Talk:Intelligence quotient/Archive 4

What is "Immediate Intelligence" ?
Someone added an unsourced statement in the first paragraph of the article that "Many think" IQ discloses "immediate intelligence." First, who are the "many" and what is "immediate intelligence?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.137.23 (talk) 18:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I see it's been added back by the same person. Please.  I have no problem with the statement's inclusion as long as it's sourced and the concept "immediate intelligence" is explained.  Thanks.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.137.22 (talk) 02:25, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Just a guess, but I think that this crack-pot believes that rote-learned nonsense of achademia constitutes for the rest of "non-immediately available" intelligence, when he's actually confusing knowledge with this clearly pre-concieved idea. Not to be insulting but the concept has the intellectual credentials of a 14 year old chronic masturbation addict behind it. Summed up, "immediate intelligence" is what the closest thing any of us normal, well-adjusted people see as "working memory". He's using pseudointellectual throw-up terms to describe rather simple and well-established concepts that may well have little to do with the overall picture of intelligence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.212.40.74 (talk) 14:22, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Just thinking... this guy (immediate intelligence) is a pseudo-intellectual who uses big terms to define relatively easy concepts, then why couldn't you say that in a plain way? You criticize the former for using academic language when you, yourself, are using overly complicated language. Just thought that I ought to point that out...

"Immediate Intelligence", intuitively defines IQ + any mental energy involved in attending to and attacking real world problems. Of the most blatant assumptions IQ proponents make, is that every single one of us, through every possible frame of time, are attending towards the same intellectual problems. As if all of us, simultaneously, allocate some standard length of attentional resources, and give birth to the same analogical substrates. Interestingly, there is a lot of recent data coming from the field of cognitive psychology, that clearly rejects the prehistoric-based pseudo-equivalence between IQ and Intelligence. Specifically, it is becoming more often suggested within the cognitive and neuroscience community, that the performance on problem types which involve higher levels of fluid intelligence, depend largely on specific areas of the Prefrontal cortex, and not as much on IQ (see Blair, How similar are fluid cognition and General Intelligence?). The long-held view that human intellect is a product of, bland Piagetan functions, is being seriously challenged. So maybe one day, smart people won't have to suffer the woes of watching imbeciles boasting about SAT scores, and may no longer have to tackle the paradox of the 'intelligent' fool.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.212.119.245 (talk) 17:52, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Health and IQ
I noticed in the 'Health and IQ' section, it states, "Persons with a higher IQ have generally lower adult morbidity and mortality. Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, severe depression, and schizophrenia are less prevalent in higher IQ bands." Curious, I looked at citations 48 and 49 for 'severe depression', and personally, I don't think they demonstrate that persons with higer IQ have lower prevalence of depression at all.

Maybe someone can take a look at these citations, but the only thing I think they demonstrate is that severely depressed persons score lower on IQ tests... and when their depression is alleviated, they score higher. In other words, depression can temporarily lower your IQ. Neither article makes any assertion that higher-IQ persons are somehow more resistant to depression! (I'm sure as hell not!)

[48] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1572949&dopt=Citation

[49] http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1440-1819.2006.01564.x

(Note, however, that the PTSD citation appears valid - that post specifically states that higher-IQ persons are less likely to develop symptoms of PTSD in response to trauma, or that their symptoms are milder.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.108.52.225 (talk) 03:01, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

––I, too, raised an eyebrow when I read this sentence. The studies cited do not support this claim, and I am going to flag this sentence. While it is documented that mental disorders, such as (clinical) Depression create a "deficit" in cognitive functioning (see above sources), this is not relevant to population differences between higher-IQ individuals and lower-IQ individuals. Can someone offer any support to the original claim? If not, it should be removed, or at least flagged. 68.43.216.50 (talk) 15:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

--I was going to mention something about this also. I'm glad others caught it. I wouldn't mind if the sentence was reworded to reflect the content of the articles referenced. Ie.

The IQ test scores of patients diagnosed with depression is on average lower than those without a diagnosis. In at least two situations, when the those with depression were provided with treatment, an increase in average test scores was reported. This may suggest that mood influences cognitive performance, but does not address the influence of cognitive performance on mood. Aklazar (talk) 01:58, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Mood swings aside, has anyone noticed that, on average (nope - no source whatsoever, just observation!), seriously depressive persons are rather prone to have *high* IQs? In conjunction with the largely undisputed fact that the vast majority of renowned artists, writers, composers, musicians, and poets were given to chronic depression... wouldn't this indicate that a certain minimum IQ is necessary for serious depression, with a progressive risk of the illness at higher scores? It would make sense, considering how true apathy or disappointment require certain observational and analytical abilities. Aadieu (talk) 21:31, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * No such medical correlation has been found. There seems no such link with intelligence. You might be thinking of something like angst or existential depression. Dmcq (talk) 07:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Have you noticed?
Have you noticed everyone and their mother has an IQ of 165? 63.227.5.54 (talk) 21:43, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

it's a very good test —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.38.137.55 (talk) 07:06, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Have you noticed that the world and their dog have a capacity to lie? You are gullability at it's worst. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.212.40.74 (talk) 14:25, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * HAHAHA..165? You have got to be kidding, I agree with Mr./Mrs Anonymous above me! Thats just what I was talking about on the first post, anything over 140 is highly unlikely unless your a rocket scientist...Well, over 130 and your really smart for that matter..but who cares, some of the smartest people on earth are also the stupidest. People are what matter, not what number you got on some silly test. Lets put those 165s to work solving world hunger, or ending the energy crisis..Then maybe I will believe them, lol Flgrl8585 (talk) 06:10, 29 June 2009 (UTC) Firefly Shine


 * World hunger be buggered, we are much too busy meditating about the nature of God/god/gods, geopolitics, and the oppressing impact of ideals, or depressing over the spiritual, identity, loves lost or never gained, etc., to care much for rockets, hunger, or energy. In fact, we're much too absorbed by ourselves (and, sometimes, our beers, sedatives, or opiates) to even carry out the garbage. In my not-so-humble opinion, the only thing that keeps us somewhat in touch with our worldly routines is the evolutionary drive to procreate; for reasons unknown to us, coitus rarely occurs over three days after our last shave and shower, even should you happen to be tall, reasonably fit, and highly articulate. Peculiar, huh? Aadieu (talk) 21:43, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

OPINION
The race related section should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Liquidblue8388 (talk • contribs) 13:57, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Why? Sensitive are we? Do not fret, my race is among the dumbest (Native American)..And we are all far behind the Asians..No hard feelings, different circumstances produce different results..Raise a black kid (or Cherokee for that matter) in a home of geniuses, chances are he will become one too. Smarts are not discriminative, unless one has a mental incapacity. Some races are predisposed to mental disorders that make learning and retaining knowledge, or performing tasks such as  abstract/visual reasoning, quantative reasoning, etc. difficult. There is no average, there is no median or mean to judge a race.  Each individual in that race has a certain ability to change the "statistics," and who are they to tell us otherwise.  Dont get upset...get even.. lol Flgrl8585 (talk) 06:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC) Firefly Shine


 * It is not so much a matter of race, as one of culture, and thus - more nurture than nature. Respect-your-elders/superiors ultra-conformist cultures, such as most advanced Asian societies, achieve a higher average IQ, mostly due to inculcation of learning and suppression of individual ambition, but therefore have a narrower IQ distribution (for example, Japan has an average of about 110, above that of Western or Eastern Europe, but far fewer 140-160s than Western or Eastern Europe). This type of upbringing coerces individuals to fall in line, be it by curbing ambition for the highly intelligent, or through sheer will and effort to conform by the below-average. Free-for-all non-conformist individual-oriented societies like the USA achieve rather dismal average IQs (for the industrialized world), but have a much wider dispersal, leading to fewer 110s (qualified labourers) and 120s (engineers), but more geniuses and visionaries per capita. This type of culture neither shames its weak into catching up, nor pressures its strong to keep within the norms of the flock. Socialist, somewhat-conformist societies, such as modern Sweden or France, or the recently-defunct Soviet Union, lie in between, with slightly higher-than-USA average IQ, more 120-130s than the USA, but fewer of the widely applicable 110-120s than Japan *or* the visionary and creative 140-160s than the USA... In other words, IQ spread range can be cultivated - evenly somewhat-high in highly educated but highly conformist societies, average to mid-high in moderately educated but somewhat conformist societies, or dismally low to extremely high in very individualistic societies with good access to education. As to the low averages for less-developed areas of the world, these are skewed by low literacy and availability of education, which confuse the results of developed-world tests, designed to discount education as they may be, still made by educated persons expecting a minimum thereof from test takers nonetheless. Aadieu (talk) 22:11, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Have you any evidence either positive or negative for you assertions? As to the original poster saying the section on race an intelligence should be removed, no reason was given. It is obviously a notable topic and this is an encyclopaedia. Dmcq (talk) 07:55, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It absolutely should not be removed. Industrial-organizational psychology has spent the better part of the last 50 years trying to figure out what the heck to do about this problem!  We want to test intelligence but we recognize that there's a racial gap.  Period.  That DOES NOT mean that there's a genetic gap.  It underscores the fact that IQ tests are SCREAMING at us that there is a problem with the educational system.  African-Americans' IQs have been closing the gap since the early 70s.  Do you think that could have something to do with an expanding access to public education?  My guess is that the gap won't close much more until we confront some of the inequalities in the educational system.  But one should not under any circumstance try to rip the race issue out of IQ.  It's central.  Read Steele and Aronson... Irwin Katz.... Mayer and Hanges... Ployhart et al... Nguyen et al... McFarland et al.  The way that Blacks react to tests is an extremely serious issue.  We're trying hard to figure out how much of the problems with scores have to do with test format... content... test type... anxiety... motivation... face validity... etc.  If you try to gloss over race, you run the risk of saying that there isn't racism.  THAT is the ironic part.  People think IQ tests are racist, when, in fact, they simply POINT OUT racism.  98.212.129.80 (talk) 06:10, 16 October 2009 (UTC) SJC

Gaussian distribution
I think that the "Gaussian distribution" picture and explanation are misleading and leave a lot to be desired from a theoretical standpoint. I think a true histogram from a respectable study would do a much better service. Unfortunately I cannot offer one. 83.67.217.254 (talk) 22:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Stephen Jay Gould quote
This quote:

"…the abstraction of intelligence as a single entity, its location within the brain, its quantification as one number for each individual, and the use of these numbers to rank people in a single series of worthiness, invariably to find that oppressed and disadvantaged groups—races, classes, or sexes—are innately inferior and deserve their status. (pp. 24–25)"

is an incomplete sentence. It makes no sense just to have it preceded by "He wrote:".

As far as it is possible to tell from that bit he might have written something like: "It is to the credit of the brave pioneers of IQ testing that they were willing to argue the case for the abstraction of intelligence as a single entity, its location within the brain...etc" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.75.237 (talk) 04:15, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Asking for cites within a quoted passage?
There was a quote within this article that was itself cited back to the source --- however, someone added requests for cites to sources within the quote itself. I deleted those since it didn't make sense. The quoted materal, as a quote, stands alone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.137.34 (talk) 21:27, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Image for use in "Group differences" section
Here is an image that can be used in the "Group differences" section. --Jagz (talk) 20:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think it belongs here, for a number of reasons: its origins are very controversial (basically taken from The Bell Curve), the current section on group differences (or the one on race and intelligence) are very short and do not warrant a large graph added, and the subject is already covered at length in the Race and Intelligence article.--Ramdrake (talk) 21:18, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * When did "controversial" become the test of acceptability? It isn't as far as I know. <>  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.137.41 (talk) 03:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The image was not taken from The Bell Curve, the graph can be large or small depending on how you edit it, and you deleted the graph from the "Race and intelligence" article. --Jagz (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't say the graph was the exact same as that in The Bell Curve; I just said it was "basically the same". Also, I said the subject was covered in Race and Intelligence, not that the graph was in the article (although there is in that article a very similar graph, which is why this one was removed, for reasons of avoiding redundancy). My point is that such a small section doesn't warrant a graph at all, as per WP:UNDUE; it is just given undue prominence to a subject which is rather minor and peripheral to the subject.--Ramdrake (talk) 22:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It is not very similar, it is only somewhat similar. Minor and peripheral??? Can I borrow your crack pipe please? --Jagz (talk) 23:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Please, WP:NPA. This was one.--Ramdrake (talk) 23:11, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Highest IQ
Is the IQ on a finite scale? What is the highest score one can have? Llamabr (talk) 16:11, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Stop and think for a second and you'll realize that the anser is 'No.' IQ tests have to be standardized.  How could questions be standardized on an infinite scale?  Honestly, this is like the negative IQ question above.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.137.21 (talk) 21:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I admit that I did stop and think -- yet I don't see why a limitless scale would preclude standardization (assuming a typo in your answer (did you mean that I would realize the answer is 'Yes'?). Anyway, I don't see any evidence that there's an upper limit. I would appreciate any references you could provide, though. Llamabr (talk) 21:24, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, I'll play along. Since you "don't see why a limitless scale would preclude standardization" - please explain how that's done.  I'm actually looking forward to your answer.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.86.226.15 (talk) 02:58, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


 * This sort of question would be more approprate for WikiAnswers or Yahoo Answers; this is for work on the article. ff m  16:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Is your claim, then, that this information is irrelevant to the article? Llamabr (talk) 17:04, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that it should be in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.89.37 (talk) 22:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

So, is anyone going to answer the question? I was wondering the same thing; what if someone that took an IQ test got every question right, thus getting a perfect score, what would their IQ be? Naturally, if they got a perfect score the IQ they got would be the highest possible IQ, at least on that particular type of test, and until the tests were changed.66.41.44.102 (talk) 12:49, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

People! You fools! Everybody constantly forgets that the measurement methods DO NOT ovveride the measurement concept. I constantly see this, in physics or probability. On any given IQ TEST there is a limit of top IQ that the test would give. However, under the basic concept of how IQ is counted (mental age divided by physical age times one hundred) there is no max cap. If your mental age was infinitely high, and your physical age was constant, then your IQ would be infinite, and a asymptote on any graph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Waladil (talk • contribs) 08:15, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd appreciate you being a bit more polite when pointing out my inadequacies please. Also the bit about age isn't done anymore, see the article introduction. Dmcq (talk) 17:04, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it impossible to have a infinite IQ? After all, it would require that you have an infinite level of intelligence and a test with no top IQ limit. Of course, there is a limit to how intelligent one can be and how a test can be scored, so I'm thinking yes, it is impossible.66.41.44.102 (talk) 00:30, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There are two distinct questions here, and I think there are two answers that can help us all see eye to eye. First, "Is there a highest IQ?"  Since there is an upper limit to the size of the human brain and an upper limit to possible brain activity, we can infer there is some highest IQ that no human is likely to achieve.  Second, "Is IQ an infinite or finite scale?"  As mentioned by Waladil, IQ tests do use limits but the formula itself could mathematically result in infinity if the limit was not tacked on as a second operation at the end.  Therefore the second answer is both.  It's an infinite scale used by us with a cap imposed to make it a finite one.  I'm not fully sure I'm saying this clearly, but there's a way that's obvious to me to look at this question which can help us understand it and debate it without seeing either answer as foolish or worthy of disrespect.  (Ejoty (talk) 18:10, 1 September 2009 (UTC))

Dude, the only being with an infinite IQ is GOD. 195.217.128.34 (talk) 16:48, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Idiot Distribution
It's well known that IQ, in the United States anyway, does NOT have a Gaussian distribution and actually has a Chi-squared distribution. By application of the central limit theorem its samples tend to the gaussian limit, however portraying the parameter as normal is grossly misleading. 74.78.162.229 (talk) 20:53, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Where did you get this 'well-known' information from please? I'd have thought the distribution could be made anything one wanted by arranging the mapping from scores to IQ. After all that's what happens with combining maths and verbal skills to make the average IQ 100 for both sexes. If anything I'd have expected something more like a Poisson distribution but the Chi-squared distribution would actually fit better with what I was thinking about the wide variance of IQ in a section I set up below Why so variable?, perhaps the factors are more of a sum of squares type than linear? Dmcq (talk) 13:00, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism -> semi-protection
Seems to be a lot of IP vandalism in the past few days. I'm going to semi-protect for a few days. &mdash; ERcheck (talk) 03:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Environmental factors
Check this site for lots of environmental factors with evidence links: http://iqandenvironment.blogspot.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.150.215 (talk) 13:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

There are a number of bio-enviornmental factors that IQ tests ignore. Perhaps, the most important is the activity in the frontal lobes, which clearly appear to regulate something called "working-memory capacity". Basically, Working memory is the comprised of the STM LENGTH (Short-term memory capacity) + ATTENTION SHIFTING. WMC governs how much information per unit time can be juggled in short term memory. An example of a WM problem would be to remember a set when called out (ex: A 5 B 9 C D 1), and then recite the 'numbers' in forward order (or 'reverse' order). Individuals with lesions in the frontal lobes have been found to perform very poorly on such tests, while often having normal IQ's. But even in general, WM correlates poorly with IQ. Unfortunetly, there has always been the move (by pro-IQers) to 'redefine' WMC to ignore the 'Attention shifting' component of WMC, basically reducing WMC to STM (more or less, IQ).

My concern with IQ is that it is a poor indicator of creativity, which I (and few others) have always felt to be the hallmark of high 'intelligence'. IQ tests are just good indicators of what age you can attain a peak at, but not how intelligent you actually are. For example (and I'll exaggerate, to make my point), if one child has a 110 IQ and the other a 100 IQ, and the first locks himself in a white room for the first 20 years of there life, and the latter spends every day in the library, it is clear (even though IQ advocates counter), that the latter child would be more intelligent as they enter adulthood. Later the kid with the higher IQ, will most certainly be able to solve the same problems the Lower-IQ kid did, but it would be at a time which makes those problems insignificant to his intelligence (ie; by the time the HIGH-IQ kid can solve them, EVERYONE else can too). I'm not implying with this, that the ability to regurgitate a known solution makes the 'bookish' child more intelligent (this would be the IQ'ers claim), but with knowledge obviously comes 'experience', and this 'experience' can, in turn, be applied to (uniquely) solve real world problems (problems without known solutions).

Any info on Lorge-Thorndike
My old high school transcripts show a "Lorge Thorndike" test. Based on google, this appears to be another IQ test. Wikipedia doesn't currently have an article on this one, parallel to Stanford-Binet, etc. Could anyone write a brief article?

Thorndike understood that intelligence had several dimensions, which have all mysteriously disappeared from modern IQ theory. There was a power score (the complexity of the problem), a speed score (how fast could a person do them (within what time frame?), a breadth score (how many problems?). He was one of the more notable theorists, because he essentially understood that intelligence can be described in a few, equally valid, ways.  Although, such a point, as rational and relevant as it is, has conveniently been tossed aside since.

Ponder this hypothetical scenarios for a second: Imagine that with the entire capacity of PERSON 1, 1000 problems are solvable, that 60% of the population can solve. Imagine that with the entire capacity of PERSON 2, 999 problems are solvable, that 5% of the population can solve.

Is person 1, more intelligent that person 2? Not if you ask me....... But most IQ proponents aim to say just that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.22.31.252 (talk) 03:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Biased older studies?
Surely the logic here is wrong? IQ and socio-economic status are not independent variables, they're correlated quite strongly. If the genetic contribution were close to zero then someone like George Washington Carver would be impossible.

Paul Magnussen (talk) 16:07, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Brain speed and brain efficiency correlation with IQ
I noticed that two other interesting correlations with IQ are not mentioned in the article. The fact that folks who have the fastest response times when picking the correct image flashed on a screen also score highest on intelligence tests isn't mentioned. Also, PET scans show that those who score highest on intelligence tests also use less (not more) glucose in the area of the brain involved in problem solving when given problem-solving tasks. That is, those folks appeared to solve the problem more efficiently. Neither are mentioned. There are a number of studies that show both. If there is someone inclined to add this information to the article let me know and I'll provide supporting studies if needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.139.146 (talk) 15:55, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Why so variable?
The thing that has struck me about IQs is how wide the range is. The ratio of the standard deviation of height to height is nowhere so large. And I'm pretty certain it isn't because of the recent evolution of our intelligence or because the zero is at the wrong place. The Intelligence of Dogs seem to be just as variable though no-one seems to have devised a test giving numbers. Dog size is a bit more variable but people have bred them especially for that. Anyone got any ideas on this? Does the same difference in ratios of variability of intelligence and height hold for identical twins? Is intelligence more like skin area or weight and we should be looking at what correlates with the square root of IQ? Dmcq (talk) 08:01, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

rising of IQ by 3 points per decade
Hi,

it may be useful to illustrate what this rise actually means:

''A group’s mean intelligence is important in explaining outcomes such as mean educational attainment or mean income. The key indicator for predicting exceptional accomplishment (like winning a Nobel Prize) is the incidence of exceptional intelligence. Consider an IQ score of 140 or higher, denoting the level of intelligence that can permit people to excel in fields like theoretical physics and pure mathematics. If the mean Jewish IQ is 110 and the standard deviation is 15, then the proportion of Jews with IQ’s of 140 or higher is somewhere around six times the proportion of everyone else.

The imbalance continues to increase for still higher IQ’s....''



216.80.119.92 (talk) 20:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Ramdrake - your revisions re Flynn Effect considering cites in article
Ramdrake, if you would please explain the assertion that scores are rising "worldwide" when just a few lines down in the same section the following appears, thanks -

''Teasdale & Owen (2005) "report intelligence test results from over 500,000 young Danish men, tested between 1959 and 2004, showing that performance peaked in the late 1990s, and has since declined moderately to pre-1991 levels." They speculate that "a contributing factor in this recent fall could be a simultaneous decline in proportions of students entering 3-year advanced-level school programs for 16–18 year olds."

''In 2004, Jon Martin Sundet of the University of Oslo and colleagues published an article documenting scores on intelligence tests given to Norwegian conscripts between the 1950s and 2002, showing that the increase in scores of general intelligence stopped after the mid-1990s and in numerical reasoning subtests, declined. ''


 * For some reason, you have singled out two of only a hanful of studies which claim that the Flynn effect has stopped. As for the Flynn effect itself, here is a quote from the introduction of our article on the subject (emphasis mine):
 * The Flynn effect is the rise of average Intelligence Quotient (IQ) test scores over the generations, an effect seen in most parts of the world, although at greatly varying rates. It is named after James R. Flynn, who did much to document it and promote awareness of its implications. This increase has been continuous and roughly linear from the earliest days of testing to the present. "Test scores are certainly going up all over the world, but whether intelligence itself has risen remains controversial," psychologist Ulric Neisser wrote in an article in 1997 in The American Scientist.[1] The Flynn effect may have ended in some developed nations starting in the mid 1990s although other studies, such as Black Americans reduce the racial IQ gap: Evidence from standardization samples (Dickens, Flynn; 2006), still show gain between 1972 and 2002.
 * Hopethis should settle the issue.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Ramdrake - in addition to the information already quoted in the section read these late 2006 quotes from Dr. Flynn. The entire article is linked.


 * http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article756647.ece


 * ''"...Now the man who first observed this effect, the psychologist James Flynn, has made another observation: intelligence test scores have stopped rising.


 * Far from indicating that now we really are getting dumber, this may suggest that certain of our cognitive functions have reached — or nearly reached — the upper limits of what they will ever achieve, Professor Flynn believes. In other words, we can’t get much better at the mental tasks we are good at, no matter how hard we try."''


 * That's silly. It means that the educational system isn't improving.  Look at the big leaps that have occurred over the period that Flynn studied.  They correspond to the expansion of public education.  The degree to which positive social change, particularly in terms of education, has occurred all over the world is the degree to which certain parts of the world have seen higher increases than others.  I believe that African-American IQ is still converging on Caucasian-American IQ, by the way.  Flynn wrote a paper on that one, too. 98.212.129.80 (talk) 06:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC) SJC


 * "...Professor Flynn believes there is no reason to believe IQ gains will go on for ever. He points out that although gains are still robust in America, they have stopped in Scandinavia." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.139.140 (talk) 12:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The Flynn effect may subside for a time, but we will constantly have to adjust for the curve, if we continue to become a more educated species. Which is questionable. 98.212.129.80 (talk) 06:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC) SJC


 * Sorry, but that's only what a journalist reports on the subject, even if he/she seems to be quoting Flynn himself; he's only quoting what he understood. Here is a recent (2007) paper from Flynn which explains exactly what is meant by "most parts of the world" and exactly why the end of the Flynn effect is still in dispute (it seems to have stopped in a couple of countries, but also seems to be strong in others), so talking about the Flynn Effect in the past tense is at least premature.
 * Thus, this re-establishes the two points:
 * That the Flynn effect is observed in most parts of the world, as opposed to "some" parts of the world (it is definitely stronger in some than in others, though)
 * That there is no consensus that the Flynn effect has stopped, although there are indications it may have stopped in some countries. Indications from other countries show it is still strong there.
 * Hope it helps.--Ramdrake (talk) 14:46, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Certainly, just as long as the original and incorrect use of the term "worldwide" is deleted I have no problem with the present version. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.86.226.16 (talk) 00:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Should this article be merged with Phrenology ?
Should this article be merged with Phrenology ? Blablablob (talk) 16:58, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The readings from Phrenology aren't good or useful measures of anything except bumps. The results of IQ tests correlate fairly well with peoples ideas of intelligence. If you or I and Marilyn vos Savant are given some random problem there is a very good chance we will take much longer than her or even fail where she succeeds. Phrenology is unlikely to give a result correlating with this observation. Dmcq (talk) 17:25, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * My public school administered test, similar to the one which Ms. Savant scored 167+ on, was 173+. I have found that people who habitually solve various kinds of puzzles usually solve them faster than me, and that when I am considering some weighty matter that does not engage my interest there are often people who make better determinations than I do. Ms. Savant, by her membership in those silly societies, betrays a vast will to self-promote if not self-deceive. I would happily see IQ go the way of Phrenology.


 * The talk page is for discussion about improving the article. It is not a forum for personal feelings about the subject. Please see WP:TALK. Dmcq (talk) 07:33, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Is there a "Lynn-Flynn effect"?
The synopsis on Flynn effect says it is aka the "Lynn-Flynn effect", and mentions Lynn in addition to Flynn. Is this valid? My impression is that far fewer people speak of "Lynn-Flynn" than just a Flynn effect, and said WP article doesn't even mention Lynn. The idea of giving him equal weight on the subject seems doubtful, at least in a brief synopsis. I would remove reference to Lynn from this section, but given the contentiousness here and my relative lack of familiarity with the subject, I wanted to mention it here first. CAVincent (talk) 00:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

As I know, "Intelligenz-Quotient" is a German word, not a Russian one.
Maybe, I should edit the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DidiDigomi (talk • contribs) 10:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

NLP IQ Test
Why the hell was it listed on the "Free IQ tests" section? it's just about the worst test i've ever seen, even when ignoring the litany of spelling mistakes. half the questions are ambiguous.boombaard (talk) 19:16, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

what
''The average IQ scores for many populations have been rising at an average rate of three points per decade since the early 20th century with most of the increase in the lower half of the IQ range: a phenomenon called the Flynn effect. It is disputed whether these changes in scores reflect real changes in intellectual abilities, or merely methodological problems with past or present testing.'' Um, the average IQ score of a population is fixed by definition.. 71.176.188.216 (talk) 01:35, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * True but you can compare years by having some people try out an old test and a current test and compare the IQs the two tests produce. Dmcq (talk) 09:41, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Types of IQs/ disparity
Sometimes there are major disparities in IQ scores. My verbal IQ is 150, but my visual is 93. Jonathan321 (talk) 01:41, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The IQ described here is a measure of general intelligence. Have a look a the intelligence article for different types of intelligence. Dmcq (talk) 09:56, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

FIQ, VIQ, PIQ
The Japanese version mentions Full scale IQ, FIQ; verbal IQ, VIQ; performance IQ, PIQ; please mention them too, with their with acronyms. No acronyms means no Google hit. Also #REDIRECT for each. OK, doing for Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale. Jidanni (talk) 02:16, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * This article is about general intelligence, please see the Intelligence article for other measures. Dmcq (talk) 13:56, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

A reminder to all.
Please read WP:Copyright Do not copy and paste from what you find on the web. Write stuff in your own words, otherwise this is plagiarism.

There was a lot of copypasta on this article. I removed it, but it took a while. Headbomb {{{sup|ταλκ}}κοντριβς – WP Physics} 02:48, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

G factor?
g is mentioned a few times in the article but never introduced or explained nor a link to an explanation provided. Someone, who is not me, fix this, please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.197.212.231 (talk) 23:53, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Linked them to General intelligence factor Dmcq (talk) 00:35, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Copyright Infringement By Third Party
I googled around for the wikipedia policy on reporting copyright infringement by third parties, but I wasn't able to find the correct way to report it, so I figured I'd post here. The text-message scam-type site http://www.theiqquiz.com/US1/results.php prompts a user to answer 10 questions, then sign up for a paid service to get their IQ result. They use the introduction to the wikipedia IQ article, verbatim, at the bottom of that page. It is used without any reference to wikipedia. I was under the assumption that the wikipedia license permits attributed re-use, but not uncredited stealing.

Anyway just thought I'd bring it to someone's attention. Great article! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.193.52.106 (talk) 22:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Correlation definition
I added link to definition at first occurrence of correlation where the term is used in purely mathematical/statistical sense. There are still remain occurrences used in that way. I don't know if its a good practice to give links to the same term when they are separated from each other by several sub-sections. Can someone comment on that? Moreover, in some cases correlation stands for relationship. From my point of view it's a little bit confusing, when several meanings of the word are exploited in the article, especially when synonyms can easily be used. At least I would suggest giving a link to definition at one those occurrences where correlation stands for relationship. --Wallach2008 (talk) 19:49, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Sex differences
The article on Sex and intelligence discusses average differences between the sexes an that's reasonable. However I thought that IQ as in this article Intelligence quotient was normally defined with a mix of questions hat balanced out sex differences so both sexes averaged at 100. So how can men outperform women on average by 4 points as said in Intelligence quotient, surely that section should only be saying about there being difference in some abilities and that i is possible to choose a balance of questions or weigh the results? Dmcq (talk) 09:46, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The result about greater intelligence of men in an unbiased test is almost certainly because the test was done on university students and as the rest of the paragraph says men have greater variance. So not a great deal there. I'll say the statement is not well founded. Dmcq (talk) 12:45, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Making a test unbiased in this way is very hard---and could well result in a test which is more biased than a test written with no such considerations. Note in particular that there is no particular reason to assume, a priori, that men and women have the same average IQ. (Note e.g. that there is a near consensus that they have different standard deviations.)88.77.143.153 (talk) 00:59, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually it's fairly easy and it is what is done for the major tests. Whether or not men and women have the same intelligence on average whatever that means most IQ tests will give the same average and that's by design, they change the test to remove average differences if the trials show up anything significant.. For instance you just need to put in more word tests to bias for women or weigh spatial tests higher to bias for men. Dmcq (talk) 11:34, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * While the mechanims of change is easy, it is hard (impossible?) to find a perfect balance. Consider that a set of corrections that give 100-100 in one setting can give 101-99 (or 99-101) when the test group changes, or that a test may yield 100-100 when used on the overall population, but 115-113 when used on college students. It is a bit like trying to keep a set of scales balanced when a breeze is blowing on it. A further complication is that merely adding verbal questions do not automatically give women an advantage, but the type of questions, formulations used, etc., may also need consideration. Consider e.g. that men tend to marginally outscore women on the SAT-verbal, or that the Swedish SATs ("högskoleprovet") have been critized (and, I believe, repeatedly altered) because the word tests used were too male centric. (An example would be using more questions referencing gaskets, and similar items, than crocheting and other "female" words.) To make matters worse, a test that uses too many verbal questions becomes vulnerable to attacks against cultural discrimination, unfairness against immigrants, etc.94.220.255.11 (talk) 02:11, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Of course the results after the tests are put into the field will be slightly different and if you try them on selected samples like university students you'll get something quite different again. They also have a panel looking at things like culture fairness when they set them up. Intelligence tests are a bit ad hoc for the simple reason that intelligence isn't yet a well defined quantity a scientist can take out a meter and measure. Dmcq (talk) 11:49, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Normally Distributed?
This page pleads differently, and I have been told by several people- all of whom I trust, but none of whom are verifiable- that Iq is not normally distributed, but actually follows log-normal distribution. Can anyone else provide evidence for this? Mxb design (talk) 20:22, 27 February 2009 (UTC)


 * See the first paragraph of the article, according to it the IQ distribution is arranged to be normal. Note that IQ hasn't got an innate scale, at least not one that has been discovered so far, so it can be given any distribution one wishes. The intro describes the distribution chosen as standard. If there was some version of an IQ test which used another distribution that would probably be notable and someone would probably already have said something along those lines, but its worth seeing if those people you mention can recall where they got their ideas from. Dmcq (talk) 20:54, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Top range has been reached
This article sucks. It propagates and encourages human to human attitude that is far too mild to call fascism. I am deeply sorry I ever contributed anything to the Wikipedia, as my contributions to other articles indirectly promote this web site - so indirectly promote this crap. I tried to oppose, but it seems that nothing is working against the "community" that holds control on this article. Everything that they do not like is just removed and it absolutely does not matter if I provide references to the peer reviewed journals or not.

I have believed in the spirit of Wikipedia for the long time but I have reasonable doubts now as my own contributions into other articles indirectly promote publications that I consider crime against humanity.

This is my pre-last contribution to Wikipedia community. My last contribution will be marking this article for removal. I know this will not hold for long and will be considered as vandalism but sometimes you need to fight also when you do not expect to win and opportunities to go into any discussion are now fully exhausted.

Audriusa (talk) 14:57, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Well you certainly haven't won over anybody with your objectivity Audriusa. 207.69.137.42 (talk) 02:38, 24 March 2009 (UTC) 3rd year Dukie


 * I searched the history page of the article and I fail to see where you get the idea a guarding group has been reverting reasonable edits. The only edits I can see by you to this article in the last few months were a block today 28th February which deleted content without commenting why in the history. Reverting the changes is the correct action in such circumstances. Dmcq (talk) 17:18, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Online IQ Test Validity
'Online IQ Test Validity' redirects here but there is nothing about it in the article. What's up with that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.202.195.21 (talk) 16:29, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Vegetarians
The line about how IQ correlates to people becoming vegetarians in adulthood should be removed or a comment should be added indicating that it does not prove causality. If the population of storks correlates to the number of babies born in Europe, it doesn't prove that storks bring babies. Same idea here. The statement, as is, can be misleading in this fashion as can the results of that study itself. Just my two cents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.231.88 (talk) 08:17, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Binet?
Alfred Binet's article says, in the first line, that he is the inventor of the first usable intelligence test; is there a reason that's not mentioned in this article? I don't feel very bold today, so I'll leave it to you.  Aar  ►  05:35, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Citations need improvement
Several citations are incomplete. The section on heritability of IQ, for instance, cites Plomin et al. (2001, 2003). No further citation information (such as publication source) is given and I was unable to find these articles. The most likely articles I found in PubMed had only two authors; only papers with 3 or more authors are cited as et. al.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11320676 "most environmental variance affecting the development of psychological dimensions and psychiatric disorders is not shared by children growing up in the same family."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12639274 about genetics and educational psychology

Without complete citations, it is impossible for me to verify whether the article correctly represents the research on environmental factors. For instance, I see no evidence regarding heritability and age.

Overall, the article strikes me as sloppy. Earlier sections of the article give the impression of particular facts, without reference to the criticism and views section. In particular, potential bias of earlier articles needs to be carefully evaluated. Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 15:08, 26 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd guess the 2001 one would be Behavioural Genetics Robert Plomin's works are listed at . Dmcq (talk) 13:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Word Choice
I have a problem with the way the word 'methodology' is used in this article. From my understanding, methodology is the epistemological discourse of methods used in a school of thought. The word is popularly used as a pretentious substitute for 'method'. Does anybody want to correct me before I revise the article? Marksspite2 (talk) 01:48, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The word is used in only one place in the article where it seems correct to me. The methodology was revised, the methods being updated was a consequence. Dmcq (talk) 09:48, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

SSSMART
this is for smart people —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.189.218.21 (talk) 17:34, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

question
am a nine letter word.teachers hate me,cow like me,monkey eat mw,who am —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.193.134.134 (talk) 14:16, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Please note at the start of this talk page "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Intelligence quotient article.". It is not for any other purpose. It is not a chatroom. Dmcq (talk) 15:03, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Childhood IQ and smoking
The source states that: "but was not associated directly with smoking consumption". So the reference is wrong and I removed in this edition: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Intelligence_quotient&oldid=305773243. V3n0w (talk) 07:26, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Mutability

 * A sales blurb without a study isn't good enough when everything else is based on researched papers.

Dmcq, the publishers of the WFF 'N PROOF logic game say there are studies. Can you help me locate the research papers which report these studies? --Uncle Ed (talk) 12:59, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I've had a look at their site and they do provide links to some papers, their main page about the research is at . WP:CITE decribes about citations, the best ones for Wikipedia are ones in a referred journal and not in fact the original research but ones where someone reviews an area of study and makes comments on the results of the research. That's not always possible of course in which case on just has to take what one can but it needs to be of a comparable quality to whatever else is standard for an article. A wiki link to Wff 'n Proof can be put into the article text so there's no need to directly link to their top web page, the citation should conform to the citation guidelines and fairly directly back up what is said. It looks like there's probably enough there to put in a citation which is the principal thing one needs in an article like this where every statement comes under s fine toothcomb. Dmcq (talk) 17:41, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Nature opinion article on human genetic diversity
I read a nature opinion article that argues that geographically separated groups of people can be distinguished by observing their genome. Many of the changes in the genome are probably functional. The traits that are influenced by these changes also include brain biology. If this is the upcoming trend in the field, then the opinion that all groups of people are too similar in order to be able to make a meaningful distinction between them (called "biological egalitarianism" in the article), then the opinion expressed by Dr. Nisbett will become obsolete. I added a little text in the "Race" paragraph, with a link to the article in the "Reference" section. That's my first time edit on wikipedia, so please tell me if I did something wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bjrnfrdnnd (talk • contribs) 17:14, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I've added some history without consultation, sorry
Hi everyone, I'm sorry I didn't read this page before making some additions to the history section and I had no idea that disputed or controversial topics had to be discussed first. Also this is my first edit of a wikipedia page using references and I didn't know how to put them in the correct format. I have the names and dates of the articles only with the full references listed separately below.

I hope you guys will forgive my mistakes as it was a genuine accident. I've studied the history of intelligence testing so I hope that you'll find my contribution useful and interesting and don't delete it all ha ha. Sorry again. Feel free to edit or delete. I didn't consult with you guys first and I'm easy going so I'll accept whatever changes you make. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shieldsgeordie (talk • contribs) 19:29, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't be worried about that. It seems to be fairly quiet now anyway but occassionally you have a bit of argument when someone comes along with strange views and tries forcing things their way, and then it isn't the initial edits that are the real problem but the strong points of view people have and their unwillingness to listen to other people. Even so this article isn't like evoluton or Israeli-palesine conflice or recently climate change. Economics articles also tended to get some nasty arguments but also have quietened recently. Overall I'll say thank you for your useful and well cited additions. Dmcq (talk) 21:59, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks its very nice of you to say so. I did the research whilst at University a couple of years back but I only covered up to 1929 unfortunately. Maybe someone else will pick up from 1929 onwards to complete the history to modern times. I know the testing of US immigrants on Ellis Island, the Wechsler Intelligence scales and the forced sterilizations (now largely forgotten) in the USA would also be interesting to cover. But I'm sure there are other things too. 188.222.59.18 (talk) 23:27, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

IQ a score you are born with?
"An Intelligence Quotient or IQ is a score which you are born with." I don't consider myself an expert on intelligence, but I think its pretty common sense that an individual's IQ is not something that stays continuous from birth. Its not like the doctor slaps a sicker on your butt at birth and says "Well it looks like this one's a 105, congratulations folks, your kid's above average!". On the other hand I guess the statement could be considered in the sense that you start out with some sort of IQ...I just don't think the statement is appropriate or very specific. Any comments? Rmkreeg (talk) 13:30, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have a comment. Where is that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.137.11 (talk) 18:55, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Its been deleted, I guess... Rmkreeg (talk) 08:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

There is the possibility that doing certain things can raise your IQ. Of course some people have higher IQs because they were breast feed but at this point that is irrelevant. Learning a new language or learning how to play a musical instrument can allegedly raise your IQ.Tacoesforlife (talk) 05:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * That's not an accepted position. Gc and gf are two different things.  You're born with gf; gc is something one can develop.  So while one may be born with a baby's IQ... you'll notice that your IQ score increases radically once you can take the tests in crayon... and then later in pencil!  However... don't take too much comfort here.  One's IQ doesn't rise after a certain age.  98.212.129.80 (talk) 06:12, 16 October 2009 (UTC) SJC


 * This article is relevant to the discussion.  Of interest is the bit where it says "Despite a lot of evidence to the contrary, many people believe that intelligence is fixed." At best, I would say that this article is badly outdated. BordenRhodes (talk) 09:02, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Be bold - is this science?

 * Yes, it's science. General Mental Ability has been studied by countless psychometricians around the world.  There have been tons of meta-analyses to understand the relationship between "g" and performance.  It's the biggest area of study in individual differences psychology.  Individual IQ TESTS may be questionable, but that there is such a thing as "g" is without question.  I'm not sure that we should use the word "IQ," however.  IQ goes back to a time when testing was design to figure out which were the mental defectives.  We could just say... GMA score.  Or "g score," more simply. The study of intelligence and intelligence testing, though, is no hocus pocus, but one of the single most important scientific studies in any discipline.98.212.129.80 (talk) 06:23, 16 October 2009 (UTC) SJC

Parts of this article suggest that IQ in considered:
 * hard science
 * pseudo science
 * mediocre science
 * not necessarily science, but notable

If this is hard science, then that should be established (e.g. what is it measuring? `intelligence` is an inadequate answer, as it is a common term with a wide scope of usage)

If this is pseudo-science, then that should be clearly stated as with phrenology and etcetera.

And there's the issue of mediocre science: briefly, adding equations doesn't make it science, nor does cherry picking data, nor engineering the procedures and interpretations. What material is just mediocre science?
 * Quick example: shoe size and math test scores - on a single, given test - are positively correlated for students aged 6 to 18; likewise women tend to have smaller feet then men - from which we can conclude incorrectly that big feet and big hands are a positive indication of math proficiency, and women trail men in math proficiency due to small feet.
 * even worse: we can clean this up on the surface (e.g. to make it less obviously dubious), without ever addressing the core, flawed methodology and assumptions.

There's a lot of this kind of 19c material surrounding IQ generally, and in this article. Blablablob (talk) 01:01, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


 * IMO your post is really vague. It might be better if you provide some specific article quotes along with some specific suggested changes - best with supporting cites.  I think those additions will give everyone the opportunity to address your specfic objections.  I'll check back.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.86.226.16 (talk) 00:59, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "what is it measuring" isn't vague, let's start with that. The introduction starts off with the history, and barely touches on the substance - which is odd for a scientific article, and my impression is that most of the authors consider IQ to be science. Then it list some statistical material, correlations, that lacks traction. Followed by the Flynn effect, which casts doubt on the scientific merits of IQ tests.


 * compare that to the introductions for Kinetic Energy and GDP - very clear, to the point, no beating around the bush, they say what each is, and can largely stand on their own feet. The closest this article comes to that is a sentence that puts all its weight on intelligence, an `umbrella term`, and standardized test, yet an other nonspecific term. Blablablob (talk) 03:48, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Again, how does the "statistical material" and "correlations" that you generally refer to "lack traction"? Provide some specific examples that can be discussed here and maybe some changes that will make the article better.  If the introduction "barely touches on the substance" where do you think it fails and what do you suggest be added?  If the Flynn Effect "casts doubt" - as you suggest - than add here what you think will make the section better.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.137.40 (talk) 23:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


 * at this point, the responses I'm getting are borderline prevarication: if it is science, much better answers should be forth coming. This isn't a wine and cheese tasting; content should correspondingly be more direct, and less subjective. Blablablob (talk) 16:33, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * At this point it appears, that for whatever reason, you either are unable or simply don't want to provide specifics. Saying this "isn't wine and cheese tasting" isn't a specific objection.  At this point, it appears you want "better answers" without the burden of providing specific objections.  Until you do, there really is no point.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.139.142 (talk) 17:30, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Your arguments can be applied quite straight-forwardly to something like the temperature. As far as giving the temperature in the weather forecast is concerned what time and over what period should it apply to?, should a wet or dry bulb thermometer be used? There is no temperature for the day but scientists are quite happy with using a temperature plus knowing how it was collected. The same applies to intelligence. There is no single intelligence but there are a number of different tests which give figures which are useful and can quite properly be classed as intelligence tests even if they differ a bit in their results. Same with GDP, it is a useful measure of something or other but what is anyone's guess, and even kinetic energy is fuzzy if you cut the time span down - and it differs according to what other object you're measuring the speed against. Dmcq (talk) 10:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * you've accidentally made my point: scientists are happy with temperature and how it was collected. This article does not go that far, it stops far short of it. To use your metaphor, it says nothing of the method - wet, dry or even if a thermometer was used. Is an IQ test a series of sudoku and crossword puzzles, like on the back of a TV guide? or drawing pictures of a house with people? does it involve reading text and demonstrating comprehension? is there overlap with the turing test? you would never know from this article.


 * GDP measures value added in domestic production - using the universal element in these transactions, money.

While it does tell us everything about everything, it is clear about what it tells us, and how it does this. The same level of clarity as to what is being discussed, and what is being measured is not in the intro for this article.


 * in your example of the uncertainty principle, there are known pairs, like dt:dE, dx:dp, and a order of magnitude ballpark on the value. The same level of clarity as to what is being discussed, and what is being measured is not in the intro for this article.

Blablablob (talk) 21:14, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The intro of the article clearly states what IQ is 'An Intelligence Quotient or IQ is a score derived from one of several different standardized tests;' and it states what the aim is 'attempting to measure intelligence'. I am not certain if your problem is with the first part or the second or both. The GDP heading goes 'The gross domestic product (GDP) or gross domestic income (GDI) is one of the measures', this is what it is, followed by 'of national income and output for a given country's economy', which gives its purpose. GDP does change with changes to accounting and government rules but it is a good and useful measure, the same is true of IQ. There is currently no absolute linear scale of national income and output or of intelligence for GDP or IQ to measure and there may never be. Even in physical science the idea that 'All things physical are information-theoretic in origin and this is a participatory universe... Observer participancy gives rise to information; and information gives rise to physics', has been very useful and is the basis for Extreme physical information, a way of deriving physical laws. By the way could you sign your posts with four tildas (&#126;&#126;&#126;&#126;) so the signbot doesn't keep adding extra silly entries to histories please. Dmcq (talk) 08:02, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * you are being far too philosophical - as opposed to focused, and grounded in this matter - and not recognizing the clear short comings of this article. Phrenology is an attempt at measuring intelligence, among other things. What it actually measures is bumps on a head. An article about phrenology should come right out and say, "Phrenology measures the bumps on a person's head . . .".  Be bold! Is this science - if it is, you can do better; if it isn't, say so; if you don't know, why are you responding to this post?


 * The article `clearly` sidesteps a bold description appropriate for any kind of scientific article - physical, biological, etcetera. It reads like a politician avoiding an unpolitic subject - the famous non-answer. Blablablob (talk) 16:50, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I (not a psychologist) have discussed IQ with professional, active-licensed psychologists and psychiatrists. They have told me that IQ is a highly controversial and loaded topic which is one point of view (and, they have suggested, an outdated one) of human intelligence. What steams my hams is that the discussions use a lot of statistical deduction and anecdotal reasoning when the article should be focussed on the history of IQ as a measure, current testing methodologies and observations about IQ supported with current research and positions by regulated, governing bodies such as the APA. What is "current"? Well, the article about IQ makes little mention of IQ malleability when the current APA position states that IQ is malleable. What does this imply? Research concluding that IQ is fixed is, in the APA's view, outdated so what in blazes is it doing in this article?! If we insist on keeping such outdated information in this article, then this article on IQ is a history article and not a science article BordenRhodes (talk) 09:36, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Language of test
So non-native speakers of English may score lower? In my experience, and this is just MY OPINION after having lived in a country where the native language is English for over 13 years, while I am NOT a native speaker, NATIVE speakers of English may score worse. People who learn English in school as their NON-native language probably do better on average. Especially in the US. Sad. 97.103.81.29 (talk) 23:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * There are different types of IQ tests. Some, like Raven's Progressive Matrices, are meant to be "culture neutral" and involve only pattern recognition (no knowledge of any writing system required). These are more widespread in Europe. Women tend to score slightly worse on them (they do better than man on language-related questions such as word scrambles, I think, so American tests are designed to make male and female scores exactly equal). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.151.60.54 (talk) 02:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Authoritative source
This review deals with hereditary and has a section on the hereditability of IQ. Should be a very authoritative and up-to-date general summary. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:37, 19 February 2009 (UTC)




 * Only because it fits nicely here under the 'references for inclusion' category, BordenRhodes (talk) 09:58, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

IQs of famous people
I would like to see a Wikipedia article listing estimated IQs of famous people. It could be called "List of estimated IQs of famous people". I am sure that someone has compiled such a list. For example I saw a reference to a U.S. Army report compiled after the Allied victory in World War II that estimated that Hitlers IQ was 136. Albert Speer's IQ was found to be 142 (Albert Speer was actually given an IQ test while imprisoned). Keraunos (talk) 23:18, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not altogether sure how meaningful comparing real measured IQs across time or between different tests, I think such estimates would say more about the estimator. That's no bar to being notable though I suppose. You might like List of fictional characters by IQ ;-) Dmcq (talk) 17:36, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What would be the use of such a list IQ estimates? Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia not a gossip column. If it's not verifiable, it doesn't belong here! BordenRhodes (talk) 09:52, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with BordenRhodes. If an IQ score was simply estimated as opposed to verified through testing, it does not belong in an encyclopedic article.  There's no telling how far off it might be.  Also, people should really be less concerned about this IQ business.  IQ is not that significant since, at most, it only approximately indicates one's mental capabilities in a handful of areas, and is nowhere near enough to measure overall "intelligence" itself. --82.31.164.172 (talk) 04:45, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

To the critique of IQ definition and the IQ tests mentioned in the article
1. Standard units of intelligence - average IQs of various age samples of population are incorrectly chosen. These values are changeable in time, hence, they can't be any standards.

2. If intelligence is measurable, then we should define one standard unit for it, but not the set of standards (for different ages). The average IQ of mankind can't be the unit due to its inconstancy with time.

3. The intelligence of any human changes with time (depending on the state throughout the day). Therefore any IQ test measures IQ only during testing, but not average IQ of the examinee. Static IQ tests (by Eysenck, Wechsler, Raven, Amthauer) are useless for measurement of average and maximum IQ an examinee since their repeated use assumes, that he does not have any memory. Procedure of testing turns to a swindle, if it pass off the during testing IQ as average IQ. The Random Intelligence Tests are able to assess average and maximum IQ. Oleg Goryunov (talk) 09:03, 4 January 2010 (UTC)


 * As far as I can make out you're saying IQ tests have lots of problems in definition and use. I fully agree. However the wikipedia article can't do anything about that, all wikipedia does is try and describe the current state as best it can in a neutral way and with citations so people can look up the various bits. Bythe way anyone can edit wikipedia but I'd look at WP:5P first for the overall principles when doing so. Dmcq (talk) 15:07, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

What's wrong with the APA's definition of IQ: "An index derived from standardized tests of intelligence; originally obtained by dividing an individual's mental age by chronological age and then multiplying by 100; now directly computed as an IQ test score"? BordenRhodes (talk) 09:43, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

IQ vs. Intelligence
Hi, I noticed that my modifications [regarding IQ not being equivalent to intelligence level, due to IQ tests testing only a small subset of skills that comprise intelligence] were removed on the grounds that common knowledge wasn't encyclopedic. These removals seem slightly nonsensical, given that many claims in the article (and other articles) that would not even pass as common knowledge (such as "The average IQ scores for many populations have been rising at an average rate of three points per decade since the early 20th century with most of the increase in the lower half of the IQ range: a phenomenon called the Flynn effect" in the introduction in this article) do not even have references yet. Now, while it is fairly apparent that IQ is not equivalent to intelligence level, it is not as apparent that "The average IQ scores for many populations have been rising at an average rate of three points per decade since the early 20th century with most of the increase in the lower half of the IQ range: a phenomenon called the Flynn effect", etc. Thus, while I suppose that claims that IQ is not equivalent to intelligence level should be supported with sufficient references, I believe that in this case, it would only make sense to also support with sources those less evident claims which currently lack references. If I receive no objection then I may soon (i) reinsert my modifications (this time supported with sufficient references), and (ii) possibly begin seeking references for those many "less evident" claims in the article that currently lack references, unless someone else wishes to take care of job ii instead. --82.31.164.172 (talk) 01:15, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No objections? --82.31.164.172 (talk) 07:09, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * This is part of the essence of wikipedia, it requiresWP:Verifiability. You need to be able to back up statements with citations, especially in an article like this one where everything is backed with peer reviewed WP:Reliable sources. Another less scientific article might get away with it especially if you remove the 'it is common knowledge' which is anaethma to wikipedia without a source saying it is common knowledge. The basic principles of wikipedia are summarized in WP:Five pillars. The verifiability policy starts with the criterion is 'verifiability not truth'. This means it is not enough to believe something is true, you must show where a reliable source says it. Editors in wikipedia are not allowed to put in WP:original research of their own. Dmcq (talk) 09:06, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * By the way the Flynn effect is cited to Flynn, J.R. (1999). "Searching for Justice: The discovery of IQ gains over time." (PDF). American Psychologist 54: 5–20. doi:10.1037/0003-066X.54.1.5. http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman/stuff_for_blog/flynn.pdf, and there is a separate article about it Flynn effect. Citations do not in general need to be given in the leader because it describes the article and anything said there should be checked by looking at an appropriate place in the article. Dmcq (talk) 09:11, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you read the Intelligence quotient section of the article about various criticisms of IQ? Dmcq (talk) 09:15, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Online IQ Tests?
I am guessing that pretty much every single one of the online IQ tests are scams, considering that they all cost money and I did so well on them. Should this be mentioned in the article?

Also, are there any online IQ tests that don't give you a random score wildly above 100, and sell the email you give? I just use my spam email, but I'd rather not.

Uber-Awesomeness (talk) 14:28, 12 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Why don't you just get yourself a book of sudoku puzzles or suchlike? It'll be cheaper and last longer Dmcq (talk) 03:02, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

This is Ridiculous, Just Beyond Ridiculous
One hundred and thirty references regarding standard methods of intelligence testing, and only 10, in the neuro science section of intelligence testing. Can't really blame Wikipedia on this one though, and I will explain why Wikipedia is valuable here; while this site is not a reliable source of information, not because the information is false, but because the authors have questionable credentials, one thing Wikipedia IS valuable for, is as a sort of "meme." That is, Wikipedia reflects where knowledge is emphasized, it reflects, where all the work is REALLY being done in the world of science. The more references a Wiki article has, the more that area of a scientific field is being emphasized, hence, therein lies Wikipedia's true value.

Now, as to why 130 references is "ridiculous;" what intelligence testing reflects, is that the world of Psychology operates more on what I will acuse as being well-rationalized conjecture with big words masquerading as "science," and not enough hard evidence, which Neuro Science, can provide. At the risk of sounding like Dr. Frankenstein, intelligence tests scientists? Get in the brain itself, or shut the @$%#$ up. Sorry for posting this inflamatory thing, but it needs to be said; there is too much intelligence testing being done testing the brain's reaction, and too little, on how the brain actually functions, when solving a problem. There are 130 sources on this article, but only 10, on the neuro science article on intelligence, and that is just a crime, on several levels. Science demands hard evidence, not answered questions on well designed tests. Unfortunately the technology to measure human cognition is expensive, so that is a contributing factor as to why not enough work is done neurobiologically speaking.

I hold a Bachelor's degree in Psychology, so I can speak with SOME authority on the subject; textbook after textbook during my studies in college, very few of them dealt with neuroscience. Actually truth be told none of them did, except the ONE required class, where you learn all about the central and peripheral nervous system. You encounter all that terminology; neurons, dendritres, axons, the myelin sheath, etc, in addition to the fact that nerve cells have more mitochondrion in them than all other body cells, making nerves and neurons the most oxygen starved cells in the body. There isn't nearly enough work done on neurobiology, as there is clearly a lack of interest of finding HARD evidence regarding I.Q. scores.

Why am I so angry? You want to get a high verbal I.Q. score, just read the dictionary; I'm serious, just read the dictionary. You want to score high on the factoids portion of the WAIS, just read an encyclopedia cover to cover. You want to score well on the patterns portion, just play lots and lots of video games. Number memorization, play number games, and so on. On a grown adult the effects are only temporary, "studying" for an I.Q. test, however on a child the effects are permanent. One thing that is well established in Language Psychology, is that the best time for a human being to learn a foreign language, is during the crucial "window" period. Language is not wired into the brain, it needs to be learned; if that window is missed, the person will never learn to speak naturally, the tragic cases of Genie, and the French wild child, demonstrated this.

What does language have to do with I.Q.? In the end, its all "data" to the brain; if children exposed to several languages will become tri, quadri, or quinti lingual in adulthood, as a result of that exposure, then it stands to reason that early exposure to data crunching considered "intelligence" by a given culture would maximize a child's I.Q. REGARDLESS of race. Why can all of us speak English efficiently for example? Because we have all had early exposure as children; the human brain works much the same way with other forms of data, it can even be trained, to "acquire" data at high speed.

Frankly though, I do not think I.Q. researchers, are interested in either equality, or human rights and no I am not apologizing for how I closed this.

67.148.120.103 (talk) 00:55, 25 February 2010 (UTC)stardingo747


 * Wikipedia isn't a blog for personal opinions, the talk page is for discussing improving the article. If you have something with a citation that seems worthwhile putting in or some comments about altering the article that would be good. Dmcq (talk) 08:32, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Does anyone with real wisdom believe that there is any such thing as 'general intelligence'? IQ tests are purely visual yet we have five senses. A blind man would presumably have an IQ of zero as he would be unable to complete any of the tests. Or a musical genius like Duke Ellington had a low IQ.  SmokeyTheCat    •TALK•  07:46, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Nature Precedings as a reliable source?
I am a bit worried by the use of Nature Precedings as a reference for recent edit. I'll raise it at the reliable sources noticeboard and see what they think. Reading through the paper I had some misgivings, it might be true but I felt it needed a bit more thought to establish properly. Dmcq (talk) 22:25, 22 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It looks like preprints are allowed if the author is noted in the area. So this is probably okay as David Marks (psychologist) has published in the area. Someone else seems to have deleted it though, I just leave it for the moment for others to argue about. Dmcq (talk) 14:09, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

'Some tests may have different standard deviations.'
A part of the introduction reads:

"Although the term "IQ" is still in common use, the scoring of modern IQ tests such as the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale is now based on a projection of the subject's measured rank on the Gaussian bell curve with a center value (average IQ) of 100, and a standard deviation of 15, although different tests may have different standard deviations."

Why would different tests have different standard deviations? Surely if they do they must be an inadequate IQ test, for example

Person takes IQ Test 1 - gets an IQ of 120 - IQ Test 1 has a standard deviation of 20.

Person takes IQ Test 2 - gets an IQ of 115 - IQ Test 2 has a standard deviation of 15.

These two people actually have the same IQ though only the latter test is a proper IQ test. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.78.15.238 (talk) 13:09, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

This a question of priorities: Typically the goal is to have an expectation value of around 100 and to give results of as good quality as possible in a certain range. Fixing the standard deviation, OTOH, need not be a priority, and it is easy to see e.g. that a test with "target range" of 70--130 can have a different standard variation that one for 120--150, or that different methodologies and opinions in the construction stage can lead to different results in practice.88.77.143.153 (talk) 01:07, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The way the tests are scored is adjusted to give the standard deviation they want and this is quite a simple task. The raw figures of a few thousand trials are simply put in order and then mapped to a cumulative normal distribution with the required average and standard deviation to give the IQ result - and thy simply use that mapping for any further tests. The mapping used to be via quantiles rather than straight top the normal distribution whch is why some tests had a standard deviation like 13.6 rather than a clean number like 15. Dmcq (talk) 11:42, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * This is an interesting question from the point of vie of intelligence. Since the standard deviation of IQ tests is set in a completely articicial manner, is there a natural scale for intelligence of any sort? For instance one person can be twice as tall as another or ten time the weight - is there some natural way of thinking abouyt intelligence that would say in what matter intelligence varies? There certainly isn't one at the moment and I haven't the foggiest idea how one could come to even a fairly vague idea of such a natural standard. Dmcq (talk) 11:51, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I would answer the question you raise a little differently from the last kind answer you received. When norming of an IQ test is done, the test publisher gives the test to a sample of the general population, and observes the attained item-content scores of each test-taker. Irrespective of whether the distribution of test scores is normal (Gaussian) there will be a standard deviation of the scores found in the sample. The test publishers, in current practice, then use the standard deviation of item-content performance observed in the norming administration as a standard scoring scale, in most cases taking each standard deviation to be 15 IQ points. None of this depends on any assumption that the distribution of IQ test performance is strictly Gaussian, according to all the current sources I have read on the subject. (Yes, this raises an interesting question, with regard to editing the article, about what to do about the main page illustration. Where is there any verifiability for the illustration caption?) WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 21:17, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi WeijiBaikeBianji, I have written an answer to your question about the caption on the Talk:Intelligence page.  Lova Falk     talk   16:34, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Yerkes' team "abolished?"
"The army abolished Yerkes’ team after the war but employed two psychologists to continue intelligence testing research."

The term abolished seems very odd in this context. Since intelligence testing research continued (though Yerkes' team did not), a better way of saying it would be, "The army disbanded Yerkes' team..." If no-one objects, I'll make that change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tedd (talk • contribs) 23:57, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Removed Gould disposition information
Removed the information as it is inferring without explicitly citing a source that Gould's disposition is the cause of his opinion. This is not a neutral point of view unless supported by a citation which will bring into question Goulds bias because of his background. Wikipedia is not the place for original research and criticizing, be it constructive or negative is precisely that. Matt Zero (talk) 16:20, 19 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I fully agree with the removal. What was written was WP:SYNTH. Dmcq (talk) 16:27, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Even if Gould is biased because of his background, it's not sure it is relevant. Most people are (more or less) biased because of their background, but they can still have perfectly valid point of views. Gould's criticism should be met with criticism of what he says, not of who he is.  Lova Falk     talk   18:24, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Heritability
I just removed a study about a particular gene. Theres a separate article on Heritability of IQ referenced from this article as the main article about heritability. The individual genes have a second hand relation to intelligence quotient but are related directly to heritability of intelligence. This article should just give the overall stuff, not delve into the details of genes. Dmcq (talk) 12:25, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that. By the way, the Heritability of IQ article seems to fall into a common conceptual error found in most discussions of heritability--it discusses genetic influences on IQ much more than it discusses environmental influences, and yet the term "heritability" is just the name for the mathematical result of a pre-Mendelian procedure that attempts to find the balance of both kinds of influences on a particular trait in a particular population. That article needs more help from sources that meet reliable sources standards for medicine-related articles, and I have been looking those up to prepare to edit that article for NPOV. All these articles are pretty long, so they need to be edited for encyclopedic, summary treatment of each topic, with the use of moving content that you exemplified and wikilinking to keep each article from growing without bound. Let's remember too that Wikipedia policies and guidelines much prefer secondary sources about established general facts to primary sources about particular new findings. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 15:58, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Movement of bell curve image.
The article has led off for a while with an image of a bell curve, drawn by another Wikipedian. Lova Falk has kindly found a source for a statement about IQ tests that has long been in the image caption here. I am about to move that image to another section of the article, nearer to where Wechsler's innovation of "deviation IQ" scoring is discussed. Once I do that move, I will also put in as a new illustration for the lede section a data table based on Alan S. Kaufman's new book IQ Testing 101, a very good book for anyone who wants to know more about IQ testing to read. Other substantive edits to the article will gradually follow, but meanwhile I will continue to update my Intelligence Citations list for articles on this and related topics. There are a lot of new sources that make for very enjoyable reading and good bases for updating this article. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 23:57, 1 August 2010 (UTC)