Talk:International Third Position

The hypocrisy is palpable, their antiZionism is just anti Jewish as they support Apartheid and White Nationalism, colonialism while opposing the Jewish Zionist State I don't object to characterizing International Third Position as neofascist or a form of national socialism and think those are accurate terms for the group. What I was objecting to was (1) the characterizing of International Third Position as part of the Third Way (UK) political party, which is factually inaccurate as they are two different groups; and (2) the characterization of Third Way (UK) as right-wing or neofascist in any sense. What we have here are two groups which resulted from a split in the British National Front in the 1980s, but that's the only connection. International Third Position still follows right-wing Strasserite ideology, Third Way (UK) has become essentially a group of the left and its leadership has renounced racism and fascism. Barring any evidence to the contrary, I'll take their word for it. Kaibabsquirrel 18:08, 30 May 2005 (UTC)


 * But since a number of critics argue that the Third Way (UK) is just another variation of right-wing populism or its more zealous cousin neofascism (social credit is a clue), then there has to be some way to state that in an NPOV way.--Cberlet 19:47, 30 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Social credit does not automatically intersect with racism or neofascism. Anyway both of the articles now look acceptably NPOV in their present forms if they're okay with you. Kaibabsquirrel 20:23, 30 May 2005 (UTC)


 * True, true, but a clue for more digging. Indeed, both look fine, and your points are well taken.  Thanks for the edits.--Cberlet 00:08, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

manifesto?
I cut the manifesto below cos it wasn't wikified or placed in context, just looked like a text dump from a website. I'm not going to do work on it but if folk want to take the salient info to put in the article, here it is. Chaikney 15:09, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

The International Third Position 10 Point Declaration

The International Third Position is a spiritually motivated world view which rejects the received wisdom of the modern world that all peoples and cultures are doomed forever to choosing between Left and Right, Socialism and Capitalism. Based upon a sound knowledge of human nature and its interests, the Third Position does not seek an unviable centrism, but a mode of Thought and Action that truly transcends the sterile hatreds of the modern world. The Third Position, therefore, is the political creed of the twenty-first century.

1. THE PRIMACY OF SPIRIT. 2. THE MORAL ORDER. 3. OPPOSITION TO MATERIALISM. 4. ZIONISM AND THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE. 5. THE IDEAL OF POPULAR RULE. 6. RACIAL AND CULTURAL DIVERSITY. 7. PRESERVATION OF THE ENVIRONMENT. 8. THE MENACE OF BANKERDOM. 9. A THIRD POSITION ON OWNERSHIP. 10. NATIONAL REVOLUTION WORLDWIDE.

1. THE PRIMACY OF SPIRIT. It is an integral part of our political tradition that Man is, self-evidently, a complex of Spirit and Matter, and that the primacy lies with the Spirit. Without an all-pervading spiritual revolution - a method of purification and improvement carried on by the individual for a life time - our militants will not differ in any essential sense from the degenerates who have given rise to the horrors of the modern world, and who have acted upon a purely materialist conception of Life and History. It is the belief of the Third Position that worldwide National Revolution can only be achieved by the moulding of a New Man, a militant who practises what he preaches. Such a New Man must embody our ideal in such a way that he acts in himself as the highest form of propaganda for the Third Position in the community in which he lives and works. It is equally the belief of the Third Position that the splendour of Europe, viewed historically and culturally, has its roots in the doctrine and practice of the Christian Faith. If, therefore, Europe is to regain its sense of Destiny and Mission, it must return sincerely and wholeheartedly to the Faith. As each individual develops his spiritual qualities, Europe will move forward thereby to a New Imperium.

2. THE MORAL ORDER.

Since the degeneracy of the modern world is founded upon immorality and amorality, it stands to reason that a regenerate world can only be built upon Moral Order and Christian standards of living. The Third Position believes that it is vital that people understand that, contrary to the propaganda of the mass media of contemporary society, there does exist Right and Wrong, Truth and Falsehood, Good and Bad in our world, and not a range of equally valid opinions and choices as materialists claim. Moral Order, to have any real meaning, is necessarily founded upon the immutable principle that only Truth has rights. Since the Family is the primary element and centre of any healthy society, it follows that its strength and unity are essential to the stability, happiness and development of the Nation in all its aspects, material and spiritual. For this reason, the Third Position opposes any and all agencies and policies which seek to restrict, undermine or destroy Family Life in any way whatsoever. Furthermore, we believe that healthy societies and large families go hand in hand; consequently, we believe that the State is duty bound to do all in its power to make large families the norm in our society. The Third Position asserts that it is wholly opposed to the "legalization" of Abortion, artificial birth control, Euthanasia, Divorce, Homosexuality, Genetic Experimentation on Humans at any age and Vivisection, since they contravene God's Law and Objective Truth in the most blatant manner, and wholly negate the life-giving principles of the Third Position as an Ideology and Way of Life. The Third Position likewise asserts that for this Moral Order to come into being, it is vital that the young, as well as future generations, are taught not merely book knowledge, but also the path of self-sacrifice and spiritual perfection, which give rise to individuals that are virtuous and honourable. By such means, we will raise a people qualitatively superior in all respects to the increasingly dehumanized hordes deliberately being turned out by contemporary "education".

3. OPPOSITION TO MATERIALISM.

The French Revolution of 1789 was the primary event which thrust philosophical materialism onto the world stage. In the intervening two centuries, the power of Organized Naturalism in all its diverse forms - that is to say, the systematic tendency to deny in theory and practice the reality of Soul and Spirit - has grown steadily to the point that it now threatens to engulf the entire world. Materialism in its war with the Spirit has taken on many forms; some have promoted its goals with great subtlety, whilst others have done so with an alarming lack of subtlety, but all have added, in greater or lesser measure, to the growing misery of Mankind. The forms which have done the most damage in our time may be enumerated as: Freemasonry, Liberalism, Nihilism, Capitalism, Socialism, Marxism, Imperialism, Anarchism, Modernism and the New Age. Each of these creeds - materialist at base - is philosophically wrong and discredited in practice. Thus, the Third Position condemns them all unreservedly, and affirms that opposition to all forms of Materialism is central to the ideology of the Third Position.

4. ZIONISM AND THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

Zionism as an organized political movement is little more than a century old, and yet in that time it has built a power structure of colossal proportions that straddles the globe. This structure includes not only the illegal Israeli regime, set up on the stolen land of Palestine, but also the power bases that Zionists have constructed in the spheres of Politics, Economics and the Media, especially in the USA and Europe. Needless to say, this power structure exists to serve and extend the interests of International Jewry, and this can only be done at the expense of the indigenous populations who have lost control of their countries to this discriminatory creed. In Palestine, Zionist control has taken on a brutal and overt form, whilst in the West it has tended to be a great deal more subtle in its methods; but methods aside, the result is the same. Whilst the Zionist colossus exists, our nations are being denied their right to national self-determination. It is an intolerable position, and one that cannot. The Third Position affirms that it is resolutely opposed to the political, economic and territorial imperialism of the Zionist movement, and proclaims that all peoples have a right to determine their destiny unmolested, directly or indirectly, by the Zionist power. The Third Position also rejects the Arafat Puppet State that has been set up at the behest of the powers that be behind the New World Order, since its very existence negates the core belief of the Palestinian National Movement: that the whole of Palestine be governed by its true inhabitants, the Palestinians. Any Treaty, any political diversion, which denies this principle in its integrity is necessarily unjust, and must be opposed by all those who seek True Peace and Justice.

5. THE IDEAL OF POPULAR RULE. It is a core belief of the Third Position that harmony and peace within nations and between nations can only be truly attempted if each nation seeks to create an essential unity that transcends sectional or vested interests. For far too long the destiny of nations has been the plaything of corrupt political parties, power cliques and outright tyrants; it is now more urgent than ever that the material and spiritual integrity of the Nation and Culture comes into its own. It is the belief of the Third Position that this vital unity can only be achieved through the implementation of a thorough-going programme of decentralization, particularly in the political sphere where power continues to be centralized day by day. This programme of political decentralization we call Popular Rule. In its essence, it is a system of self-government by the people which starts at the level of the lowest socially viable unit, and extends through a series of organically linked structures to the national level. It is the direct participation of the entire adult population in the decision-making process - local, regional and national - and draws its strength from the fact that the entire people express their wishes and have these acted upon by duly appointed delegates. However, the people themselves must act within the Moral Order if their wishes are to be valid; that is to say, the people do not make the "truth" by voting, rather their political actions must conform to Objective Truth. If this were not so, we would be confronted by a crass majoritarianism where "truth" would vary from one day to the next, according to the mood of the people. Beyond the Individual, there will exist two distinct institutions whose tasks will include the upholding of the rights of Truth. Firstly, the State seen not merely as an economic entity, but one also possessed of political and social powers and duties.

The Third Position asserts that all healthy societies are built upon recognition of God's Law and the rights of Truth, and not upon the civil constitutions and Bills of Rights that have been foisted upon us by vested interests striving to promote liberalism and relativism. It is foreseen that the clear enunciation of Moral principles by the Church will assist the citizen in daily, secular duties - to the benefit of Church, Society and Individual.

6. RACIAL AND CULTURAL DIVERSITY.

That the human species is comprised of a patchwork of differing races and cultures is a matter of commonsense, and yet there are, incredibly, those who would destroy this richness and diversity in humanity in order to replace it with a rootless mass, lacking identity and history. In such a nightmare world the very words Race, Nation and Culture would cease to have any meaning at all. In other words, this forced multi-racism is seeking to destroy the living soil within which all peoples have their roots, their identity, their being. The Third Position rejects any and all attempts to impose this inhuman conformity on Mankind, whether it be advanced by slick television propaganda, or at the point of a gun. The Third Position insists that it is both healthy and divinely ordained that people should have a genuine love and preference for their own kind; it likewise insists that this healthy instinct must be complemented by a sincere respect for those of differing race and culture who act upon the same principle. As a consequence, the Third Position supports the concept of Racial Separatism whereby different peoples and cultures co-operate in an atmosphere of respect and understanding to their mutual benefit, preserving one another from the abyss of multi-racism. In the struggle to preserve human diversity, resettlement of races to their countries of origin will play a major role, and will directly aid the struggle to build a more peaceful world.

7. PRESERVATION OF THE ENVIRONMENT.

Every sane individual, wherever in the world he may be, wishes to live in an environment that is both beautiful and healthy. Given that the membership of the Third Position is drawn increasingly from across the globe, it follows that it is committed to ensuring that all nations and cultures act to preserve the beauty and balance of the world that we all share, to our mutual benefit. However, this desire does not necessitate the creation of all-powerful global police bodies - as eco-fanatics and New Agers advocate - but rather the creation of a real and genuine understanding between nations of one another's needs. The flora, fauna and great waterways of the world exist in a complex and dynamic relationship, a relationship that allows Mankind to live and develop. It is clearly in the interests of all to preserve this life-giving relationship. For this reason, the Third Position affirms that it will act as a body to restrain the destruction of our common home, whether it be through the greed of the capitalist corporation; the mania for industrialization of Socialism; the rapacity of the international banking houses; or our would-be masters of the New World Order. Man has the primacy over Nature by divine right, but that primacy is one of stewardship and husbandry, and the passing on to future generations of a better world than the one inherited. The Third Position believes that in a sane social order there is a vital balance to be struck between Ruralism and Urbanism. In and of itself, Ruralism is by far the healthier, for it possesses all that is essential to life, but this does not detract from the fact that a complementary urbanism - made up of hamlets, villages, market towns, centres of non-polluting technological advance, light industry and research institutes - can add much of use and benefit to human existence. This balance between Ruralism and Urbanism is held to be central to the worldview of the Third Position, for it determines, directly or indirectly, so much else of the programme of the Third Position.

8. THE MENACE OF BANKERDOM. No rational person could seriously deny that Money, the love of it and the scramble for it, dominates the modern world in a degree hitherto unknown in the history of Mankind. Increasingly, the very right to existence of individuals, families, communities, regions, nations and cultures is determined by an alleged "economic viability", as though Money was the sole standard of importance in all the crucial questions of Life. In other words, Money, which was originally no more than a useful means of facilitating life in an increasingly complex society, has come to be the Judge of all things in Life and Society. Such a perversion of True Order has, not surprisingly, wrought misery and horror on a grotesque scale: cynically provoked wars; famines; pollution; genocide; grinding poverty; social manipulation; crass consumerism; youth suicide; widespread alcoholism; disintegrating families. The Third Position asserts that Money is nothing more than a lowly servant of Man and Society, a servant that must be compelled to work for the Common Good of all, both within and between nations. It further asserts that since the modern Banking System is practising the most refined usury the world has ever known, it follows that we will campaign for its destruction, and replace it with a social banking system based on Sound Money. As a result, all debt, be it domestic, national or international, which springs from usury will be cancelled without compensation, and the bank owners will be compelled to make restitution to their unfortunate victims. The Third Position believes that International Finance is one of the greatest evils of the modern world, and thus is intrinsically hostile to the programme of the Third Position.

9. A THIRD POSITION ON OWNERSHIP. The Third Position believes that there is a mode of ownership - in industry, in agriculture, in domestic circles - which goes far beyond the inhuman and unjust concentration wrought by both Capitalism and Socialism, and which apart from being pre-eminently practical is also perfectly natural, and in accordance with human nature. In the English-speaking world, this alternative is known as Distributism, an alternative developed and popularized by two fine English writers, Hilaire Belloc and G.K. Chesterton. This form of ownership occurs in an economy which is decentralized to the smallest, viable unit and thus results in a plethora of producer and service co-operatives, small businesses, craft workshops, Guild structures, artisanal associations, small holdings, family firms and family farms. It is a mode of ownership which promotes individual initiative and creativity, and yet does so only within the framework of the Common Good. It is the natural conjunction of Individual Freedom with Social Justice. Given the total failure of Socialism, with its unnatural bureaucracy and inefficiency, and given the exploitation and gross inequality that result from Capitalism's so-called "Free Market", it is evident that Distributism is going to be the socio-economic creed of the twenty-first century.

10. NATIONAL REVOLUTION WORLDWIDE. It is because the Third Position seeks to build a New Social Order that it recognizes that all peoples and cultures, who adhere to the basic tenets of the Third Position, must work together closely in an air of mutual trust and support. Since the victory of a National Revolution in one part of the world is a victory for all Third Positionists, it follows that each affiliated member must be prepared to give moral, financial or technical assistance, where possible, should a revolutionary situation emerge in any given country. Parochialism in an age when the One World Ideology is striding to total victory is a complete negation of everything we profess, and thus is vigorously rejected by the Third Position. Source: The Third Position Handbook, pp 8-14. 1997 The Third Position - This article is confused between the party, and the ideology. As there are several organisations that are third positionist (and third positionist links here) I suggest we split the article into one on the party and one on the ideology. Secretlondon 20:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

GrumpyTroll trolling - NPOV
GrumpyTroll has repeatedly replaced the description "right-wing" by "left-wing" in the introduction. i'm putting in an NPOV dispute tag to hear other people's interpretations. GrumpyTroll - if you are a troll, then you should leave the wikipedia. If you wish to help build the wikipedia, then please explain why you wish to put the left-wing label here in contradiction to the externally referenced facts in the article. Boud 17:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Me, trolling? I am not a troll. I wish to put the left-wing label there, because it better describes the British National Party's ideology than the right-wing label, as very rightly expressed by Lord Tebbit. Grumpy Troll (talk) 18:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC).

Correction: The first line of the British National Front article has the adjective far right. If you think that that is inaccurate, then please discuss that with people working on the BNF page, not here. Please read WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. Thanks. Boud 17:11, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe that is innacurate, but I simply cannot be bothered to discuss than with bigoted lefties who which to associate the racist, leftist BNP and the Right. Grumpy Troll (talk) 18:25, 13 August 2006 (UTC).
 * If you wish to support your claim that the BNF is left-wing "as expressed by Lord Tebbit", then you are going to have to discuss that with whoever works on the British National Front page and provide an external reference on that page and come to a WP:NPOV over there. If there is consensus to change the summary on that page, then you can come back here and bring a few words from the NPOV summary here. Boud 18:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

GrumpyTroll clearly does not know what left and right wing mean or he wouldn't do this. Of course he doesn't want to discuss with "bigoted lefties" - they know what left means and know the BNP isn't. Suggest removal of the NPOV tag, and keep a good watch on BNP avtivists trying to shift their place in the political spectrum in WIkipedia. Emeraude 18:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)