Talk:International recognition of Kosovo/Archive 38

Saint Lucia recognised the Republic of Kosovo
According to Telegrafi, the recognition note verbale from Saint Lucia has arrived at the Kosovar MFA, see. Kosovar (talk) 17:03, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
 * And, Kosovar Ministry of Foreign Affairs confirms the recognition, see . Kosovar (talk) 17:06, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Possible Ugandan recognition
The Ugandan FM has sent a letter to DPM Pacolli promising to consider the recognition of Kosovo "in line with the ICJ ruling". --alchaemia (talk) 07:26, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I've added something to the article. Thanks, Bazonka (talk) 08:37, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

New Libya government recognized Kosovo
Kosovo receives recognition from the new government of Libya Kosovo receives recognition from the new government of Libya

Kosovo foreign ministry says it is following closely the latest developments in efforts to overthrow the dictatorial regime of Muammar Gaddafi.

Kosovo's government and people support the efforts of the Libyan people for freedom, dignity and democracy, said in announcing the MFA.

Furthermore, note that the Kosovo foreign ministry is coordinating with international partners in Kosovo, so that in the coming weeks, to deepen cooperation between the authorities of New ...

http://www.botasot.info/def.php?category=3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Denizlin24 (talk • contribs) 16:50, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Shouldn't this be added to the list of recognisers? Gaddaffi's position is no longer relevant to Libya. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.239.242 (talk) 19:05, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Not yet. Gaddafi is still the official leader of Libya - of course this could all change very soon. Bazonka (talk) 20:46, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm just watching the news right now... it is pretty much all over. But in any case, we must wait until a new government is installed and has made an official declaration of recognition. We might want to consider writing something in the non-recognisers section though. Bazonka (talk) 21:06, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks definitely write something in the non recognisers section because the old position is no longer up-to-date but don't most countries now recognise the new Libyan government as the legitimate government of Libya. When will Gadafi be no longer official? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.239.242 (talk) 21:18, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Now, excuse me for saying you might be wrong here on this issue.But let us go from scratch Gadaffi controles what part of Libya now? Does he even have Tripoli under his control? Most of foreign consulates and embassies of Libya around the world are now flying flag of rebels, revolutionaries, call it as you wish.So, i really dont think this would be proper stament, as if i were to say.I own 1/16 of this room, and now excuse me, others have more then me.But im in position of power, or im here to decide, what's what.So, this would be either

Fallacious statement on my behalf Distortion of truth Lie

So,since all those statements have same meaning.What do you really think? Should you write

Official Libyan government?But then yet again?What is now really official government?In what bunker is that government by now?.Its like somebody saying.Official German government on 8 th of May,1945 said.We dont recognize this country, because....Fill in the blanks.These days this would mean that Libya did recognize Kosovo.And im sorry

Perhaps you should slightly edit Libya.And write following

Libya rebels, revolutionaries, those who controll most of Libya and 95% of Tripoli recognized Kosovo.And i believe this in fact.Means that we should perhaps, as im hoping you would agree here.Put Libya as one of those countries that recognize Kosovo.Unless if we really think that this Government that hides in a bunker, or god knows where.Is real and legit government of Libya???? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Denizlin24 (talk • contribs) 21:20, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Libya is a mess at present. There isn't really a government, neither Gaddafi or the rebels have proper control. Let's wait a few days for things to settle down. And, unless we have a definite statement of recognition from the rebels, then we can't move them to the recognisers section yet. Despite the title of this article, the text below indicates that recognition isn't quite in place yet. Bazonka (talk) 07:15, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

France is lobbying for recognition of the new state of Kosovo
France is lobbying for recognition of the new state of Kosovo

"Very soon we expect new recognition for Kosovo," said French Ambassador in Pristina, Jean-François Fitou, which has indirectly admitted that the recent recognition of Kosovo who have come are well deserving of France. "Recognition of the latter does not surprise me. Wheel of knowledge goes only one direction. There will be many new knowledge, not less. "

"I know that the Kosovo Government is working hard to get as much recognition and that all of Kosovo's friends, including my government are contributing in this regard. Sometimes we pay off and sometimes we have to wait. Obviously we are lobbying for new knowledge, are making this the whole year, "said Radio Dukagjini Fitou.

Fitou Ambassador expressed optimism that soon Kosovo will take the new knowledge. "We are helping and supporting the Government's efforts to increase the number of recognitions and are very happy when we pay off this support. I very much hope that soon we will have new recognitions, "said French Ambassador.

Last week, three former French colony, Guinea, Nigeria and Benin have recognized Kosovo's independence. While analysts estimate that the friction between the Kosovo Ministry of Foreign Affairs and first deputy prime minister of Kosovo, Behgjet Pacolli, on the merits of the recent recognition of Kosovo, are totally unnecessary and harmful for Kosovo. http://www.telegrafi.com/?id=2&a=16574 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Denizlin24 (talk • contribs) 18:13, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * How can we possibly use this information in the article? There is no news here. Bazonka (talk) 20:42, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

It means some of those former French colonies, now countries will recognize Kosovo very soon.So, now if we understand some history of this area, and if we were to guess.Countries in question would be:Togo, Ivory Coast,Mali,Cameroon.I dont think Algeria would recognize Kosovo.And i think French didnt have colonies in Eastern Africa(Tanzania, Kenya, Mozambique..etc.So this bit of information would suggest to us, that some of those former French colonies would recognize Kosovo.Since i  mentioned the word some this would mean plural.So, im sure that French ambassador in Pristhina is giving us hint, that some of those countries will recognize Kosovo very soon, meaning perhaps this year, because i really dont think we would wait for 2018 recognition there.Best to be ready for some of those recognitions, very soon.I think Ivory Coast, who has now new governemt will recognize Kosovo soon.Its really shamefull we didnt or we still dont have any good background info on Togo or Cameroon, for their stance on Kosovo issue, but who am i to guess.Im neither mod, admin or even person who does writes articles on Kosovo.Was trying to be helpfull here  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Denizlin24 (talk • contribs) 21:11, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If you can find any new information on Togo, Cameroon, etc. then great. I appreciate that you're trying to be helpful, but conjecture and speculation is not really useful. WP:NOTAFORUM Bazonka (talk) 21:18, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Cool.Well how about this, since this is not a forum.French ambassador in Prishtina, who is i believe more competent to say what not then me?.Is saying.Some of former French colonies will recognize Kosovo?Today?.Im not speculating here, since there are now only few of French speaking countries, that didnt recognize Kosovo?So, i believe this is relevant news on the ground, since i didnt put this news from my imagination Denizlin24 (talk) 21:26, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

This is interesting and all, but it's not actionable for the article. There's nothing in it we can add to the page. As the others have said, stories like this don't belong on the discussion page. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 22:12, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Non-member state Observer status at the UN General Assembly
If recent reports are correct, then recognition by the 12 remaining sovereign members of CARICOM would take recognition by UN members to 93, tantalisingly close to 97, which would be a majority of UN members. Actual membership of the UN would still be some way off, as acquiescence by Russia and China in the Security Council would be required as well as a two-thirds majority in the General Assembly. Neither of these requirements look very likely any time soon. However, the General Assembly, by a simple majority can invite a non-member state to become an observer non-member state, a status that is currently enjoyed only by the Holy See (and was by Switzerland until as recently as 2002), and may soon be granted to Palestine (which is currently treated as an observer "entity" rather than as a non-member state).The only caveat I would add is that a majority of the General Assembly could in theory decide that an invitation to become an observer state should be an "important question" and would thus require a two-thirds majority to pass, but this is hardly likely if a majority of member states were determined to offer observer status to the Republic of Kosovo. I haven't seen any articles yet which suggest that Kosovo is going to seek Observer State status but maybe we could work this into the UN part of Positions taken by intergovernmental organisations section somehow, even though it is, at the moment at least, conjecture. Moldovanmickey (talk) 18:12, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


 * ...and what is your point? What does this have to do with "International recognition of Kosovo"? What does this have to do with the article? Also Palestine is already an observer, they're applying for full membership next month. IJA (talk) 10:54, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


 * IJA, I'm not sure I appreciate your tone. The article does have a section on positions taken by International Organisations; there is, for example, some conjecture in the Council of Europe's section on Kosovo's future membership, even though Kosovo has not yet applied for membership of that organisation. Rather obviously, I would have thought, if the General Assembly were to allow the Republic of Kosovo to become an observer on the same basis as the Holy See, then the UN General Assembly as a body would effectively be recognising Kosovo's independence, notwithstanding the fact that many of it members would be against it.The situation has not arisen yet,so maybe it is too early to update the article, and yes it is conjecture, but it is something to be aware of in the coming weeks. We could, for example, add a sentence that would make a reader aware that by a simple majority, the General Assembly could invite the Republic of Kosovo to become an observer non-member state. This would be an important development: if Kosovo were to be given observer basis on the same basis as the Holy See, for example (see General Assembly Resolution 58/314 here) then it would have all the rights of membership except for the right to vote. Palestine is currently not an observer on the same basis as the Holy See per the General Assembly website here,where it is treated as an entity rather than a state.  Moldovanmickey (talk) 12:05, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


 * What I was saying is that it isn't relevant to this article and that WP:NOTAFORUM should be taken into consideration with what you're saying. Kosovo potentially becoming an Observer at the UNGA is better suited at Foreign relations of Kosovo not here as this article is solely about the recognition/ non-recognition of Kosovo. Have you even got a source suggesting that Kosovo is considering becoming a UN observer or is this just speculation/ an educated guess? IJA (talk) 16:49, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


 * As you will have seen from my previous posts, I made clear I do not have a source for it. All I was suggesting was a small addition to the UN section, citing the UN Charter regarding General Assembly Resolutions might have been useful, as the article does detail the difficulty of full membership. As I don't appear to have garnered any support on this, I'm not proposing amending the article. Moldovanmickey (talk) 12:34, 22 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Like I said mate, I think this is more suitable at Foreign relations of Kosovo as it isn't about recognition as such. If you want to add something there then by all means feel free to do so, WP:BEBOLD. Just make sure it isn't WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH. Regards IJA (talk) 13:44, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say it's at least partially about recognition as admission as an observer members means an automatic recognition of your statehood by the UN as a whole. --alchaemia (talk) 14:19, 22 August 2011 (UTC)


 * But Palestine is in the UN as observer but is recognised as an Entity not a state in the UN. So not necessarily. IJA (talk) 14:23, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yet, that's exactly his point. If the UN General Assembly votes to admit Kosovo as an non-member state observer, it will mean that it recognizes its statehood. Palestine is a separate case, and all of that is discussed here: [] --alchaemia (talk) 21:34, 22 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for understanding the point I was making, Alchaemia. However,I would certainly not edit the article off my on bat unless a balance of editors who regularly contribute were to support it. Moldovanmickey (talk) 22:44, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Caricom state recognized Kosovo, which one ?
According to Behgjet Pacolli.This will be known today or tommorow, name of that state

Behgjet Pacolli Office, through a press release, is attracting today's statement earlier that Kosovo will be recognized by a state CARICOM'it.

"Office of the Deputy Prime Pacolli informs that these days, Kosovo will also recognize another state's Caricomit," said the communique.

Later, in press statements Pacolli clarified in today's Government meeting.

"About introducing misunderstood the statement of Deputy Behgjet Pacolli in meeting the Government for recognition by countries Caricomit (community of Caribbean states). Deputy Pacolli in his speech, informed the cabinet on notice that Caricomit countries will recognize the Republic of Kosovo, as states separately and not block, "said the communique.

"Misunderstanding has occurred with some media that I have quoted these words of residence as a retreat from Caricomit countries to recognize Kosovo as an independent and sovereign," said press.

Alternatively, Behgjet Pacolli Office warned in the morning that today will present next to the state recognition of Kosovo.

"A state of CARICOM'it countries has recognized Kosovo's independence. During the day, becomes public knowledge, "said Express Jetlir Zymberaj, Advisor to the Deputy Behgjet Pacolli.

He did not want to tell the state will recognize Kosovo's independence today.

"Everything will be known at a press conference," he said.

http://www.gazetaexpress.com/index.php?cid=1,13,61332 Denizlin24 (talk) 14:23, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Nigeria recognition next week?Caricom wont recognize Kosovo unilaterally
Some new spoilers.Pacolli has returned to Kosovo.And hes giving us some more hints and spoilers of what has happened to his African campaign

Recognition of Nigeria, next week 25-08-2011 13:13 CET

Vice / PM Behgjet Pacolli cabinet announced details for the lobbying that has developed in Africa during these weeks. Good news and bad has made.

He is convinced that one of the largest states with significant African, Nigeria, next week to formalize the recognition, reporting indeksonline.

According Pacolli, President Goodluck Jonathan, has already given the order for writing the note verbale. Mali and Gabon are the other two African states that can quickly recognize Kosovo.

But Pacolli has announced that CARICOM has withdrawn the decision for recognition as an organization. He claimed that each country individually will decide whether to recognize.

Kosovo Kosovo last week received recognition 4, bringing to 81 the number of states that recognize.

Pacolli attracts word?

Behgjet Pacolli Office, through a press release, is attracting today's statement earlier that Kosovo will be recognized by a state CARICOM'it.

"Office of the Deputy Prime Pacolli informs that these days, Kosovo will also recognize another state's Caricomit," said the communique.

Later, in press statements Pacolli clarified in today's Government meeting.

"About introducing misunderstood the statement of Deputy Behgjet Pacolli in meeting the Government for recognition by countries Caricomit (community of Caribbean states). Deputy Pacolli in his speech, informed the cabinet on notice that Caricomit countries will recognize the Republic of Kosovo, as states separately and not block, "said the communique.

"Misunderstanding has occurred with some media that I have quoted these words of residence as a retreat from Caricomit countries to recognize Kosovo as an independent and sovereign," said press.

Alternatively, Behgjet Pacolli Office warned in the morning that today will present next to the state recognition of Kosovo.

"A state of CARICOM'it countries has recognized Kosovo's independence. During the day, becomes public knowledge, "said Express Jetlir Zymberaj, Advisor to the Deputy Behgjet Pacolli.

He did not want to tell the state will recognize Kosovo's independence today.

"Everything will be known at a press conference," he said.

Denizlin24 (talk) 14:28, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There is some important stuff here about Caricom - we might need to amend the article. But without a source this is useless. Please tell us where this information came from. Bazonka (talk) 17:59, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Gabon will recognize Kosovo today or tomorrow. http://rtv21.tv/home/?p=28989

Denizlin24 (talk) 14:51, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Bazonka its not hard to find relevant information.By the way link is here

http://www.raporteri.com/pacolli-paralajmeron-edhe-nje-njohje-tjeter-per-kosoven/

Few easy steps to do: Type in google Behgjet Pacolli Perform search for today in google You will get lots of newspaper from Kosovo.Some also have google translate.Just click on that article in English, through google translate.And everything comes there for you.Reason im telling you this is.Since you are in charge of this page.That way you will know in advance if any news comes your way

By reading newspapers, you can find.Pacolli expects Gabon recognition today or tommorow.Togo will recognize next week.Pacolli thinks Nigeria will recognize next week.One Caricom country will recognize today or tommorow.So, expect one more Caricom recognition by the end of this week.And perhaps few more next week.No, news from Chad though.I was expecting to find some news from there

Denizlin24 (talk) 18:22, 25 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Sir, please stop spamming the discussion page with endless lines of indecipherable "articles". Please post relevant links and a short explanation of what they say, and then allow the editors here to draw their own conclusions. All recognitions are "unilateral" - that's one of the tenets of sovereignty, the right to take your own decisions. --alchaemia (talk) 18:25, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I think Denizlin24 misunderstands the word "unilateral". I think he meant "unanimously" or "as a unit", notice he says that "Pacolli has announced that CARICOM has withdrawn the decision for recognition as an organization....each country individually will decide whether to recognize." I am having some trouble understanding exactly what Denizlin24 means by some of these statements as he appears to have some problems expressing himself in English. --Khajidha (talk) 17:29, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

You sir are probably barrister.Since you speak in such terms.If you cant decipher what is obvious.I then suggest you buy some good glasses, and read the news.

Denizlin24 (talk) 18:33, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Spamming.Hardly.Why dont you do your job.And post recent developments.And i wont spam in here.Besides how can i spam, when im not writing anything on main board?
 * Denizlin24, I am flattered and amused that you think I'm "in charge of this page", but really that's not how Wikipedia works. I am fully capable of using Google to search for things, but even my skills have failed me this time - I cannot find the article where Pacolli talks about the misunderstanding with Caricom. The link that you posted above isn't it. Bazonka (talk) 06:44, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Five new recognitions expected in September (Koha Ditore) Koha Ditore reports that Deputy Prime Minister, Behgjet Pacolli, has stated that five African countries will recognize Kosovo during September. It is believed that four countries will make this decision in the beginning of the next month. Pacolli considered recognition from Nigeria to be the most significant one, and mentioned that the other four recognitions are expected to come from Mali, Chad, Togo and Gabon. Pacolli said that Gabon is expected to make the decision on Friday, the latest. Pacolli returned a day earlier from the visit to these countries, and reported the news to the Government meeting on Thursday. He also said that countries of Caricom would not recognize Kosovo as an organization, as it was announced before. “Now the countries are free to decide separately,” reported Pacolli

www.unmikonline.org/Headlines/Headlines%20-%2026.08.2011.doc

Denizlin24 (talk) 22:04, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Link and article.
 * We've known that about Caricom for a week. It seems that the members decided that they would all recognize, but each individual recognition will be made separately. See this section of this very talk page. --Khajidha (talk) 03:08, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Pakistan has practically recognized Kosovo?
In a statement the Foreign Ministry in Islamabat says: '''We understand and support the legitimate aspirations of the Kosovars and the need for peace in Kosovo and the region. ''' http://www.mofa.gov.pk/Press_Releases/2008/Feb/PR_033_08.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.78.79.158 (talk) 21:44, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Brilliant. That news is over 3 years old and is already in the article. Bazonka (talk) 22:02, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Out-dated and already included in the article as well as being from a former government. Pakistan may de facto recognise the independence of Kosovo (as may many countries) however this is just my (and your) interpretation; but there has been no official recognition. All that can be used in the article is already included. Thanks for your good faith suggestion but there is nothing we can add to the article which isn't already there. Regards IJA (talk) 00:18, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I found some information about the activities of Pacolli. If there is something interesting can refresh the page.
If there something interesting for these countries can refresh the page. Uganda - http://www.akr-ks.eu/articles/192, http://www.akr-ks.eu/articles/193 Ruanda - http://www.akr-ks.eu/articles/191 Côte d'Ivoire - http://www.akr-ks.eu/articles/190 Morocco - http://www.akr-ks.eu/articles/203 Nigeria - http://www.akr-ks.eu/articles/202,   http://www.akr-ks.eu/articles/201 , http://www.akr-ks.eu/articles/200 Ghana - http://www.akr-ks.eu/articles/197 Burundi - http://www.akr-ks.eu/articles/194 Irvi Hyka —Preceding undated comment added 12:57, 31 August 2011 (UTC).
 * Thanks, but there's not much of use here. I've added a few words about Morocco, but most of it is basically what Pacolli said - we need to know how the other countries reacted. Bazonka (talk) 18:25, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks Bazonka for add news from Morocco, but also it would be interesting information from (for example) 1. Burundi - Vice President of Burundi Republic of Burundi have carefully considered the possibility of recognizing Kosovo as an independent and sovereign. 2. Ghana - Minister for Foreign Affairs of Ghana Mr. Muhammad Mumuni has appreciated the efforts made by the representative of Kosovo to increase the number of recognitions for Kosovo and has promised to coordinate actions with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Uganda, Mr. Sam Kutesa to consider seriously, during the Summit of the African Union, the possibility of recognizing Kosovo's independence by these countries. 3. Ruanda - Prime Minister of Ruanda Mr. Bernard Makuza Ruanda could anticipate the recognition of Kosovo. 4. Côte d'Ivoire - President of Côte d'Ivoire Alassane Ouattara At the inauguration ceremony of new President Pacolli was invited as representatives of Kosovo and discuss the possibility that the new president of the country to recognize Pristina. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.78.79.158 (talk) 20:41, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, saying that you'll think about something doesn't really give us a lot of information. I'm not sure whether this should be included. Bazonka (talk) 14:28, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Honduras will lobby for Kosovo: President of Honduras, His Excellency Porfirio Lobo Sosa visit Kosovo
President of Honduras Porfirio Lobo Sosa during his state visit to the Republic of Kosovo promise for Kosovo recognition by other countries of Central America. . President of Honduras met with Kosovo President Atifete Jahjaga, Parliament Speaker Jakup Krasniqi and other officials of Kosovo. He arrived in Kosovo invited by the First Deputy Prime Minister of Kosovo Behgjet Pacolli. During the visit were present together with the President of Honduras the leaders of majority party of El Salvador, Guatemala and Nicaragua. Very soon these country can recognize Kosovo said Sosa. http://www.president-ksgov.net/?page=1,6,1936, http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=1,9,2310, http://www.botasot.info/def.php?category=3&id=134925 Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 19:05, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Nothing of use here - we only have the word of the Hondurans that other countries might recognise soon. Something to keep an eye on though. Bazonka (talk) 14:09, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

News from Greece
Greece, is in favor of Kosovo's membership in EBRD European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. Greece "not only supports Kosovo's membership in EBRD, but also is lobbying other countries for the same thing." said an official of Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Kosovo) for on this issue Greek Minister of Foreign Affairs Stavros Lambrinidis will visit Kosovo next week. http://www.zeri.info/artikulli/2/8/33298/greqia-pro-anetaresimit-te-kosoves-ne-berzh/ Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 14:39, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

First Deputy Prime Minister of the Republic of Kosovo Behgjet Pacolli says in the next week 3 African countries will recognize Kosovo
Behgjet Pacolli has given new promises for recognition of independence. He announced that this week will return to Africa and there will provide three recognition. "In the next week will travel to Africa, where he will finish the work started in three states and I am convinced that next week will recognize Kosovo," said Pacolli. http://www.gazetaexpress.com/?cid=1,13,62114, http://www.botasot.info/def.php?category=3&id=135102, http://www.gazetalajm.info/politike/12550-Pacolli-premton-tri-njohje-reja.html. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 14:4, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Which countries? These articles are utterly useless because they give us no information that we can use. I appreciate that you are trying to be helpful, but please do not post links like these in the future. We need hard facts, not vague speculation. Bazonka (talk) 17:02, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Pacolli probably refers to Gabon, Nigeria, Mali, Togo and Uganda who promised Pacolli that will recognize Kosovo quickly. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 22:42, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You're just guessing. Please back this up with a reliable source. Bazonka (talk) 21:22, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Egypt says it will not recognize Kosovo
From Blic, but with quotes from the Egyptian FM saying that Egypt's position on Kosovo "will remain constant" - Canadian Bobby (talk) 19:35, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice find. I've added a sentence. Bazonka (talk) 20:08, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Palestine supports Kosovo independence
Palestinian Ambassador to the UN: Palestine supports Kosova's independence http://www.koha.net/index.php?page=1%2C13%2C58299 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.78.79.158 (talk) 21:58, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I have added a few words to the article. Bazonka (talk) 20:15, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * At the celebration of the 50th anniversary of the Non-Alligned movement on September 6, 2011 in Belgrade, Ryan Mansour, the Palestinian observer at the UN, asserted that the issue of Palestine was "typical foreign occupation which cannot be compared to the issue of Kosovo", adding that, according to the international law and the UN, the occupation can only be temporary, and that it is time for it to end by a mutually workable solution. Source: http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2011&mm=09&dd=06&nav_id=76268 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beogradjanin011 (talk • contribs) 23:06, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Recognition of Pacolli
Can open a separate voice for lobbying activity of former President of the Republic of Kosovo,signatories of 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence and 1st Deputy Prime Minister of Kosovo Behgjet Pacolli. Pacolli has brought this recognition for Kosovo. According New Kosovo Alliance Party:
 * 1) Liberia
 * 2) Maldives
 * 3) Palau
 * 4) Gambia
 * 5) Dominican Republic
 * 6) Swaziland
 * 7) Vanuatu
 * 8) Honduras
 * 9) Kiribati
 * 10) Tuvalu
 * 11) Guinea-Bissau
 * 12) Central African Republic
 * 13) Guinea
 * 14) Niger
 * 15) Benin
 * 16) Saint Lucia disputed with Enver Hoxhaj — Preceding unsigned comment added by Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 21:23, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
 * What is this? Why did you post it here? Are you in love with Pacolli? Remember that this talk page is not a forum. Bazonka (talk) 21:47, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
 * No, I am with Vetëvendosje! but this news is according New Kosovo Alliance Party.. I simply brought a detail. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 22:16, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Please only post things that can be used in the article. Bazonka (talk) 22:28, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

It can be mentioned in the article that recognitions by those countries came as a result of his lobbying. I think also Malta and Portugal recognitions came after his lobbying.--Avala (talk) 14:54, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you are giving the man too much credit. Just because recognition came after he had been there, doesn't mean that the recognitions are due to his lobbying. It is quite likely that some (maybe all) of these countries would have recognized regardless. --Khajidha (talk) 16:00, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

For a second there, I thought it was written that "Pacolli has bought this recognition for Kosovo". Then I went back and re-read it. Lucky. Imagine that! I couldn't imagine there being anything untoward going on in relation to corrupt practices getting Kosovo independence recognition. Russia, apparently, does it, so is it any wonder that the world's richest Albanian is the one responsible for some of the most "hard" lobbying out there; particular with countries which figure very poorly on numerous corruption indices. Perhaps some of this, sourced of course (Google will help for more), could be added to the article. --Russavia Let's dialogue 21:30, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Hungarians of Romania, lobby for recognition of Kosovo
European Parliament member and deputy chairman of the EP, from the hungarian community in Romania, Laszlo Land, has asked recognition of Kosovo by Romania. http://www.zeri.info/artikulli/1/1/33607/hungarezet-e-rumanise-lobojne-per-njohjen-e-kosoves/ Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 21:28, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * This does not tell us the position of the Romanian government. Bazonka (talk) 21:39, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

UNSC non-permanent members
Is this really a relevant note? The non-permanent membership changes all the time and can include some countries that are rather less influential. Was Burkina Faso really any more influential on the world stage when it was a member? Is Germany more influential now as a UNSC non-permanent member than it was a few years ago when it was "just" a member of NATO and the EU? The permanent members have a potential -influence on Kosovo's future that the non-permanent members don't: any one of them can prevent Kosovo from joining the UN. Permanent Security Council membership is thus worth noting, non-permanent isn't. --Khajidha (talk) 19:01, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * No probably not. Also, removing it would make maintenance of the page easier and less likely to error in the future. Bazonka (talk) 19:23, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * That's an even better point that I didn't think of. Does anyone else want to weigh in on this or should we just dump these UNSC non-permanent member references? --Khajidha (talk) 19:43, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * As you haven't removed the info yet, let me say that for the UNSC to pass a resolution, it needs 9 out of 15 votes in favour, not just the permanent five. Sure, the five may veto at any time, but to pass a resolution, you need the elected members as well. Therefore it is relevant, and if you are still thinking on removing it, I hope you would reconsider. --... there's more than what can be linked. 13:18, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * But there are 10 different non-permanent members at any one time. Only 4 of which would need to agree for a resolution to pass (assuming all of the permanent members vote for it). Combine this with the fact that the memberships are non-permanent and it still seems that the non-permanent membership is of little relevance to Kosovo at most times. If a resolution is proposed at some time then the non-permanent members at that time are relevant, but while no resolution is being considered they aren't. --Khajidha (talk) 14:00, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * As we have no way of knowing when a resolution may be made, we need to assume that the elected members are relevant at all times. And besides, a term on the Council lasts two whole years, not all that ephemeral in the scope of the Kosovo issue. Also, the membership data needs to be updated only once a year. --... there's more than what can be linked. 18:23, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Bumping this for more input. --Khajidha (talk) 20:17, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Vatican will recognize Kosovo
Juliusz Januzs, apostolic delegate to Vatican Republic of Kosovo, which is also the Apostolic Nuncio to Slovenia, said that the Vatican is in the process of recognizing Kosovo. http://www.kohaditore.com/?page=1,13,68220 http://www.zeri.info/artikulli/1/1/33387/vatikani-pritat-ta-njohe-se-shpejti-kosoven/ http://www.gazetaexpress.com/?cid=1,13,62110 http://www.botasot.info/def.php?category=3&id=135064 Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 22:44, 4 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Official from MFA

http://www.mfa-ks.net/?page=1,4,931 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.117.0.63 (talk) 14:17, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks - I've added a sentence to the article. Bazonka (talk) 16:52, 5 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Father Federico Lombardi - Director of the Holy See Press Office

"The Vatican does not recognize the unilateral proclamation of independence made by ethnic Albanians in Kosovo in early 2008. There is no change in the attitude of the Holy See toward Kosovo, the director of the Vatican press service Father Federico Lombardi said in a telephone statement for Tanjug." Source: http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2011&mm=09&dd=05&nav_id=76253 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beogradjanin011 (talk • contribs) 23:00, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That's already in the article... Bazonka (talk) 06:08, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

First Deputy Prime Minister of Kosovo Pacolli has started the fourth lobbying in Africa
  Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 12:57, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Pacolli will meet for the first time with President of South Africa Zuma. It is the first time that South Africa agree to discuss the Kosovo issue.
 * Pacolli will meet with the new president of Côte d'Ivoire.
 * Pacolli has confirmed the meeting with Minister of Foreign Affairs of Nigeria. where he hopes to be given the verbal note of recognition of Kosovo. Other state included in the agenda of Pacolli are: Namibia, Angola, Mozambique, Tanzania, Zambia and Zimbabwe.
 * President of Benin Yayi Boni, country which has recognized Kosovo, has requested a official visit of Pacolli to discuss cooperation between the two countries.
 * Nothing we can use here. We need to know what those countries' positions are, not that someone might talk to them. Bazonka (talk) 21:11, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Office of the President of Guinea-Bissau confirms the recognition of Kosovo
According to Deputy Foreign Minister of Kosovo Petrit Selimi and Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Kosovo) published by Kosova Press and Gazeta Express. Office of the President of Guinea-Bissau confirms the recognition of Kosovo. The deputy minister of Foreign Affairs, Petrit Selimi told Kosovapress that the reports of several media that two countries have withdrawn recognitions are Serbia’s lies. He explained for public opinion that today the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) contacted the authorities of Guinea Bissau, which confirmed that it has not changed its stance with regard to Kosova’s recognition. said that under the strategy of the Republic of Kosovo approved this year, is a list compiled in cooperation with the U.S. and UK, where 30 to 40 countries that are declared in a positive way to the recognition of Kosovo. english  Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 14:22, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The recognition withdrawal story has only been reported by Serbian media and the Kosovan Foreign Affairs Ministry has denied all allegations. None of the regional media(Balkan Insight etc.) have reported anything about these events, although the recognition by Oman was covered. That being said the Serbian newspapers claim that these two countries withdraw their recognitions, but in the articles themselves they claim that the representative of Oman said to Vuk Jeremic (according to Jeremic himself) that Oman never recognized Kosovo. Apparently it was article for internal consumption as now Jeremic claims that those countries are not Oman and Guinea-Bisau but two unknown ones that will (according to Jeremic) withdraw their recognitions.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:33, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Foreign minister of Serbia Vuk Jeremic confirms that Oman and Guinea bissau did not recognised Kosovo
Foreign minister of Serbia Vuk Jeremic confirms that Oman and Guinea bissau did not recognised Kosovo,he was given a note about that by Foreign minister of Oman and verbal assurance of Foreign minister of Guinea-Bissau article in Serbian Translation. Two more African countries are expexted to withdraw its recognitions.

For now neither Kosovo or Serbia MFA did not provide any valid proof for recognition or withdrawal of recognition.So for time being recognition of Oman and Guinea-Bissau are at least murky because all the sources we have are newspaper articles and statements from ministers and i do not believe politicians at all.So this murkyness will stay murky until Kosovo MFA provide valid proof of recognition or Serbia MFA provide contrary arguments.As i understood Guinea-Bissau recognition is verbally given and that do not mean anything its hear-say.You have to remember recognition by Papua New Guinea which was never officialy confirmed.We will see what day brings.

Foreign minister of KOSOVO says that Oman DID NOT recognise Kosovo but they wished that Kosovo enters UN. article in serbian  translation.

part from article translated "Oman has never recognized Kosovo, as explained in February, the then Acting Minister of duty Vljora legible. They sent us a heartfelt letter in which we wished to UN membership. Guinea-Bissau has sent a clear diplomatic note on the grant and has since maintained contacts Kosovo, "Selimi said the Pristina media.89.216.214.217 (talk) 14:37, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Kosovo)
Foreign Ministry explains that the two countries formally recognized Kosovo. There no change position. http://www.mfa-ks.net/?page=1,4,936 Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 16:29, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * THIS IS ENGLISH SPEAKING WIKIPEDIA PLEASE PROVIDE ARTICLES ON ENGLISH OR AT LEAST TRANSLATION The MFA in article says about Oman "We recognize the position of the International Court of Justice in Kosovo's independence and government The Sultanate of Oman welcomes the accession of the Republic of Kosovo to the United Nations and other organizations that Kosovo wants to participate ". Oman DO NOT SAY anything about recognition. Translated  89.216.214.217 (talk) 14:36, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It is quite acceptable to post untranslated foreign language articles here. Readers are perfectly capable of using Google Translate themselves. Bazonka (talk) 17:48, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Oman has established diplomatic relations with Kosovo. If this is not called recognition, Jeremic should open the books of diplomacy. Very funny!!! Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 16:41, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * In link that you provided Foreign Minister of Kosovo says that Oman DID NOT recoghnise kosovo...dispute is about withdrawal not recognition OMAN DID NOT RECOGNISE Rebublic of Kosovo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.216.214.217 (talk) 14:45, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Oman stated it doesn't explicitly recognize countries, but rather establishes diplomatic relations with them. Since they established diplomatic relations, they implied their recognition. 14:52, 8 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.104.97.211 (talk)

This issue is resolved. 89.216.214.217 is in Serbia and is acting solely as a provocateur. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 17:48, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * So i ma from Serbia and i am provocateur...i can tell the same thing for you...can you explain what is provocation in my talk...or you are overwhelmed with arguments and facts 89.216.214.217 (talk) 19:16, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Koha Ditore article
What does this article say http://koha.net/?page=1,13,68654 ? --Avala (talk) 17:15, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The link doesn't work for me. Bazonka (talk) 19:06, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Me either. --Khajidha (talk) 19:54, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It's working now. It shows the letter of recognition from Guinea-Bissau. Bazonka (talk) 20:56, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I can see an image myself, thank you. I am asking about the text, Google Translate suggests it is quite detailed analysis but I can't figure out what exactly does it say ie. someone who is fluent in Albanian will have to translate.--Avala (talk) 22:07, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Delete Oman and Guinea Bisao from the list
Oman and Guinea Bissau have withdrawn their decisions to recognize Kosovo’s independence http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2011&mm=09&dd=08&nav_id=76291
 * There is more evidence showing that this is not true than that it is. Bazonka (talk) 21:03, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I have removed Oman and Guinea-Bissau from the "definite" list, and have added them to a disputed section. I am doing so based upon the same thing that occurred when Georgia put info out there that Vanuatu hadn't recognised. It isn't good for overall article NPOV when recognition that is obviously being disputed is being allowed to stand, ostensibly based upon editors own POV. --Russavia Let's dialogue 08:13, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Additionally, it is NOT our edict to be deciding who recognises who, but rather to describe who recognises who. The article was thus far deciding, rather than describing the dispute over the recognition of these two countries. The article needs to reflect these disputes, not decide them. --Russavia Let's dialogue 08:21, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Official statements of recognitions by governments
Can someone provide a link of methods and statement of recognition of Oman and Guinea-Bissau? And neither Kosovo's MFA statement says anything about recognition or diplomatic relations.This is statement of Oman "We recognize the position of the International Court of Justice in Kosovo's independence and government The Sultanate of Oman welcomes the accession of the Republic of Kosovo to the United Nations and other organizations that Kosovo wants to participate". Its greeting card not recognition or establishment of diplomatic relations. It is not said explicitly like in other recognitions like Italy, Australia , Switzerland or even Maldives Can anyone provide undisputable paper of recognition by Oman and Guinea-Bissau like those of Italy,Switzerland,Australia or Maldives? 89.216.214.217 (talk) 15:08, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

http://koha.net/repository/images/08-genjeshtrat_0809111645_1.jpg letter of Guine-bisau which regonize Kosovo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.114.94.241 (talk) 16:49, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * This is dead link http://koha.net/repository/images/08-genjeshtrat_0809111645_1.jpg


 * Found this: . It's not the actual letter, but it does state that Oman asked to open diplomatic relations. Oman doesn't issue recognitions, it just establishes diplomatic relations. --Khajidha (talk) 17:33, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * A government would not even contemplate establishing diplomatic relations with an entity that it did not recognise, whether that recognition were explicitly made or not. This whole story is a dead duck. Bazonka (talk) 17:47, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * what story is dead duck? I am simply asking can Kosovo MFA provide note on recognition like those i mentioned above or it cant because they did not recognise them? My point is note that they shoved us does not carry any words of recognition of establishment of diplomatic relations,they are only WISHING for Kosovo to enter UN and nothing else,there are not a SINGLE word about things we are talking about. Show us original letter of Governments of Oman and Guine-Bissau on Oman's and Guinea-Bissau recognition not a article on internet. PROVOCATEUR FROM SERBIA 89.216.214.217 (talk) 19:20, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * If we cannot find copies of the official letters, it doesn't mean that they never existed. Not everything is on the internet. Bazonka (talk) 19:32, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2011&mm=09&dd=08&nav_id=76304: "However, he explained that those were not Oman and Guinea-Bissau, as reported by some media, because those two countries had not recognized Kosovo in the first place." "He noted he spoke to Oman representatives during the recent NAM conference in Belgrade and that they assured him Oman had not recognized Kosovo. "The Foreign Ministry also has a letter from Oman informing us that their view on Kosovo has not changed," said Jeremić.  He also added that the Guinea-Bissau's foreign minister had told him his country had not initiated the procedure to recognize Kosovo." ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.97.239.81 (talk) 19:35, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * No such note exists for Oman because (as has been stated multiple times now) OMAN DOES NOT ISSUE NOTES OF RECOGNITION. Oman simply opens diplomatic relations and appoints ambassadors. An Omani ambassador to Kosovo HAS BEEN APPOINTED, meaning that they have diplomatic relations with Kosovo, meaning that they recognize the Republic of Kosovo as an independent state. --Khajidha (talk) 19:41, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Here's the argument from the other side. I think we have to take both positions with a pinch of salt. http://www.telegrafi.com/?id=2&a=16893 Bazonka (talk) 19:43, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Since the first time I read the article it was apparent to me that its intent was internal consumption. Vuk Jeremic claimed that Oman and GB would withdraw their recognitions and two hours later he denied his earlier allegations and claimed that two other states would withdraw the recognitions in the future. That being said such articles are frequent(Glas Serbije reporting that the Czech Republic would possibly withdraw its recognition in 2009) in the Serbian media industry and elections will be held in 2012. -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:41, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Be very careful Canadian Bobby. Your accusation above of Jeremic lying is both a WP:BLP violation, and is also quite possibly slander. You have no idea what has or has not been said behind the scenes, but it does seem blic.rs is a reliable source. We can attribute them in articles, however, we can't attribute you. Be careful accusing BLP's on talk pages of things which there is no evidence of. --Russavia Let's dialogue 02:33, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I withdraw and apologize. I am told that Oman will make an official statement today or Monday. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 17:49, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

President of Guinea-Bissau reaffirms the recognition of Kosovo
Vice / PM Behgjet Pacolli, who is on a lobbying tour to Africa, on Thursday had a telephone conversation with President of the Republic of Guinea-Bissau, Malam Bacai Sanhe, which has reaffirmed that the institutions of this country has recognition of Kosovo's independence. During the talks held with President of Sanhe, Pacolli has received assurances of unreserved support for the institutions of Kosovo from the Republic of Guinea Bissau, reports the Information Office of the Vice / prime. Sanhe, has reaffirmed the right of the people of Kosovo for freedom, independence and sovereignty, noting that this right has confirmed by the International Court of Justice. [] Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 22:59, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Anyone find it odd that a country which has Portuguese as it's official language, has such a letter written in French? Regardless of the historical usage of French in diplomacy, one would still expect such a letter to be written in the constitutional official language of a nation. Also, Irvi Hyka, unless you are President Sanna, you can't hold copyright over the letter, please change the licencing to a valid licence, otherwise it can be deleted from Commons. --Russavia Let's dialogue 02:29, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not unusual to have a note in French. As you point out, it's still a major language in diplomacy - one of the two working languages of the UN.  If you're trying to build traction for a 'the note's a forgery because it's in French' conspiracy theory, I don't think it will get very far.  Guinea-Bissau's neighbors, Guinea and Senegal have French as an official language, so it's hardly surprising there would be staffers in Bissau's foreign ministry that know French well. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 02:35, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Woah who said anything about conspiracy theories? It is quite odd, that a country which has Portuguese as its official language, regardless of whether it is a member of Francophonie or not, would write such a letter in French. --Russavia Let's dialogue 02:56, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Its oddness doesn't mean that it isn't true. Portuguese is less likely to be understood by the recipient, so an alternative language is used. You'd normally expect this to be English but perhaps the writer was more proficient in French. Bazonka (talk) 06:16, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not even odd, since French is still one of the two pre-eminent diplomatic languages. Frequently, letters, speeches to diplomatic corps a.s.o. are written/are held in French. E.g. the Pope's annual address to members of the diplomatic corps accredited to the Holy See is in French (neither Italian nor English nor Latin). Gugganij (talk) 08:52, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * By the rationale Russavia is employing here, Norway did not recognize Kosovo since they sent a letter in English, not Norwegian. --alchaemia (talk) 09:15, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * To be fair, Russavia doesn't question the validity of the note verbale, but its authenticity. Gugganij (talk) 09:26, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, I'm not questioning anything, except for one thing. I am not questioning it's authenticity or its validity. I simply said it is odd that it is written in French, not Portuguese. Now to the one thing that I am questioning! Unless Irvi Hyka is the President of Guinea-Bissau, he is not the copyright holder of the letter, and hence can't release it under a free licence. Unless a valid licence is added to the file, it will be deleted from Commons in a week. That's all there is to it. --Russavia Let's dialogue 09:38, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry to have misstated you. Gugganij (talk) 12:09, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Russavia just added more sections. Disputed recognitions by whom? Serbia? My minister, my government or my politcians? Some say 100 recognized, some are saying 91. Please, remove disputed. There is no consensus on this one. ProudSerb84 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Proudserb84 (talk • contribs) 08:29, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

New Zealand = Oman situation
In the verbal note sent by the Government of New Zealand reportedly did not use the term "recognize Kosovo" but establishing diplomatic relations. Many countries in the world do not recognize the term "recognition" but the "establish diplomatic relations". This does not mean that New Zeladna not recognize Kosovo. Note verbale can see here http://www.mfa-ks.net/?page=2,4,324 Republic of Kosovo, on January 30, 2011 has taken note verbale from the Sultanate of Oman, no. Reference 7102/700710/181/2011 and signed by His Majesty Sultan Qaboos bin Said sent former President of the Republic of Kosovo, Fatmir Sejdiu asking him to establish diplomatic relations. Muhamet Hamiti non-resident Ambassador to Oman (London). Under the Constitution of Oman His Majesty Sultan Qaboos bin Said has full power to do so. Sultan is the only authority in Oman. In the letter sent by the Sultan of Oman Kosovo refers to the name Republic of Kosovo. Another undeniable fact that Oman has recognized Kosovo. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 23:29, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Gazeta Express is suggesting that the number of recognisers should be 80 because Oman never officially recognised. http://www.gazetaexpress.com/?cid=1,13,62418 (The Google translation isn't wonderful, so perhaps an Albanian speaker can clarify.) But because Oman (like NZ) never offically recognises anywhere, I suggest that we leave the list as it is. We may want to reword the introduction though, which refers to "82 formal diplomatic recognitions" (this number includes Taiwan). I guess Oman and NZ were not formal recognitions. Bazonka (talk) 07:09, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that we need to reword the introduction; I propose "Kosovo has received formal recognitions from, or has established diplomatic relations with, XY number of UN Member States". --alchaemia (talk) 09:14, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * No, we don't need to reword the introduction, since establishing diplomatic relations is a diplomatic recognition of the entities involved. It is just a different mode not a different thing. Gugganij (talk) 09:22, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I understand, but was just trying to suggest that we expand the definition of "recognition" as an act that can be done in at least two possible ways. Though I agree that dip. relations with Oman = recognition. --alchaemia (talk) 10:17, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we should just remove the word "formal". Bazonka (talk) 10:30, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Sultanate of Oman recognition. Kosovar media report that due to a misunderstanding the Verbal Note sent by the Sultanate of Oman was interpreted as a recognition. The Kosovo Thanks You team is awaiting official confirmation by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs before making any amends to the web site. It is important to note that the Sultanate of Oman did not revoke or break diplomatic relations with Kosovo. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 12:50, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

You cannot have diplomatic relations with a state that you do not recognize. You're mixing apples and oranges - establishing diplomatic relations is also simultaneously extending recognition. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 11:51, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Resolving the situation in consensual manner
Kosovo is recognized by 81 UN states. Guinea-Bissau reconfirm. Oman is misunderstood and can be left off the list at the moment. Gabon officially recognized Kosovo Pacolli reports. Until the moment of arrival in Pristina the note verbale should wait. This would be the best solution for me. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 11:48, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Can we have sources from Guinea Bissau and Gabon, because this seems pretty suspicious = The Truth = (talk) 10:05, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The Guinea-Bissau source is already given in this talk page. Just scroll up until you see the document... Bazonka (talk) 10:55, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Suspicious? There are lots of countries we don't have direct sources from - San Marino and Monaco come to mind, Liberia, Belize, etc. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 11:45, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Gabon is the 83rd country recognizing Kosovo including Taiwan. The MFA and Oman's UN rep confirm recognition. We should stick to official statements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.117.0.63 (talk) 11:02, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

@talk: Oman is misunderstood and can be left off the list at the moment. - Oman has to be removed from the list, if, and only if, they did not establish diplomatic relations. The note verbale congratulating Kosov blablabla is pretty irrelevant. Establishment of diplomatic relations constitutes diplomatic recognition. Gugganij (talk) 12:06, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Pacolli promises a clean verbal note of Oman comes next week. Oman has established diplomatic relations with Kosovo. But the verbal note, which will clearly express that Oman has recognized Kosovo comes next week. Pacolli has contacts with the office of the Sultan. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 14:165, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

WikiLeaks: Vatican 'de facto' has recognized Kosovo
The problem that the Vatican have is the question of abortion in the Constitution of Kosovo. http://www.kohaditore.com/?page=1,13,68689, http://www.gazetaexpress.com/?cid=1,13,62448, http://www.indeksonline.net/?page=1,2,7750 Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 13:19, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that we can use this information. This is the US opinion of the Vatican's position, not actually the Vatican's position. Having said that, it would be useful to see the actual Wikileaks document (it doesn't seem to be working at present), rather than a poorly-translated news article. PS Please don't post the same article multiple times. Bazonka (talk) 16:56, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe this is the cable he's talking about. --alchaemia (talk) 21:06, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've added a few words to the article. Bazonka (talk) 22:26, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Erroneous intro and image
The introduction states that 82 countries and 81 UN Member States recognize Kosovo - however, this is wrong. Oman and Guinea Bissau have never ever recognized Kosovo's independence; the announced procedure was stopped.

The map should also be updated. Therefore, it should be 79 UN Member States and 80 countries! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.110.244.156 (talk) 12:27, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Please don't create new sections when this topic is already covered (multiple times) above. Also, you are wrong based on all of the sources presented so far Bernerd (talk) 12:35, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Gabon is number 82
See here: http://kosovothanksyou.com/ and thanks to Gabon. --Schwarzschachtel (talk) 14:03, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Not new news... please see above. Bazonka (talk) 16:04, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Disputed recognitions section added w/o consesus
Again, this is another violation of Wikipedia rules. We cannot change this because of our judgment or hate or option, but because of facts. A Serb politician is stating that 100 countries have recognized Kosovo. Another one is saying 91 countries have recognized Kosovo. Please remove sections that are not approved and reached consensus. CCCC 08:25, 10 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Proudserb84 (talk • contribs)


 * I agree that there was no consensus. The governments of Oman and Guinea-Bissau have not denied that they did extend recognition and there has been no official statement saying they've withdrawn recognition.  The Kosovo MFA has denied the story - and they would know.  The news is not on the Government of Serbia's website or on the MFA's website, so it's not officially asserted by the Serbian government.  It's only in the private media.  Thus, we have no reason to take them off the list or to say that they're disputed.  We cannot and must not allow this page to devolve into a situation in which Serbian media is given a veto on what can be put on the page.  This has gone way too far and is not in keeping with our usual practice.  In the past, even if Jeremic had said a country had withdrawn recognition, we would have waited for confirmation from that country.  That has not happened in this case.  They've had 72 hours to put out a statement affirming Jeremic's statement and/or denying they ever recognized Kosovo and they have not done so.  Thus, we have no basis on which to say it is disputed.  Disagreement between editors on this page is no basis for saying it's disputed.  In the absence of definitive evidence that anything has changed, please leave the page alone.  If this evidence appears, we can act then. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 08:49, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Please read above. We do not decided disputes on WP as to the recognition of. We DESCRIBE disputes. Simply placing these two in a section with "definite" recognition, when there is clearly dispute as to whether they have or haven't recognised, is to engage in DECIDING recognition, rather than describing it. The Kosova MFA is not the be all and end all of information here, there is clearly disputed information here, and our job as editors is to describe it, not whitewash it. --Russavia Let's dialogue 09:10, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, but using this logic, if a Serbian politician says, "Well, France never really recognized," we'd have to put France in the disputed section. Our job, you say, is to describe disputes and one would exist then.  Not that he would, but what if Jeremic says, "No country has recognized Kosovo"?  Do they all become disputed?  I am not trying to whitewash anything - I want the page to be accurate, as I'm sure everyone does.  I see no cause for changing anything.  One politician making an assertion does not create a reason to change the page.  If the countries put out statements denying the statements made, do they stay in the disputed section if the original statement by the politician/minister is not also retracted?  These recognitions were not contested for 9 months and now suddenly they're surrounded by doubt?  That is highly illogical.  They would've denied it when it was first reported if it weren't true.  The Serbian government would've prodded them to say it wasn't true, just as Kosovo is prodding them to do the same now for the opposite reason.  - Canadian Bobby (talk) 09:24, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


 * What you are suggesting is that we DECIDE recognition, not DESCRIBE it. Where on the article can one explain the obviously visible POV that recognition by OMA and GSB either did not take place or is invalid? You will note that when Georgia put out word that Vanuatu didn't recognise Abkhazia, even though the note verbale was already released into the public domain, it took about a week and bit for Vanuatu to speak up on the matter, even though the dispute was being driven by Georgian politicians. We need to describe these disputes, not decide them. --Russavia Let's dialogue 09:31, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Weighing evidence is not deciding. It's going with reality.  Again, using this logic, I could go over to the Abkhazia page and assert that none of the recognitions took place and thus it would be disputed.  I understand that the Vanuatu story was a mess, but this is a different page with a different set of editors for the most part.  It's not something most of the people here are familiar with.  There is no dispute over Oman and Guinea-Bissau, anyway.  The Serbian government has not officially asserted anything.  There is a quote from the FM in a media article and that constitutes the evidence for a dispute.  As I said before, what's to stop a politician from saying that the sun is really a ball of candle wax?  If he says it, do we have to go change the sun article to say its composition is a matter of dispute? - Canadian Bobby (talk) 09:37, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Russiavia, I appreciate your assistance, but the description you made is not accurate. It's an opinion. Not a fact. My countrymen are not confirming anything but my country media. Today, one Serbian opposition politician said 100 countries recognized Kosovo. One media said 91 recognized so far. And there are the media we are quoting here. Let's not add sections on this. ProudSerb84 09:20, 10 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Proudserb84 (talk • contribs)
 * What needs to be added to the sections is information as has been put out in the media, to provide the other POV on whether recognition took place or not. There are more than enough sources out there for it. Our job as editors is not to promote one opinion over another opinion. There is clearly disputed re-actions here, and it is those reactions which need to be described in the article. --Russavia Let's dialogue 09:31, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

There is one article that was reported by others and quoted by others. I will take this with arbitration. This section has been added without consensus. Clear violation of Wikipedia rules. ProudSerb84 05:36, 11 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Proudserb84 (talk • contribs)


 * I agree that the section should not have been added, but this is not a violation of Wikipedia rules. It is part of the WP:BRD process. I could similarly claim that you are violating Wikipedia rules by not properly signing your posts... Bazonka (talk) 13:07, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Liberal Democratic Party of Serbia requires the recognition of Kosovo
Former Deputy Prime Minister of Serbia Čedomir Jovanović and president of the Liberal Democratic Party has asked by the government to recognize Kosovo and normalize relations with Albanians in Kosovo. Liberal Democratic Party have 12 seats in the Serbian Parliament. Other party which are expressed for the recognition of Kosovo in Serbia: Leader of Serbian Renewal Movement Mr. Vuk Drašković ( former Deputy Prime Minister of Yugoslavia and former Minister of Foreign Affairs of Serbia) 4 seats, Alliance of Vojvodina Hungarians 4 seats, Party of Democratic Action of Sandžak 1 seats, Bosniak Democratic Party of Sandžak 1 seats, Party for Democratic Action ethnic Albanians in Southern Serbia 1 seats and with dozens of other MPs have requested recognition of Kosovo. ,   Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 14:57, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * In August 2010, Vuk Drašković argued in favour of changing the Serbian Constitution of 2006 to remove references to Kosovo as a part of Serbia because according to him “Serbia has no national sovereignty over Kosovo whatsoever. All of Serbia knows that Kosovo is not really a province within Serbia, that it is completely beyond the control of the government and the state of Serbia”.Serbian Ex-Foreign Minister Calls For Expunging Kosovo From Constitution, ''Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, August 7, 2010 Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 15:04, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Can someone clarify Egypt's stance?
According to the references posted, Egypt (even under the new government) still doesn't want to recognize the state but its reference is to a (slav?) website and I can't find where they got their news from. Can someone find where the new Egypt government said that they will still not support this declaration? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deluxx00 (talk • contribs) 19:35, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

New news for International recognition of Kosovo

 * 1) Nigeria has recognized Kosovo.
 * 2) South Africa: South African President Jacob Zuma has promised that South Africa will recognize Kosovo.
 * 3) Egypt could soon recognize Kosovo. The strongest candidate for presidential elections Amr Moussa at a meeting in Cairo with Foreign Minister Hoxhaj has promised immediate recognition. Sheikh Ali Goma'a Grand Mufti of Egypt has promised to lobby for Kosovo's recognition by his country.
 * 4) Arab League In a meeting with Secretary General of Arab League, dr. Nabil el-Araby, Minister Hoxhaj ensure that 12 members of this organization states that have not recognized Kosovo, will do in a very short time. Arab League Secretary, dr. Nabil el-Araby said that Egypt and other countries of the Arab League have not any reason to not recognize Kosovo's independence. "Tomorrow I will meet all the ministers of Foreign Affairs of 22 member states, will inform the meeting that we had and will propound your request for recognition" said Al Araby.  Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 22:59, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Egyptian opposition supports Kosovo's independence. But not the interim government. I am using Google translator and says nothing about any Egyptian government officials supporting Kosovo's independence. We need to stick to official sources. ProudSerb84 00:07, 13 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Proudserb84 (talk • contribs)
 * Egypt has not a political government now, Egyptian presidential election, 2011 will be crucial for this issue. According to Polling Amr Moussa is potential candidate for president and he will recognize Kosovo. Sheikh Ali Goma'a Grand Mufti of Egypt supports Kosovo. He has more influence in Egypt. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 3:27, 13 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Serbia reportedly expelling Gabon and Nigeria diplomatic officials accredited in Belgrade.Proudserb84 04:19, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Serbia opposition and ruling party officials's reaction to Kosovo's independence
We need a consensus to add the section of Serbia opposition which has largely said a lot of things about recognizing Kosovo's independence. That also includes the senior officials of ruling party, DS that acknowledge that Kosovo and Metohija is independent. ProudSerb84 00:02, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

A need to split the list
Regarding recent headlines, it would probably be a good idea to split the list into two parts

The first where the government of that state has comfirmed recognition, and documents/videos of that are avalible (USA, Britain, France)

The second where the claims of recognition come only from the Albanian side, and cannot be verified (Gabon, Andorra, ect), disputed recogntions (Guinea Bissau) and ones where the notices stated a wish to form diplomatic relations, but did not explicitly mention recognition (New Zealand for example). — Preceding unsigned comment added by CradleofTruth (talk • contribs) 21:40, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Andorra Ràdio i Televisió d'Andorra recognition establishing diplomatic relations . New Zeland (Kosovo unilaterally declared its independence from Serbia on 17 February 2008.  Kosovo’s first Ambassador to NewZealand (resident in London) presented his Credentials to the Governor General in February 2010.) Ministry of Foreign Affairs of New Zealand visit this link [] For New Zealand to establish relations diploamtic equals recognition. New Zealand uses the term Republic of Kosovo in their MFA page. The President of Guinea Bissau has reaffirmed recognition, note verbale Guinea Bissau is published here. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 00:40, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

First of all, please do not open new topics whenever some tabloid "disputes" something; this is not a forum. We have one list, and that list includes all the states that have recognized Kosovo diplomatically. How they've done that (whether through a letter, or establishment of dip. relations) is irrelevant, we do not decide how a particular state decides to extent diplomatic recognition, and do not split those recognitions based on some unknown criteria that some person, who can't even sign their name properly, made up. --alchaemia (talk) 00:02, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

No establishing Diplomatic relations does not mean recognition, New Zealand has done the same with Taiwan, but not recognised, like I affirmed previously, there is a need to split the list. Claims from the Kosovo Albanian leadership that Guinea Bissau's president reaffirmed recognition cannot be considered so unless Guinea Bissau's own ministries report it, the same with Gabon — Preceding unsigned comment added by CradleofTruth (talk • contribs) 09:23, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, diplomatic relations does mean recognition. It always has. And your example of NZ/Taiwan is flawed because New Zealand does not have diplomatic relations with Taiwan (actually the Republic of China), it has a "Commerce and Industry Office" there. New Zealand has stated in the past that they do not make official recognitions, they let their opening of relations indicate which countries they have recognized.--Khajidha (talk) 14:15, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
 * New Zealand does not maintain diplomatic relations with Taiwan, but does maintain economic and cultural links. New Zealand’s economic and cultural interests in Taiwan are represented by the New Zealand Commerce and Industry Office and Taiwan's interests in New Zealand by the Taipei Economic and Cultural Offices in Wellington and Auckland.  Informal and unofficial visits or exchanges also take place. This is written in web site of MFA of New Zeland http://mfat.govt.nz/Countries-and-Territories/Taiwan.php The Kosovo Ambassador in London is accredited to New Zealand. http://www.mfat.govt.nz/Embassies/2-Foreign-representatives-to-NZ/0-dip-cons-list.php?country=Kosovo&emb=1 Kosovo’s first Ambassador to NewZealand (resident in London) presented his Credentials to the Governor General in February 2010. http://mfat.govt.nz/Countries/Europe/Kosovo.php Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 11:47, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Pacolli says that today Nigeria has decided to recognize Kosovo
He says the cabinet had a long debate, but decided to recognize Kosovo. In the meantime, regional news in Africa are reporting that the Federal Government of Nigeria has decided to establish formal bilateral ties through opening a trade center in Kosovo. --alchaemia (talk) 18:52, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Here's two more stories announcing recognition  - Canadian Bobby (talk) 19:42, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I do not think we can add Nigeria to the list without official confirmation- we should wait for it. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 18:04, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, let's wait until tomorrow evening. --alchaemia (talk) 19:00, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Slovakia supported and voted for Kosovo to join IMF and World Bank
Source: Wikileaks quoting former Slovakia Foreign Minister, Lajcak. But he assured Vershbow that SLOVAKIA would be `practical and pragmatic,' noting that he had taken a number of steps as foreign minister to make the SLOVAKIA-KOSOVO relationship more normal (e.g., accepting KOSOVO passports, accepting IMF and World Bank membership).

http://cablesearch.org/cable/view.php?id=09BRATISLAVA455&hl=Slovakia+Kosovo .Proudserb84 09:42, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Cameroon supported Kosovo to join World Bank and IMF
http://cablesearch.org/cable/view.php?id=09YAOUNDE453&hl=kosovo+cameroon Proudserb84 10:23, 13 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Proudserb84 (talk • contribs)

Even Tanzania towards recognition of Kosovo
In Dar es Salaam Pacolli is expected to the highest state honors, and has met with Tanzanian President Jakaya Kikwete and minister of foreign affairs of this country, Bernard Membe. Are positive signals from Tanzania. They have accepted our argument to the request of recognition of the Republic of Kosovo. With the Tanzanian President discussed the possibility of recognizing collective of Kosovo by Southern African Development Community.  Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 22:45, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Kosovo) will formally confirm the recognition of Gabon and Nigeria with the arrival of the note verbale from the Deputy Prime Pacolli after his arrival from the tour in Africa.
 * Enver Hoxhaj today met with another candidate for president of Egypt, Hamdeen Sabahi who promised Kosovo's recognition.

Nigeria has not yet recognized Kosovo =
I had found out a source from B92 News that shows that Nigeria has not yet recognized Kosovo. Please accept this. Thank you. This is the source. RohilPCS (talk 17:09, 13 September 2011(UTC)
 * Tomorrow is expected that Kosovo's Foreign Ministry to publish the note verbale of Nigeria. On September 16 together with Pacolli in Pristina will come a delegation from Gabon that will bring verbale note. Jeremic speaks without facts, does not mention the names of officials, speaking with assumptions. Jeremic said that Guinea Bissau's delegation had given a letter for cancellation of recognition. Nobody has seen the letter, except Jeremic. In his dreams, naturally!!! Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 23:55, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Koha: Clashes in Nigeria over Kosovo
Koha Ditore today says that Nigerian politicians are clashing over the recognition - Përplasje për Kosovën në Nigeri --Avala (talk) 11:14, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You give a dead link --Vinie007 12:13, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Weird, the link worked fine for me an hour ago or so. It essentially said (Google translation) that the President and the Parliament were in favour of recognizing Kosovo, but the foreign minister ignored their wishes. What might be important is, that the article didn't mention that this internal row is now resolved. The accusations that Jeremic and/or Pacolli lied might not have been entirely fair, since they could have got their information from different sides of these internal Nigerian squabbles. Now, if the President signed and conveyed a document in which Nigeria recognized Kosovo we can safely ignore this row, since he is the supreme representative of his country in the international arena and the only one who matters. However, as long as our information is just based on conflicting media reports, I'd suggest to remove Nigeria from the list for the time being. Gugganij (talk) 12:38, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Kosovo and Andorra establish dip. relations
Kosovo and Andorra have established diplomatic relations today. --alchaemia (talk) 14:02, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * This is one for Foreign relations of Kosovo, not here. Bazonka (talk) 18:18, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Hoxhaj meets in Egypt with representatives of NTC of Libya
At the conclusion of his visit to Egypt, the Minister Hoxhaj also met representatives Transitional Council of Libya. At this meeting the Minister informed them of the decision of Kosovo, which has accepted the council as the only governing authority in Libya.

Faiz Jibril, representative of NTC said that the Gaddafi policy has ended already in Libya. He added that Gaddafi has never represented the opinion of most people, but always personal interests. New Libya will recognize Kosovo.


 * 3 potential candidates for president of Egypt have promised to recognize Kosovo. They are Amr Moussa, Ayman Nour and Hamdeen Sabahi. Even religious leaders have promised to lobby for Kosovo. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 00:22, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Gabon recognized Kosovo(82)
Gabon recognizes Kosovo

Nga Express më 09 shtator 2011 në ora 10:22 From Express on September 9, 2011 at 10:22 am

Zëvendëskryeministri i parë i Qeverisë së Kosovës, Behgjet Pacolli konfirmon zyrtarisht, ardhjen e njohjes për shtetin e Kosovës, nga Republika e Gabonit. First Deputy Prime Minister of Kosovo, Behgjet Pacolli officially confirmed, the advent of state recognition for Kosovo, the Republic of Gabon.

"Njohja zyrtarisht i është konfirmuar zëvendëskryeministrit Pacolli, në orët e vona të mbrëmjes së kaluar, në Gabon, nga udhëheqësit më të lartë të këtij shteti. Gjatë ditës do të informoheni me detajet", thuhet në një njoftim të zyrës së Pacollit. "Knowledge is officially confirmed Deputy Pacolli, late last evening, in Gabon, from the highest leaders of this country. During the day will be informed of the details," said in a press office Pacolli.

http://www.gazetaexpress.com/index.php?cid=1,13,62452

Please update the list

Denizlin (talk) 08:48, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Republic of Gabon recognizes Republic of Kosovo – number UN member states recognizing Kosovo remains at 81. Kosovar media report that the Deputy Prime Minister Behxhet Pacolli has confirmed the recognition by Republic of Gabon. It also reports that the Verbal Note sent by the Sultanate of Oman was misinterpreted as a recognition. As a result the Ministry of Foreign Affairs it is claimed corrected this error and has removed Oman from the list of countries that have recognized the Repubic of Kosovo (see: MFA List). Nevertheless Oman still appears on the MFA list. With this correction Gabon becomes the 81st UN Member state to recognize Kosovo. We would like to thank the people of Gabon for extending the hand of friendship and respect. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 11:55, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * What?! You can't have diplomatic relations with a country you don't recognize! - Canadian Bobby (talk) 11:40, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but this is bullshit as Oman is in fact still on the list of MFA and it will not be removed from the list of MFA: http://www.mfa-ks.net/index.php?page=2,33 --46.115.18.74 (talk) 00:58, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

'''Why not put Gabon on the list of countries that recognized Kosovo? If wait Foreign Ministry to publish this and after then to make a difference. (curiosity)''' Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 15:02, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * No real evidence of this recognition has been given. See - there is still doubt that it's happened. Given the events of the last day, I really don't know what to believe any more. Bazonka (talk) 16:29, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * MFA's official twitter account says YES, but they still haven't posted it on the website . I suggest we wait for a couple of days. --alchaemia (talk) 19:07, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

First of all, we need to stop fighting over media publications. Someone just changed the article from 83 to 82. We need to fix this mess. Serbia media has provided weak and confusing articles - not even tabloid write such poorly written journalistic articles. On top of it, We have solid arguments from officials of both countries stating they have relations with KOsovo. We need to stick to official notes, not media. Stick to 83. If things come different, we change it. Let's not fight over this. Proudserb84 (talk) 03:28, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Here is a Gabonese media story reporting that Gabon has recognized Kosovo (in French) - Canadian Bobby (talk) 04:54, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It says that the president "gave instructions to the Government to take all measures necessary for the recognition of Kosovo". Whilst that certainly shows that recognition will happen, it is not clear whether it actually has yet. Bazonka (talk) 07:06, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Update on Egypt
http://www.isria.com/pages/14_September_2011_33.php — Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.130.188.7 (talk) 16:01, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That is news from the Arab League, and Egyptian religious leaders, not from any Egyptian politicians. Bazonka (talk) 17:13, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Serbian section needs some serious expansion
As per International_recognition_of_Kosovo, it is quite unbelievable that Serbian POV on this subject is limited to an entire 3 lines, yet cruft fills most of the article. Take for example, the basically irrelevant opinion of the so-called Chechen Republic of Ichkeria - it takes up almost 5 times as much space as the Serbian POV. Why is this? And the same goes for most other countries - none of these countries opinion are more notable, nor relevant, that Serbia's, and this needs to be seriously looked at. --Russavia Let's dialogue 12:21, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Is Serbia's section too short or are the other sections too long? Or both? We've discussed trimming the other countries' reactions in the past, but nothing seems to have come of it. --Khajidha (talk) 12:39, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd argue that the positions of Russia and China (and all of the PERM5 actually) are more relevant than that of Serbia. If it weren't for the Russian threat of a veto, Kosovo would have good short-term chances of becoming a UN member which would render Serbia's opinions on its independence essentially irrelevant. --alchaemia (talk) 12:44, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The section is already expanded - see the link at the top to Main Article: Serbia's reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence. Where a link to a Main Article is included, only a brief synopsis is required. Bazonka (talk) 17:10, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Oman, Nigeria and Guinea-Bissau
Why are those country's still listed like they officially recognized RoK, when they didn't? Only relevant thing should official letter of recognition. -- WhiteWriter speaks 12:03, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Nigeria is not on the list anymore; Oman and Guinea-Bissau were discussed excessively a few lines above. Gugganij (talk) 13:50, 15 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Some of the shit Jeremic comes up with is rather amusing. We shouldn't let his myths affect the article though as that would degrade it. IJA (talk) 08:06, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Benin recognises... again
I don't know what's going on here:. Apparently, Benin has just recignised Kosovo. But I thought that they already recognised it a month ago:. Can anyone explain? Bazonka (talk) 07:37, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
 * In both news is published date 18/08/2011 no nothing here to explain. Where is poblem here??? Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 10:47, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem (poblemi?) is that I'm an idiot. I got my 08 and 09 muddled. Sorry about that. Bazonka (talk) 08:54, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Excuse me for my English. Because I do not speak good English, because I am Italian speaker. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 13:46, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Oman, Nigeria and Guinea-Bissau
Hi. Today I read that Oman, Nigeria and Guinea-Bissau didn't recognized Kosovo as independent. --MikyM (talk) 15:44, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * While the situation in Nigeria is still unclear, Oman and Guinea-Bisau are already discussed several times on this page. Oman has appointed an ambassador to Kosovo, this signifies their recognition. Guinea-Bisau has sent a letter confirming their recognition, there is a picture of the document already on this page. --Khajidha (talk) 16:04, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

It's clear that you are the one who is pushing your own opinion on this subject. If Omani Minister of Foreign Affairs declare that Oman have never recognized Kosovo how can you say, just because they've send representative to Pristina that Oman recognize Kosovo as independent state? Also if representatives of Guinea-Bissau announce that their parliament refused to recognize Kosovo how can you say that Guinea-Bissau recognize Kosovo?. Also Nigeria officially announced that Pacoli is lying about recognition of Kosovo.

I think that absolutely neutral solution would be that Oman and Guinea-Bissau for now stand separately as controversial. --S T E V A N (talk)  16:41, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep as it is, untill good arguments are given--Vinie007 16:48, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Stevanb, did you read the letter above from the president of Guinea-Bissau? That letter says that G-B recognizes the independence and sovereignty of the Republic of Kosovo. Whatever individual parliament members say, THAT is the official position of G-B. As for Oman, the sending of an ambassador implies recognition. Since the one has occurred, so has the other. --Khajidha (talk) 17:10, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * @StevanB: As in the case of Guinea-Bisau (whose recognition withdrawal was untrue) the only source about Nigeria is another statement by Jeremic, who says that Nigeria didn't recognize Kosovo and Pacoli is lying. Of course only Jeremic's B92 comments raise such an issue, while Nigeria's Minister of Foreign Affairs Damian Agwu confirmed the recognition and announced the establishment of Nigeria-Kosovo trade center.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk


 * 1. As I said Omani Foreign Minister declared that they never recognized Kosovo. Now give me the paper which explicitly claim that Oman recognize Kosovo
 * 2. Guinea-Bissau representative said that Parliament REFUSED to even discuss about this subject. This was official representative on Non-Aligned Movement Summit held in Belgrade September 5-6
 * 3. Nigeria - No prove - any document - that this country recognized Kosovo. Some fake text from yellow newspaper can not be prove!

Please I would like to hear some objective opinion not opinion such this three above from very subjective Kosovo-Albanian people! Thanks in advance, --S T E V A N (talk)  18:37, 13 September 2011 (UTC)


 * 1 Yes we will, as soon as you give us the recording, and a notarized translation, of him saying that.
 * 2 We already have a letter from the president of Guinea-Bissau, and it doesn't get much higher than that. You can stick to your "representative to the Non-Aligned Movement", we'll stick to facts.
 * 3 There will be "prove" (proof) tomorrow. Be patient. --alchaemia (talk) 18:59, 13 September 2011 (UTC)


 * @Guinea-Bissau: In international law the supreme representative of a country in foreign affairs is its head of state (although he can act by proxy). The internal forum is irrelevant. Now, there might be internal legal procedures to be followed (e.g. diplomatic recognitions might need - rather unusual - the approval of parliament), however from the perspective of international law those internal procedures do not affect the validity of foreign policy acts. If the President of Guinea-Bissau violated internal legal requirements he is to be held responsible according to the Guinea-Bissau's constitutional arrangements (e.g. impeachment). But as long as he, as the sole representative in external affairs does not rescind recognition, international law is clear: Guinea-Bissau recognized Kosovo's independence. Gugganij (talk) 19:10, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Stevan, and regarding Oman - no they did not issue a formal declaration of recognition, but they established diplomatic relations. This was their way of de facto recognising. Why would they establish relations with a country that they did not deem to exist? Bazonka (talk) 21:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)


 * alchaemia, Gugganij lol you are the one who should prove with any kind of official paper that Oman recognizes Kosovo! It is clear that you nor your fake country representatives does not have one! Guinea-Bissau - OK you have paper from the president of this country. I said that their parliament refused to vote on this issue. I don't know how their constitution regulates this. I'm not sure that president can make a decision without parliament agreement on such sensitive and important issue. Nigeria? Where's their recognition? :) Again fake information from your "government" :) --S T E V A N (talk)  18:30, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Bazonka

1. In Omani letters send to Kosovo authorities/Embassy of Kosovo in London there is not a single sentence saying that Sultanate of Oman recognize Kosovo as independent. Also they haven't send Ambassador to Kosovo, that tells a lot! --S T E V A N (talk)  18:31, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You don't need an ambassador in order to have diplomatic relations. Bazonka (talk) 18:55, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * YAWN ZZZZZZZZZZ This is getting old. Establishing diplomatic relations is a step further than just simply recognising, hence the reason why you can't have diplomatic relations with a country you don't recognise. A lot of countries have never just recognised Montenegro, they mainly do so via the establishment of Diplomatic Relations. Do you suggest that only around 50 countries recognise Montenegro because Montenegro has only received around 50 recognitions and that the circa 100 establishments of Diplomatic Relations without a separate recognition of Montenegro do not constitute as recognition? Also Ambassadors and Embassies are not needed for diplomatic relations, that is an even further step forward.


 * Step 1: Mutual Recognition
 * Step 2: Diplomatic Relations
 * Step 3: The appointment of Ambassadors (High Commissioners)
 * Step 4: The Opening of Embassies (High Commissions)
 * Oman has taken relations with Kosovo to step 2, maybe step 3 by appointing their ambassador to London as the accredited ambassador to Pristina. Just like Kosovo has taken relations to step 3 by appointing their ambassador to London as also the ambassador to Muscat. IJA (talk) 08:22, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

'''Montenegro has only received around 50 recognitions!!! So funny! Number of countries that recognized Montenegro : 148''' http://www.mip.gov.me/en/index.php/Bilateral/dates-of-recognition-and-establishment-of-diplomatic-relations.html IH1992 (talk) 17:01, 19 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs)


 * You obviously haven't read properly what I wrote. I said that the majority of the recognitions for Montenegro were made via the establishment of diplomatic relations the same way in which Oman recognised Kosovo, rather than issuing letters of recognition. Also you do the maths in what I said about Montenegro. Circa 50 plain recognitions + Circa 100 recognitions via the establishment of Diplomatic Relations = circa 150 in total aka 148 to be exact. IJA (talk) 15:56, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe that the establishment of diplomatic relations is equivalent to the recognition of a country. example New Zeladan did not say clearly to recognize the Republic of Kosovo but has diplomatic relations established with Kosovo. This means that New Zealand recognized Kosovo. This was declared at the time by Hillary Clinton. IH1992 (talk) 19:06, 19 September 2011 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs)
 * That is exactly what I have been saying, Diplomatic Relations is a step further than just simple recognition. IJA (talk) 17:10, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Bosnia
Idk if this relevant but Bosnia is either in the process or has accepted Kosovo's customs.

http://english.albeu.com/albania-news/bosnia-accepts-the-kosovo-seals/45973/ http://www.telegrafi.com/?id=46&a=9135 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.29.83.70 (talk) 18:49, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * What a stupid, POV source... -- WhiteWriter speaks 22:18, 16 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I've found another POV stupid source... B92 :-) IJA (talk) 06:59, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * How do we even know that this "Bosnia" the article discusses is not some Albanian invention that is being used for propaganda purposes? - Canadian Bobby (talk) 07:57, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Haha... I'd be careful if I were you because someone will try and sue you for making such claims ;-) IJA (talk) 08:03, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * But IJA, i dont get it. That stamp does not have any marks of Kosovo’s statehood. That doesn't mean that state Bosnia and Herzegovina recognized Republic of Kosovo. -- WhiteWriter speaks 09:57, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


 * No-one is saying that BiH has recognised Kosovo. I agree, this whole section on the talk page about Bosnia recognising Kosovo's customs stamp is pointless, it would be better suited on the articles "Economy of Bosnia and Herzegovina", "Economy of Kosovo" and "CEFTA". IJA (talk) 10:10, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Pacolli interview for Zëri Newspaper
Former President of Kosovo and 1st Deputy Prime Minister of Kosovo Behgjet Pacolli in interview for Zëri Newspaper pronounce:
 * 1) Nigeria: Minister of Foreign Affairs of Nigeria Olugbenga Ashiru informed me that the recognition of Kosovo is evident. Pacolli guarantee that Nigeria has begun the process for formal recognition of Kosovo, even though it is in extremely great pressure from our northern neighbor. Minister of Foreign Affairs Ashiru, in a press conference he denied the information alleged that Nigeria has made ​​U-turn in relation with the Republic of Kosovo. At the press conference two days ago, Foreign Minister reaffirms relations with Kosovo start and opened the door for the creation of a bilateral representation in Pristina and Abuja.
 * 2) Gabon: Gabon's Council of Ministers has approved recognition of Kosovo. Note verbale is a formality, which informed a state that the institutions of a country make a decision on recognition of the sovereignty of a state. This note verbale can never succeed without the government's decision. Even the formality of the note verbale will follow after returning from New York.
 * 3) Oman: Pacolli; I guarantee that after a communication I had with them, and after speculation from Belgrade, that this country is on the list of friends and supporters Kosovo. Belgrade is only talking about the lack of diplomatic representatives of Oman in Kosovo. However, we have many states that have recognized Kosovo but have no diplomatic representation in Prishtina.
 * 4) Southern African Development Community: President of South Africa Sir Jacob Zuma and President of Tanzania Sir. Jakaya Kikwete have promised that South Africa and Tanzania will recognize Kosovo. South Africa and Tanzania are lobby in Southern African Development Community that recognition of Kosovo to make from all members in block. SADC have 15 states members. Now, only 2 members have recognized Kosovo Swaziland and Malawi.
 * 5) Côte d'Ivoire will recognize Kosovo. (although there exist many difficulties of internal character)
 * 6) Togo will recognize Kosovo.
 * 7) Ghana will recognize Kosovo.
 * 8) Mali made a decision on recognition of Kosovo. It is expected the verbal note from this country.
 * 9) African Fifth Tour: After meetings at the UN, Pacolli will visit Cameroon, Uganda, Kenya, Chad and Sudan. "With this tour I believe that should be expected and the formation of new governments in Egypt and Tunisia and Libya, which certainly will need to visit." Pacolli said. http://www.zeri.info/artikulli/1/30/34422/paralajmeron-surpriza-per-skeptiket/ Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 20:09, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Nigeria is 83
Why is the number still at 82 even after Nigeria? The number should be 83, see here: www.kosovathanksyou.com --89.204.136.53 (talk) 02:11, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Ugh. Dude, if you'd have taken a few seconds to look at the contents of the page, you would have seen that this has been discussed ad nauseam et ad infinitum.  I think we're all tired of it and are awaiting official confirmation. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 03:20, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Oman and Guinea-Bissau took back thair recognition
States Oman and Guinea-Bissau took back thair recognition of Kosovo as independet country. Now they see it like AP Kosovo and Metohia again.

Sourse: http://translate.google.rs/translate?hl=sr&sl=sr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blic.rs%2FVesti%2FTema-Dana%2F275784%2FPovlace-priznanje-Republike-Kosovo

UPDATE IT PLEASE! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Јован Јеромела (talk • contribs) 20:49, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Ridiculous! Republic of Kosovo Established Diplomatic Relations with Sultanate of Oman Pristina, 4 February 2011 - The Republic of Kosovo has established diplomatic relations with the Sultanate of Oman. Earlier today, our Embassy in London received the letter from the Sultanate of Oman which paves the way for their establishment of diplomatic relations with the Republic of Kosovo. This letter, addressed to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, reads as follows: “In acknowledging the decision of the International Court of Justice on the independence of Kosovo, the Government of the Sultanate of Oman will welcome Kosovo’s membership to the United Nations, as well as to other international and regional organizations it wishes to join”. The MFA decided today to accredit Ambassador of the Republic of Kosovo in London, Muhamet Hamiti, as the Non-Resident Ambassador to Oman, and this request will be forwarded to the competent authorities of the Sultanate of Oman. The Sultanate of Oman is the 75th country that recognized independence of the Republic of Kosovo. http://www.mfa-ks.net/?page=2,4,629, The Republic of Guinea-Bissau Recognized the Republic of Kosovo Pristina, 14 January 2011 – The Republic of Guinea-Bissau recognized independence of Kosovo and expressed its readiness for establishment of diplomatic relations between the two countries. The letter of recognition reads that “President of the Republic of Guinea-Bissau, His Excellency Malam Bacai, renders his compliments to the Government of the Republic of Guinea-Bissau and notifies it that the relevant authorities of the Republic of Guinea-Bissau recognized independence and sovereignty of the Republic of Kosovo, and expresses a desire for the swift establishment of diplomatic relations”. The Republic of Guinea-Bissau’s recognition of Kosovo’s independence raises the total number of such recognitions to 74.http://www.mfa-ks.net/?page=2,4,629  (talk • contribs) 23:42, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Before anyone adds back in these two countries, please remember the precedent on the A&SO article, where even WITH the documents showing proof of recognition of Abkhazia by Vanuatu, the minute that Georgia disputed this, the "recognition" was yanked from the article. This is not a sui generis situation on this article, for there is now clearly doubt as to whether recognition has been rescinded by these two countries, and hence they should be put into some other category where claims and counter claims can be placed. --Russavia Let's dialogue 21:48, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Edit conflict - I was about to say a similar thing...
 * Let's wait until we have further confirmation of what's happened before making rash changes to the article. It is certainly possible that recognitions have been withdrawn, but there is no firm evidence that it's happened. If it has, then we should probably add a new table to the article, and a new colour to the map. Why don't we see what tomorrow's media has to say? Bazonka (talk) 21:50, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Serbia's Foreign Ministry has not published anything. This is speculation. (talk • contribs) 23:54, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Well having a look at the media is all well and good. But I do recall on the A&SO article, that Vanuatu was pulled from the article, based only upon claims from Georgia. How reliable is blic.rs? Can someone give some indication to this at all? If it is generally considered a reliable source, I support the immediate placement of Oman and Guinea-Bissau into a separate section, as Vanuatu was on the A&SO article, until it is confirmed whether there is recognition. I see nothing from mofa.gov.om for example confirming the recognition back in February - only sources quoting Kosovo MFA. Quite odd, I must say. --Russavia Let's dialogue 21:57, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * This isn't the A&SO article. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 22:40, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * President of Guinea-Bissau Malam Bacai Sanhá recognized independence and sovereignty of the Republic of Kosovo, and expresses a desire for the swift establishment of diplomatic relations. Oman has not only recognized Kosovo but has established diplomatic relations, where Sabri Hamiti is resident ambassador in London. All "blic" writes have no name who has done this. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 00:10, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * As I remember, Guinea-Bissau specifically sent an emissary to deliver the note verbale because they had mistakenly addresed the original one to Pacolli rather than to the MFA. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 22:35, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Bobby could you please contact the diplomats of those two countries and ask them for an official answer? There is no point in arguing here, no matter how much we discuss we can't come up with any conclusion because we don't have any information (and it's possible there is also confusion in those countries themselves as someone suggested like it was in Vanuatu; diplomats from those countries that said in Belgrade that they didn't recognise Kosovo could be some clueless low level diplomats, I mean if president of Ukraine cannot differentiate between Kosovo and Montenegro maybe they can't either, who knows what's the catch). I suggest keeping Oman and Guinea-Bissau for the time being because on one side we have the Kosovo Govt and on the other we have a newspaper article which for all we know could be based on a statement that was given with false information. If they indeed decided to revert recognitions I suggest adding such countries to a separate table below ROC.--Avala (talk) 22:50, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Can anyone point to any link (other than the one of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Kosovo, or journals quoting the former) where Oman and/or Guine Bissau explicitly recognize this former Yugoslav province as an independent country? AS for the reliability of Blic, it a part of the German/Swiss Ringier Axel Springer media group.  The story is also being run by http://www.b92.net/info/vesti/index.php?yyyy=2011&mm=09&dd=08&nav_category=640&nav_id=540473 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beogradjanin011 (talk • contribs) 22:48, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia describes Blic as a tabloid, which in the English-speaking world has negative connotations. B92 just repeats the Blic story. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 23:56, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * At one point, Pacolli's website had the Guinea-Bissau note verbale up on its website, but it seems to have disappeared. I have it saved on my computer if anybody wants to see it.
 * Governments dislike it very much when anybody puts words in their mouths. Kosovo's MFA publicly announced Oman and Guinea-Bissau's recognitions and those governments did not refute it.  Just using Russavia's example, Vanuatu was quick to publicly, if in a somewhat convoluted manner, clarify its position on recognition of Abkhazia.  I think if Oman and G-B had not recognized Kosovo, they would've publicly disavowed it, if nothing else than at Serbia's insistence.  I think if they had disavowed recognition, they would've not waited 9 months to do so and allow the notion that they had recognized to continue.
 * I've no idea what those diplomats were really saying. I don't speak or read Serbian, Arabic, or Portuguese, and I wasn't there to see their body language or hear their actual words.  It is more likely than not that they were politely expressing regret that this bump had to come up in their bilateral relations with Serbia.  Perhaps speaking in a personal capacity the diplomats had said they wished it hadn't happened.  The journalists heard this and ran with a 'recognition never happened' angle.  Am I speculating?  You bet, but I think it is not entirely unreasonable speculation.  As we've learned, journalists and diplomats tend to exaggerate. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 23:01, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * ETA - Here is the story about the emissary coming from Guinea-Bissau with a corrected note verbale - Canadian Bobby (talk) 23:06, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

The page should not have been changed without consensus. The Kosovo media is also reporting the story, although in the form of a question. Official denials or confirmations will probably follow in the next day or so, so we'll have an answer. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 23:29, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I support the facts and arguments that brings Canadian Bobby. I do a question. Who is he that made the decision to withdraw recognition? This is a speculation for me. Vuk Jeremic and Boris Tadic have not confirmed. Blic speculates! Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 01:32, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

A point of grammatical order - the article says, if it's to be believed, that Oman and Guinea-Bissau "WILL" withdraw recognition. That means it hasn't happened yet and may at some undetermined point in the future. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 23:41, 7 September 2011 (UTC) ETA: Another point of order - Oman established diplomatic relations with Kosovo. Any change would not be a withdrawal of recognition but a severance of relations - Canadian Bobby (talk) 01:34, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I reverted the edits made that removed Guinea-Bissau and Oman. If the news is confirmed, THEN we can take them off. If not, they should stay. I think that's reasonable. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 23:50, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Good decision. There is more evidence showing that they recognised than that they have withdrawn this. Bazonka (talk) 07:09, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Deputy Foreign Minister of Kosovo Petrit Selimi in a communication he had with reporter of The Economist Mr. Tim Judah has announced confirmation that Guinea-Bissau has officially recognized Kosovo, Guinea-Bissau, not only has recognized Kosovo but has expressed a desire to establish diplomatic relations. Kosovo holds constant relations with this country. He said that Oman has led to a letter formerly to the Embassy of Kosovo in London saying that the formerly Oman supports UN membership of Kosovo and that Oman has established diplomatic relation with Kosovo, Muhamet Hamiti is non-resident ambassador of the Republic of Kosovo to Oman. The letter does not speak for recognition but for the establishment of diplomatic relations. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 12:24, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Official: Deputy Foreign Minister of Kosovo Petrit Selimi has declared that Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Kosovo) this morning contacted authorities in Bissau. Guinea-Bissau has not changed position on Kosovo recognition. All this is speculative "game" of Vuk Jeremić. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 13:15, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Why those two are still on the list when the authorities of those states said they actually never recognized Kosovo while Kosovo separatists self proclaimed that? Update list correctly!

Oman and Guinea Bissau off the list. There's the valid source for this info, while you just speak about opposite with no direct prooves!79.175.118.209 (talk) 20:36, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

"Relevant" international membership
I have removed the "relevant" international membership column from the first lot of tables. The reason for this is very easy, and two pronged. First, it is cruft. Second, the only relevant international membership is if a nation is a member of the UN, and these entities are already separated. Whether a nation is a member of NATO, the EU, or the OIC is also quite irrelevant, as none of these entities are sovereign states with the power to recognise entities - that is very clear from the fact that EU members such as Spain refuse to recognise. Also, how is membership in any of these organisations any more "relevant" that whether a nation is a member of the CIS, CSTO, ASEAN, Arab League, etc, all of which also have put forward their opinions. Also, whether a nation was a member of the UNSC at the time of the unilateral declaration of independence, as it has absolutely no bearing on anything - the DOI was unilateral and was not part of any UN-sponsored effort. So I fail to see how Panama being a non-permanent member of the UNSC at the time of the DOI has any relevance at all. The only membership of any true relevance is whether a nation is a member of the UN - being a permanent member of the UNSC is also quite relevant given that only they can veto entry of any nation into the UN - but there is no need to single that fact out. As it is not demonstrated why membership of any organisation other than the UN is relevant, I have removed the section completely. --Russavia Let's dialogue 12:48, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I reverted your "good-faith" removal of "cruft" as you have to achieve consensus first before you go around changing huge swathes of this page. I, for one, don't agree with your "analysis" of what "really matters" and what we should include here. --alchaemia (talk) 12:59, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * NATO, the EU and the OIC are all organizations that Kosovo aspires to join. Increasing ties to Europe would be attained by joining the EU and the collective defense of Europe is currently handled primarily by NATO. As a predominantly Muslim country, Kosovo would like to increase ties to its cultural brethren making OIC important. If Kosovo wishes to join any of the other groups you mentioned, then their members should be marked as well. I still say we should remove the listing for non-permanent UN Security Council members, though. --Khajidha (talk) 13:06, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * This information should not have been removed. It is useful. However, CIS, ASEAN etc. should not be included - what relevance have they to Kosovo or Serbia? The list should include those organisations instrumental in Kosovo's declaration of independence, and those which RoK aspires to join. Bazonka (talk) 17:07, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Whether certain political parties of the Republic of Kosovo want to join this organisation or that organisation is actually quite irrelevant as well. It has yet to be demonstrated how any membership of any country is relevant as to whether they have recognised the Republic of Kosovo or not. If membership of any given organisation by any recognising or non-recognising entity is relevant, then one has to question how relevant that membership really is, when of the 3 organisations which are used have their members split on recognition or non-recognition. Their membership is absolutely irrelevant. Spain is a perfect example. Is it's membership of NATO or the EU relevant to their recognition? No, it is totally irrelevant. What is relevant is that they are faced with Basque separatists. Was India's decision to not recognise relevant them currently being a UNSC member? No, it's totally irrelevant. What is relevant is Kashmir. Is Cyprus' membership of the EU relevant to their decision not to recognise? Again, totally irrelevant. Northern Cyprus is what is relevant. Is Afghanistan's membership of the OIC relevant to their decision to recognise? Probably more relevant is that its government is not independent in its foreign affairs (i.e. stooges). Is membership of any of these organisations relevant to any decision? Absolutely not.

It's really nice that the Republic of Kosovo would like to join some of these organisations, but that is totally irrelevant here; although it could go into Foreign relations of the Republic of Kosovo. --Russavia Let's dialogue 19:16, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That is a better argument than your earlier one: "cruft". I am marginally swayed, but not much. What do others think? Bazonka (talk) 19:42, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Like you I find it somewhat persuasive but not totally convincing. --Khajidha (talk) 19:47, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Not convinced. He hasn't explained, at all, how removing them will improve the article. Against. --alchaemia (talk) 07:09, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I would agree that the information about non-permanent members of the UNSC is now of little relevance to the article and should be removed, while it was relevant at the time of initial declaration, it has lost its usefulness and is now confusing. I could also agree with removal of permanent member of UNSC info as it is only 5 countries and most people know who they are anyway. On EU and OIC membership, I agree with Russavia that a countries membership of these organisations is not the deciding factor in their recognition or not of Kosovo. However the question for us is whether that information is useful to encyclopedia users? It is clear that both Kosovan and European politicians see the future of Kosovo in the EU, notwithstanding the extreme difficulties for this to happen without full recognition. See for example http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/potential-candidates/index_en.htm which clearly shows Kosovo as a potential EU candidate albeit under UN1244 supervision rather than as an independent state. It is also clear that OIC membership is both sought by Kosovo and on the agenda of influential OIC nations. Therefore an encyclopedia user who wishes to see whether Kosovo's candidature for EU or OIC is likely to be successful will find this information useful. NATO membership is probably less immediately on the agenda but given the historical involvement of NATO in Kosovo I would favour leaving it in. However Russavia is right that the Foreign Relations of Kosovo article needs some of this relevant information listed as well, certainly the summaries for EU, CoE, and OIC from the Positions taken by Intergovernmental Organisations section would be useful here. Andrewdpcotton (talk) 09:48, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I support the removal of non-permanent UNSC membership status from the table, and agree that EU, NATO, and OIC membership status are indeed "relevant" and should remain. Benjamin22b (talk) 10:38, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Even though this information is useful it should be included in the International Organisations section instead of increasing the size of the article and filling it up with extra flags etc. The article KB size is arguably too big already and this could be a good way of reducing the KB size. Therefore I support removing all relevant international membership and making sure that all info is included in the international organisation section instead. This way no important encyclopaedic info is lost but we are reducing the KB size of the article. IJA (talk) 09:24, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Officially MFA of Kosovo reconfirmed the recognition of the Sultanate of Oman
Prime Minister of Kosovo, Hashim Thaci and Foreign Minister, Enver Hoxhaj have received confirmation today by the Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Sultanate of Oman, Yusuf bin Alawi bin Abdullah for full recognition of independence of this country. Prime Minister Thaci and Foreign Minister of Oman have agreed to very quickly between the two countries established diplomatic ties connected through the exchange of ambassadors from Oman. Meeting between Prime Minister Thaci and Minister of Foreign Hoxhaj with Bin Abdullah was developed at the Embassy of the Sultanate of Oman near the UN in New York.

In the coming days of the Republic of Kosovo delegation will have meetings with numerous countries that still have not recognized Kosovo's independence, in an effort to increase the number of recognitions. http://www.telegrafi.com/?id=2&a=17156 http://www.gazetaexpress.com/?cid=1,13,63207 Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 19:28, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Kosovo) link (http://www.mfa-ks.net/?page=1,4,954) ; Prime Minister of Kosovo link (http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=1,9,2348) Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 20:54, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Pacolli: recognition from Nigeria is secure
Former President of the Republic of Kosovo Sir Behgjet Pacolli "In Abuja, Pacolli met with the highest authorities of this country, where once again confirmed that the recognition of Kosovo by the state is evident," they said in a statement Pacolli cabinet. Pacolli was informed that the delay of the proceedings of the note verbale of recognition from Nigeria, has occurred because of the work of the General Assembly of the UN. http://www.gazetalajm.info/politike/12939-Pacolli-njohja-nga-Nigeria-sigurt.html http://ina-online.net/kosova/9187.html Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 00:57, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * News from Gabon a few days ago: "At the opening session, the President of the Republic, Head of State, His Excellency Ali Bongo, who found that the mechanism leading to the recognition of Kosovo's independence by the international community is irremediable, gave instructions to the Government to take all measures necessary for the recognition of Kosovo by our country, Gabon." French: "A l’ouverture des travaux, le Président de la République, Chef de l’Etat, Son Excellence Ali BONGO ONDIMBA, ayant constaté que le mécanisme menant à la reconnaissance de l’indépendance du Kosovo par la Communauté Internationale est irrémédiable, a donné des instructions au Gouvernement en vue de prendre toutes les dispositions nécessaires à la reconnaissance du Kosovo par notre pays, le Gabon." Gabon NEWS OFFICIAL web site Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 13:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * This section is about Nigeria; that post is about Gabon. Please try to post things in the relevant sections. In any case, this has already been mentioned above. Bazonka (talk) 11:44, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Excuse me but I did not know that was published here. I read today in the Belgrade newspaper that the Serbian consul in Africa, said that Gabon has not recognized Kosovo. For me the Serbian diplomacy is becoming ridiculous. this is the serbian newspaper Would not be surprised if Jeremic declared that the U.S. and Albania never recognized Kosovo. Just watch the video on the website of the President of Gabon before one month and understand position of Gabon. http://www.presidentalibongo.com/abo-tv?video=4180 Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 14:24, 17 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I am from Bosnia, and no, Bosnia did not accept kosovo independence...If it accept, it will be when Belgrade accept it too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.68.98.230 (talk) 08:20, 22 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Cheers for that. IJA (talk) 09:12, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Yemeni FM says Yemen will recognize Kosovo
FM says they only need to complete the formalities - Canadian Bobby (talk) 17:33, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I have added a few words. Bazonka (talk) 17:05, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Egyptian revolutionaries recognizes and support Kosovo's independence
Secretariat of the Council of Revolution in Egypt, through a press statement announced that the council and the people of Egypt recognizes Kosovo's independence, although this recognition does not come out officially by the Provisional Government in Egypt. (http://www.telegrafi.com/?id=2&a=17146, http://www.zeri.info/artikulli/1/1/34563/revolucionaret-egjiptiane-perkrahin-pavaresine-e-kosoves/ , http://www.kosova-sot.info/politike/kosove/revolucionaret-egjiptiane-perkrahin-pavaresine-e-kosoves- , http://www.gazetaexpress.com/?cid=1,13,63191) Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 16:07, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

We have it in English as well. Egypt's Revolution Council recognizes independence of Kosovo.http://kosovotwitnews.blogspot.com/2011/09/egypts-revolution-council-recognizes.html Proudserb84 14:38, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Hoxhaj has been in Egypt the past few days lobbying and giving interviews. We should maybe mention this? - Canadian Bobby (talk) 19:11, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I've added a sentence. Bazonka (talk) 17:40, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Pacolli activities in New York

 * Guinea country that has recognized Kosovo will lobby for recognition by other countries said President Alpha Condé.
 * Ghana: Pacolli and Foreign Minister Enver Hoxhaj, have met on Tuesday the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ghana, Alhaji Muhammad Mumuni. Pacolli and Hoxhaj have reaffirmed the request for recognition of Kosovo from Ghana. (http://www.gazetalajm.info/politike/13012-Krkojn-njohjen-nga-Gana.html)
 * Côte d'Ivoire: Pacolli meet the President of Côte d'Ivoire Sir. Alassane Ouattara. President Ouattara said "Kosovo recognition from Côte d'Ivoire is in process". (http://www.gazetalajm.info/politike/13013-Pacolli-takon-presidentin-Bregut-Fildisht.html)
 * Diplomatic activities of Pacolli in New York, will continue in the coming days. Pacolli, it is expected that during Tuesday, hold a meeting with President of South Africa, Jacob Zuma and President of Eritrea, Afewerki Isaiah. (http://www.zeri.info/artikulli/1/1/34577/aktivitete-te-ngjeshura-te-pacollit-ne-nju-jork/) Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 20:42, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Why Oman and Guinea Bissau are still on the list?
Those two states did not recognize Kosovo independence, their authorities confirmed in Belgrade. I see down many people wrote abt it with valid links, but they are still on the list!79.175.118.209 (talk) 20:42, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The ref link which "proves" that Oman and Guinea Bissau have recognized this separation is http://www.mfa-ks.net/?page=1,33 Kosovo separatist government web site. Com' on, are you serious?????????? Give some valid links, or remove it as those two have never recognized it, their authorities said in Belgrade!79.175.118.209 (talk) 20:45, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's the Kosovo government website. As in the website of the government these recognitions have been sent to. Exactly who do you think we should link to? None of these "authorities" in Belgrade had the power to determine recognition. Meanwhile, a letter from the president of Guinea-Bissau to Kosovo stating that his country recognizes them has been produced. As head of state, the president DOES have this power. --Khajidha (talk) 21:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Republic of Kosovo has issued a statement confirming the recognition by Sultanate of Oman. The confirmation that Oman has recognized Kosovo happened during bilateral meetings between the Kosovo delegation and the Omani delegation at the United Nations in New York.

The Omani Foreign Minister, Yusuf bin Alawi bin Abdullah, has communicated the decision and position of his government to the Prime Minister of Kosovo, Hashim Thaçi, and the Foreign Minister of Kosovo, Enver Hoxhaj, during the meeting in New York.

We would like to thank the Omani people and government for reconfirming their stance and maintaining their friendship with the Kosovar people.

Link: Ministry of Foreign Affairs reconfirmation http://www.mfa-ks.net/?page=1,4,954. Guinea Bissau has been explained a hundred times and do not believe should be discussed. President Guinea Bissau recognize Kosovo — Preceding unsigned comment added by Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 21:54, 20 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Well considering that both Guinea Bissau and Oman have both re-confirmed their recognition of Kosovo, Jeremic has been proven to be a liar. Therefore both Guinea Bissau and Oman are on the list because they recognise Kosovo. Period! IJA (talk) 00:55, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Yet somebody did remove them from the list in the meantime, without there being consensus. MaartenVidal (talk) 16:49, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Côte d'Ivoire recognize Kosovo
The recognition is confirmed in New York by the president of this country, Alassane Ouattara, who met with Behgjet Pacolli and Foreign Minister of Kosovo, Enver Hoxhaj. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 00:30, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * We ought to make sure we get a link from MFA confirming it before we post in Wikipedia.--Proudserb84 00:34, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Even I agree that need confirmation from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Although this news possible will be confirmed by Hoxhaj tomorrow as he was at the meeting. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 04:13, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The best solution would be that these countries Gabon, Nigeria and Cote d'Ivoire put on Wikipedia but add this term +Awaiting Confirmation. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 11:15, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Why? The only people disputing it are the Serbian government, who have the most to lose from Kosovo's increasing recognition. I find it strange that so many people come here objecting to the announcements from the Kosovo MFA because the Kosovars have something to gain from increasing recognition but have no problem accepting every supposed rejection of recognition reported by the Serbian MFA despite THEIR obvious interest in keeping the number of recognitions down. Apparently, these people believe that the Kosovo government is just making up these recognitions. If that were true, why wouldn't they have just announced two and a half years ago that the entire world had recognized Kosovo (including Serbia)? Obviously that didn't happen because the Kosovan government realizes that claiming recognition from a country that does not extend it would cause a protest from that country and inhibit the development of relations with that country and slow the development of relations with other countries. I say we list all those countries that the Kosovan government has announced without any "awaiting confirmation" notice and change the list if and when necessitated by the announcement directly from one or more of those countries that "no, we did not recognize". Second and third hand reports that so and so from "Random African country #29" to "unnamed Serbian government functionary" should be laughed off. --Khajidha (talk) 17:37, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. Unless there is real doubt that countries have recognised, then I see no problem in listing them in the same way as all of the others. Bazonka (talk) 17:46, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you. I tried to was diplomatic for Nigeria, Gabon, and Côte d'Ivoire until the MFA confirm these reports of the office of First Deputy Prime Minister. I'll pray to refresh with new news also some other countries - You can also add a positive approach for the recognition from these countries Mali, Togo, Ghana, Bhutan and Libya under NTC. (http://www.zeri.info/artikulli/1/1/34577/aktivitete-te-ngjeshura-te-pacollit-ne-nju-jork/) Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 21:12, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Equatorial Guinea In the context of diplomatic activity in New York, First Deputy P.Minister of the Republic of Kosovo, met with President of Equatorial Guinea, Teodoro Obiang. During the meeting, Vice President Obiang Pacolli asked to seriously consider the recognition of Kosovo by arguing that such a decision would be in full respect of the will of the citizens of Kosovo and the ICJ advisory opinion of. President Obiang on the other hand, was very constructive in his approach in relation to the request for recognition. He also invited Pacolli in a near future to visit Equatorial Guinea. (http://www.zeri.info/artikulli/1/1/34663/pacolli-kerkon-njohje-nga-guineja-ekuatoriale/, http://www.telegrafi.com/?id=2&a=17176) Long time ago - Inner City Press asked. Anatolio Ndong Mba said Equatorial Guinea's foreign policy favors Kosovar independence. Both positions are America's. (http://www.innercitypress.com/portu1eguinea090610.html)
 * Kuwait Prime Minister of Albania Sali Berisha met with Prime Minister of Kuwait Nasser Mohammed Al-Ahmed Al-Sabah whose state is taking in consideration the recognition of Kosovo.(http://www.keshilliministrave.al/?fq=brenda&m=news&lid=15189, http://www.kuna.net.kw/NewsAgenciesPublicSite/ArticleDetails.aspx?id=2191522&Language=en)
 * Tanzania President of Tanzania is taking in consideration the recognition of Kosovo. (http://www.kosovapress.com/ks/beta/?cid=1,2,135063)
 * Thanks. I have added a few words about Equatorial Guinea and Tanzania. The Inner City Press and Kuwaiti reports have already been used in this article! Please check this before posting more stuff here. And the Zeri article doesn't mention half of the countries that you mentioned. Bazonka (talk) 20:02, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not opposed to having the three as shown as recognisers on the list, I just believe confirmation my Kosovo's MFA as reassuring. Also when/if a MFA reference becomes available it should be used. IJA (talk) 22:17, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Brunei & Eritrea
Perhaps we can use something in this article. http://www.gazetaexpress.com/?cid=1,13,63281 12.104.97.211 (talk) 21:07, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Special news.
 * Brunei Premier Thaçi has developed a meeting with the Crown Prince of the Sultanate of Brunei, Al-Muhtadee Billah, from which he received promises that Brunei would soon consider the recognition of Kosovo. (http://www.kryeministri-ks.net/?page=1,9,2350)
 * Eritrea Deputy Premier Pacolli, clearly addressed to President Isaias Afewerki demand of recognition of Kosovo as an independent and sovereign state. On the other hand, President Afewerki expressed satisfaction about the information provided. Afewerki would be very positive in the way of connection of friendship between the two countries. President of Eritrea invite Pacolli for an official visit to Eritrea. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 02:17, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I've added a few words about these countries, but I would hardly call it "special". It's just typical diplomatic rhetoric - "yes we'll consider something" doesn't really give us any clues about what they're going to decide. Bazonka (talk) 07:18, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I see that in this article for the most countries in past few months is only relevant source here is what Kosovar Ministry of Foreign affairs said, and no other, and explanation for this from Albanian authors is often "Because Serbs lie" (very logical and objective explanation, isn't it [irony] ). One source of information from only one side (which is most directly involved in issue) can not be relevant, because there is not any guarantee for objectivity, if there are not direct official statements from other countries who recognised or not Kosovo (and "Serbs, or Serb ministers are liars, and because we are right and you are wrong" is not a relevant argument for grown up man/woman with barely normal intelligence). If there is a will for real objectivity with current source of information on this article, this article should have "Disputed neutrality" badge, but I know that it won't happen, because Wikipedia long ago stopped to be encyclopedia and became a battlefield and tool for most vulgar and disgusting ethnic and political propaganda. --178.253.208.123 (talk) 11:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Well considering Serbian, Albanian, Kosovar and other Balkan media also report these recognitions... (do I need to finish the sentence?) IJA (talk) 12:35, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * To 178.253.208.123: "One source of information from only one side"? It's the only side that matters. Not because it's Kosovo, but because that is who the recognitions are sent to. Brunei isn't likely to send a note to Panama saying "we recognize Kosovo". If the Kosovo MFA reports a recognition the only country that can dispute it is the named recognizer. I'm really not sure what else you want us to add. --Khajidha (talk) 13:09, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * One source is better than no source. Politicians on both sides (wittingly or unwittingly) say things that are untrue or make predictions that turn out to be false. In this article we try to reflect both sides. In many cases, when I add something to the article I will write "It was reported that X said Y" rather than just "X said Y" - the fact that it was reported is undeniably correct, and the reader can make up their mind whether to believe the message. Only where something is totally and obviously inaccurate will we omit it, e.g. Jeremic's claim that Guinea-Bissau had never recognised, despite there being ample evidence that a note verbale had been produced. Yes there are biased editors here, but there are also a lot of neutral editors who try to keep things level. Bazonka (talk) 16:36, 22 September 2011 (UTC)


 * To IJA: Yes, but there are countries that only has reference from Kosovar ministry of foreign afairs. Albanian media also cannot be consider neutral in this issue. And on many references from serbian media if you look in articles you will notice that in sveral of references it sais "Kosovar minster stated that (some country) recognised Kosovo", but on this article that is used as relevant reference.
 * --178.253.208.123 (talk) 11:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)


 * To Khajidha: It is not need for (for example) Brunei to send note to Panama, but it is needed for Brunei MFA (or Brunei media) to give official statement also.
 * "If the Kosovo MFA reports a recognition the only country that can dispute it is the named recognizer.": as I said Kosovo MFA can't be considered as objective reference only (neither Serbian or Albanian). There were several times when Kosovo MFA "a will" of some country to recognize Kosovo inerpreted as an "official recognition" and those are two different things. If named recognizer does not dispute it, it doesn't mean in any international diplomatic practice that it automatic confirms it. With that logic Kosovo MFA can say that Mars recognized Kosovo, and it will be automatic considered a truth until Mars dispute it. In other words there can be many reasons (diplomatic or practical) why named recognizer don't dispute that (if "recognizer" is even aware of KMFA statement), and because, it is needed a statement from recognizer (or its media) and not only from Kosovo, Albania or Serbia.	 --178.253.208.123 (talk) 11:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * In some countries, particularly those with a poor internet presence, recognition will not be big news and there is no guarantee that they will publicise it, even if it's true. Yes it would be good to have a direct reference, but we can't rely on this. Bazonka (talk) 17:31, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Your Mars example fails because it would first be necessary to demonstrate that there was a civilization there to extend recognition. Confirmation from any country besides the recognizer and the recognized is ridiculous. Brunei's statement is its note of recognition to Kosovo, it does not need to announce its decision to anyone else. You are upset that people are claiming that "Serbs are liars", but your entire argument boils down to "Albanians/Kosovars are liars". --Khajidha (talk) 17:40, 22 September 2011 (UTC)


 * To Khajidha: "Mars example" was formal example, we all know that there is no life there. "Confirmation from any country besides the recognizer and the recognized is ridiculous": But I also said that, and I'm saying that statement of recognizer is more important and only neutral. You also said: "You are upset that people are claiming that "Serbs are liars", but your entire argument boils down to "Albanians/Kosovars are liars". First this is argumentum ad hominem so it is not relevant for this discussion, and second I didn't said that. I said that Kosovar, Albanian and Serbian MFA or media can't be treated as objective (nor this article), and that's not the same thing.

--178.253.208.123 (talk) 11:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You missed my point with the statement that you passed over. "Brunei's statement is its note of recognition to Kosovo, it does not need to announce its decision to anyone else." You are asking a recognizing country to tell the world at large that it recognizes another country when there is no reason for them so to do. A country recognizes another as a beginning to a relationship between them, the rest of the world is completely irrelevant to that. I don't see how your point about objectivity is relevant. Objectivity applies to opinions, the receipt of a letter of recognition is a fact. The reports from the Kosovo MFA state that they have received such letters from the named recognizers, how is their objectivity in question? --Khajidha (talk) 12:39, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Apparently Brunei is to recognize soon http://www.gazetaexpress.com/?cid=1,13,63299 12.104.97.211 (talk) 12:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Brunei recognized..... http://www.mfa-ks.net/?page=1,4,955 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.130.188.13 (talk) 14:34, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Not yet. Brunei is on its way to recognize, but it hasn't done so yet. --alchaemia (talk) 14:39, 22 September 2011 (UTC)


 * No-one has stated that "Serbs are liars", people have stated that "Jeremic is a liar" because Oman and G-B have both reconfirmed their recognitions after he stated that they have withdrawn their recognitions; not that in general he is a liar. He was wrong on this issue. Now let me ask this, is there any reason to believe that the Kosovan Ministry of Foreign is untrustworthy? Have they ever been wrong about a recognition in the past? No. MFAs regarding "International recognition of Kosovo" are the most official reference points and as I have stated media from different countries have also reported these recognitions. News from MFAs is news straight from the horses mouth. In terms of KB size, this article is already too big and we can't afford to increase the size of the article to give each point several references. Also if you look through the archives to when a certain country recognises Kosovo, many different references can be seen to prove the recognition. There is no evidence to suggest that the Kosovan MFA is being biased when reporting facts. IJA (talk) 22:21, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Promises for new recognition

 * Behgjet Pacolli stated that South Africa and 14 other states of Southern African Development Community are in the process of recognizing Kosovo. This promise has given from South Africa's President Jacob Zuma. (http://www.gazetaexpress.com/?cid=1,13,63514)
 * according Pacolli: President of Sri Lanka Mahinda Rajapaksa and Prime Minister of Bangladesh Sheikh Hasina expressed positive on a recognition of Kosovo. (http://www.kosovapress.com/ks/beta/?cid=1,7,135810)
 * Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of Republic of Kosovo Petrit Selimi said that 40 states have a positive approach for Kosovo. (http://www.zeri.info/artikulli/1/1/34905/ne-kete-mandat-e-arrijme-100-ten/)
 * President of Niger Mahamadou Issoufou has promised to lobby for Kosovo recognition from other African countries. (http://www.botasot.info/def.php?category=43&id=137071)
 * Minister Enver Hoxhaj has asked from the officials from Egypt, Pakistan, Iraq and Yemen to recognize Kosovo. During his stay in New York, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Kosovo, Enver Hoxhaj has met the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Egypt, Mohamed Kamel Amr. (http://www.gazetaexpress.com/?cid=1,13,63490)
 * Serbian opposition leader and chairman of the Serbian Renewal Movement, fromer Deputy Prime Minister of Yugoslavia and Minister of Foreign Affairs of Serbia Vuk Drašković declared that Kosovo is not Serbia. The future of Serbia is EU, not Kosovo. (http://www.zeri.info/artikulli/1/1/34949/drashkoviq-ne-kosove-nuk-ka-shtet-serb/) Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 18:46, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * President of Kosovo Atifete Jahjaga and Prime Minister of Kosovo Hashim Thaci for Voice of America confirm that are 84 states that have recognized Kosovo. (http://www.voanews.com/albanian/news/Jahjaga-130528133.html, http://www.voanews.com/albanian/news/Thaci-Do-te-shperbejme-strukturat-ilegale-dhe-kriminale-qe-veprojne-ne-veri-te-Kosoves-130288618.html) Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 1:37, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * We can't use your first article here. It only states that Pacolli is in contact with Zuma, and that there will be "multiple results" from 14 other states. Whilst these are probably SADC, this is not explicitly stated. "Multiple results" is too vague; it could mean 14 rejections.
 * The second article is practically identical to the first. Why did you post this twice? All it says is that Pacolli has had "good meetings" with Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. This is too tenuous to use.
 * The third article is unusable. Which 40 states does it refer to? This is all speculation. Remember WP:NOTFORUM.
 * Fourth article - Niger is going to lobby. So what? How can we use this information here? WP:NOTFORUM again.
 * The fifth article gives us some news about Egypt's position, but is second-hand, i.e. quoting Hoxhaj and not directly any Egyptians, and is very similar to news that we've already put into the article. Therefore I don't think it can be used. And as for the other countries, it just says that Hoxhaj is going to talk to them - utterly useless.
 * The sixth article is not relevant here. It is more appropriate for Serbia's reaction to the 2008 Kosovo declaration of independence.
 * The seventh article helps to confirm the most recent recognitions, but there's nothing we can use here.
 * The eighth article is totally irrelevant. Did you post the wrong link?
 * Thanks for your input, but in the future please try to post only information that we can use in this article. Bazonka (talk) 07:48, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Revise down number of recognizers?
In light of long absence of new recognizers after St. Lucia on webpage of Kosovo's Min. of Foreign affairs, it seems some countries may have been added to the list here of recognizers prematurely.

also see http://www.kosovothanksyou.com/news/?p=660 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.209.103.5 (talk) 21:30, 27 September 2011 (UTC)


 * kosovothanksyou.com is sponsored by serbian anti-kosovar cetniks. --89.204.136.53 (talk) 22:34, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Where on earth did you get that from, IP89? And in response to IP84, you have a good point. There is, however, more evidence showing that these countries recognised than evidence showing that they haven't, but it isn't conclusive evidence. Perhaps we should reinstate the "awaiting confirmation" text. Bazonka (talk) 22:44, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think we should change anything. What kosovothanksyou.com does is its business. The Kosovo FM is waiting for the Notes Verbale.  Their absence does not represent non-recognition. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 23:48, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Gabon point in case - 19 days and waiting? How long does this take? It should take max a week to verify/confirm a recognition. One should at least have an upper limit after which the supposed recognizer should be withdrawn if Kosovo authorities do not say anything. One should err on the side of caution. In my view the sources are losing strength with every passing day when it comes to Gabon, Nigeria and Ivory Coast. IP84 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.209.103.5 (talk • contribs)
 * hi, Kosovothanksyou explained why they removed Nigeria and Gabon from the official list - ie it is not yet official. Those two states are like Cote d'Ivoire, awaiting official confirmation. They do not want to announce as official before the MFA - it is the job of the MFA to do so. P.S. Kosovothanksyou are not antikosovar cetniks, but are just doing their job properly and not being balkanic about it. I guess it is rare in the balkans) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.106.215.170 (talk) 19:29, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I am getting more worried about our inclusion of Gabon, Ivory Coast and Nigeria in the list of recognisers. Surely an official statement would have been made by now? Bazonka (talk) 07:44, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I started this specific subject and think that the time has now come for a revision down. For the future: Some kind of safety mechanism might be built in (No confirmation from official sources within x number of days = revision) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.209.103.5 (talk) 20:41, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Sound suggestion, I agree.Tironc Puro Fare (talk) 20:45, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Here's a dude from Nigeria saying that they did recognize - Canadian Bobby (talk) 17:43, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Kosovo Parliament Speaker Krasniqi states that Kuwait would be the 85th state to recognize Kosovo:  TDL (talk) 03:54, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The Kosovo MFA still hasn't confirmed three of our listed recognitions. Therefore we should in fact revise our list (or maybe create a special category for the disputed cases as has been suggested), otherwise we end up in speculation. --DaQuirin (talk) 11:06, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The MFA is now confirming Gabon. Based on this (a late note verbale), I'd say let's wait and/or create a special category. --alchaemia (talk) 06:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see the point. All three have citations to announcements from First Deputy Prime Minister Pacolli, what more do we need? As part of the cabinet, he should know which countries have or have not recognized. --Khajidha (talk) 12:09, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * You're missing the point, Khajidha. The handwringers want to panic and wring their hands.  From the MFA website: "...meanwhile it is also expecting official confirmation for the recognition of Kosovo from Nigeria and the Ivory Coast."  - Canadian Bobby (talk) 18:11, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Funny how the amount of panic has increased dramatically the closer we get to 50% of UN members recognizing. --Khajidha (talk) 19:26, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Aaaaand the MFA has just officially confirmed both Nigeria and Cote d'Ivoire. --alchaemia (talk) 14:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

MFA of Kosovo confirmed both Nigeria and Cote d'Ivoire according to the insisting of Behgjet Pacolli for this country (http://www.mfa-ks.net/?page=2,33) Media comment (http://www.kosovatimes.net/?page=1,17,1353, http://www.koha.net/?page=1,13,73055) Dates should be coordinated with the MFA list for example 82.Federal Republic of Nigeria 12 September 2011 83.Republic of Gabon 15 September 2011 and 84.Ivory Coast 20 September 2011. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 19:42, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Oman and Guinea Bissau, out of the list
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2011&mm=09&dd=08&nav_id=76291 109.121.18.86 (talk) 01:11, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

PM of Albania Berisha asks Bhutan to recognize Kosovo
During his stay in New York, where he takes part in the proceedings of the 66th session of UN General Assembly, Prime Minister Sali Berisha met with Prime Minister of Bhutan Jigme Thinley. At the meeting they noted that recognition of Kosovo's independence is a legitimate right of its people. (http://www.keshilliministrave.al/?fq=brenda&m=news&lid=15185 | Prime Minister Official Page) Other link http://www.botasot.info/def.php?category=6&id=136712 Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 14:26, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * We can't use this information in the article. We need to know how Bhutan responded to the request. Bazonka (talk) 17:32, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Speculations of what they have spoken. Really funny, like the whole process of the separation. 109.121.18.86 (talk) 01:11, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Recognition from Kuwait
Official website of the Parliament of Kuwait = National Assembly of Kuwait, Kosovo refers to the name Republic of Kosovo. (http://www.kna.kw/clt/default_newsdetails.asp?id=13573). Tomorrow a delegation from Kuwait will visit Prishtina. At the head of the delegation is the Chairman of the National Assembly of Kuwait His Excellency Jassem Al-Kharafi. National Assembly of Kuwait considers Kosovo as a state. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 02:44, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't get that link to work, but I've found this instead: . It just says that a Kuwaiti parliamentary delegation will be visiting Kosovo. This may turn into a recognition, but I haven't seen any evidence to say that it's already happened. Bazonka (talk) 07:42, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Link worked for me. Here is the translation Google Chrome gave me: "Wrote delegates of the National Assembly - Muhammad Faisal Subaie. arrived His Excellency the President of the National Assembly Jassem Al-Kharafi and his accompanying delegation to the Albanian capital (Tirana) this evening (Thursday) coming from the Serbian capital (Belgrade), as part of an official tour also includes the Republic of Kosovo, and was received Upon arrival at the airport by Vice-President of the Albanian Parliament Adrian Tocco and Chairman of the Parliamentary Friendship Kuwait - Albanian Albanian Parliament Osman Hpittala and a member of the Albanian parliament and Kuwait's Ambassador to Albania, Najeeb Al-Bader and his staff. The delegation includes all members of Mohammed Hove Wad. Ali Al-Omair, Faisal Duwaisan" --Khajidha (talk) 14:46, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

|Al-Kharafi: Kuwait to officially recognize Kosovo soon states National Assembly Speaker of Kuwait after meeting Kosovar Prime Minister Thaçi as reported by Kuwait News Agency (KUNA). The formal diplomatic ties could be established as early as Tuesday during the visit of the Kosovar Minister of Foreign Affairs to Kuwait. A quote like this might be useful: "Kuwait and Kosovo have agreed on the need to start and prepare to lay the foundations of bilateral relations and joint cooperation in the political, economic, trade, investment and tourism spheres." Many thanks, Kosovar (talk) 15:06, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The correct link is . I have added a sentence. Bazonka (talk) 17:34, 9 October 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems that Kuwait has gone and officially recognized Kosovo. --alchaemia (talk) 07:05, 11 October 2011 (UTC).
 * Kosovar media confirmed it too, so it'd be safe to add Kuwait to the list of recognitions.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:46, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * MFA confirms. --alchaemia (talk) 13:53, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * No update in recognizer's list with flags — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.209.103.5 (talk) 06:02, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * What do you mean? I can see it in the list. Bazonka (talk) 07:09, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Iraq
Iraq will not recognise Kosovo. That is different that some of the information's we have in the article.
 * Irak ne menja stav oko Kosova Iraq does not change stance on Kosovo

__ WhiteWriter speaks 15:15, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I have added a few words. However, all they're really saying is that they haven't recognised Kosovo yet. Bazonka (talk) 16:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Which is kind of like the US saying "we still recognize Kosovo". Yeah, we know. --alchaemia (talk) 20:47, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

MFA: Kosovo’s recognition confirmed by the Republic of Gabon
Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Kosovo has received from the Republic of Gabon the verbal note on the recognition the independent and sovereign stare of Kosovo. As previously notified on September 9, 2011 by Deputy Prime Minister Behgjet Pacolli, this country has recognized the Republic of Kosovo whereas now the verbal note has reached the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Kosovo through the diplomatic mission in New York.

The verbal note confirms Gabon’s recognition of Kosovo and expresses the willingness to establish diplomatic ties between the two countries.

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Kosovo has now received verbal notes on recognition from 83 countries meanwhile it is also expecting official confirmation for the recognition of Kosovo from Nigeria and the Ivory Coast. http://www.mfa-ks.net/?page=1,4,984

Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 11:36, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Relevant International Membership flags removal due to article size
I propose we remove the flags from the sections "Relevant International membership" for recognisers and non-recognisers to reduce the KB size of the article, which is already too big. There will not be a loss of any encyclopaedic information, we will still keep note of relevant international membership (UNSC, EU, NATO and OIC etc); however the flags themselves are not necessary and do not add any value to the article. The flags just increase the article KB size. Therefore I propose the removal of the flags for "relevant international membership" to decrease the KB size of the article which is already too big. This isn't a POV suggestion, purely a technical matter. The flags are already included in the "Positions taken by intergovernmental organisations" section. Why have an extra 28 NATO flags, 27 EU flags ect, 15 UN flags or 50-ish OIC flags? Your thoughts? IJA (talk) 14:10, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Support as long as the organizational flags remain at the organization's own listing. I still think that only the P5 UNSC members need to be called out. --Khajidha (talk) 14:47, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Cheers for your support. I agree that the flags should remain in the organisation section too, but aren't needed next to countries who are in them organisations. IJA (talk) 14:53, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I support this proposal. Thanks for taking the initiative. --alchaemia (talk) 18:56, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Neutral. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 21:25, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Support - this does not remove any content from the article so we should remove them as irrelevant.--Avala (talk) 19:59, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Support Although i love the flags, we really dont need those in here. Good proposition, IJA. -- WhiteWriter speaks 21:14, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * OK, I believe I have enough consensus (as I have not received any objections) so I will perform the edit soon. I will wait until tomorrow morning/ early afternoon (European time) to give chance for any objections; however hopefully I'll be able to perform the edit aka removal of certain flags to decrease the KB size of the article. Cheers everyone for contributing to my proposal. Much appreciated. Regards IJA (talk) 22:05, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Support The flags look nice, but we really need to reduce the size of the article. Go for it. 24.82.139.5 (talk) 22:30, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Cheers IJA (talk) 22:39, 25 October 2011 (UTC)


 * OK I've removed the organisation flags under "relevant international membership" and consequently the KB size of the article is smaller. Cheers all IJA (talk) 12:37, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmmm - it doesn't look as nice, and the saving made is not significant. I would prefer it if they were put back. Bazonka (talk) 20:17, 26 October 2011 (UTC)


 * It has saved just less than 40 KB and we're trying to lower the KB size, this is a start; still needs improving though. Just think, every time our audiences load up this article page, they're loading up around 100 images (flags) less than previously. We're not here to make things look 'nice', we're here to make an encyclopaedia. I'd say this is a job well done. I'm going to look for new ways to reduce the KB size of the article without removing content. If people have suggestions, let me know. I will not however perform any moves without some sort of backing. IJA (talk) 21:33, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

MFA of Kosovo: Sovereign Military Order of Malta has recognized Kosovo two years ago.
Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Kosovo, Petrit Selimi, on Wednesday received a senior delegation of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, who is visiting for the first time Kosovo.

Wash leaders of the Knights of Malta Order, declared their full commitment to assist in advancing strongly all democratic processes in Kosovo.

After the formal recognition of independence from SMOM two years ago, senior representatives of humanitarian organizations have declared this their full readiness to henceforth help the people of Kosovo in advance of internal development, with particular emphasis on the sector Health and social assistance.

http://www.mfa-ks.net/?page=1,4,1000

Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 20:56, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
 * SMOM is not a state. It should perhaps be listed in the intergovernmental organisations section, but certainly not in the Non-UN Members section. Bazonka (talk) 20:15, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I know that SMOM is a state / entity independent. The Sovereign Military Order of Malta is headquartered in Rome, Italy, and is widely considered a sovereign subject of international law. It is a permanent non-state observer to the United Nations.  It maintains diplomatic relations with over 100 countries. Some of these are hosts of SMOM Embassies.  Why SMOM not be considered as a state? For me and for his member SMOM is a state, have a capital, have territories in Rome who are recognized as independent by the Italian government for example Palazzo Malta. It is located in Via dei Condotti 68 in Rome, Italy, a few minutes' walk from the Spanish Steps, and has been granted extraterritoriality by the Italian Government and is now the property of the Order. SMOM is a state. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 22:29, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Did you even read the article you copied most of that from? "It is a permanent NON-STATE[emphasis added by me] observer to the United Nations." --Khajidha (talk) 20:35, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
 * No but even Vatican City is non-state observer to the United Nations, Palestina non-entity observer to the United Nations. SMOM have similar status with Vatican City, have extraterritoriality of the territory, have embassies in many countries. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 22:47, 26 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmmmm SMOM is a tricky one, I'd class it as an elitist organisation rather than an entity or a state. However I do not see a problem with grouping it with Taiwan (ROC) therefore I suggesting changing the title "States which are not members of the UN" which Taiwan (ROC) is under to something which suits the both of them. If so however I suggests removing the "86 recs... 85 UN" and just having "Kosovo has received many recognitions, most notably 85 UN member states" or something along them lines because I don't believe SMOM's recognition is equal to Taiwan (ROC) recognition. IJA (talk) 21:34, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
 * According to the UN's own website, the Holy See (the international diplomatic representative of the Vatican) is a non-member state. While the SMOM is treated as an organization, similar to the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement. While to the ordinary person such as you or I SMOM seems to have many of the trappings of a state, the international community is clear in that it is not considered to be one. While its recognition should be listed, it does not belong in the list of states. I concur with the change made to incorporate ROC and SMOM into one category, as having two single entry categories looks messy. --Khajidha (talk) 11:18, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

From the CONSTITUTIONAL CHARTER OF THE SOVEREIGN MILITAR ORDER OF ST. JOHN OF JERUSALEM OF RHODES AND OF MALTA promulgated 27 June 1961, revised by the Extraordinary Chapter General, 28-30 April 1997 ARTICLE 3 Sovereignty P a r. 1 — The Order is a subject of international law and exercises sovereign functions. For me this is a state because have a territory whose sovereignty is recognized from Italy, have a flag, recognized by UN with the same status as the Vatican. In 23 Article of the CONSTITUTIONAL CHARTER of SMOM state governmental body designation is The Council Complete of State. (http://www.orderofmalta.int/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/order-of-malta-constitution.pdf). Everybody recognize SMOM as a state. SMOM has more right that the Republic of China to place there (States which are not members of the UN). Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 00:56, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think the Order extends diplomatic recognition, but it does establish diplomatic relations, as Oman and New Zealand do. Further, the MFA doesn't list it as a recognizing state. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 00:00, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Even Republic of China the MFA doesn't list it as a recognizing state. Because Republic of China, SMOM, Vatican City, Palestina are not full members at the UN. In this official statements of MFA of Kosovo cited: SMOM formally recognized Kosovo two years ago. (http://www.mfa-ks.net/?page=1,4,1000). Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 02:37, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The MFA doesn't list the Republic of China because Kosovo did not reciprocate/accept the recognition because Kosovo wants recognition from Beijing. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 18:38, 27 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok shall we have two sections for recognisers? 1) UN member states who recognise Kosovo 2) Other states and entities who recognise Kosovo. This is the best way to resolve things as we don't state whether SMOM is a country, entity or not; we can just include SMOM under that title? IJA (talk) 05:12, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * No, I don't think it's good to break up and have so much sections with a single or no lines at all. The current arrangement seems fine to me (Taiwan and SMOM under "Other states and entities").
 * About what SMOM is - you can check their own website or Wikipedia article about it. SMOM is not a state. SMOM is not an intergovernmental organization. SMOM is not a NGO. SMOM is not a subject of any state law (unlike the ICRC which is subject of Swiss law). SMOM is a sovereign entity (all other sovereign entities are states). SMOM has established diplomatic relations with many states. It's a common practice to put SMOM in a list of states - when this list is about diplomatic recognition, diplomatic relations, ambassadors, embassies, etc. (see many links here - official websites of multiple governments). SMOM does both granting of diplomatic recognitions and establishing of diplomatic relations (see which shows that Montenegro was recognized on 30.06.2006 and relations with it were established later - on 05.09.2006). In the case of Kosovo it seems that SMOM recognized it in 2009, but hasn't yet established diplomatic relations with it.
 * So, the number of Kosovo diplomatic recognitions is 87 (85 UN members, Taiwan, SMOM). Japinderum (talk) 15:12, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I totally agree with the opinion of Japinderum. Good job! 87 diplomatic recognitions (85 UN members + Republic of China + SMOM) Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 18:29, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Since everybody is so keen on this, are any of you going to contact the Order of Malta and ask them to confirm what you are assuming? - Canadian Bobby (talk) 01:04, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Google translates the MFA article as: "After the formal recognition of independence of the Order two years ago", not "by the Order". This could be a mistranslation, but if not, it seems that Kosovo recognised SMOM in 2009, not the other way round. Perhaps an Albanian speaker can confirm one way or the other. Bazonka (talk) 06:17, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Google translate provides "by", "from", "by the" or "from the" as alternative translations of the word in question. And the English word "of" in the translation can have two different interpretations anyway, at least if you only consider the clause you have provided. In the context of the entire paragraph it should be interpreted as meaning that the recognition came from SMOM. --Khajidha (talk) 11:43, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I would disagree that the Sovereign Military Order of Malta should be categorized with Taiwan, or even with the Vatican City. The former two could potentially be considered UN members (I won't go into the whole PRC-Taiwan debate, except to note that PRC allows Taiwan to operate now as part of the WHO). In the case of the Vatican City, just to make matters complicated, the Holy See is the UN obsever and maintains diplomatic relations with states, but the Vatican City is the actual sovereign state. SMOM is equivalent to the Holy See in some respects, but lacks the sovereign territory or even really sovereign control of resources, as much of what it has and uses seems to be on loan from Italy. Finally, if my understanding serves me correctly, the UN has stated that the Vatican City could become a UN member state if it wanted to (it doesn't), but no such qualification exists for the SMOM, so it is not really treated by the international community as a sovereign state. As galling as it might be to SMOM supporters, I think it should be categorized elsewhere...probably with international organizations. Considering that its relations with Kosovo were established two years ago, and this is only murkily coming to light now, it would appear that relations with the SMOM are not in the same league as even recognition by a Taiwan or even a South Ossetia. For wiki historians, this reminds me of an old archived | discussion about including movements such as Manchukuo Temporary Government, or East Turkestan, etc. SMOM is far more internationally-accepted than those organizations, but I feel like a line of text somewhere might be more appropriate than changing the numbers of recognitions and trying to shoe horn the group into the already-long and complicated lists.209.235.2.8 (talk) 14:09, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Another point: I'm not seeing any mention of Kosovo on the SMOM's | website. Seems like kind of an odd omission if they established relations with Kosovo two years ago. This line also stuck out to me: "In the international political field, the Order of Malta is neutral, impartial and non-political. Because of these characteristics, the Order can act as a mediator whenever a State requests its intervention to settle a dispute." Not to get too legal, but I see that they use the term "a State" as opposed to "another State", which would indicate to me that even though they are sovereign and maintain diplomatic relations, they do not place themselves on par with states in the international system. Konchevnik81 (talk) 14:46, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree! SMOM is a state because SMOM CONSTITUTIONAL CHARTER says that. SMOM is not a NGO. @Bazonka "Pas njohjes formale të pavarësisë së Kosovës nga ky Rend" = the recognition of Kosovo from this Order / no of this Order. This means that Kosovo recognized by SMOM. Kosovo has decided that its foreign policy not to recognize any state until Pristina without from UN. (for example South Sudan, Pristina not recognize South Sudan because Pristina is part of international subjectivity). So Enver Hoxhaj argue this issue. Hoxhaj said Pristina has no right to recognize nothing while Kosovo be part of international subjectivity. Kosovo accept any decision taken by the international community a priori. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 16:34, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Not to get too off-topic, but | here is the Constitutional Charter of the SMOM. It's a sovereign "subject of international law", but at the same time it's directly subject to the Holy See (even though it maintains diplomatic relations with the Holy See). So despite SMOM's unique history and sovereign status, it's really not the same thing as a state, so I think it should be listed elsewhere. It's like if the Jesuits maintained diplomatic relations with states. Not the same thing as state-to-state relations.Konchevnik81 (talk) 16:02, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, but the question is where is the "elsewhere"? Bazonka (talk) 05:50, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Have you looked at the links I gave at 15:12, 27 October 2011 above? There is absolutely no need to separate SMOM from the rest of entities granting diplomatic recognition. I understand that this is unusual for some people (e.g. "it's not a state, what does it do in a list where no other non-state entity is listed?"), but SMOM is an unique entity - a sovereign non-state entity (all other sovereign entities are states - with one complicated case - Holy See/Vatican City). As you can see in the links I provided above - SMOM is commonly listed among states - by the Ministries of Foreign Affairs around the world (see links above). This doesn't mean that SMOM is a state - but there simply isn't another appropriate place to list a sovereign entity conducting diplomatic relations and granting diplomatic recognitions. It would be silly to have a separate "list" of non-state sovereign entities diplomatic recognitions because there is only one such entity, SMOM.
 * Somebody above asked "why isn't Kosovo mentioned on SMOM website" - again, see the links I provided - SMOM website doesn't have a list of diplomatic recognitions - it has only a list of diplomatic relations - and these can come later than the recognition (obviously haven't been established yet with Kosovo) - again, see links I provided above. Japinderum (talk) 07:19, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi, I looked through the last two links you gave above...the Montenegro example is interesting, although their list is a few countries short by my count so it was hard to tell if they were including SMOM in the tally of "countries" recognizing them at the bottom of the list. The Kosovo MFA website is definitely not counting SMOM in its list of recognitions though, as it states 75 states as of 9 Feb, which is consistent with the list on this page. If the SMOM does not have bilateral relations with Kosovo, I'm not sure whether it's really worth including it's recognition as 1) it's not a state, and as such I'm not really sure if it can "recognize" countries and then establish relations with them in the same way that a state would, and 2) I'm not seeing any direct documentary evidence of this declaration from 2009, just the KMFA news bulletin that is slightly inconsistent with their own website info. To answer Bazonka's question, I don't think it should be in the "Positions taken by states" section, as again, it's not a state (adding the "other entities" handle to subsection 3.1.2 just contradicts and muddles this. I would stick it in section 5, "Positions taken by non state actors", and probably actually put it in the international non governmental organization section. I would say it is an NGO, as it's not operated by another state's government, but it doesn't really govern anything besides its own members activities within the organization, and its constitution has a small fudge in Article 5 that would seem to indicate that SMOM laws should be in conformity with the jurisdictions it operates in.Konchevnik81 (talk) 12:03, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Please look at all sources, especially those at the linked article about diplomatic missions to SMOM (there are many many MFA links). SMOM is not a state/country. Nobody claims that. Not SMOM, not me, nobody. So, it doesn't need to be included in tally of countries in the link there - on the contrary (but I wouldn't be surprised if it's included - it's often confused/mixed with states). What I say is that it's a sovereign entity that conducts diplomatic relations and grants diplomatic recognitions - just as all other sovereign entities (that happen to be states). There are over 100 countries with which SMOM has established diplomatic relations. And the Montenegro source is interesting, because it shows a diplomatic recognition granted beforehand. Kosovo MFA list gives recognitions by states, not all recognitions. Many of the states that don't recognize Kosovo doesn't have bilateral diplomatic relations established with it (e.g. Poland) - that doesn't mean they shouldn't be listed here - on the contrary.
 * So, 1) yes, SMOM can recognize states and establish relations with them in the same way that state would - see all the links. and 2) there is no inconsistency - SMOM is not a state. And OK, the section heading could be changed to not be so narrow as "state recognitions".
 * SMOM is not "international non governmental organization". NGOs are registered under the law of specific state. SMOM isn't. It's a sovereign entity - subject of international law in its own right. That's what sources show. Japinderum (talk) 14:14, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not disputing that the SMOM can establish relations with states, but I don't really see any evidence that it recognizes states as say, a state would recognize the existence of another state, even if it did not have relations with them. It would seem that the SMOM doesn't really exercise this kind of authority. I agree its not a traditionally-registered NGO, but considering its charter states that the Holy See has direct jurisprudence over it, and that its code of laws from when it actually controlled territory (the "Code Rohan") is valid only where it doesn't contradict "current norms", and that per the SMOM all members belong to one of 59 national associations which are, in fact, subject to state law (for example the US Federal Association states in its | bylaws that Washington, DC law takes precedence over the association's laws in case of a conflict) this seems like mostly an academic distinction. It should be listed in section 5, with NGOs or not. But the more I think about this, the more I would like to see some sort of further documentation whether to include this at all. I'm not really questioning the Kosovar MFA, but if the SMOM really made a declaration recognizing Kosovo as an independent state then there should be more supporting documentation than just a press release that mentions off-handedly that this happened two years ago and that contradicts the rest of the MFA website.
 * It's a bit of an arcane debate, I'll admit. I wouldn't really be so against it if SMOM didn't figure in the bold, numbered recognitions in the lead and muddy up the recognizing states list. For the record, I checked a number of foreign ministry websites in countries that the SMOM has diplomatic relations with: Brazil, Costa Rica, Italy, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Macedonia, Montenegro, Russia and Timor-Leste. Of these, only Costa Rica lists SMOM along with states that it maintains diplomatic relations with. Montenegro and Italy lump it with Vatican City/Holy See, and the rest don't even bother to mention their relations with the Order. So a very mixed bag, and not a whole lot of precedence for treating SMOM in a list with states.Konchevnik81 (talk) 15:21, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Anyhow, just to clear this whole thing up I've written to the Order's office/Magistral Palace in Rome regarding their official stance on Kosovo, so I will happily share any response I get.Konchevnik81 (talk) 15:31, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's nice to get confirmation on this. Japinderum (talk) 17:42, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you may be interested in this.
 * evidence that it recognizes states as say, a state would recognize the existence of another state, even if it did not have relations with them. - which shows that Montenegro was recognized on 30.06.2006 and relations with it were established later - on 05.09.2006
 * about the relationship with the Holy See - it's not that SMOM is subsidiary of the Holy See, under its jurisprudence or something like that. Holy See has influence as far as religious activities are concerned. Otherwise SMOM is entirely independent and deals with the Holy See just as with any other sovereign entity/state. (art.4, paragraph1,5,6) The Kosovo recognition is an example of this - SMOM recognized Kosovo, but Holy See doesn't recognize it.
 * SMOM associations in various states (including in the USA that doesn't have diplomatic relations with SMOM) may be locally registered as NGOs, private associations, or whatever local law acceptable form of organization (owned by "the foreign SMOM" or by their local members), their members remain citizens of whatever states they are citizens, etc. But there is a distinct SMOM citizenship (separate from any state citizenship) that a few of its top officials have (see infobox at SMOM article) and SMOM passport. Also, please don't confuse SMOM associations with the SMOM itself.
 * I don't see how adding Taiwan (a state recognized only by a minority of the international community) to the total number of recognitions and to the list of recognitions is OK, but adding SMOM (a sovereign entity with sizeable if not universal international recognition) is not OK. On the contrary.
 * Some MFAs have list of diplomatic relations with states or list of diplomatic recognitions by states (it should not be expected SMOM to be listed in either one of those). Some MFAs doesn't have any such lists at all (they may have some "relations with ..." sections where they list only their more important partners, but not all). I think the examples you give are exactly such. Especially considering the following:
 * nobody does lump it with Vatican City/Holy See - it's a common practice for ambassadors to be accredited to multiple neighboring states - few states have the financial resources to keep embassy in each and every capital around the world. That's why the Mexican ambassador to Slovenia may be also accredited to Croatia. That doesn't mean that Croatia is lumped with Slovenia - it simply means that the Mexico embassy in Slovenia has "free capacity" to deal also with relations with Croatia. That's why many states accredit their ambassadors to the Holy See, Italy or UN Rome office also to SMOM and San Marino. (see here) This doesn't mean that San Marino and SMOM are somehow subordinated to the Holy See, Italy or the UN Rome office.
 * there is much precedence for treating SMOM in a list with states - see sources here and check MFAs of these and these. About the states you mention - Brazil, Costa Rica, Italy, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Macedonia, Montenegro, Russia and Timor-Leste (no SMOM ambassador accredited yet to Timor-Lest, no Timor-Leste ambassador accredited yet to SMOM; also, Timor-Leste MFA website doesn't have a list of diplomatic relations - only lists of embassies/ambassadors). (most of these links are taken from MFAs list of embassies - as you can imagine such lists are mainly about states; also most of the links are about embassies "of state X to SMOM" - where the ambassador is also accredited to Italy, Holy See, UN Rome office, etc.; if you check for embassies "of SMOM in state X" you will find even more sources) Japinderum (talk) 17:42, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Japinderum: I do not dispute what you say. I would still downgrade the importance of SMOM and lump it with international organizations. It does have diplomatic relations with the Holy See, but as you can see from the rest of the charter the Holy See still has direct jurisprudence over the order (it is a Catholic order, after all). Furthermore, in reality the sovereign order is made up of national associations organized according to national law codes. Taiwan controls territory and a population of citizens, so if anything it is in the same category as Kosovo, while the SMOM is more of a uniquely-chartered organization under international law. There is some precedence for treating relations with the SMOM as similar to relations with a state, but this seems to vary state by state. Nevertheless: can we find any further documentation that the SMOM recognized Kosovo as an independent state in 2009? Again, I will report if I hear anything direct. Best,209.6.89.252 (talk) 00:21, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, of course it would be nice to have additional confirmation of the 2009 recognition (with a date and announcement preferably). What I argue is that SMOM is not subordinate to the Holy See. Andorra head of state is a bishop appointed by the Holy See, but we don't propose removing Andorra from various lists. And again - the national associations in foreign states should be differentiated from the SMOM itself. While I agree that SMOM recognition as equal partner (sovereign entity; subject of international law in its own right) is not universal (France doesn't recognize it as such) - at the same time it's quite wide (SMOM has established full diplomatic relations with more than half of the international community. Of the rest we have sources for only a few who maybe don't recognize it - those that don't recognize its passport/that have only official and no diplomatic relations with it - and of them only France is confirmed to not recognize it). Recognition of SMOM is much more of a common practice than the recognition of Taiwan or even Kosovo for the time being. The only odd thing about it is its unique status of a non-territorial/non-state sovereign entity.
 * Anyway, let's see what they will respond to your request. Japinderum (talk) 06:52, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

MFA of Kosovo translate in English this news: Deputy Prime Minister Selimi received in a meeting Malta’s Order of Templars Pristina, 26 October, 2011 – The Deputy Minister of the Republic of Kosovo, Petrit Selimi received in a meeting on Wednesday a senior delegation of Malta’s Order of Templars which is visiting Kosovo for the first time. Deputy Minister Selimi informed the senior leaders of the Order on the permanent progress of the Republic of Kosovo in all aspects as well as the mid-term and long-term needs of the state of Kosovo towards all comprehensive development. Senior officials of Malta’s Order of Templars declared their full dedication in powerfully assisting the advancement of all democratic processes of Kosovo. Following this Order’s formal recognition of Kosovo’s independence two years ago etc. (http://www.mfa-ks.net/?page=2,4,1000) Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 17:51, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Good catch. I suggest the following renaming of headers - to avoid any confusion about "SMOM is a state": . Japinderum (talk) 17:42, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Our options
To summarise - the options we have are as follows: I don't think that Option 1 will be acceptable to anyone. Option 2 kind of works, but we'd be putting it in a subsection of Positions taken by states, and since SMOM isn't actually a state, then this isn't quite right. Option 3 addresses this issue, but I am averse to restructuring the article just to cater for - let's be honest here - a relatively unimportant organisation. We'd need to be careful that we don't make the wording overly convoluted. Option 4 isn't really appropriate because SMOM isn't inter-governmental. I think Option 5 would work, but if we were to choose this, then should we count the recognition in the summary at the top of the page? My feelings about Option 6 are similar to those for Option 3 - it seems a bit over-the-top. And in any case, what would the new section be called, and where would it go? Any other suggestions? Bazonka (talk) 08:03, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) Ignore SMOM.
 * 2) Include it under Other states and entities, leaving section headings unchanged.
 * 3) Include it under Other states and entities, changing section headings.
 * 4) Include it under Positions taken by intergovernmental organisations.
 * 5) Include it under International non-governmental organisations.
 * 6) Make a new section for it.
 * One thought: could SMOM be discussed immediately under the header for section 5: "Positions Taken by Non-state Actors"? Then SMOM could be recognized as something of a unique case, without having to lump it in to one of the subcategories in Section 5 (Options 4 and 5). Is it possible to add a one list box without a subcategory? Or would this look too messy?Konchevnik81 (talk) 14:48, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm voting for "Ignore SMOM." - Canadian Bobby (talk) 15:03, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Never! "Ignore SMOM" I believe this is a joke. :) Why ignore SMOM? Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 16:30, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not a joke. Ignore the SMOM.  There seems to be a sort of desperation implicit in this struggle to get it onto the list.  More real recognitions will come.  We don't need to waste time on this. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 15:56, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Unacceptable, for Kosovo the Order of Malta is very important. Order of Malta has more diplomatic power than Albania, FYROM and Montenegro together. Order of Malta is very important in the international arena. The Order helped thousands of Albanians, Turks, Roma and Bosnian from Serb genocide in Kosovo. You can see something during STATE VISIT OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE ALBANIAN REPUBLIC Bamir Topi TO THE SOVEREIGN ORDER. (http://www.orderofmalta.int/notizie/40737/visita-di-stato-del-presidente-della-repubblica-di-albania-al-sovrano-ordine/) I agree that Kosovo will come other recognition but it has its importance. Irvi Hyka (talk • contribs) 19:55, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * There's that desperation I was referring to. - Canadian Bobby (talk) 22:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Canadian Bobby, the Kosovo MFA doesn't ignore SMOM. The MFAs of over 100 other states also don't ignore it. On the contrary - all of these devote resources to conduct diplomatic relations with it, to accredit ambassadors, to meet SMOM officials, etc. - just as they devote resources to have relations with and to meet officials from various foreign states around the world. Why should we ignore it? Simply because it doesn't fit in our layman misconception that states (governing organizations controlling permanently populated territory) are the only sovereign entities that practice diplomacy (recognition, relations, etc.) and constitute the international community? I understand that since SMOM is the unique sovereign entity not claiming any territory many laymans, like us here, are perplexed about what it actually is. But that's why we don't do OR, but use reliable sources - and the multiple sources in the above section show that SMOM is regular member of the international community - practicing diplomatic recognitions, diplomatic relations, etc. Japinderum (talk) 08:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Option 1 doesn't work, because we can't ignore a notable information (directly related to the topic of the article - diplomatic recognition of Kosovo) from reliable source (that we use for many pieces of the article already). Options 4 and 5 don't work, because SMOM is neither an intergovernmental organization, nor an international non-governmental organization. In fact it has a government itself - just as territorial sovereign entities (states) do. Option6 - I don't like this (as unnecessary burdening the article with additional sections), but if we do this the section should be 3.1.3 or 3.1.2 (e.g. either after "states non-members of the UN" or after "states members of the UN" - depending on whether you think recognition by Taiwan and Palestine is more or less notable than recognition by SMOM). Option2 is not perfect either, but can remain if we don't come with anything better.
 * One possible solution - to have one single table with all diplomatic recognitions (from UN member states, from non-members of the UN). The figure of UN recognizers is already bolded in the text in the head - for those that keep an eye on this number.


 * Option3 also seems very good - see - it can be implemented with minimal changes to the headings and no changes to any text or tables (no adding/deleting of tables, etc.) Japinderum (talk) 08:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I think options 2 and 3 are best because I believe SMOM's recognition to be notable even if it is a rather unimportant recognition. IJA (talk) 20:38, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, So are there any objections to these changes? Japinderum (talk) 08:38, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Eh, just mine, but I guess I'm alone in this :). The changes are at least clearer. Anyway, has anyone found a more direct source for the recognition? Maybe something with a date? No word from the Magistral Palace yet...Konchevnik81 (talk) 14:41, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I object, but mostly due to the poor grammar: "Diplomatic recognition of Kosovo as an independent state" would be much better. Also, should we be referring to "diplomatic recognition", or just "recognition"? There may be some subtle difference, although I'm not sure if that's the case. Wouldn't just "Recognition of Kosovo as independent" and "No recognition of Kosovo as independent" be much simpler and better? Bazonka (talk) 17:20, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I like the idea, but also find the phrasing a little lacking. Bazonka's suggestions of minor changes sound good to me. --Khajidha (talk) 23:19, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with "an" (and other grammatical/spelling corrections, if needed). But I think it's better to keep "diplomatic recognition". Simply "recognition" is less specific and nearing "support", "opinion" and similar statements and may lead to too early inclusion of states, etc. issues similar to this below. Japinderum (talk) 08:33, 10 November 2011 (UTC)