Talk:Inland Northern American English

Merge?
Why was the Northeast Pennsylvania English article merged with this one? It's a distinct dialect from the one described in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alistoriv (talk • contribs) 03:00, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree... The Northeast PA dialect is far different from these ones. It is a totally different pronunciation of words. The words are pronounced much more nasally. Football3434 (talk) 02:45, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Untitled
If South Bend is out of the included area, then someone needs to change the map to not include South Bend, Indiana and Michiana. cntrlaltdel33t

Article needs to be renamed
This article needs to be renamed Inland American English - as it's not representative on Central Canadian English. There is no relationship between Central Canadian English and the English of the region discussed in this article.


 * I don't think you quite understand the meaning of the title. It's called Inland Northern American English, not Inland North American English.  It's referring to inland northern region of "America" (the United States).  Maybe you have a problem with the United States calling itself "America", but that doesn't belong here. Thegryseone (talk) 22:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Notable Speakers
I have doubts about Neil Armstrong and John Glenn. They weren't born in the part of Ohio that has the shift. If it can be proven somehow, then fine. 208.104.45.20 02:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, looking at the article, I'm thinking that it'd be best not to continue piling in every notable person vaguely connected to the 40+ million person region covered by this dialect. Rather include a few, relatively clear and unambiguous examples that most are familiar with and can playback in their heads. I'm pulling an existing paragraph of supposed speakers and copying it here:


 * Notable speakers of the Inland North Dialect include US President Ronald Reagan, former Governor of Massachusetts Mitt Romney, actors, Dennis Farina, Dennis Franz, Gene Wilder, Jeff Daniels, John Belushi, Bill Murray, George Wendt and Chris Farley; US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton; actresses Bonnie Hunt and Jami Gertz; filmmaker Michael Moore; financial adviser Suze Orman; talk show host Steve Wilkos; and musicians Iggy Pop, Andrew W.K., and Bob Seger.

For now, Hillary Clinton, Michael Moore, John Belushi, Suze Orman, for better or worse, impress me as relatively unambiguous examples that many current readers can "hear" easily, aren't overly influenced by other accents and dialects (at least when Hillary isn't giving a speech in the South...), and impress the reader with the features of the dialect and accents.

None of the claims, however, have cited sources, which is a problem. Additions and changes should have some basis cited, as there are many notable people who speak this in this dialect to varying degrees. Persons who actually grew up in the region would be less controversial inclusions, as well. -- RVJ (talk) 16:40, 10 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Here's a source quoting Labov identifying Dennis Franz as a NCS speaker: http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/0506/feature4_2.html AJD (talk) 06:44, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Wrong about Cleveland
I have lived in Cleveland for 20 years and Milwaukee for 4. The accent in Milwaukee fits this description. Cleveland does not. I would put Cleveland together with Pittsburg in terms of accent.


 * You would be wrong. Cleveland is one of the flagship cities of the Northern Cities Shift and has little in common with Pittsburgh linguistically. AJD 03:47, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I mean no offense, but I have to agree with AJD on this one. He is right. Pittsburgh has its own thing going on. Linguists like William Labov have done lots of research about this, and they know what they are talking about. 208.104.45.20 18:58, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I concur. I am from Cleveland and many people definitely speak with traits of the Inland North American accent.  I just don't think it is as pronounced as someone, say, from Chicago or Milwaukee.  This is especially true in the suburbs and exurbs of Cleveland, where there are a lot of non-natives who were not raised hearing the Inland North accent. Danflave (talk) 23:50, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

The map's caption specifically excludes Erie Pennsylvania. I think it should be modified to reflect that Inland Northern American English is spoken across coastal northwest Pennsylvania. Dzmijewski (talk) 21:23, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Removed Comment about Standard American
That comment was not sourced and I have never read that in any literature about American English dialects. So I have removed it until someone provides and academic source. Azalea pomp 03:13, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Wiki Contradictions
This article which is also sourced lists another origin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_American Azalea pomp 04:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm: not quite, I think. This article says that "General American" was based on the Inland Northern speech of the mid–20th century. General American says the present-day dialect most similar to General American is that of Iowa and Nebraska—not that that's its historical origin. And it's not surprising that that is the dialect most similar to the Inland North of the mid-20th century: it's basically the area of the historical North that didn't undergo any of the Northern Cities Shift features. AJD 06:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

St. Louis
In the December 2005 issue of National Geographic, an article by Naomi Schwartz includes a regional dialect map of the United States which displays the Inland North dialect map extending through some of central Illinois down to St. Louis. Shouldn't this information be added? Note, St. Louis people don't say pop, they say soda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.203.163 (talk) 03:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Brian Doyle-Murray
I question whether he could have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift in his speech, if that is your definition of being a speaker of this dialect. The trigger of this shift is the diphthongization of /æ/ into /ɪə/ (æ-tensing), a change identified as early as the 1960s. He was born in 1945. That means he would have already been 15 years old in 1960. I'm quite sure that we learn our dialect earlier on in our development. I imagine he speaks the way people in Chicago spoke before the Northern Cities Vowel Shift. I could be wrong though. The shift could have began earlier. That's just not what it says in the NCVS article on Wikipedia. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 04:22, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * If the NCVS has first identified in the 1960s, that doesn't mean it didn't exist before that—merely that nobody had described it before that. AJD (talk) 15:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks AJD. Diction is precise and important on Wikipedia. I should have known that. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 21:11, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

maybe it is just me
But I have noticed here in the Detroit area that a lot of two syllable words whose second syllable is begins with a "t" are pronounced like d's - for example "water" is said like "wader" or sometimes "wad-der", same goes for "better". Or is this common through out America? User:starzaz 11:56, 16 December 2007


 * That's a phenomenon called "flapping" or "tapping," and it is indeed common throughout America. The "t"s aren't usually quite realized as "d", but as a slightly different consonant sound.  The linked article is a little technical, but you might find it interesting nonetheless.  --Confiteordeo (talk) 06:01, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes indeed. It is so common in the United States, that it sounds weird when a person here does not use an alveolar flap in words like "water". 208.104.45.20 (talk) 21:50, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Inaccurate Map
The blue area of the map in this article does not correspond exactly with the region surrounded by all three lines in the Northern Cities Vowel Shift article. Northwestern Indiana is not surrounded by all three lines in the NCVS article, but it is highlighted blue in this article. I think Confiteordeo should fix this problem, as he is the author of this map. The map in the NCVS article is based on the published data in the Atlas of North American English, so I doubt it is incorrect. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 21:20, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Katie Holmes
I realize that she is from Toledo. However, Toledo isn't a part of the "core" of the NCVS, so she doesn't have the first stage of the shift (the raising and diphthongization of /æ/ to [ɪə]). As a person who is not from the Inland North, I see that stage as the most noticeable part of the shift (people from there generally have a difficult time noticing there own accents). Thus, if people come to this article, look at the notable speakers, and see Katie Holmes' name there, they will have a difficult time detecting her accent, and will go away thinking that the Inland North is basically an "accentless" region of the United States. This is completely untrue. That is why when I add speakers to the notable speakers section, I try to pick more advanced speakers from the "core" region of the NCVS (like Mike North and Michael Moore). That way, the average person from another dialect region can easily detect their accents. I could see how most people would have a difficult time noticing the backing of /ʌ/ and /ɛ/ in someone's speech.
 * The dialect is not uniform across the entire region in which it is spoken, and it is good to provide examples of local variation. Katie does indeed dipthongize [æ] to [ɪə] (watch her interview with David Letterman,) and she especially fronts [ɑ] to [a] (listen to her pronunciation of words like "on, "job," and "mom.")  Also, please quit trying to tell me that I can't recognize an accent just because I speak it.  You do not own this article and are not the ultimate authority here.  Other Wikipedians are allowed to contribute to this article, too.  --Confiteordeo (talk) 05:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that people who live in the area can notice it the best, actually. I can always tell when someone is from this area... immediately. This is because I live in the area, and this is because it sounds natural to me. Trust me, Toledo is known for having this dialect. Native Toledoans speak exactly like Michael Moore. You cannot distinguish a Toledoan's dialect from that of one from anywhere in this area, & that includes Holmes. This is why Toledo is included in this article.  нмŵוτн τ  18:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

People are the ultimate authority here. I am a person. I will continue to edit whenever and whatever I want to edit. I don't see how Katie Holmes could possibly diphthongize [æ] to [ɪə] when if you look at Toledo on this map, it is not surrounded by the red isogloss. They say Americans suck at reading maps, but I didn't know you guys sucked that much. So either that map is completely wrong, or you guys have terrible ears. I don't really see either one of you as experts on this subject, so nothing you say is going to change what I think. Believe it or not, I actually have reasons for the things I do. I don't just pull stuff out of my ass. If either one of you guys were confident enough on your own, then you wouldn't have to double team me. Thank you. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 02:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't have a clue whether Katie Holmes has the NCVS. But at any rate, in the Atlas of North American English, Toledo is a fringe community of the NCVS: It is inside most of the isoglosses that define the Shift but not all of them. That obviously doesn't imply that any given speaker from Toledo will or won't have the Shift. AJD (talk) 05:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes; however, it does imply that any given speaker from Toledo will not have the first part of the shift, i.e., the diphthongization of [æ] to [ɪə]. If this is not the case, then Toledo should be surrounded by the red isogloss on that map. Please do not get off to a bad start with me by taking a tone of superiority. I already dislike you. There is no need to write "obviously". Well I guess there is if you are a haughty person. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 18:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * In ANAE, Toledo is in fact within the isogloss for the first part of the shift, namely the raising of /æ/; this is a fairly expansive isogloss that encompasses Fort Wayne, Cedar Rapids, and Minneapolis as well as serious NCVS cities. What it's not within is the isogloss for having /æ/ raised higher than /ɛ/, which is a more stringent criterion (and also involves the lowering of /ɛ/, which is not part of the first stage of the shift). And the fact that the two ANAE speakers in Toledo don't have /æ/ higher than /ɛ/ does not imply that no one from Toledo will have /æ/ higher than /ɛ/, as you say; it just gives us reason to be moderately surprised if someone does. It's clearly a boundary community. AJD (talk) 19:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Whether or not Toledo is one of the red parts on that map, someone from Toledo could still have that accent. That can't be argued. There are people in Toledo with that accent, and she is one of them... but it's really not important enough to me to get into an edit war. She has this accent, but she doesn't need to be in this article. No one does.  нмŵוτн τ  19:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that no one needs to be in this article. Maybe we should consider taking that entire section out of the article. It seems kind of stupid to me. But as long as it's there, I'm going to edit it. I don't want to get into an edit war either. I don't consider this even close to being an edit war. I just want people to put a lot of thought into their edits, and I want to ask questions to make sure I have an understanding of this dialect. By the way, AJD, I don't own the ANAE. I would love to have it, but it costs way too much money. I can't register on their Web site either, so there is no way I can get that information. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 20:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with you that the whole "list of notable speakers" is stupid, and it's gotta be almost all original research besides. AJD (talk) 22:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Question about Midwestern Accents
I've been reading your pages about different American accents and I'm now very interested and curious. Anyway, I have a couple of questions. First off, I'm from Appleton, WI...what dialect do we speak here- Inland North American or North Central American? Also, could you explain the difference between the two dialects because growing up in WI all my life I honestly cannot tell the difference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.235.147.208 (talk) 23:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC) ^^My apologies...forgot to sign and I'm not sure how to sign correctly either- I'm new using this. I'll identify myself as 143.235.147.208 (talk) 00:04, 12 February 2008 (UTC)Appleton Chick143.235.147.208 (talk) 00:04, 12 February 2008 (UTC)^^


 * I think Appleton is in the Inland North region. So I'm willing to bet you have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift in your speech, whether you realize it or not.  Some people there might have some North Central American features as well, although I'm not sure on that.  However, if you're a young woman then I doubt you have many North Central features, like the monophthongal "o sound" in "oh!", pronouncing "bag" to rhyme with "vague", and Canadian raising.  The different  dialects in the U.S. are interesting.  I'm from the central part of the Midwest, and I don't really even consider you guys to be Midwesterners.  It's like a different world up there to me.  That's just my opinion.  Heck, you guys don't even speak the same dialect as we do! 208.104.45.20 (talk) 18:44, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

"Same dialect as you do"? Where are you from? FYI I'm a girl and I'm 21. My family and I do pronounce -ag words to rhyme with vague, such as "bag", "Maggie", or "flag". Until recently I didn't realize that we were pronouncing them wrong lol. I am still trying to understand what this "monophtongal o" and "Canadian raising" you speak of is. We *do* pronounce our vowels strongly if that's what your talking about, for instance, we pronounce our short o's like "ah", as in "Wis-CAHn-sin". I'm also obsessively curious about getting a grasp of what the Northern Cities Vowel Shift is, because I've searched all over the web for info on it and every article is too technical and difficult to understand. I've even been referring to the IPA chart and I'm *still* confused. The only sound samples I've been able to get of this "shift" were clips of some girl pronouncing "socks" like "sax" and "busses" like "bosses", and I've never heard anyone talk like this in my life. The mispronounciation of those words are so blatant that I don't understand how anyone would be unaware of this. Also, I still don't understand how a Great Lakes accent is different from a North Central American accent, I mean, if I were to listen to someone from Chicago, WI, MN, the UP, or Ontario, I wouldn't know the difference, I mean, I think we all have that nasal northern hoser-y sound to our voices. Is it that the Inland North has more of a Polish flavor and the North Central American has more of a Scandinavian flavor?143.235.150.47 (talk) 02:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)Appleton Chick


 * I'm kind of afraid to give out too much information about myself on the internet. However, I will tell you I'm a young male (younger than you actually).  I am originally from the tan (I think it's tan) region on this map.  Wikipedia calls it the "regional home of General American".  So I speak with an accent that closely resembles what Wikipedia refers to as "General American".  I've been through Appleton a few times.  It's a great place.  I mean, how could it not be?  It's the home of Harry Houdini, so he claimed.  When I said "different world", I didn't necessarily mean it in a negative way.  Anyway, one thing I want to make absolutely clear is that you don't pronounce anything wrong.  No one does.  No dialect is inferior to any other; I'm sorry if I made it sound that way.  I think a good way for me to describe a monophthongal o to you is that it sounds like the way a lot of the characters in Fargo would pronounce the word oh in "Oh geeze Marge!" or "Oh yah, you betcha."  Read this article to learn more. Canadian raising is why many Canadians pronounce words like house, out, about, and many others differently from many Americans.  Check out the Wikipedia article on that topic for more information (I linked it for you).  The problem is, it is hard to explain the Northern Cities Vowel Shift without getting "technical".  It really helps to learn some of the IPA vowels.  Each one has its own article complete with sound clips to help you understand what each vowel should...well...sound like.  I do realize, though, that this can be difficult.  I think I know the clips you're talking about.  I believe the ones you're referring to were in an NPR interview with Professor William Labov.  That woman is what linguists would call an "advanced speaker".  In other words, she is quite far along in the Northern Cities Vowel Shift.  Not everyone in the Inland North talks the way she does.  I'm guessing that the reason you're so confused about the shift is that no one in the United States pronounces socks anything like the way that I imagine you pronounce sax.  However, the pronunciation of socks in your region is not moving towards the way you pronounce sax; rather, it is moving towards the way people from my region, and other regions in the United States pronounce sax.  What I'm saying is that I don't think you and I pronounce sax the same.  Another thing that you have to keep in mind about the NCVS is that not all the vowels involved in the shift reach their "destination" in all people (Read the article on it).  When William Labov or some other linguist says socks sounds more like sax, he is just approximating it to make it easier for people to understand.  For many people in the Inland North, the vowel in socks is actually in between the vowel people from other regions use in sax and the one people from other regions use in socks.  By the way, people from Ontario, the UP, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Chicago do not all sound the same.  There are differences, no matter how subtle they may seem.  I would love to be able to better explain all this to you, but it is just so difficult.

208.104.45.20 (talk) 22:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Well the differences must be pretty darn subtle seeing as a WI resident such as myself can't even tell them apart and you have a hard time explaining it. Are you saying that the shift is making Midwesterners sound more "proper" like General American? I thought it was making us harder to understand. I pronounce "sax", like "sacks" (as in Santa's sack), you know, with a short 'a', as in "cat". I guess me and my family sort of have Canadian raising, because like I said, we do pronounce are vowels strongly and exaggerated, but I'm not sure if our long o is as quite as exaggerated as you would hear in the movies Fargo or Drop Dead Gorgeous. But I have heard people around me that say it like that. Appleton Chick143.235.151.212 (talk) 00:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Just being a resident of Wisconsin doesn't make you an authority on nearby dialects. I have a "hard time explaining it" only because there are things that I know you won't understand if I write them.  208.104.45.20 (talk) 21:13, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Could you at least try to explain it? Thanks. Appleton Chick143.235.147.98 (talk) 18:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't see why I have to explain it to you. It is probably better if you learn it on your own.  I have my own way of understanding things that might not work for you.  Read all the Wikipedia articles that relate to this topic if you want to learn something.  I will admit that some of them need improvement, but it is still better that you read them than read what I have to say. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 00:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll keep looking for sound samples. I just wish people wouldn't let this ugly vowel shift progress too far.Appleton Chick143.235.145.6 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 23:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's that ugly. I wish I had that accent to be honest.  When I hear it, it reminds me of exciting urban areas of the Great Lakes.  It gives you a linguistic identity, unlike my accent.  You can't even tell where I'm from by the way I speak, but when you have that accent, people (or at least some people) know you're from a certain area.  208.104.45.20 (talk) 20:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, and here is a link to the IPA vowel chart. Click on some of the vowels (especially the ones involved in the Northern cities vowel shift) to get a feel for what sound they represent.  Once you get to an article on a particular vowel, you can scroll down to the table labeled "Occurence".  The table will give a word that has a certain vowel in a dialect of English.  Some of the vowels obviously won't be found in English.  You can also click on the "Sound sample" to the right side of each vowel article.  You may need to install some software in order to listen to the samples (Don't worry, it's free).  Keep in mind that no diphthong is included on the chart because a diphthong is a combination of two vowels. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 21:20, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

St. Louis Corridor (Again)
In ANAE, both the Inland North and the St. Louis Corridor are defined by the Northern Cities Shift, while Western New England is defined by a less advanced Northern Cities Shift. The St. Louis Corridor and the Inland North are defined in the exact same way, yet they are still separate regions for some reason. That doesn't make sense. I can see that Western New England is a distinct region because the Northern Cities Shift is less advanced there, although I couldn't find an explanation of what "less advanced" means. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 21:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The St. Louis Corridor is distinct from the Inland North because the NCS is only sporadically present there: in the Inland North, a majority of speakers (in the ANAE sample) have all or nearly all the features of the NCS. In the St. Louis Corridor, many speakers have some of the Inland North features, but not in a systematic way. The last part of Labov's recent paper "Transmission and Diffusion" discusses the differences between the St. Louis Corridor and the Inland North proper in some detail.


 * "Less advanced" means merely that the sound changes which constitute the NCS show small effects in Southwestern New England but not to as great a degree as they are found in the Inland North. So, in SWNE you might find /æ/ somewhat higher, and /ɑ/ somewhat fronter, than they are in a typical non–Inland North accent, but not nearly as much as they are in the Inland North. AJD (talk) 03:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks so much AJD. That was very informative. I also want to apologize for my attacks on you. I obviously don't know you and I never will. You could be a good guy. I don't know. I just get angry on the internet sometimes. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 03:38, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for saying so; I appreciate it. And I'd like to add that I also appreciate the many valuable contributions you've made to all of these dialect articles. AJD (talk) 04:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I get obsessed. I'm sure you know the feeling. You're more educated and experienced than I am (at least it seems that way). I've actually learned quite a bit from you. As I've said before, I would like to have ANAE, but it is too much money for me right now, so I just have to read excerpts from it. Quite a bit of it is actually available online (at least I think that's what I've been reading). 208.104.45.20 (talk) 04:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Fronting of Far
I've already mentioned this on the NCVS talk page, but I think the fronting of /ɑr/ is another notable aspect of this dialect, though it may not occur in everyone's speech. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 21:41, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sure you're right. I don't think it's discussed much in ANAE, though; have we got any good references for it? AJD (talk) 15:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, this is an interview with a linguistics instructor, and she says that the fronting of /ɑr/ is a traditional northern feature (though she doesn't say it in those words). 208.104.45.20 (talk) 00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I found a reference for it in the demo version of ANAE. It is found in the commentary of an interview with a woman from Cleveland. Here's what it says:

The city of Cleveland is an integral part of the Inland North, in the original Western Reserve settlement area. But it is less advanced in the Northern Cities Shift than many other cities. Agatha R. shows the basic features of the NCS in a moderate form: tensing and raising of /æ/ in outstanding, Flats, traffic; fronting of /o/ in top, Hospital, backing of /e/ in incredible. As in Chicago, we hear a strongly fronted /ah/ in Chicago and /ahr/ in art, identified with the fronting /o/. The long mid vowels /ey/ and /ow/ are characteristically upper mid and tense (cf. lake, you know) but plainly diphthongal.

That sounds good enough for me. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 19:54, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Fire
I have heard an unusual pronunciation of words like fire in this region. Fire seems to be [fʌɪɻ] or something like that for some people (ignore the symbol I used to represent the final r, I am still relatively new to this IPA stuff; the difference is in how /аɪ/ is pronounced in this environment). 208.104.45.20 (talk) 02:17, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * This is discussed (though not in detail) by Timothy Vance in a 1987 article in American Speech. He was studying the possible split of /ay/ into two phonemes, a raised one and an unraised one, and he commented that among his Northern speakers it seemed to be raised before /r/ all the time. AJD (talk) 14:15, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks AJD. I think I found the article you're referring to. Can I put something about this into the article? I think this is an interesting phenomenon, because I thought Canadian raising only took place before voiceless consonants. I realize there are exceptions for many speakers, e.g., spider, but this is quite an exception. It seems much more noticeable in a pre-/r/ environment. Maybe the American type of Canadian raising is a bit different from the Canadian type. I think we could go into more detail in this article where it says "Canadian raising". 208.104.45.20 (talk) 21:33, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, go ahead. The article on Canadian raising should probably be edited to mention that it's arguably undergoing a phonemic split in some dialects, too. AJD (talk) 04:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

The thing is, I don't know how to word it correctly. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 05:16, 24 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.104.45.20 (talk) 20:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

"The word on rhymes with don, not with dawn."
I believe that this is my native accent (I'm a lifelong resident of the Detroit area), but I definitely do not rhyme "on" with "don." I rhyme it with "dawn." Funnyhat (talk) 04:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * How old are you? I'm just curious. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 05:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * In my late 20's. Funnyhat (talk) 05:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah no... I live in Scranton and every single human being here rhymes on and Don... Not dawn. Football3434 (talk) 02:42, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

An Interesting Article
I found an interesting article here. It could either be used as a reference or an external link. It mentions Dennis Franz as being a speaker of this dialect, so I guess it could be used as a source for that. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 00:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Chicago English
According to this article by Corrine McCarthy, the Inland North is not a homogenous region. Some things in Chicago are inconsistent with the regional view of the Inland North. For example, /ɒ/ = /ɑ/ is not in low-front position there, but rather in low-central position. Also /ɔː/ remains in low-back/mid-back position, not low central position. In addition, the /uː//juː/ mean F2 = 1585 Hz; that's central, not back. The article concludes that Chicago, contrary to expectations, is not an extreme case of the NCS, at least not for /ɑ/ or /ɔː/. The earliest events in NCS, /æ/-raising and /ɒ/ = /ɑ/-fronting, have stabilized in Chicago, but later developments continue to strengthen, intensifying Chicago’s Northern character. The loss of peripheral /uː/ and front /ɑr/ in favor of non-local variant gives an opposing view of Chicago’s Northern character. I just thought this was another interesting article. Maybe someone could add something to the Inland North article about the inhomogeneity of this region. Thegryseone (talk) 03:16, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, exact low central position for would be pretty extreme--and likely to endanger the cot-caught distinction.  Speaking of which, another interesting thing about the Chicago version of Inland Northern speech is the relative position of  and .  In Chicago, DRESS exhibits lowering rather than (or in addition to) retraction; and as LOT moves to the front, the two vowels may crash into each other.  Example from IDEA: a 18yo from Chicagoland.  This guy has a very fronted LOT (smock really sounds like "smack"), but his DRESS lingers between low front and near-low central; listen to how he says economic-wise.  Compare 50 milliseconds by Labov.  Jack (Lumber) 14:03, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I knew someone would immediately mention that low central position for would be extreme. I agree. Of course, these were all mean F1/F2 values. It was still interesting, though, that Chicago wasn't as advanced as might be expected, and that the first two stages of the NCS have stabilized there. I also read that Pittsburgh article you told me about. Thegryseone (talk) 18:55, 30 June 2008 (UTC) By the way, that's interesting because I thought DRESS lowering was more common among females, whereas DRESS retraction is more common among males. I believe it though. Thegryseone (talk) 19:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * As for the backness of GOOSE, phoneticians like Labov normally distinguish between tokens of GOOSE in checked (C) and free (F) position. When is checked by a following consonant (as in goose), it is pronounced farther back than when it's free (as in blue). (This is true of all NAmEng dialects.) TELSUR data for the Inland North show that F2(/u/C) = 1142 and F2(/u/F) = 1684. And by the way, the F2 of  in my scatterplot is just the arithmetic mean of those two means--to be honest, I don't even know if that makes any sense at all!  Jack (Lumber) 19:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

That's fine Jack; no big deal. Corrine McCarthy's the linguist. I was just using her words. I don't fully understand all of this. One thing I am confused about, though, is whether gets retracted or lowered (or both). I am just really confused about that. When people says it gets lowered and retracted, do they mean that it goes diagonally along that front line towards (I don't know what that's actually called)? So anytime gets lowered towards, it must also be retracted, because  is further back than , right? Thegryseone (talk) 22:13, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * With respect to articulation, is lower than, but it's not further back, because both  and  are peripheral, meaning they are pronounced as far forward in the mouth as you can get; it's just that the vowel space narrows as the tongue moves away from the roof of the mouth.  So, for example,  is backer than , and  is both backer and lower than .  John Wells uses this approach in his Accents of English, where IPA symbols are prominently featured.
 * More recently, however, linguists have tended to describe vowel quality in terms of acoustic properties: This is the ANAE approach. (The pioneer being Peter Ladefoged, of course.)  Vowel height and vowel backness are defined according to the first and second formant frequencies: VA is lower than VB if F1(VA) > F1(VB); VA is fronter than VB if F2(VA) > F2(VB).  Period.  (Note that a more thorough analysis could take more parameters into account, e.g. F0, F3, bandwidth, etc.)  And the ANAE uses IPA very sparingly.
 * For instance, Labov says that (1) TRAP is originally lower and backer than DRESS; a second possible configuration is (2) TRAP fronter than DRESS but still lower; the third configuration, (3) TRAP higher and fronter than DRESS, is characteristic of the NCS.
 * If you produce the sounds and  (NOT:  and ) and if you measure the formant frequencies, you will most likely find that F1 > F1 and F2 < F2.
 * Disclaimer: I have never received any formal training in acoustic phonetics (as opposed to articulatory phonetics), so I'd like for a pro to weigh in.  Jack (Lumber) 19:39, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Gym shoes v. tennis shoes v. sneakers
Having been lucky enough to live in the Northeast, Cleveland, and now the South, I can attest to the currency of all three of these expressions for sport-related footwear. However, I do contend that gym shoes has currency in Cleveland as much as tennis shoes, as through college I was able to hear both expressions used interchangably (and to a lesser degree with sneakers). It seems that the article implies in the vocabulary section that the use of gym shoes is endemic to the Chicago area, with little currency elsewhere. What is the consensus amongst the editors? --Bwryan2006 (talk) 17:23, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I have lived in the Syracuse/Fingerlake region my entire life and have never heard anyone use "tennis shoe" or "gym shoe". Even the stores in the region promote them as sneakers. 170.123.4.230 (talk) 15:59, 26 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Native Inner-City Clevelander here, and I'd never heard them referred to as anything besides tennis shoes until I left the area to attend college. If you heard other terms while in college, are you certain you heard the terms *from* Clevelanders? Enigmakairos (talk) 16:05, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Central New York Pronunciation of "Elementary"
Should there be any mention of the pronunciation of "Elementary" and "Documentary"? There is mention of it in the article for Central New York, but it seems to me like there should be some mention under this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jzcrandall (talk • contribs) 04:50, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It's not a feature of the Indland North; it's a feature of Upstate New York as a whole, some of which is part of the Inland North and some of which isn't (e.g., Plattsburgh). So no, it probably shouldn't be mentioned in this article. Also, as far as I can tell, there's still no reliable reference for it (or won't be until I write my dissertation, anyway), so Wikipedia has no business discussing it anyhow—though if you've got a reliable reference, by all means share it! AJD (talk) 20:23, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Dennis Franz
I know some people don't like the whole notable speakers thing, but I actually did find what seems to be a decent source for Dennis Franz being included in that list. It's a New York Times article entitled "It's Not the Sights, It's the Sounds". It features an interview with William Labov. It reads: "If you're not sure what a Chicagoan sounds like," he [Labov] said, "watch old episodes 'NYPD Blue' and wait for Detective Sipowicz to ask, 'What hee-appened?' Having Dennis Franz, a Chicago native, portray a New York City cop is like trying to put a square peg in a round hole." Thegryseone (talk) 05:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've got another one. It's in this book, in the article on New York City if I recall correctly (I don't have it on hand now--it's upstairs and I'm in the basement).   I'm  Jack (Lumber) and I approve this message. 01:25, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I even have a link of Labov actually saying his name here, if that counts for anything. He never actually says, "Dennis Franz is a speaker of the Inland North dialect" though. Thegryseone (talk) 02:16, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Added miscategorized shibboleth
I added a note on the tendency to append a superfluous possesive 's' to place names. This was previously under List of shibboleths, though it is distributed too broadly and not widely enough adopted to be a shibboleth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by C alan zoppa (talk • contribs) 01:00, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Doorwall in Michigan?
I'm 38, have lived in Michigan on and off for most of my life, and I am descended from at least two generations of Michiganders in every direction (who have lived in the central, eastern, northeastern, and northwestern Lower Peninsula). I have never heard the word "doorwall" in my life (for a sliding glass door), nor have any of my relatives whom I've consulted. None of us have lived in the Detroit area, though, except the northernmost suburbs for one couple. Is this local to Detroit, or made up? The other contentions that the article presents about speech in the region are accurate, to my knowledge. --Unsigned Michigander
 * Well, it must be local, I live in the Detroit area and doorwall is fairly common. All my native Michigander family are from Detroit and call it a doorwall. I notice that you are near Denver. I can assure you that it isn't made up.  Ishwasafishclick here!!!  00:19, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to confuse you, but I'm posting from a hotel while on a business trip. It does clarify things to suggest that doorwall might be a usage local to Detroit, though. Thanks! -- Unsigned Michigander again —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.194.95.2 (talk) 04:17, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅  Ishwasafishclick here!!!  14:59, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

As a speaker of the dialect, I can back the fact that doorwall is used, although it is not the only word for a sliding glass door. Simply sliding door is often used, but doorwall is a very real word. Ekcrbe (talk) 17:34, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

South Bend
I originally come from near South Bend, have lived in west-central Indiana and now in metro Detroit. If Gary is cited in this article, South Bend should be too. The differences in speech between Gary and South Bend are so slight as to be inconsequential. People from Northern Indiana, such as myself, sound MUCH more like Detroiters and Chicagoans than people in the rest of Indiana. When I lived in west-central Indiana, I was frequently asked where I was from, as I obviously couldn't be a "Hoosier" (frequent guesses were Chicago and even Canada).--Locutus1966 (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion
Is it possible someone (much more knowledgeable than me) could include examples in the "Phonetics: Northern Cities shift" section? I am not a linguist, so I do not understand the meaning of something like: "3. In the third stage, /ɔ/ lowers towards [ɑ]" I am quite interested in this subject, but as a layperson, it's hard for me to understand the article. Help from some cool linguists who want to make the subject more accessible to us common folk would be appreciated! :) Danflave (talk) 00:33, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Evolution of the Dialect?
I would be grateful if some knowledgeable person or persons would add a section on the evolution of this dialect. My understanding is that it descends principally from the Western New England dialect (which, I gather, differs from the Eastern New England dialect principally in its marked rhoticism), which was carried to the Great Lakes region with the great westward migration of New Englanders in the early 18th C., but I don't remember where I read that. (An article on that migration in general would also be useful.)

Jdcrutch (talk) 15:22, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Merge discussion
The page Buffalo English is little more than a stub, sourced to one apparently self-published "Guide to Buffalo English", plus Matthew Campbell's pop-soda map (which doesn't show Buffalo to be distinct from Inland Northern). I know of no reliable sources discussing Buffalo English as a dialect distinct from Inland Northern American English. Instead of deletion, perhaps we can merge any useful information that could be sourced. Cnilep (talk) 07:46, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Hearing no objection, I have moved two external links from Buffalo English to Inland Northern American English and made the former page a redirect to the latter. There was no other content on Buffalo English that was reliably sourced and not already included on Inland Northern American English. Cnilep (talk) 02:33, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Fort Wayne
I've seen a few comments requesting that South Bend be added to the map, and I think that Fort Wayne should definitely be included in the map. Fort Wayne is bigger and has a higher population than South Bend, and almost all of these examples apply to Fort Wayne (excluding the city-specific examples and the on/don thing. On definitely rhymes with dawn.) But I have grown up in Fort Wayne, and I learned faucet, pit, pop, suckers, shopping cart, teeter totter, tennis shoes, and drinking fountain way before I even heard any of the alternatives. But from what I could understand from the pronunciation article, Fort Wayne does not fall under any of those categories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Myfriendwolf (talk • contribs) 04:31, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

what the?
i'm from around toledo, have relatives in southeast michigan and the ft. wayne area, and in all my years of being in these places, have never heard the accent described on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.53.159.220 (talk) 15:17, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

"bubbler"
While the article claims that "bubbler" is used for "drinking fountain" only in Milwaukee County and the surrounding counties, this is untrue. Having grown up in the Winnebago and Green Lake County areas, and having my children attend Brown County schools over the past 15 years, I can assure you that "bubbler" is by far the choice in East Central Wisconsin, and "drinking fountain" is certain to cause an "outsider" label (about as bad as saying "GREEN Bay" instead of "Green BAY"). I suspect that this usage extends over most of Wisconsin, at least the eastern half. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.109.78.93 (talk) 16:37, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Relation to Canadian English
Aside from Canadian raising, an awful lot of what I read here reminds of Canadian English in general. Are there sources that make the comparison? I feel like something should be said about it. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 03:26, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Northern Cities Vowel Shift
A particular line caught my eye, regarding the NCVS:
 * "that each subsequent stage is a result of the previous one(s), so that an individual speaker may not display all of these shifts, but no speakers will display the last without also showing the ones before it."

Therefore, the NCVS is technically a drag chain. Should this be added into the article? Thank you.LakeKayak (talk) 03:16, 23 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Hmm... this is not actually well-established; there's substantial disagreement and uncertainty among sociolinguists over whether the NCS is a drag chain or (in part) a push chain. And there are certainly speakers who show "later" stages of NCS without showing "earlier" stages, though perhaps in neighboring regions rather than in the core areas of the Inland North. AJD (talk) 05:54, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, sir.LakeKayak (talk) 19:07, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Merger from Northeast Pennsylvania English
The page Northeast Pennsylvania English provides nothing more than a slightly more in-depth (but poorly sourced) look at Inland Northern American English (INAE) as spoken in one given area: which, according to most of the page's own descriptions, is exactly like INAE as spoken everywhere else! Unless there are sources delineating a Northeast Pennsylvania sub-dialect as special, it should be merged. Right now, the page mostly cites the Atlas of North American English (ANAE), which makes no such distinctions. The only Northeast PA city the ANAE studies is Scranton, which it easily classifies under the Inland North dialect. The only other cited source is a 1961 work by Hans Kurath, which the ANAE confirms, though the ANAE shows evidence that some of Kurath's data is outdated. Wolfdog (talk) 22:56, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

I restored some information on the NEPA page with vocab, so I'm curious if that addresses your concerns at all. I also want to loop in Alistoriv because s/he was engaged in this topic as well up top. I personally think they should be separate, but I will find research to that effect. Tfkalk (talk) 14:16, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

I see has also has participated a lot on that article and its talk page and may wish to comment as well. Wolfdog (talk) 15:10, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't mind if it's merged, though I do think calling Northeast Pennsylvania English "poorly sourced" is a bit unfair. I did a major rewrite 11 years ago on the basis of the sources I could find (mostly PEAS and ANAE) because up until then the article had been a completely unreferenced collection of vague impressions by nonlinguists of what the local dialect sounded like to them. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:47, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry... by poorly sourced I mean specifically that the concept of a unique Northeast Pennsylvania English (i.e. as distinguishable from just any old Inland North dialect) is not verified by the sources. Obviously, the sources are credible and confirm, as I'm trying to convince others, that the Inland North dialect exists in Northeast Pennsylvania. I also, of course, appreciate and thank you for clearing out a bunch of the rubbish in the past. Wolfdog (talk) 21:57, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for tagging me into the conversation, Tfkalk. I realize that I was mistaken in my saying that NEPE is a distinct dialect from INAE (I agree with the the sub-dialect classification). However, I think that Northeast Pennsylvania English is worth preserving as a page. I agree that the page needs to be expanded to show the area-specific characteristics and the like. Alistoriv (talk) 15:46, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Are there sources that justify the separate page then? We have no pages called Chicago English or Milwaukee English or Southern Michigan English, because they all easily fall under Inland Northern American English with no notable unique characteristics of their own. So why have a Northeast Pennsylvania English? Wolfdog (talk) 19:12, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I haven't been able to find a good source that justifies the page, I suppose a merge would be alright Alistoriv (talk) 17:26, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, great. Over a month allowed for further discussion and no real sources found to justify the separate page. So I'll begin the merger. I'll try to include any sources that mention anything unique. Wolfdog (talk) 16:52, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Picture-pitcher merger
I have heard claims that in this accent /k/ is dropped in words with /k/ and /tʃ/ in that specific order in adjacent syllables. Is this true, and should this consonant merger be noted in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.83.43.134 (talk) 21:35, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Lowering and backing of /ɪ/

 * It feels like you're creating more work for yourself in this section, asserting a questionable premise and then trying to build all kinds of unnecessary explanations and caveats around that premise that is dubious in the first place. What is your evidence (as in, a source), that Inland Northern accents undergo a "kit-comma merger"? Sure, KIT lowers and retracts, but that in no way allows you to confidently state that it "effectively results" in a merger with COMMA... unless you have a source. Even the NCVS chart we display on the page itself shows that KIT lands somewhere in the territory in-between [ɘ], [ə], [ɛ], and [e]. This is not COMMA-only territory, plus even if it directly overlapped with COMMA, a source would really be helpful, because (as Labov and others have studied), sometimes overlapping vowel spaces do not result in mergers (but rather distinctions based on length, near-mergers, etc.). Wolfdog (talk) 14:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * You forgot that is an unstressed-only vowel. This means that the weak vowel merger (assuming that it's complete) already renders the distinction between it and  completely complementary, with  restricted to unstressed syllables and  restricted to those syllables that are stressed. The only reason (save for the lack of a proper contrast between  and, which is probably universal in NAE) the two are considered to be distinct phonemes in dialects with the weak vowel merger is the frontness of . If it's central, there's simply no reason not to consider them to belong to one phoneme, a stressable schwa. The source is Wells (1982:606), which deals with a different dialect (NZE) of the same language (English, obviously). We can safely infer the phonemic analysis from there - or we could do that, if we wanted to introduce the discrepancy between this article and General American English, as the vowel in near is much closer to  than to the shifted . The merged / vowel preceding  is written with ⟨ɪ⟩ by Wells and, as far as I know, we follow him on that, and I see no reason not to do that here.
 * Yes, the shifted is not necessarily centralized but it can be lowered instead. I'll fix that and note that the merger is phonetic (as it is banned before, where  is analyzed as , following Wells, and the merged / vowel is obviously distinct, as a rhotacized schwa) and happens only when  is centralized, or even when speakers alternates between centralized and lowered realizations (just as in NZE).
 * The length distinction you're describing would be a distinction between (including non-rhotic, of course) and non-rhotic , like the distinction between forward and foreword in RP. The distinction between Lennon and Lenin is one of quality, not of length in RP. In dialects with the weak vowel merger, there's obviously no distinction, by definition. Sol505000 (talk) 15:07, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Again, I think you're missing my call for a direct source. We cannot use one variety of English to infer something about another. At best, you need to change "effectively results in" to something less strong, such as "potentially" or "possibly results in" (though even here, you're revealing that you're speculating, since no scholar has actually said this). Wolfdog (talk) 15:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * We can, it's the same language (not to mention that American sources are notoriously awful when it comes to nailing down the phonemics of NAE). You don't need to reinvent the wheel. The way the vowels are described by Gordon (2004) unambiguously suggests a merger at least on a phonetic level - and when is analyzed as, then the merger is clearly phonemic. New Zealand English phonology (an article about the phonology of a dialect of English most commonly said to feature a central ) points to a huge allophonic variation of the merged / vowel. Sol505000 (talk) 15:27, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, I forgot that there's a contrast between Rosa's, with a morpheme boundary after the schwa and roses , with a morpheme boundary after the medial voiced alveolar fricative. In that case, you're right that there's no merger - but only because the weak vowel merger is not complete. Sol505000 (talk) 15:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Ryan Gosling
Ryan Gosling, while Canadian through and through, seems to speak with a hybrid New York-Chicago/Great Lakes accent in many of his movies. According to his profile, he hails from London, Ontario, which is roughly equidistant between Detroit and Buffalo, New York, both strongholds of Inland Northern American English. Hence, even if he grew up speaking Canadian English, there’s a chance he might have grown up with some Northern Inland features and incorporated this dialect in various roles. Wiscipidier (talk) 03:04, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Honors English 250H VL2
— Assignment last updated by ForeverButNever (talk) 21:43, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Ashton Kutcher
Ashton Kutcher is from Cedar Rapids, Iowa in the INAE region and he quite clearly and famously says ‘punked’ as ‘ponked’, perhaps he should be added as a famous example of a speaker of this dialect? The dodgy cop Michael Brelo from Cleveland (Killing of Timothy Russell and Malissa Williams) is a particularly broad speaker too. Overlordnat1 (talk) 21:23, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not hearing it. Do you have a source? Who's Michael Brelo? We tend to list famous people with Wikipedia pages. Wolfdog (talk) 17:12, 12 July 2023 (UTC)