanized area.  If you look at the Wiktionary definition of metro area, it says, “an area of population usually with a central or core city and surrounding towns or suburbs.”


 * You might be confusing the term metropolitan area with the Census Bureau’s term “Metropolitan Statistical Area”, but that is a very specific term, and a very different question. They do not use “Inland Empire” as part of the official name.  They use “Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario” as the name of the MSA.  If we wanted to name the article based on the Census Bureau’s MSA term, we would name it “Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario Metropolitan Statistical Area”, not “Inland Empire metropolitan area”.


 * Since “Inland Empire” is a non-specific term, and without an official definition, I don't believe it is possible for locals to misuse the name. Because of that, and for the other reasons I already stated, I still don’t feel it would be appropriate to rename this article the “Inland Empire metropolitan area”, but that is just my opinion. I'm always open to changing my opinion if supporting references can be cited. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 23:01, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes I have a source here:
 * This is the same source that I referenced. It refers to the IE as, "The largest region of Southern California", not as a metro area.  It is not a good source to support your argument.  MissionInn.Jim (talk) 00:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

And look at the population estimates the 2 counties combined totals to about 4.2 million people, while the SB-Riv. Urbanized area totals to abot 1.5 million. And I all ready tried changing the name tyo Riv.-SB-ONT before but was declined becaude the region is nick named Inalnd Empire, just like the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana article is named Los Angeles Metropolitan Area. House1090 (talk) 23:24, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Without a reference to an official defintion, I agree with the previous assessment. "Inland Empire" is a nickname, not an official designation. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 00:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Here is a list of Urban Areas, where SB-Riv are #25 (SB-Riv. Urbanized Area): Now here is the list of the RIV-SB-ONT Mteropolitan Area, AKA Inland Empire: Hopefully now you know the difference between the urbanized area, and the metropolitan area (MSA) House1090 (talk) 23:35, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that an urban area is different than an MSA, but you are using the term "metropolitan area", a generic term, interchangeably with "Metropolitan Statistical Area", a term defined by the Census Bureau. They mean different things.  Also, it is not accurate to say the Riv-SB-Ont MSA is an AKA for the "Inland Empire". MSA is a defined term with a specific meaning, but Inland Empire is a nickname that means different things to different people.  The Census Bureau does not use the term "Inland Empire".  I think what you need to support your argument is a reference to an agency that sets an official definition for the term "Inland Empire".  I don't think that exists though. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 00:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Greater Los Angeles is not an official deignation, yet it is the name for LA-OC-IE (LA-Long B.-Riv) do you understand were my arrgument comes from? Greater Los Angeles has no website, unlike the Inland Empire. [www.InlandEmpire.US] + [www.IEEP.com] and [www.VisitInlandEmpire.com] should be enough reference. House1090 (talk) 00:45, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I do understand what you are arguing, but you don't provide the right references to support your argument. Greater LA is an agglomeration, and it states that in the article, not a metro area, so it is not a good example. If you are making the argument that an article on the Riv-SB-Ont MSA should be created and labeled similar to the Los Angeles metropolitan area, then we would not use Inland Empire.  The LA Metro article does not use a nickname, it uses the name of the area's largest city.  Although the three links you provide do support the idea that Inland Empire is sometimes used to refer to the entirety of both counties, there are other web sites that state it to be something smaller than the two counties combined.  The IE's own article includes a map of a smaller area and clearly states that the boundaries of the IE are nebulous.  MissionInn.Jim (talk) 01:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, I dont mind if we dont change the name, I just want to make it clear that this article is about the Riv-SB-Ont metropolitan area, which includes Palm Springs, Neddles, 29 Palms, Barstow, Indio, All of San Bernardino and Riverside Counties. Which is why I suggested a name change in the fist place. House1090 (talk) 05:02, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Now I plan to create articles of the different ubregion of the Inland Empire, and when I mean Inland Empire I mean SB-Riv-Ont Metro (Inland Empire is the metros nick name), like the West Valley/End, the Metro region (SB-Riv-Perris), ect. You can find these regions in a map of the Inland Empire here : House1090 (talk) 05:12, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it is fine to include all of the two counties in an article named Inland Empire, since that is the broadest sense of the term. I hope I don't come across as trying to shoot down your idea.  I am only trying to explain my perspective.  It was nice of you to ask my opinion, and I hope you find my response interesting and helpful. Did you notice that the map you just referenced refers to the small pink area as the "metro area".  That is more in line with what I was trying to describe.  MissionInn.Jim (talk) 05:55, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Yea, I will always ask for your opinion. And yea that metro to the one being refered to is not the real metro (SB-Riv-Ont), is just a region, ontario, wasn't in thet map, ontario was in the West End map, and its the ONT is the name of the official metro (SB-Riv-Ont) which includes all of SB/Riv Counties. House1090 (talk) 22:10, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * When you say "the real metro", I assume you mean the MSA defined by the Census Bureau (CB). I agree the metro in the map is not the MSA defined by the CB, but it does point out what I was trying to say.  The terms "metro" and "metropolitan area" are general terms that include whatever urbanized area the speaker has in mind, but the "Metropolitan Statistical Area" (MSA), is a specifically defined term set by the CB.  The general term "metropolitan area" and the term "Metropolitan Statistical Area" are not equivelant terms. There are a number of articles on Wikipedia that confuse the two terms, and that should be cleaned up.  I'm not sure I want to take that on, but I'll give it some thought. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 06:20, 8 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Usually MSA are just simply Metropolitan areas, if not then what is a metropolitan area? House1090 (talk) 03:16, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * A metropolitan area (lower-case) is a general term that refers to an urbanized area with a central city (in our case two central cities). The area covered would depend on the context of the speaker, but it almost always refers to only the urbanized areas around the central city.  A Metropolitan Statistical Area (upper-case) is a specific term defined by the Census Bureau.  In the case of the Riv-SB-Ont MSA it covers the entire area of both counties, including non-urbanized areas.  I do agree with you that there are a lot of places in Wikipedia that use the term Metropolitan area when they really mean Metropolitan Statisical Area,  but I think they should be corrected.  On the other hand, maybe I am just being too much of a stickler, and need to just get over it.  I'm going to post a question here Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Urban studies and planning to see what response I get.  MissionInn.Jim (talk) 18:00, 11 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I see what you mean, but usually MSA's are shortened to Metropolitan Area (capitalized), even though its not official, its used widely in the media, so also used here in Wikipedia. Thats why I reccomended the name change in the first place. House1090 (talk) 21:24, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

To MissionInn.Jim, the other day House represented you as supporting the name change you are seen above arguing against:. Would you care to clarify? Amerique dialectics 17:42, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Metropolitan Area not region
This article is about the Riv-SB MSA not a region, User:Amerique keeps on adding region and reverting. That is vandalism. Also US Census states it as a metro (they use Riv-SB-Ont), wiki goes by US census, rather than personal knowledge. All of those edits suggest that the IE is a region rather than a metro. And I put in a better pic of the metro, those edits by Amerique, removed it. House1090 (talk) 03:50, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Now Inland Empire is a nickname not the official name which is Riv-SB-Ont, so if any one is infavor of a name change. House1090 (talk) 04:15, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment: It appears that House1090 thinks that the term "Inland Empire" is exclusively used to refer to the 2003 definition of the metropolitan statistical area centered on urban Riverside-San Bernardino, which is the entirety of Riverside and San Bernardino counties. This definition is the result of the use of counties as boundaries for building up metropolitan statistical areas. It is clear from the article itself that there are various boundaries and definitions for the Inland Empire. The article history also shows that the article was originally written about a fuzzy area. The external links of the article all refer to the Inland Empire as a region primarily. An option may be for House1090 to split off a separate metropolitan statistical area article. Although how much distinct content can be put there is questionable. --Polaron | Talk 03:58, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Finally, you understand, well your getting there. I want to start an article about the SB-Riv Urban Area which would be about SW & NW SB and Riv. Counties. The Inland Empire Article is already about the metro and includes all the cities in the metro, so it would be easier to start a new article about the SB-Riv Urban area. Now I would need all the support I can to create it. This is were you would come in. House1090 (talk) 04:07, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The State of California web site has a list of regions, including a map of the Inland Empire. I recommend this official usage by the State would be appropriate to describe the Inland Empire region.  Thanks, Alanraywiki (talk) 18:26, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


 * That map looks consistent with File:Inland empire within southern california.png. I would assume that the Census Bureau's population estimates for the "Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario" MSA are also based within those parameters, as the person who created that map, Ab189, claims in the map's edit summary: "Relief map is a work by the USGS, boundaries drawn by the US Census, put together by me." Based on this, I would also support narrowing down the definition of the IE to the population centers in the San Bernardino Valley and Victor Valley, and excluding the Palm Desert. (And also support the non-controversial use of "Inland Empire region" but that is beside the point.) Amerique dialectics  19:54, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, it seems the Census demarcation includes the eastern portion of the Pomona Valley, reflected in both maps above. Amerique <sup style="color:darkred;">dialectics  00:30, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Alanraywiki; I'm not sure the map you referenced should be considered an official state map. The link redirects you to the California Travel & Tourism Commission, a non-profit organization. It might however be as close to official as anything we might find. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 20:59, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

full protection, edit warring, consensus
I've reverted the page to an older version and fully protected it. Please discuss changes that should be made to this version and achieve consensus. If consensus is achieved, edits can be made by using the template. However, edit warring on the article is not acceptable, even if you are reverting to the consensus-approved version. This holds true when full-protection is lifted.

I see much of the discussion is occurring at WT:CAL. That's fine, but make sure it's kept centralized. I'd suggest handling the issues related to the article here, and handle other issues at WT:CAL.

Thanks, and hello from your northerly neighbor. tedder (talk) 07:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Optigan13 proposed a 1 revert restriction for House1090 at WT:CAL, which in the spirit of togetherness I also volunteered to observe. With regards to the article, Polaron's edits to lede were a definite improvement in that they introduced a simple, commonplace and non-controversial term that accurately described the area, and in so doing reflected the ambiguous boundaries discussed in the article, over House1090's insistent claim that may be summed up as "this is not a region because it is a metro area."


 * The fact that we are forced to have this argument illustrates the perils of Wikipedia as an open-source editing platform. But I will give it my best shot and attempt to follow Jim's example above in engaging House1090 as a scholar and a gentleman. In so doing, I move that the last version of the article before it was protected be restored and that the non-controversial and commonplace claim that the IE is a region, that is everywhere reflected in the sources as well as in reality, be maintained over any further insistence to the contrary further out. Regards to all, Amerique <sup style="color:darkred;">dialectics  01:59, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thats your opinion, I would rather give it to the readers straight rather than beating around the bush. The region is usually SW SB county, and NW Riv county, thats were the confusion comes in. The region is usually the SB-Riv urban area which has about more than 1.2M people, and the merto is this one which has more than 4.2M people. I will be starting the SB-Riv Urban area article, but I cant do it alone, I need your support. Look at cooljuno411's comment above he thought the IE was only a region, now he knows it is a metropolitan area rather than just a region, he just learned some information, thats what a encyclopedia is about, to give the facts straight and to inform the reader, not to tell the reader what he thinks. House1090 (talk) 05:22, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


 * You need support to copy content from some articles onto other articles, like at San Bernardino Valley? Well, you have my word that I won't enforce REDUNDANT on that. But to the point, I maintain that Polaron's version of this article's lead was a more accurate and less confused introduction to the article's content, and I would rather not have more people adopt the opinions you have from reading Wikipedia. As an aside, I also advise against removing the Greater Los Angeles Area templates someone just posted all over the IE area city pages. Really. Just advising you in advance not to do that. Amerique <sup style="color:darkred;">dialectics  06:09, 10 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Who said I was going to that? This article needs to be about the metropolitan area, while we create a new one about the region. SEE RESPONSE BELOW. House1090 (talk) 19:12, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

MissionInn.Jim's position on Name Change vs. split of article
On another discussion thread it was said that I supported a name change for the Inland Empire (California) article, but that is not accurate. I have argued above that the article should not be renamed. I would not oppose splitting the existing article and creating a new article named Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario Metropolitan Statistical Area, but if we split the article, I would expect the two articles to have very different content.

From my perspective the term Inland Empire should not be used interchangeably with the term Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario Metropolitan Statistical Area (RSO MSA). The two terms represent different concepts. Inland Empire has no official designation. It is a nickname of the Riverside-San Bernardino area that means different things to different people, and only sometimes encompasses the entirety of both counties. The RSO MSA has a very specific designation that is defined by the Census Bureau.

If we create two separate articles, the RSO MSA article would contain specific demographics and other statistical information about the two-county region, and the Inland Empire article would be much briefer than it is now, and would explain the concept, etymology of the term, and possibly a brief history of the Riverside-San Bernardino area.

It is not meaningful to describe the Inland Empire in terms of demographics and statistics because the term is not geographically specific enough to isolate those things. Demographics and statistics change depending on the context of how the Inland Empire term is used. The same can be said about trying to list famous people, schools, tallest buildings, and other specific information about the Inland Empire. Those things might be appropriate for an RSO MSA article, but not an article about the Inland Empire.

Because the Inland Empire and the RSO MSA are closely related, I am inclined to use one article to cover both topics. If we keep the article as it is, trying to cover both topics, we should explain the two terms, and make sure we are clear when we are referring to one versus the other.

I hope this helps clarify my position. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 16:44, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey, thanks for your clarification. The problem, I would say, with using the Census designation is that it probably only sampled population statistics from those particular distinct urban areas, and not for example from the Palm Desert or areas further out. I realize the IE is a fuzzy area, but to the extent we have "hard data" on it, the MSA data would be what we have. I agree with you in that a separate MSA article would be redundant and that the "IE" itself as a distinct cultural region is not limited to the bounds of the MSA, but I would say we could keep the MSA at the heart of the article and accurately say something to the effect of "some sources outside of the Census Bureau and State of California include the entirety of the Pomona Valley and Palm Desert in the IE, others put the boundaries to the extent of the counties, but any actual outer boundaries are indeterminate." Amerique <sup style="color:darkred;">dialectics  17:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The metropolitan area is two counties SB and Riv, while the region is from the Pomona Valley to the Banning pass south to Temecula (I think its the San Jacinto MTS. not sure. The proposed article would be about the region which includes LA county. Thats why I proposed a name change from IE to Inland Empire Metropolitan Area and the new article Inland Empire Region. It will stop confusion, and edit wars. A region is divided by geographical features while a metropolitan area is mainly divided by counties. MissionJim.Inn sorry if I took your responses the wrong way, I guess I did not understood you correctly, my apology. House1090 (talk) 19:09, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

It

"Incorporated Cities"
The link which shows the source for median household income is broken, furthermore these are not consistent with the census numbers. This section should be updated to show the correct numbers instead of the pie in the sky numbers listed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.143.168 (talk) 08:09, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Definition of Inland Empire
I would like to start a list of sources that provide a definition or description of what the Inland Empire is. I am hoping it will help all of us come to some agreement on how the Inland Empire aritcle should be approached. If anyone has a source that gives some description or definition of the Inland Empire, please add it to the list below. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 19:50, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Sleeping Giant a book by Rob Leicester Wagner states that the term was likely conjured up by real estate developers during the first decade fo the 20th centurey to lure potential residents. This source includes the following references and observations:
 * The Riverside Enterprise used the term in 1914 to refer only to Riverside County.
 * The San Bernardino Sun used the term in 1920 to refer only to its own circulation area.
 * Tom Paterson, local historian, said in 1992 that the term "comprises roughly the northwest corner of Riverside County and the southwest corner of San Bernardino County".
 * The author (Rob Wagner) states that today the following cities in LA County; Claremont, San Dimas, Pomona, and La Verne, consider themselves part of the Inland Empire.
 * Inland Empire Weekly includes Claremont (in LA County) in its distribution area.
 * The State of California web site has a list of regions, including a map of the Inland Empire. This is from my comment in a section above. Alanraywiki (talk) 20:14, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Inland Empire magazine includes Claremont, Diamond Bar and La Verne (3 LA County cities) and Fallbrook, Pala, and Valley Center (3 San Diego County cities) in its restaurant & entertainment guides. Notably absent are the desert and high desert communities. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 20:40, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The full title reads Inland Empire; The Region's Premier Monthly. Note the use of the word region here and on Alanraywiki's entry. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 21:06, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The Wikipedia State of California template lists Inland Empire as a region, and Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario as a Metro area. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 06:10, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The Inland Empire Economic Partnership refers to the IE as a region, and provides maps that imply that all, and only, Riverside and SB counties are in the region.
 * InlandEmpire.US refers to the IE as a region, and the list of cities implies that all, and only, Riverside and SB Counties are in the region.
 * The Inland Empire Tourism Council seems to imply that all, and only, Riverside and SB Counties are part of the IE, but then provides a map that labels the Riverside-San Bernardino urbanized area as the Metro region.

Comments

 * Comment It is called the Metro region because it is the IE's downtown or urban area, not because is the metropolitan area. Thats pretty obvious. House1090 (talk) 01:25, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * (The above comment by House1090 is a reference to the Inland Empire Tourism Council source.)
 * House; your comment comes across as defensive. I don't understand why you felt it was necessary to make this comment. It doesn't seem to add to the information provided by the sources, so I moved your comment to a special subsection.  MissionInn.Jim (talk) 05:45, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Comment Thanks for doing this. I've been trying to find the Census Bureau data AB189 used to make File:Inland empire within southern california.png, but their files require specialized GIS software to open. Amerique <sup style="color:darkred;">dialectics  01:06, 16 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Those sources were the ones I found down below, stating that the IE is SB and Riv Counties ONLY. Again, now you know the name Inland Empire can mean both the region and metro, since the metro is only SB and Riv Counties. House1090 (talk) 01:11, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I meant real GIS data. Re: "Inland Empire can mean both the region and metro." Fortunately, I already knew this. Amerique <sup style="color:darkred;">dialectics 01:26, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * At least we know not to include LA in here. I think if this is going to be about both the region/metro, we can first start of saying in the first sentence that its a metropolitan area, then just refer to it as a region, since a metro is more important than a region. How does this sound? House1090 (talk) 01:30, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * What makes a metropolitan area more important than a region? They may be different, but I do not see a difference in importance.  Alanraywiki (talk) 01:34, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The US government does. The fact that it is recognized as a metropolitan area (msa) is more important. I honestly dont believe the region is all of SB and Riv counties, I think it stretches from Po Valley to Banning Pass, SB Mnts. to Temecula, but that would have to be another article. What I am trying to do is please everyone, so no one gets left out from contributing. The IE is a metro and a region, whay cant we use both names (since you guys dont want to start seperate articles)? House1090 (talk) 01:39, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * That sounds like the phrasing you have been edit warring to keep since...??? Polaron's phrasing was better because "MSA" is a specialized term used to describe the region, but the region as a whole does not necessarily fit within the MSA. Amerique <sup style="color:darkred;">dialectics  01:45, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Be specific what does not fit in the metropolitan area (msa)?. All of Sb and Riv counties are in the Riv-SB MSA. House1090 (talk) 01:49, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * House; You seem to be making a clear distinction between the terms region and metropolitan area, as if they are mutually exclusive. In my view, all metropolitan areas are a type of region, but not all regions are metropolitan areas.  Region is just a broad general term that refers to a subdivision of a broader entity.  Since metropolitan areas are subdivisions of a larger entity, i.e. the State, then they are just one type of region.  If you define region some other way, please provide that definition, or reference to the definition, so I can understand your perspective better? MissionInn.Jim (talk) 06:05, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

I dont really mind if we use region, but what I am saying is a region is divided geographically, while a metropolitan area is divided by counties, and cities. What I want is to make sure that we use metropolitan area in article. At least in the begining to let the reader know its a metropolitan area. Any where else we can refer to it as a region. I dont have sources but thats the way I view it. House1090 (talk) 00:39, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Inland Empire Name Change (continued)
Ok this is where I request a name change again to the Riverside-San Bernardino Metropolitan Area (2 largest cities), all though I would like to keep Inland Empire. Now Inland Empire can also be used to describe the entire metropolitan area, as does KCAL 9 and KCBS 2. They use "Inland Empire Reporter" and he covers any where from Barstow to Indio to Temecula to Big Bear. Both KCAL 9 and KCBS 2 are major newscast/television stations, thats why I would like to keep the Inland Empire name. Now KNBC and KABC, I believe also use the term Inland Empire to describe the Bi-County Metropolitan Area (MSA), because they are the media most people now call SB and Riv Counties the Inland Empire. Thats why I think tis article should be renamed Inland Empire (Metropolitan Area), and start a new one called Inland Empire (Region), both of which will be different. The name Inland Empire can mean both the metropolitan area and the region. Also by having to seperate articles this can solve some of the confusion here on wiki. House1090 (talk) 01:26, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi House; I moved your comment above to a new section.  The section I started was intended to list sources that demonstrate the varying uses of the term Inland Empire.  It wasn't meant to continue the name change discussion.  Once we have a good list of sources we can use those sources as a basis to decide how to procede with the existing Inland Empire article.  Regardless of whether we create any new articles, I feel we need to come to an agreement about the existing article first.  That way we can get the protection removed and move forward.  I believe you had some sources that you referenced in the past.  Please feel free to add them in the section above.  Unfortunately we can't use the claims you provided above because you did not identify any sources.  For example, when you claim, "...most people now call SB and Riv Counties the Inland Empire", you didn't identify a survey or other source that supports that claim.
 * Regarding your suggestion to create two articles named Inland Empire, one for the MSA and one for the region, I would strongly oppose that. An encyclopedia is supposed to provide information in a clear and concise manner.  Creating two California articles name Inland Empire would confuse the reader.  One article that explains the varying uses would suffice.  MissionInn.Jim (talk) 07:04, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Its okay, yea take a look is states the area is a region, but it includes the high and low deserts. I think that a metropolitan area (msa) article should be a priority over a region, a metropolitan area is more important. Now as for confusion, we can state "This article is about a metropolitan area, for other uses' see Inland Empire (Region)". I mean most major cities have articles for their region and metropolitan area, why cant the IE have one? Again media uses Inland Empire for the metropolitan area/bi-county area. PS: I am looking over more sources, I have been busy. House1090 (talk) 23:14, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

House 1090 Source's The name Inland Empire can mean all of SB and Riv Counties. House1090 (talk) 23:31, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) The Inland Empire Economic Program:
 * 2) What cities are in the Inland Empire? Go here:
 * Map:
 * 1) Inland Empire tourist page:
 * 2) What regions are IN the Inland Empire? See here:
 * 3) Riverside & San Bernardino Counties in the media aka Inland Empire:

Can we put more demographic statistics in the first paragraph? There is such a brevity to it, such a lacuna of information that really, the superficiality of the first paragraph leads one to perceive the article as something more akin to a brief summary, or baseless, factless puff piece. Word? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.48.245.49 (talk) 22:26, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
 * house 1090, your sources are commercial. although i am not saying that they are wrong, excluding pomona from the inland valley is wrong. inland empire.us is a commercial purpose site. normally the inland area is defined the San Bernardino Mountains,San Gabriel Mountains, san jose hills, santa ana mountains, san jancinto mountains, and the hills near pechanga Indian reservation75.30.126.40 (talk) 03:37, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay, the US census v. your word? I think I will go with the US census. There are a lot of source's on my side not just one. How many do you have? (I thought we were over this) House1090 (talk) 04:49, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
 * actually most of your sources are commercial. however inland empire is normally referred to the regional area around riverside and san bernardino. anywhere outside that area is never referred as the inland empire 75.27.239.163 (talk) 07:50, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

New introduction to article
I hope I haven't stirred up a hornets nest, but since I was not involved in the original edit wars regarding this article, I thought I would try my hand at revising the intro to see if I could address everyone's concerns. I feel the intro still needs work, but I would like to request that you provide your feedback here, and give me the opportunity to address any remaining issues.

If it turns out my approach just does not seem to be agreeable, I will not be hurt if we decide to revert it, but I would like to be given the opportunity to do that myself, if that is the group's decision. Thank you for the opportunity and consideration. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 13:08, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Re: "Being a popularly derived name the Inland Empire does not have definite boundaries, but they roughly aligne with the United States Census Bureau's Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario Metropolitan Statistical Area, encompassing the entire counties of San Bernardino and Riverside."


 * One thing after all this debate that I am unclear on is if the county boundaries demarcate the MSA boundaries, or if the county lines simply contain the MSA as a smaller unit with a larger whole. If the MSA is viewed as the populated areas within the counties, then its "boundaries" as it were would mean the extent of the region's urban development, rather than "encompassing the entire counties," as only the southwestern portion of the counties has been extensively developed.


 * Considered as a Venn diagram, I would say the MSA can be considered the core component of the IE. We can't really discuss the IE without discussing those cities. But there is room for debate as to what relationship Pomona, Palm Springs, Barstow, Needles etc have with this MSA. So, I would rather we rephrase that to read something to the effect of:


 * "...the Inland Empire does not have definite boundaries, but the Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario Metropolitan Statistical Area constitutes the region's urban core."


 * Amerique <sup style="color:darkred;">dialectics 21:09, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment: Where do you get your sources from? House1090 (talk) 00:50, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Several of the sources seem to imply that the term "Inland Empire" does not always apply to the entirety of the two counties. The urban area is much smaller in extent than the two counties. But because MSAs use counties as building blocks, if any significant portion of the urban area is in a county, the entire county gets included in the MSA. Strictly speaking, an MSA cannot be the region's urban core. A more accurate way of saying this is that the urbanized area that is the basis for the MSA is the region's urban core but that is probably too esoteric for the lead paragraph. --Polaron | Talk 00:02, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The MSA is both counties together, that I know, see both counties population they add up to 4.1 million people. I agree with Polaron, except lets keep it small and say its a metropolitan area in the begining. I also agree the Urban area is the SB-Riv urban area. Also many sources I found state the IE as Both Counties (WHOLE) as the Inland Empire. I would like to say I also like the current version, cant we keep that, and end this? House1090 (talk) 01:00, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi Amerique: The definition I followed for the Riv-SB-Ont MSA is here. It states, "A metro area contains a core urban area of 50,000 or more population, and a micro area contains an urban core of at least 10,000 (but less than 50,000) population. Each metro or micro area consists of one or more counties and includes the counties containing the core urban area, as well as any adjacent counties that have a high degree of social and economic integration (as measured by commuting to work) with the urban core." This link shows that Riverside and San Bernardino counties are the only components of the Riv-SB-Ont MSA. Since the definition says the metro or micro "consists of one or more counties" (including the counties that contain the core urban area), and since the only components listed are the counties, and the urban core is not listed as a separate component, I understand it to mean the entire county. Do you see this differently? MissionInn.Jim (talk) 05:38, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hello again: After reflection, I believe I might have missed a secondary point that you had. For the above stated reasons I do believe the RSO MSA, by definition, encompasses the entirety of both counties. I can see now that I have implied too strongly that the Inland Empire term is primarily associated with the RSO MSA.  I think that is part of what you were saying, and Polaron and House1090 seem to agree.  Let me give it some thought to see how that can be adjusted. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 14:19, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I concur with your assessment. Beyond that, perhaps the lead should be built up more to provide more of an overview of the solidly-referenced main points of the article? Lead guidelines are here: WP:LEAD. Amerique <sup style="color:darkred;">dialectics  17:19, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and made some additional adjustments to the wording of the first lead paragraph, but I understand what you mean about the lead needing to provide a better summary of the articles main points. If you have any suggestions, please share. I think it is important though to make sure the lead does not become too long. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 07:53, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I think I am finally satisfied with the opening lead paragraph. How does everyone else feel? Although it took a bit of effort, I am not opposed to reverting the whole thing, if you don't feel it helped or didn't properly address the edit war issues. If everyone is satisfied, I am willing to expand the lead section further to incorporate other main points of the article, as suggested by Amerique. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 17:50, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Riv-SB-Ont MSA

 * this article uses info about the MSA. now since the census is around the corner, that may change, so instead it may become the Riv-SB-Font-Ont msa since fontana is almost the same population of San bernardino. in other words, a portion of this article may need to be revised towards the end of this year.Javiern (talk) 08:11, 18 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Were did you get this from? Also SB's population exceeds 200K, near 210K, while fontana does not even have more than 190K. House1090 (talk) 17:27, 18 January 2010 (UTC)


 * i know but if you read my comment carefully instead of being a stubborn mule you would have noticed that i said that it may change from riv-sb-ont to riv-sb-font-ont on the basis of population. ontario in the 2000 census was the third largest city in the region. now fontana is bigger than ontario(and almost the same population as san bernardino)never said it was the same). thats why i said it may have to be revised towards the end of the year to reflect the new changes. dude, you have to learn to control your temper. reading the other portions of the talk page, you seem to only want to put your knowledge but no one else. all i did is give a suggestion to revise the article towards the end of this year to reflect the new census information. Javiern (talk) 01:42, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * im sorry for being rude i also need to control my temperJaviern (talk) 01:48, 19 January 2010 (UTC)


 * First off, the census only uses 3 cities, never 4. If you are not sure dont suggest it. Now SB and fontanas population are not even close, so again your showing your ignorance. Its like comparing LA's population vs. San Diego or San Fran. And how do I need to control my temper? I did not talk to you in a rude way. Now you need to take some time off and take look at Civility, so you can learn to be polite and use some manners.House1090 (talk) 05:13, 19 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I would just like to point out that that in itself was very rude and could have been rephrased more politely. SoCal L.A. (talk) 23:58, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Other Cities
I removed a lot of Other Cities and House added Palm Springs and 29 Palms. The reason i removed them is because they are not major cities of the Inland Empire. Though they may be cities of their respective regions. I still believe the list to be much to long. Just take a look at other metro pages. SoCal L.A. (talk) 03:15, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Concur with SoCal, but it is not a huge issue. Amerique <sup style="color:darkred;">dialectics 03:56, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Well maybe we can remove Corona? What do you think? There are other more important cities than Cornoa (for example). Also keep in mind that the Inland Empire is a large area so it may have a little more (2 more) cities than the average metropolitan area article. House1090 (talk) 05:47, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps large by U.S. standards, but small in comparison to global populations. Anyways, you know more about the Inland Empire so i would keep the list to 4-5 at the max, having only the most important or largest cities. SoCal L.A. (talk) 23:23, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay thanks. Also, I mean in terms of land, and the IE is the 25th largest in the Americas in population. House1090 (talk) 23:42, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


 * What about 29 Palms? It doesn't look terribly important to the region as a whole. I think if we take one more off it would be just fine!


 * What about in regard the world? I'm just curious as to how large it is. SoCal L.A. (talk) 23:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Twentynine Palms has a Marine Corps base, and the economic center for the Morongo Basin. I was thinking of changing Rancho Cucamonga with Barstow as Barstow is more important. Anyways I am flexible with this. House1090 (talk) 00:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Inland Empire which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 03:15, 6 March 2010 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Information.svg|25px]] Welcome to Wikipedia! I am glad to see you are interested in discussing a topic. However, as a general rule, talk pages are for discussion related to improving the article, not general discussion about the topic. If you have specific questions about certain topics, consider visiting our reference desk and asking them there instead of on article talk pages. By the way, the New York Times, Los Angeles Times, and US Census Bureau disagree with you. --TorriTorri(Talk to me!) 06:10, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Murrieta and Temecula
Should they be in the infobox under "other cities"? My rationale for adding them is that they are both relatively large cities, definitely bigger than 29 Palms, which is already on the list. --TorriTorri(talk/contribs) 04:34, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the largest one between the two, since they are both in the San Jaciento Valley. House1090 (talk) 04:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Thoughts on the opening paragraph.
The paragraph opens, "The Inland Empire is a metropolitan region". I think it should be changed to, "The Inland Empire is an urbanized area" or something that doesn't use metropolitan since people might confuse it with it actually being a metropolitan area, even using, "The Inland Empire is a two county region" would work. SoCal L.A. (talk) 00:02, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Nope. See above. House1090 (talk) 00:08, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Chiming in from my sabbatical to actually concur with House on something. The IE actually is thought of as a metropolitan area, believe it or not. "Region" is about the most inclusive, generic term to use that allows for the various ways of determining its boundaries and defining its characteristics. "Urbanized area" is too specialized... and only a small portion of the two counties are urbanized. I would have no objection to "two county region" but am not going to get into a fight over this. Amerique <sup style="color:darkred;">dialectics  01:32, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

How can a primarily suburban area be regarded as "urban" or "metropolitan" by the US Census?Cbflagginc (talk) 18:32, 12 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I just feel that i gets confused. I also don't want to start an argument, but i think two county region is a better description. SoCal L.A. (talk) 02:10, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * "Two county region" is also fine with me... but let's wait and see if there is any other feedback;-) Amerique <sup style="color:darkred;">dialectics  02:20, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I think no one wants to start an argument but we already discussed this before. House1090 (talk) 02:36, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Amerique and i are in favor of "two county region". House isn't. Now we wait for other feedback. SoCal L.A. (talk) 04:54, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Not to be rude or anything, but shouldn't the "I" be capitalized in the sentence above. SoCal L.A. is a good editor but really needs to improve spelling habits. Western Pines (talk) 06:53, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I understand the term "Inland Empire" to be a vague non-specific term. Depending on who is talking and in what context it sometimes refers to the two-county region, sometimes a much smaller region, and sometimes it even includes Eastern LA County.  In my opinion, claiming the term refers only to the two-county region would be incorrect and misleading.  The only thing you can say with certainty is that the term "Inland Empire" refers to an area in and around the two cities of Riverside and San Bernardino.  Sometimes that is all of both counties, sometimes it is not. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 15:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I am in agreement with Jim. The wording we have now ("metropolitan region") seems to me to be the best descriptor. --TorriTorri(Talk to me!) 18:47, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm ok with that too. It was painstaking work to get to that description in the first place. Amerique <sup style="color:darkred;">dialectics  19:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Jim, Torritorri, and Amerique. House1090 (talk) 22:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * That makes sense Jim. It should stay. Thank you for always backing up what you believe with persuasive information and arguments. SoCal L.A. (talk) 23:46, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The "Inland Empire" in CA is a comparative NEW regional nickname brazenly 'borrowed' from the Original, real IE in the NW only within less than 50 years at most. To imply or try and state otherwise in an online 'encyclopedia' (as if it's been in use since the early 20th century) is disingenuous and flat out wrong on many levels, even if it's done without any malicious intent (or knowledge). The "IE" in CA was known as the "Orange Empire", never the "Inland Empire" prior to the mid to early 50s. I'd point folks to educate themselves, for example, by reading even one of the new "Inland Empire's" own news sources, where at least some in the new "IE" have no qualms with confirming the truth that the "IE" name in CA is nothing more than a marketing ploy and an unimaginative one at that to have no ideas of their own where they feel the need to have to steal another region's nickname as their own (I mean this is no different or no less absurd and shameless than if the charleton "IE" in CA decided one morning to suddenly call itself "New England" or "The Big Sky Country" and make up a phony history to back it up): http://www.inlandempire.us/news/2006/01/how-inland-empire-got-its-name.html. That is why it's a "vague non-specific" term for the "IE" in CA, because it has no reason to go by that name, while the original Inland Empire does from its very founding. Hope that helps & you might want to update the article to address this actual origin with the name switch from "Orange Empire" to "IE" in the 50s. Peace!72.90.204.68 (talk) 22:15, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Before ascribing malicious motives and insulting the population of an entire region, many of whom either don't care or had nothing to do with the name, do try to cite an actual reliable source. Reliable sources usually aren't press releases, and don't cite Wikipedia itself for their information. --TorriTorri(talk/contribs) 15:29, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

I never started hearing the abbreviation "IE" until the past decade or so, around the time people started calling Orange County "the OC." Plus, it seems to be primarily used in gang culture, car club culture, etc. I see it on tattoos, truck decals, and douchebag t-shirts. I don't know that it should be regarded as a mainstream colloquialism.Cbflagginc (talk) 18:32, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I went up to Orange County recently, and at my hotel, I watched local news. Channel 7 and some others referred to the IE quite a few times. I agree, it's new to me. Back in the 80's, when I got channel 4, 5 and 11 on cable (I live in San Diego), the "IE" was never a term. But now that I hear it on all their local TV news, I'd say it's valid. Just an opinion from my own experiences. What you say makes sense, too, though. YellowAries2010 (talk) 18:43, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I also have an issue with the sentence in the opening paragraph that states, "While some sources, such as The New York Times[4][5] and Los Angeles Times[6][7][8][9][10] have referred to this area as the Inland Empire, residents of certain areas within the two counties, such as the Victor,[citation needed] Coachella, and Temecula Valleys, consider themselves separate from the IE.[11]" Yes, there is a citation there, but perhaps it should be, "some residents" rather than "residents." It's worth noting that the San Bernardino County Sun covers news in the Victor Valley and has acknowledged it in pieces that address Inland Empire data and statistics (although the Victor Valley has their own paper, the Victor Valley Daily Press, as well). As for Temecula and Coachella valleys, these are in Riverside County; and The Press Enterprise (essentially the official Riverside County newspaper) avoids using the term "Inland Empire" altogether. They coined their own label, "Inland Southern California," a few years ago - and yes, they include Temecula and Coachella in their news coverage.Cbflagginc (talk) 18:22, 12 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The bi-county metropolitan area is nicknamed the Inland Empire, however its not the formal name the US Census has designated. However, I think it should be some residents not all. House1090 (talk) 02:08, 13 January 2011 (UTC)