Talk:Internment of Japanese Americans/Archive 3

Suggestion: Add to Magic (cryptography)
In all seriousness, the article Magic (cryptography) is awfully thin on the actual contents of the MAGIC decrypts. Whether or not they are relevant to the internment, there is much to be done to document the MAGIC program in its own article. With that article fleshed out, it should be much clearer how the decrypts pertain to the internment, and then appropriate references can be added. If nothing else, Magic (cryptography) would be a much less contentious article in which to hash out sone of these issues, since internment itself would be a secondary issue (instead of the primary issue that it is, appropriately, on Japanese American internment). I'd take a stab at it myself, but there are several others much better informed on the topic than I am. --ishu 03:54, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

MAGIC and the evacuation are intertwined and MAGIC needs to be mentioned in any article on the evacuation. I agree that more needs to be provided on the history of the MAGIC program. I am always amazed at how the reparations activists attempt to belittle the MAGIC program. The best Greg Robinson could rebut is "Show me the document written by FDR that says he signed 9066 based on MAGIC". That's a flimsy response that begs the response, "Show me the document signed by FDR that states the evacuation was based on racism, hysteria and lack of political will".

P.S. Feel free to post my IP address. I have an account but don't need to log in to post here. It should be obvious from the tone who is writing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.207.79.202 (talk • contribs) 08:13 14 July 2006


 * I should have been clearer. The third sentence of my post should have read:  "With Magic (cryptography) fleshed out, it should be much clearer how the decrypts pertain to the internment, and then appropriate references can be added to Japanese American internment."
 * For redundancy: I'm not suggesting that MAGIC discussion be confined to its own article.  I've seen a lot of arguments posted here that are not part of Magic (cryptography).  The Magic article could describe in greater detail what was in the communiques, especially with respect to attempts by the Japanese govt/military to infiltrate and leverage Issei and Nisei in the US.
 * The entirety of the relevant section in Magic (cryptography) is as follows:
 * One aspect of Magic remains controversial to this day - the amount of involvement, if any, the intercepts played in the issuing of United States Executive Order 9066, which lead to the internment of Japanese Americans living on the US West Coast. Those defending the internment, most notably author Michelle Malkin, point to Magic intercepts as being justification for the internment. The rationale for this is that several Magic intercepts discuss the development of a spy ring among Japanese Americans by the Japanese consulates, showing that the Japanese American community was an espionage risk.


 * Those in opposition point out that:


 * the commanding officer who executed the internment, Lt. Gen. J. L. DeWitt, was not on the Magic intercept list,
 * his superior, Secretary of War Henry Stimson, was on the intercept list, and
 * Stimson requested justification for the internment from DeWitt (if Magic intercepts provided justification, why ask DeWitt for further justification?).
 * The issue has been inflamed recently due to the release of Malkin's recent book, In Defense Of Internment, in which the Magic intercepts play a major role in the defense of her thesis.
 * There is much about the program in the article that I'm just not qualified to judge. As it stands now, the article shows that the program was highly secret, and whatever was contained in the actual messages, it's far from clear (again, from the Magic article) that FDR, Stimson, DeWitt, and other key decision makers (a) had access to definitive information from Magic that supported EO9066; (b) were presented with convincing summaries of Magic that supported EO9066; or (c) were presented with any consequential information derived from Magic to support EO9066.
 * Way back, User:Topnife wrote:
 * I have read many of the MAGIC cables (secretly decrypted and translated diplomatic communications of Imperial Japan with its embassies and consulates). It's pretty clear that there were instructions to recruit espionage agents, especially among Americans of Japanese ethnicity, who Japan considered to be "Japanese" - following the strong racial policies of Japan. Several cables also mention successful recruiting of agents, although they do not usually name names.
 * I haven't read any of the cables, and I don't have David Lowman's oft-cited book. However, if might help if we could have a discussion (wherever) regarding:
 * How many of the cables discussed recruitment of agents?
 * How extensive and successful were these efforts--according to the cables?
 * How extensive and successful was recruitment--according to US analysts during WWII?
 * How extensive and successful was recruitment--according to contemporary analysis?
 * The relevance of Magic keeps coming up on this Talk page. If we can get answers to some of these questions, I hope that'll go a long way toward establishing their relevance.  Even if it doesn't settle that question, it should be a contribution to Japanese American internment and Magic (cryptography) --ishu 20:56, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

1. Very few out of the thousands of intercepts. You can find copies on the internet right here of the most damning intercepts.



How can one read these intercepts and then say MAGIC has no relevence?


 * I can find proof on the Internet that Elvis is driving a taxi in Minneapolis. I can also mention that MAGIC only worked because of NISEI translators and analysts in the MIS.

2. Extensive enough to have intelligence plants already in place within the army and in the defense industry, based on Japan's own admission in the MAGIC intercepts.


 * So, where are all the convictions? The govt chose to intern rather than convice.


 * They chose to intern 5-year-old girls rather than convict adult spies? That sounds as stupid as "I didn't inhale!"  However, if you can provide the reference you're citing, I'd like to look into that myself. 64.122.31.130 02:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

3. Pretty succesful and that's not surprising as the the majority of adults were issei and viewed themselves as Japanese first and Americans second - if at all.


 * Actually, the majority of adults were NISEI, but why let the facts get in the way or a good fable? Oh, and let's not forget those thousands of highly-trained midgets who convinced everyone that they were 8-year-old schoolgirls.  Good thing we rounded all of them up and sent them to Utah! That's just wrong. The adults were issei. The average nisei age was 15 years. The govt chose to keep families together. There was not question about evacuation the issei. They were enemy aliens.


 * If the adults were issei, as you claim, then this is the only case in history of the US Army drafting enemy aliens for combat. Please cite your source for the claim that the average age of Nisei was 15.  Considering the number of Nisei who were in the Army and Territorial units PRIOR to the Oahu attack, this doesn't seem likely. 64.122.31.130 02:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * But let's think about the Issei for a moment. Why would they think of themselves as Americans, when the American government denied them so many rights and wouldn't permit them to BECOME Americans?  It's really pretty stupid to deny someone membership in a club, then complain that they don't wave the club's banner. To say that issei were falling over themselves to become Americans in a myth. Even after 1952 when it became legal to do so and 1960 only 32% did so. Besides if they were such "victims of racism" how does this justify not evaucating them? If anything their hatred at "being victims" would make them more of a security threat.


 * You're sure good at throwing numbers around. Lessee, 32% in 8 years . . .that's one in three, choosing to become citizens of a country which had imprisoned and bankrupted their families for the crime of being Asian . . .I dunno about you, but that seems like a pretty high number to me.  But I admire your circular logic, that interning them made them more of a security threat, so it was right to intern them because they were a security threat. 64.122.31.130 02:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Ringle's two reports deal with the extent of the problem. I am unable to locate them online but they are provided in their entirety in Lowman' book. The first is not official ONI, the second is. During the 1980s cases, the reparations lawyers submitted as evidence the first report as official ONI when it was not.

There is plenty of other information available here. Just peruse the site.



Even by 1941 Japan had a long history of total intelligence using front organizations and intelligence officers posing as civilians. This was well known to American intelligence, military and civilian.


 * You say "American intelligence" as if it really meant anything in 1940. The majority of our intel was developed by the Brits.

4. Well that depends on who you talk to. The American far left as made this history their sacred cow so you'll not find many scholars today who are willing to take a good look at the 100% truth. This is what happens when history becomes politicized. Remember that the reparations activists version of this history is far less a product of scholarship than it is a product of ethnic activism and that makes all the difference. Their's is a history of an ethnic activist group lobbying politicians to make an "official" history that is now being funded with taxpayer dollars to "re-educate" the American people. It only got this far because by and large the American people don't really care about this history and apathetically let the movement build and succeed throughout the 1970s and 1980s. Today, any information that is contrary to the activist revision is belittled, ignored or considered "racist". The funding is going to the activist backed scholars based on a law passed by polticians. It's a pretty sad state of affairs for scholars in general.


 * I'll put my "non-liberal" credentials up against yours any day. But, to paraphrase Patton the Elder, I am perhaps committing the greatest heresy by discussing military matters from the standpoint of a military science expert.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.207.79.202 (talk • contribs) 17:40, 14 July 2006, with unsigned indented responses by 64.122.31.130 (talk • contribs) 19:35, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

"I can find proof on the Internet that Elvis is driving a taxi in Minneapolis. I can also mention that MAGIC only worked because of NISEI translators and analysts in the MIS." 1. And you would be totally wrong on both counts. Nisei translators worked in the field and had no knowledge of the MAGIC program for security reasons.


 * Then you'd better tell the guys I spoke with last Saturday afternoon, who were in the MIS (one before it was moved away from Cressy Field). They worked with MAGICs all through the war.  They knew what they were, but not how they had been obtained.

'''They didn't touch MAGIC. They worked as translators and interegators in the Pacific Theatre. They probably also told you they liberated Dachau and won the whole war single handedly. Did they mention Gen, Willoughby? That's another myth.'''


 * Look, you think what you think, and no amount of the truth will change your mind, so I'm going to stop trying. I just feel sorry for you, you're missing one of the greatest stories of American history because you are locked into your opinion.  64.122.31.130 02:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

So, where are all the convictions?

2. There were no convictions but not because there wasn't espionage activity. Those suspected were simply sent to internment -- not relocation -- camps. For example, in Hawaii, three Japanese Americans on Niihau aided a downed Imperial Navy aviator to the point where they attempted to kill some of their Hawaiian neighbors. One of the Japanese was killed in a struggle and the other two surrendered to authorities. (This "Niihau Incident" is considered the trigger that largely justified the relocation order.)


 * Oh, come on, they locked up 110 THOUSAND "spies" and couldn't get ONE conviction? 68.178.65.194 04:04, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

'''Locked up? Try evacuated from the West Coast. Typical reparations pov bomb thrower....'''


 * I dunno what you call it where you're from, but here on the planet with the BLUE sky, we call being put behind barbed wire and locked gates being "locked up." 64.122.31.130 02:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

In another case, AJA Richard Kotoshirodo actively aided Japanese spies keeping track of ship movements in Pearl Harbor. Until martial law, however, watching ships from public property was not a crime. Another AJA was shot in Kaneohe when he fled after being discovered signaling a Japanese submarine.

Interning those involved solved the immediate problem and succeeded in keeping sensitive intelligence from being revealed in civilian courts.

As helpful as the MAGIC program was, it failed to provide the names and addresses of those involved hence the need to evacuate all ethnic Japanese.


 * Okay, so when I think that you've committed a crime, I should put your whole family and all of your friends behind barbed wire. That's certainly a lot more convenient than proving anything.  And the heck with that pesky "Constitution" thing that gets in the way. 64.122.31.130 02:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

'''You say "American intelligence" as if it really meant anything in 1940. The majority of our intel was developed by the Brits.'''

3. You must be referring to Enigma not MAGIC. American cryptoanalytical intelligence goes back to MI-8 in WW1 and intelligence specifically against Japan to around 1920. This work is one reason America and Britian succesfully neogotiated for Japan to reuduce her overall naval tonnage at the Washington Conference. I suggest you do a read on Herbert Yardley.


 * No, I'm taking about ALL American intelligence assets of the time. Go look up the history of ONI.  Or maybe the OSS, known as "Oh, So Social" to the Brits.  Even the ITALIANS had better a intel package than we had in 1942. 68.178.65.194 04:04, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Not against the Japanese.


 * Yeah, right, so explain how they were able to plan and execute a surprise attack. That's how Japanese naval officers were able to visit Oahu, map and photorecon from ground, sea and even air before the attack. 64.122.31.130 02:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

'''I'll put my "non-liberal" credentials up against yours any day. But, to paraphrase Patton the Elder, I am perhaps committing the greatest heresy by discussing military matters from the standpoint of a military science expert.'''

4. That's fine. Let's debate but at least ensure your facts are correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.207.79.202 (talk • contribs) 20:01, 14 July 2006, with unsigned indented comments inserted by 68.178.65.194 (talk • contribs) on 04:04, 15 July 2006


 * I'm a lot more certain of mine than I am of yours. I've talked to a number of the people on each side of the issue over the last 25 years.  And I came to the internment issue from the pro-internment standpoint!  Once I started seriously studying it, it became obvious that it was a really stupid idea and a really bad thing to do.  But go do this -- look up the "Exterminating Order" issued by Missouri governor Boggs.  Try to figure out what he was thinking, and why he signed it, then look up the history around it.  Decide whether the action taken fit the situation.  When you look at the internment of the Nikkei, you see that it was not only the wrong thing to do, but it doesn't even make sense within the context of the accusations and fears.  The internment was socio-political, and rooted decades earlier.  68.178.65.194 04:04, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Suffice to say Boggs didn't have access to MAGIC intelligence.


 * Okay. FDR had access to MAGIC intel.  FDR signed the order authorizing Nisei re-entry into the Armed Forces, first the 100th then the 442nd, BEFORE THE NIKKEI WERE SENT TO THE CAMPS.  If they were all spies and needed to be "excluded," then why did he let them into the Army?  Make up your mind, either there was a valid reason based on MAGIC or there was not.  Critic-at-Arms 19:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

'''That's not true. Nisei regiments were't organized until 1943. As Bendetsen says in his interview available at the Truman Library:'''


 * Then they are even more incredible than I had suspected, when you consider that the first group of them arrived in Oakland in JUNE 1942! At least, that's what the US Army says.  But what do they know . . ? 64.122.31.130 02:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I think I should introduce at this point for the first time some reference to the establishment of the famous regimental combat team of Japanese-Americans. This idea was born during discussions which I had initiated and held with Mr. McCloy, and he in turn with General Marshall long before I left for England. I had a very deep conviction that the Army should make use of the opportunity to find individuals who wished to give a good account of themselves not only as interpreters for the forces in the Pacific. This was already underway. I was convinced however that an opportunity should be extended to volunteers among the Japanese-American evacuees (the Nisei), to join one of more organized combat units to take part in the campaign in Europe.

HESS: Did that plan meet very much opposition initially?

BENDETSEN: No, I do not believe that it encountered any significant opposition. It was carefully considered. Many problems could have arisen if the selection process had been faulty or inept.

A regimental combat team composed of such volunteers had already been recruited and organized and was undergoing intensive training before I returned from England. Nevertheless, while I was at Tule Lake, I conferred with the leaders of the militants and advised them that if they wished for a chance to prove themselves and volunteer for special service if another combat team were to be organized, I would recommend them for consideration. A second group was not organized but some of the militants did serve as interpreters overseas and as instructors at the Army Language School successfully.

HESS: What was their reaction?

BENDETSEN: Very good.

HESS: When the units were first proposed, what was the reception of the Japanese at that time, the men who ultimately became members of those units?

BENDETSEN: Well, it varied. However, those who ultimately went through the process were very enthusiastic about the opportunity from the beginning.

HESS: They saw it as an opportunity to prove their citizenship....

'''Even so only between 5% and 7% volunteered. The other 93%-95% chose to sit the war out.'''

Using Boggs as an example of America's political and military leaders who were actually repsonsible for the security of the nation early on in a war for survival when America was losing is bad history.

Americans are waking up to that fact and now the reparations movement has a great big hole out of which they must crawl.

Admittedly I feel sympathy for the average Japanese American who's reputation has been damaged why the far left ethnic activists. They succeded in passing the money bill, but at what price? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.207.79.202 (talk • contribs) 23:02, 14 July 2006


 * I sometimes find it hard to beleive that people like you exist, but then I remember the Soviet Union and its prime newspaper, "Pravda" ("Truth"). Truth is what you say it is, and no proof to the contrary is valid.  And you call other people "fanatical"!  Critic-at-Arms 19:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Pffftt....cut with the rhetoric and start providing some facts.


 * The problem is that you cherry-pick your facts, then look at them through the eyes of bigotry. 64.122.31.130 02:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I missed this thread earlier.  The section about finding Elvis online is ridiculous and uncivil.   As far as I know MAGIC was a US program, far more sophisticated than Enigma.   I don't think the British had any significant intel on Japan.  Sure didn't warn the US about Pearl Harbor.   Anyway, I don't think locking up EVERYONE was fair, but I am tired of the cover-up efforts in the media.   After years of school and documentaries and even some internet perusing I am still learning about this issue.   Most Americans probably don't know about the various treasons that occurred, Niihau, the Tule lake protests, the balloon bombs, the submarine off Santa Barbara, etc. Justforasecond 18:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Uh . . .Mr Expert . . ? Enigma wasn't a program, it was a mechanical cypher system.  Enigma machines were commercially available in the 1930s.  Military and diplomatic machines were slightly more complex in design than the commercial machines, which made them significantly more complex in operation. 64.122.31.130 02:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

'''They weren't locked up. Thousands left the Relocation Centers to continue their lives. Thousands left the west coast when the government voluntarily asked them to do so. The camps were meant as temporary points until evacuees could get the act together and move on. Again, they were evacuated off the military zones of the West Coast with the option of leaving the camps. I mentioned all this in my contributions to the article that were subsiquently deleted.'''


 * If they weren't locked up, then why did they live in horse stables, behind barbed wire, guarded by men carrying machineguns and why was James Wakasa shot? 64.122.31.130 02:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

References to Magic (cryptography)
I found a reference that contains some books "on espionage and intelligence, based chiefly on research in the records of the National Archives." I've listed those that seem relevant to this topic below. Feel free to add additional books. Please put additions below my list, so that we can keep a clear sense of who added which references.

Aldrich, Richard J. Intelligence and the war against Japan: Britain, America and the politics of secret service. Cambridge; New York: Cambridge University Press, 2000. xxiv, 500 p. D 810 S7 A482 2000

Boyd, Carl. Hitler's Japanese confidant: General Oshima Hiroshi and MAGIC intelligence, 1941-1945. Lawrence, Kan.: University Press of Kansas, c1993. xviii,271 p. D 810 C88 B69 1993

Clark, Ronald William. The man who broke Purple: the life of Colonel William F. Friedman, who deciphered the Japanese code in World War II. Boston: Little, Brown, c1977. ix, 271 p. UB 290 C5

Drea, Edward J. MacArthur's ULTRA: codebreaking and the war against Japan, 1942-1945. Lawrence, Kan.: University Press of Kansas, c1992. xv, 296 p. D 767 D66 1991

Lewin, Ronald. The American magic: codes, ciphers, and the defeat of Japan. New York: Farrar Straus Giroux, c1982. xv, 332 p., [16] p. of plates. D 810 C88 L48 1982

Lowman, David D. Magic: the untold story of U.S. intelligence and the evacuation of Japanese residents from the West Coast during WW II. [Utah]: Athena Press, 2001. viii, 391 p. D 810 S7 L68 2001

MacEachin, Douglas J. The final months of the war with Japan: Signals Intelligence, U.S. invasion planning, and the A-Bomb decision. [Langley, Va?]: Center for the Study of Intelligence, 1998. v, 525 p. D 769.2 M33 1998

Matthews, Tony. Shadows dancing: Japanese espionage against the West, 1939-1945. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1994. 240 p., [4] p. of plates. D 810 S7 M337 1994

Matthias, Willard C. America's strategic blunders: intelligence analysis and national security policy, 1936-1991. University Park: Pennsylvania State University Press, c2001. 367 p. JK 468 I6 M42 2001

Miller, Edward S. War Plan Orange: the U.S. strategy to defeat Japan, 1897-1945. Annapolis, Md.: Naval Institute Press, c1991. xxi, 509, [16] p. of plates. VA 50 M53 1991

Prados, John. Combined fleet decoded: the secret history of American intelligence and the Japanese Navy in World War II. New York: Random House, c1995. xxvi, 832 p., [16] p. of plates. D 810 C88 P73 1995

Smith, Michael. The emperor's codes: the breaking of Japan's secret ciphers. New York: Arcade Pub., 2001. 323 p. D 810 C88 S656 2001

Stephan, John J. Hawaii under the rising sun: Japan's plans for conquest after Pearl Harbor. Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press, c1984. xii, 228 p. D 767.92 S835 1984

United States. Congress. House. Committee on the Judiciary. Subcommittee on Administrative Law and Governmental Relations. Japanese-American and Aleutian wartime relocation: hearings before the Subcommittee on Administrative Law and Governmental Relations of the Committee on the Judiciary, House of Representatives, Ninety-eighth Congress, second session, on H.R. 3387, H.R. 4110, and H.R. 4322 ... June 20, 21, 27, and September 12, 1984. Washington: U.S. G.P.O., 1985. iv, 989 p. D 769.8 A6 U53 1985

--ishu 15:25, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps semiprotection would have been adequate?
Most of the reverted edits were from a particular IP address. &mdash; Arthur Rubin | (talk) 21:58, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course they were. That's me. Why is that relevent? If I have the knowledge to contribute to the article I should be able to do so.

I see the article is back up for all to edit. Let's try and edit the thing to everybody's liking to avoid a lock out.


 * I disagree. Let's try and resolve disputes here rather than through editing to avoid a lock out. --Ogthor 23:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

If you want to move the Tule Lake photo from the top to another area, please include the tag and the link to the letter to Interior Secretart Ickes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.207.79.202 (talk • contribs)

Is it about time to maybe put in a Request for Comment? -- H·G (words/works) 00:11, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No, this is an article content dispute, not a conduct dispute. There are enough contributors here already that an RfC probably isn't necessary.  Justforasecond 01:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

BTW if any of you are in favor of a category about troubled child actors (troubled=alcohol/drug abuse, crime, pr0n), please vote in the poll at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_July_17#Category:Troubled_former_child_stars

Justforasecond 02:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well I see we're back to the tit-for-tat monkey business regarding this article. Just cite your sources pro-reparations pov editors....

Reparations pov activist "Will Beback" has attmpted to block my IP address and keep me from posting or editing. Nice form of historical debate Will. You can't debate the history so you attempt to ban people. What a load of crap!


 * The protection placed on this article is not an attempt to ban anyone, as I understand it. It is an attempt to move debate to this page, where it can hopefully be resolved, rather than engaging in an editing war in the article itself.
 * Further, I believe it is doubtful whether "historical debate" should even be occuring. What should be occuring is perhaps a debate on reliability of sources. Repeated name-calling often has the opposite of the intended effect within these sorts of discussions.
 * I have attempted to engage you in an effort to help remove POV from this article, since you are clearly concerned about it. To ensure impartiality in this effort, I have not made note of who contributed which sections within the article - I have instead pointed out sections which "jump out" at me as in need of fixing. While I understand your passion in this matter, making drastic changes to the article without consulting other interested parties, especially in the context of a controversial topic such as this one, is inflammatory and leads to the sort of protection that exists on this article now.
 * You have heretofore made some excellent suggestions on topical candidates for addition or revision for this article, including the relevance of the CLPEF and the Japanese contribution to the events leading to internment. Don't ruin your efforts at helping to craft a NPOV article by interpreting every disagreement as a personal attack on you or your point of view. Disagreements are a natural part of the editing process and are an effort to achieve some form of consensus.--Ogthor 18:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, Ogthor if that were the case then why has my IP been banned, forcing me to spoof my IP just so I can comment here? This is not an attempt to resolve anything in the eyes of the opposition. It is an attempt to censure historically relevent and accurate material that does not jive with their political agenda.

Thanks for saying I made some excellent contributions. The way the reparations folks have hijacked this article they'll never make it into an unbiased article. There is not consensus with these people. I'm surprised the "race card" hasn't been played yet which I suppose is a positive testiment to the folks who hang out on Wikipedia.

-Regards, History Student


 * I apologize, I misunderstood the nature of the protection. I therefore suggest that "History Student" be allowed to post to this Talk page free of restriction. --Ogthor 06:26, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Sign your posts, please
From Wikipedia guidelines: "Signing your posts on talk pages and other Wikipedia discourse (but not on articles) is not only good etiquette; it also facilitates discussion by helping other users to identify the author of a particular comment, to navigate talk pages, and to address specific comments to the relevant user(s), among other things. Discussion is an important part of collaborative editing as it helps other users to understand the progress and evolution of a work." Two issues make this highly relevant: (1) the high volume of contributions from anonymous editors, and (2) responses to other editors' posts that are intercut within the original rather than posted afterward. In order for current and future editors and readers to make sense of the discussion, the least one can do is sign posts--with anonymous IP or user ID. At least that way we can tell which is the question and which is the response.

In my opinion, you're only shooting yourself in the foot by not making your posts clear with your signature and proper formatting. In the end, it's your contribution, and your responsibility to make things clear for others. Most readers will be people who come to this discussion later on and have to read the talk page top to bottom. I'm keeping current, and I get lost. --ishu 00:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

'''Gee, I'd like to electronically sign my posts but when I log in I'm told my IP has been blocked. How about we cut the song and dance and get to the substantial issues like the currently locked article attempting to pose as history? Or is that secondary to earth shattering issues like "sign your posts"?

'''Here's an example of some blatantly wrong history in this article. Where is the outcry for citations? Is not surprising the criticism is totally one-sided? Well not for me because I know how the reparations activists tick.'''

"During the war, an appeal contesting the government's authority to intern people based on their ancestry reached the Supreme Court, but the court upheld the government's right to intern."

'''Wrong. Blatantly flat out wrong. The Supreme Court Decisions upheld the government's right to evacuate from the military zones. They had nothing to do with the Relocation Centers and even less to do with the DOJ internment program.'''

'''Obviously providing people with blatantly incorrect information isn't an issue here, though. You people are too concerned with signing posts, pov forks and my Tom Kawakita edit that was removed!!! What a joke.'''

Regards - History Student

rfc
please visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/History_Student

I haven't compiled diffs.

Justforasecond 18:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * To clarify for interested parties, User: History Student has also posted to this page and made edits under User: 207.207.79.202. --Ogthor 22:35, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey justasecond, add this to the list!

"BITE ME!"

What a crock....

--History Student 19:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)