Talk:Insurgency in the North Caucasus

Talk
Hasn't this begun much earlier-- TheFE ARgod (Ч) 18:15, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the start date should be the day of the official ending of the Second Chechen War (15 April 2009), or the day after, since this conflict is a continuation to that war. --IJK_Principle (talk) 19:02, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Casualties
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20100116/157570882.html -- TheFE ARgod (Ч) 12:24, 16 January 2010 (UTC)


 * And someone isn't using this figures and editing my contributes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saiga12 (talk • contribs) 14:48, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Anzor Astemirov killed
Comfirmed by both the Russian side and by the insurgents (viz kavkazcenter.com) --IJK_Principle (talk) 01:46, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

infobox problems
The infobox heading states "2009 to 2010", but then below the picture states "result: ongoing". So, one of these is wrong - either it is ongoing (thus the heading should be without start/end date - the start date is already mentioned below the picture) or it finished in 2010 (thus it should contain "result: whatever the end result is").

The infobox contains "insurgency phase: April 2009 - present", but it isn't clear "phase of what" is this. See for example Civil war in Ingushetia infobox - below the heading it states "part of the 2nd Chechen war and ..."

So, we have the following articles:
 * First Chechen War marked "1994 - 1996; result: Khasav-Yurt Accord, de facto Chechen independence"
 * Invasion of Dagestan marked "1999-1999; part of: 2nd Chechen war; result: russian victory and start of 2nd Chechen war"
 * Second Chechen War marked "1999 - 2009" no markings for "part of something else" and "result"
 * Civil war in Ingushetia marked "2007 - ongoing; part of 2nd Chechen, North Caucasus insurgency; result - conflict ongoing"
 * Insurgency in the North Caucasus marked "2009 - ongoing; result - conflict ongoing", no markings for "part of something else"

So, there is an obvious inconsistency of what conflict is part of another conflict, what conflict is result of another conflict, etc. (for example Dagestan conflict - it is either part of 2nd Chechen or its result is the begin of 2nd Chechen. It can't be both at the same time) Also, most of these don't have campaignboxes (such as Template:Campaignbox First Chechen War) and maybe that is the reason for the inconsistency (those of the listed above conflicts, that are marked as part of another conflict, should go as "phase" is the campaignbox of the "umbrella conflict"). Proposal for correction: The Template:Campaignbox Post-Soviet Conflicts can be left as-is, or changed according to the above.
 * Insurgency in the North Caucasus to be moved to Insurgency in the North Caucasus (2009-) and a marking "part of Insurgence in the North Caucasus; result: ongoing". Care should be taken with current redirects such as North Caucasus Insurgency 2009 - these should point to the appropriate article: 1999- or 2009-.
 * draft name Insurgence in the North Caucasus (1999-) to become an article about all the above conflicts without the 1st Chechen (as the later 4 are inter-related). A Template:Campaignbox Insurgence in the North Caucasus will contain links to Dagestan, 2nd Chechen, Ingushetia, Insurgency 2009-.
 * Invasion of Dagestan - to be marked "part of the Insurgence in the North Caucasus" (result marking to remain unchanged)
 * Second Chechen War - to be marked "part of the Insurgence in the North Caucasus" and "result: low-intensity insurgency continues"
 * Civil war in Ingushetia - to be marked "2007-2009", "part of Insurgence in the North Caucasus", "result: low-intensity insurgency continues"

Of course alternative arrangements are possible, but in any case the current one is a self-contradistinction. Alinor (talk) 08:39, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Unrelated material

 * In early 2005, government forces surrounded a group of five rebels in a two-story house on the outskirts of Makhachkala. The rebels battled the authorities for seventeen hours, killing one of Russia's elite Alpha Group commandos and wounding another, until armored vehicles and a helicopter blew apart most of the house and its neighbour. All the rebels were killed.
 * In the weeks preceding the battle, insurgents had derailed two trains, sabotaged gas supplies and shot dead a high-ranking intelligence officer from Moscow, as well as a local police chief. A month later, Major General Magomed Omarov, the deputy interior minister, was assassinated in Makhachkala.
 * On July 1, 2005, eleven Russian MVD ODON troops were killed and seven wounded in the capital when their trucks were bombed.
 * On August 20, 2005, a remote-controlled bomb killed at least three police officers and wounded several more on a downtown street in the Makhachkala. The bomb detonated as a foot patrol walked past a grove of trees.
 * On March 22, 2006, a group of assailants fatally shot the chief administrator of the Botlikh district of Dagestan during a fierce gun battle in Makhachkala.
 * On August 27, 2006, three police officers and four suspected militants were killed during a two-hour gun fight in Makhachkala.
 * On May 14, 2007, police said three rebels were killed and three police commandos wounded in a fierce firefight on Sheikh Mansur Street in Khasavyurt.

January

 * January 4 - Three policemen were wounded when an improvised explosive device detonated in Khasavyurt.


 * January 6 - A policeman was severely wounded when an IED exploded next to his car in Makhachkala.

February

 * February 2 - Insurgents in Dagestan opened fire on a roadside cafe, east of the regional capital Makhachkala, killing the head of Untsukul district administration, Kazimbek Akhmedov, 2 of his bodyguards and a customer.


 * February 3 - Rebels shot and killed 2 Russian FSB officers in Nazran, Ingushetia.


 * February 6 - Dagestani Police killed 3 rebels in a house on the outskirts of the Dagestani capital of Makhachkala.


 * February 11 - An explosion at a residential building in Nazran, Ingushetia killed 4 police officers and 3 insurgents. The insurgents were identified as suspected suicide bombers who the police had been looking for. Russian security forces engaged and killed a group of seven rebels in Kabardino-Balkaria, near the town of Gerpegezh. The firefight left one Russian soldier wounded.


 * February 12 - Russian forces raided a rebel camp in the forested mountains of Kabardino-Balkaria killing 7 rebels and finding a small weapons cache.


 * February 16 - Russian forces in Dagestan raided a house where a group of insurgents were located killing 4 and wounding 2 police reported.


 * February 18 - 3 police officers were wounded when their vehicle hit a landmine in Ingushetia. 2 other police officers and a Russian soldier were wounded in a separate attacks by rebels.


 * February 26 - An IED went off as a police van was passing by, wounding 2 policemen and a bystander in Makhachkala.

And in 2009:

March

 * March 3 - An artillery shell exploded near Nazran, Ingushetia killing 6 people and wounding 2 others. One of the dead was identified as Nazran's deputy police chief, Alexander Gorelkin.


 * March 12 - 3 people suspected of firing on a military post were arrested in the village of Surkhakhi, Ingushetia.


 * March 19 - A military helicopter had to suspend its flight after the gunner was wounded near the village of Kakashura, Dagestan. In Kabardino-Balkaria a gunfight broke out between Russian troops and militants resulting in 4 militants being killed.


 * March 21 - Heavy fighting was reported near the village of Kakashura, Dagestan where Russian troops and insurgents battled for a third day. Police say 5 Interior Ministry soldiers were killed. Between 5 and 7 insurgents were reported killed. Three policemen were also wounded.


 * March 23 - Rebels attacked a police patrol in Karabulak, Ingushetia wounding a policeman. The police responded killing 2 rebels in the return fire.

April

 * April 13 - Also in Makhachkala, Dagestan rebels shot and killed 2 Dagestani police officers on their way to work.


 * April 14 - A gunfight broke out between rebels and police in west Chechnya resulting in 1 police officer killed and 2 others wounded. In Makhachkala, Dagestan police shot and killed 3 rebels in a car after the rebels opened fire on their security post.

--Asperchu (talk) 13:38, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

No, it's just beyond hopeless
It's all list, it's really badly written (computer translation, mostly - and some of this here below is actually after my corrections) most of this is just trivia (and I already removed much), it's totally unencylopedic, and I'm moving all of this here to talk page.

I'll list just some major incidents and the article will need to be completely rewritten anyway.


 * Timeline moved to a talk sub-page Talk:Insurgency_in_the_North_Caucasus/Timeline (long timeline makes this talk page load slowly). --Kslotte (talk) 13:21, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

How to (re)write the article
Things to be covered: That would be good for starters I guess. --Asperchu (talk) 20:00, 23 November 2010 (UTC)
 * major terrorist attacks (Nevsky, metro) and the resulting crackdowns (elimination of the all well-known rebel leaders in Dagestan, Ingushetia and KBR, also rampant human rights violations but this is nothing new)
 * suicide tactics of all kinds (suicide bombers and suicide commandos) being now aplenty, attacks against economic targets (trains and pipelines, but mostly this famous power station bombing in KBR)
 * Ingushetia, then Dagestan being the centres of violence (but Chechnya still actually not peaceful at all)
 * situation in Chechnya: Chechen commanders' (and Muhannad's) recent breakup with Umarov, then their offensive against Kadyrov's regime (including the attacks the high-security symbolic targets such as his home village and his parliament)

Emirate
The article is rather awful. Rather than be objective, the article mentions an "Emir". Note that this is a term that only the insurgents use. There is no "Emirate", it is just the illusion they establish. So why did the article mention an Emir? Who added this? It's like doing advertisement for the insurgent. The article should NOT mention any "Emir", it is of no interest in the main article - if you really want to find an "Emir", then do so on the personal wiki page for the individual at hand. For the main article here it is absolutely irrelevant, thus I removed that part. 84.112.136.52 (talk) 12:06, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes I agree on this topic. --Wrant (talk) 13:35, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Clarification needed on if the conflict has "ended"
There have been a few edits and reverts (some made by myself included) to whether or not the conflict has ended. From what I could tell going to the Russian Wikipedia page, the conflict is de jure over after an announcement by the government and an analysis by experts. It is in the opinion in others however, that the conflict is still de facto ongoing. This poses a problem similar to the one discussed on the talk page for the South Sudanese Civil War, where the government has declared victory and/or peace despite clashes still happening. If other editors could add some new citations from reliable sources to verify the "end" of the conflict, that would be greatly appreciated; otherwise (in my opinion) the conflict should remain listed as "ongoing". Centre Left Right ✉ 06:36, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

It's still necessary to clarify should insurgency be marked as ongoing or not. Some users keep marking conflict as ended, adding article from Russian newspaper as source which says that director of the FSB declared that "almost all groups of bandit underground were liquidated". However, some terrorist cells are still active and attacks are occuring monthly. Moreover, conflicts with even smaller number of attacks and casualties are marked as "ongoing" on Wikipedia (for example Insurgency in Paraguay). I'll leave article as it is now in order to avoid edit war, but I think insurgency should be marked as ongoing, because conflict didn't end completely. NikitaNaumov (talk) 20:17, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * NikitaNaumov At least there is a source indicating the end of the conflict, whatever it may be. Secondly, all structures of the Emirate or Vilayat are liquidated, as are their leaders. The fact that someone shoots somewhere can be regarded as ordinary banditry, and not as a struggle for the creation of an Islamic province in the Caucasus. Can you name some militant leaders? Or some kind of structure? The fact that someone is shooting at someone cannot be a criterion of armed conflict. Каракорум (talk) 11:29, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * We should at least achieve some consistency on Wikipedia itself. I have just recently removed this conflict from this template: Template:Ongoing military conflicts, based on the fact that this article refers to the conflict in past tense. If that is the case, then the insurgency should also be removed from List of ongoing armed conflicts. However, the article has numerous citations supporting the fact that it is still an ongoing conflict listed under "Skirmishes and clashes (Fewer than 100 deaths in current or past year)" (the citations are quite numerous and listed here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts#cite_note-282). I'm not sure how to proceed, but it seems quite obvious that the exact same conflict shouldn't be 'ongoing' in some of the articles and 'having ended a few years ago' in others. AnalogIgor (talk) 05:37, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * So how many people died in the last year? Less than 10? And sources are inserted in the article about statements by Russian law enforcement agencies about the destruction of the underground. If someone killed someone this does not mean that this is a war. Каракорум (talk) 12:34, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * the "Caucasian knot" tends to call the "victims of armed conflict" people killed for banditry and the like. Any shootout of police and criminals is called a military conflict. Although for a long time this has nothing to do with it. Каракорум (talk) 12:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It is still ongoing [] "In October, another two police officers were killed in a shootout with militants in Grozny"Shadow4dark (talk) 22:13, 28 December 2020 (UTC)


 * As a direct observer, I can say that the conflict is definitely over. Two deaths in one month is nothing. The entire structure of the insurgents was destroyed by the Russian special services and troops. The region is really calm, especially in comparsion to the 1990s. MarcusTraianus (talk) 17:51, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Do you have non pro russian sources for your claims?Shadow4dark (talk) 11:59, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Sure. You can see that one. MarcusTraianus (talk) 18:28, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Conclusion. The insurgency is over. The entire insurgent structure, as well as cells, were either destroyed or left Russia. There are no active hostilities. The 39 deaths allegedly linked to terrorism are not evidence of an active full–scale conflict. It is reflected in both Russian or non–pro–Russian sources. MarcusTraianus (talk) 20:27, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

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