Talk:Interracial marriage/Archive 2

this part doesn't seem to make sense
"L. Shinagawa found the ratio tends to widen wherever an Asian population is the largest and most established; according to a 1990 study in San Francisco, Asian women married partners of European extraction at four times the rate Asian men did. In Sacramento, the ratio was found to be 8:1. "

San Francisco has the oldest Asian community and a much larger population than Sacremento.

Habitalert (talk) 01:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It's quoted directly from the source, which as far as I can tell is a professional journalist who in turn is referencing the conclusions of a professional researcher. I see no reason to remove the San Francisco part, at least.  Reverted for now. Malik047 (talk) 08:57, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Upon some further reviewing, I'm going to agree with you and remove the part about Sacramento. It indeed is likely a mere statistical anomaly, and secondly, it isn't vital in describing the nature of the phenomenon which sociologists observe either way. Malik047 (talk) 07:41, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Legality of Interracial Marriage
After following a string of information originated from a front-page www.yahoo.com article on interracial marriages this past weekend (June 6 2009), I was unpleasantly surprised to read the last paragraph of this section, which makes a direct connection between the 'Special Rapporteur submitted to the 58th session of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights (2002) concerning cultural practices in the family that reflect violence against women (E/CN.4/2002/83)' and the purportedly tolerance in the country of Peru to the killing of a women by her husband should she be found in 'flagrante delito' (caught red-handed) while having an extra-marital relationship. Being a citizen of Peru, I have no idea what on earth made the author suppose or believe that such thing could happen in Peru. I searched his/her reference (e.g., http://ap.ohchr.org/documents/alldocs.aspx?doc_id=2920) but in such document (i.e., E/CN.4/2002/83) Peru is mentioned not even once. Hence, I challenge the author to backup his statement with other than fabricated proof. Unless the author can defend his/her point (I found that unattainable) it is therefore absolutely necessary to make sure that 'Peru' be removed from the paragraph in question. Furthermore, the interpretation of 'flagrante delito' in terms of passion crimes is untrue, since the term describes the more general situation in which a person is apprehended while committing or about to commit a crime or felony (caught red-handed). I really doubt this statement holds true in any Latin American country and hence it also needs to be credibly backed up or else dropped. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trotador21 (talk • contribs) 18:36, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In response to your grievances I reviewed the referenced PDF file in question anew, and I (again) come upon the following paragraph on page 10; under the header; "Special Rapporteur of the Commission on Human Rights on violence against women, its causes and consequences":


 * "The Special Rapporteur indicated that there had been contradictory decisions with regard to the honour defence in Brazil, and that legislative provisions allowing for partial or complete defence in that context could be found in the penal codes of Argentina, Bangladesh, Ecuador, Egypt, Guatemala, the Islamic Republic of Iran, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Peru, the Syrian Arab Republic, Turkey, Venezuela and the West Bank."


 * The legal reality in the aforementioned nations doesn't seem to support your displayed sense of indignation. As a side-note, the reason we've come to consider this paragraph to be of relevance was because the Special Rapporteur found that these legal systems appear to use "adultery" as a blanket term to include the act of women marrying men who are not native to the nation, the culture or the beliefsystem which the woman was born in.  The vague legal definition of "adultery" in the penal codes of these nations essentially seems to function as a means with which the occurance of intercultural/interracial marriages is being systematically suppressed or prevented, without having to officially designate (let alone acknowledge) the phenomenon as such. Malik047 (talk) 11:36, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Splitting
I've placed a tag on the article to suggest splitting the extremely large section on the United States into a new article, with the proposed title being Interracial marriage in the United States. Thoughts? Shall I go ahead? YeshuaD avid  •  Talk  • 16:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Split completed. Please help improve the summary section I left on this page. YeshuaD avid   •  Talk  • 22:14, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

The Rest of the Americas
There are sections in the article on the US, Europe, Africa, Asia and Australia. But what about Canada and countries in the Americas south of the US? Granted, my impression is that the Spanish and Portuguese colonists intermarried with Indian tribes living where there presently is substantial settlement, and possibly with remote areas like southeast Colombia. This would apply to most of South America, Central America and Mexico, as well as Cuba. What about Belize? Other British-colonized territories in the Caribbean? Guyana, Suriname and French Guiana? I have a hunch that Canada was not uppity about it in terms of statutes, but may have had the US influence on social acceptance, with respect to white/black marriage, but been quite accepting of white/"Indian"* or white/Arctic peoples marriage. (*American Indian, Native American, First Nation are various modern labels preferred in different areas of the country.) GBC (talk) 06:57, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

The China section
The section under China is full of misinformation. First of all, the migration of non-Chinese into China began during the Western Jin dynasty (280 – 316 C.E.) not the 7th century. At the beginning of the Western Jin dynasty the emperor opened the border allowing non-Chinese to settle in China in the hope of replenishing the population. The Western Jin dynasty was founded after decades of war which led to the severe decline of population. Many tribal people moved into China, mainly from five groups: the Hsiung-nu, the Chieh, the Hsien-pei, and two groups from Tibet the Ti and Ch’iang people. Soon after they moved into China they took advantage of the weakness of the government by raising their own armies and forming their own kingdoms. They succeed in destroying the Western Jin government and seizing the land in the North of Yangtze River. The Chinese government and the majority of its people fled to the South side of Yangtze River and from there they established the Eastern Jin Dynasty.

The five non-Chinese groups, after driving the Chinese out of northern China, build their own kingdoms and fought each other for land and supremacy. In about three centuries that followed two dozen kingdoms were founded and the land and people suffered many wars. This long period of chaos is called “Wu Hu (Five non-Chinese) Ravaged China” in the Chinese history. During this time Chinese people suffered under the ruling of these people. Although there were racial hatred, massacred of huge number of people based on race occurred, interracial marriage took place and became common over time. It is uncertain whether commoners married outside of their races but historical record shows many in the ruling class came from interracial families. One example, the first emperor of the Tang dynasty (618 – 907 C.E.) himself married a non-Chinese woman who came from an eastern Mongolian tribe. His son Emperor Tai-tsung had a policy of giving non-Chinese people the equal treatment. Many non-Chinese took high government posts in the Tang dynasty including the infamous general An Lushan whose rebellion led to the decline of Tang dynasty. These non-Chinese were allowed to hold high official posts surely they were allowed to marry Chinese women and they did.

Information in this section is misleading, the source of information is just a webpage. TDL79 (talk) 14:24, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

legality of interacial marriage section
Why does this section suddenly become a seemingly unrelated paragraph about violence against women in the Islamic World? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.110.167 (talk) 13:43, 16 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I was going to ask the same thing. AFAIK, Muslim countries (whatever their other faults) do not have any problem with people marrying someone of a different color. I will remove the off-topic material. Redddogg (talk) 14:58, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Tone of article
In general the article seems to be saying that interracial marriage is somehow unusual or remarkable. In fact it is perfecty normal and natural. In places where single people of different groups are together, for instance most colleges in the USA, many will pair up with someone of another group. What is remarkable are the artificial barriers between groups, especally between blacks and whites in the US -- one of the most extreme cases of segregation in the history of the world. Redddogg (talk) 22:15, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Southeast Europe and the Balkans
The Roma could and should be included in this section —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.112.3.166 (talk) 20:34, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Middle east and north africa section
The middle east and north africa section has many uncited and unsourced lines that need to be removed. And there is also a high degree of irrelevance in them; for example including ottoman janissaries in it,when we know that once they aquire that status,they are known as muslims, hence their taking muslim wives as an issue does not make any sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arsalan91 (talk • contribs) 17:10, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


 * 1. There was indeed no source for the information attributed to The Genographic Project.


 * 2. There seems to be a misunderstanding about the "marriage between European men and Muslim women from the Middle East". These European men were all (or almost all) Muslims, but this is irrelevant: the article is about interracial marriage, not interfaith marriage. Talking about "marriage between European men (who were or had become Muslim) and Muslim women from the Middle East" would avoid the misunderstanding, but would be equally irrelevant. "Marriage between European men and women from the Middle East" would be better. Unfortunately, there is no no source except Wikipedia (janissaries and Kouloughli). Note that the French version clearly states that the fr:Kouloughlis' fathers were mostly janissaries, but does not provide any source. Maybe Patrick Kinross mentions this in The Ottoman Centuries: The Rise and Fall of the Turkish Empire London: Perennial, 1977?
 * By the way, there has been a number of marriages between crusaders and local ladies, not to mention - a little north - Aleksandra Lisowska, better known as Roxelana, the Ukrainian wife of Suleiman the Magnificent.


 * 3. There is nothing wrong in the section on North Africa, except the absence of source and the fact that intermarriages also involved (in lesser numbers?) European women.


 * 4. Apart from the misunderstanding mentioned above, what are the other cases of "high degree of irrelevance"?
 * --Touchatou (talk) 01:23, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

United Kingdom: Interacial marriage disparities

Hi, This bit is wrong where it says "Among British Asians, referring mainly to South Asians, males were twice as likely to have an inter-ethnic marriage than their female counterparts". If you look at the source (93) you will see that it says nothing about Indians/South Asians. In fact, it says "The interracial marriage rates were the same for males and females of all races except for black males and chinese females who are more likely to marry out" (or something like that... towards the end of the article). If you look at the graph, you can see that indian men and indian women marry out at the same rate. Please fix this mistake, Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.72.201.86 (talk) 03:48, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Issues with the edits of user Jagged 85
Much of the content recently contributed by user Jagged 85 has resulted in the article having become heavily skewed towards a Muslim perspective on interracial marriage world-wide. I will wait for a while, but if more contributers do not step up to provide additional perspectives in addition to these edits of user Jagged 85, I am re-adding the globalize tag. Ironically, Jagged 85 has inadvertently worsened the problem which caused the tag to be added in the first place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.196.66.167 (talk) 21:50, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The response to this request has been exemplary; I no longer see any issues with this article as of now. Thank you to all who contributed, and not in the least user Jagged 85, who took the first step in greatly expanding this article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.196.66.167 (talk) 12:14, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

This is true, I based it from my own experience, when I was working in US for more than 3 years, I meet and get to know plenty of african americans, almost every one of them married to asian females, it was southern california part where majority of people is white. During those years I have almost never saw or knew white females - black males couples. Most interracial couples i saw or knew involving asian females and non-asian males. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.136.52.90 (talk) 04:04, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Othello
Noticing the recent changes to the article, I have to ask: is there a good reason why File:Othellopainting.jpg can't be used to illustrate the article? --Ibn (talk) 18:09, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Because: a. the concept of "interracial" was unheard when Shakespeare wrote the play, for it to a posteriori depict, as my counter-arguer present it, an interracial marriage; b. be the first argument mooted on the basis of present-day POV on concepts existent, yet not named accordingly in the sixteenth century (i.e. "interracial" marriage/relation/etc.), I express my doubt that one could reduce the synopsis of Othello to "a play about interracial marriage". Moreover, c. the meaning of "Moor" has not been made clear, neither on Wikipedia, nor on scholarly research, that is, nobody can state that an affair between a Moor and an European constitutes interracial relationship. ITSENJOYABLE (talk) 12:25, 17 June 2010 (UTC)


 * (a) What was current in Shakespeare's day is irrelevant; we're writing a 21st-century encyclopedia. (b) If you don't like the caption's description of Othello, edit it. (c) Othello and Desdemona are the quintessential interracial couple of classical literature, your effort to confuse the issue notwithstanding. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 17:13, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Your opinion about the play is pure POV. ITSENJOYABLE (talk) 09:42, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't be absurd. Have you even read the play? The fact that Othello is of a different race than Desdemona is repeatedly emphasised. And, more to the point, the marriage is described as such in numerous reliable sources. . Paul B (talk) 15:52, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Iceland
I read that the current population of Iceland descends mainly from Viking men and Irish captive women. It could be interesting to mention. --Error (talk) 23:45, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Inconsistency
If you follow the link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws it states that the 13 colonies had anti-miscegnation laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws). However, the map provided in this article depicts New York as a state that never had such laws. One or the other needs to be fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.201.111.155 (talk) 23:41, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

This article is fatally Amero-centric
Reading this article and clicking on the references and reading them as well makes it plain that nearly the whole thing is Amero-centric. Especially, the bottom part where it talks about difficulties relating to inter-racial marriage nearly all points to studies emanating from the United States. However, the article fudges this by generalising the data to the rest of the world. Not cool, people! There are plenty of places in the world where it is quite normal for inter-racial marriages to exist, perfectly okay to grow up with mixed blood, and for there to be hardly a social stigma whatsoever. I think Americans, coming from a country with a poor human rights record, tend to extrapolate their own experience outwards so that they believe they are experiencing global phenomena.180.75.206.143 (talk) 15:10, 1 June 2011 (UTC)


 * What article are you talking about? Interracial marriage in the United States? In the article Interracial marriage, a little less than bout 3% of the text (images removed) is devoted to the United States (at the beginning); a little more than 6% relate to "Intercultural marriage complications", fully based on U.S data (at the end). In all, about 9% deals with the USA (about 8,4% if images are included, but it depends on your browser). More than 90% has nothing to do with the USA. While the wiktionary is not perfectly clear, it appears that "amerocentric" is about the United States, not the whole Americas. Not cool, people! Your title and your first statement are 90% wrong!


 * Where you are right is about the last part, on "Intercultural marriage complications" which is based on (only) four U.S references and tend to "generalise the data to the rest of the world". There are reliable studies on intercultural marriages in many other parts of the world, even if only English language studies are considered. But the picture provided by those I know - from China to France, from the Mali to Australia, from Malaysia to South Africa - does not seem to be very different from the U.S. Just a question of degree.


 * You state that there are "many places in the world where it is quite normal for inter-racial marriages to exist, perfectly okay to grow up with mixed blood, and for there to be hardly a social stigma whatsoever". Not cool, people! You shift from "intercultural" to "interracial"! I must admit that even if this last section distinguishes intercultural from interracial marriages, many readers may not have noticed it.


 * If you know of studies showing no problem whatsoever in intercultural marriages, I would be glad to use them to "de-amerocentrize" the last section. Regards. Touchatou (talk) 21:49, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Semitic section sought
There should be a separate paragraph in this article, just for the jewish issue. Because the chosen tribe numbers only a few million worldwide, IM directly threatens them, as jewishness is matrilinearly descended. Because jews are rich and wise and well-connected, many goyim seek to marry them. Jews are generally clever enough to recognize when a goy seeking them for bed has ulterior motives, but religiously-culturally considered, it is even questionable if true love is enough grounds for a jew to marry out of his tribe as his son will not be a jew.

Rabbis urge jewish guys to bring home pure-blood jewish girls and sire six kids, so the tribe does not dissolve in the more numerous goyim blood. In fact halachial law bans jews from sitting at the table of goyim and drinking their wine, as that dilutes morals. That is how the tribe survived 5+ millenia. This is not discrimination, it is a commandment of the covenant. Jews have that famous high IQ level accumulated because they do not marry out of tribe. 91.82.243.3 (talk) 21:13, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

King David and Bathsheeba.
"These Hittites intermarried into Israel as shown by the tale of King David and Bathsheeba. "
 * This is is incorrect. Bathsheeba was an Israelite.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:41, 9 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, but her husband was a Hittite. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:13, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Sub-Saharan Africa
A one sourced section and POV. Do not advance your POV here.Tamsier (talk) 11:12, 31 July 2012 (UTC) EDIT - Notice that I forgot to log on.Tamsier (talk) 11:15, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

New Zealand
It is hard to understand why a page on interracial marriage includes absolutely no reference to a country which has been at the forefront of interracial marriage for centuries - New Zealand. The tight integration of European settlers with the native people is well documented. It's interesting to note that the country NZ most respected regarding the national sport (rugby) was South Africa - which had the exact opposite attitude (politically at least) towards interracial marriage for a significant portion of the 20th century. NZ wasn't allowed to send players with coloured skin (at the very least who looked ethnic) to the republic because of apartheid for decades. NZ knew of the apartheid polices in SA, and it was a major bone contention in NZ (amongst both pakeha and Maori) long before the African nations boycotted the 1976 olympics. NZ was effectively a political scapegoat during that period, even though it was arguably the most racially harmonious developed nation in the world. Don't even get me started on the Springbok tour of '81. NZ isn't perfect, but compared to almost any (perhaps every) other country in the world interracial marriage has been an accepted part of NZ culture for a very long time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kiwi bloke 2012 (talk • contribs) 16:39, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Be bold and add information about New Zealand to the article. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 18:28, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Reference to West Asia
The article makes the claim that West Asia has been invaded frequently by Europeans. There is neither a reference, or a reasonable basis for that statement. In fact, studies in population genetics suggest that there is minimum back-flow from Europe, into Iran Turkey or Afghanistan. This is best evidenced by the lack of European specific haplotypes throughout West Asia. Therefore, I have removed the section regarding West Asia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.196.88.228 (talk) 01:31, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Dunleavy, V. (2004). Examining interracial marriage attitudes as value expressive 	attitudes. Howard Journal of Communications, 15(1), 21-38. doi:10.1080/10646170490275369

Feinman, S., & Gill, G. W. (1978). Sex differences in physical attractiveness 	preferences. Journal of Social Psychology, 105(1), 43.

McClintock, E. (2010). When does race matter? Race, sex, and dating at an elite university. Journal of Marriage & Family, 72(1), 45-72. doi:10.1111/j.1741- 3737.2009.00683.x Brittctodd (talk) 16:52, 20 February 2013 (UTC)brittctodd

Interracial marriage
Sources I will be reviewing looking at for Interracial marriage

"Interracial MarriageÂ Challenges." About.com Marriage. N.p., n.d. Web. 20 Feb. 2013. "Study: Interracial Marriage, Acceptance Growing." CNN. N.p., 16 Feb. 2012. Web. 20 Feb. 2013. Interracial Marriage - Difficulties In Interracial Marriages

Cweber10 (talk) 19:12, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Content that will be added after improvement:

After improvements to the United States section of this artlice there will be more information on the background of interracial marriage in the U.S. (i.e. Loving v. Virginia). There will also be more statistics that show how different regions of the U.S. differ in percentage of interrical marriages among White, Black, Asian, and Hispanic populations. Also, I will look at divorce aspects of interracial marriage in order to see how much of an affect marrying interraically has on the longevity of marriages.

I will be adding a number of things to the United States section of this page. I will focus on the 1967 Surpreme Court Case Loving v. Virgina. In addition, I will provide information on what part(s) of the U.S. have the most interracial marriage rates as well as look at the divorce rates for interracial marriage in the U.S. Croconnor89 (talk) 03:21, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Intercultural marriage advantages

Summary: On "Interracial marriage," we will be adding information and improving their existing article. They already mention and cover intercultural marriage complications, but they do not mention intercultural marriage advantages. We will add to this article the advantages intercultural/interracial marriage can have within individuals personal relationships and also within a family. After this article is improves by us, there will be further information in regards to both the pro's and con's of intercultural marriages, instead of just the complications.

Brief description of our plans: We plan to add to the existing article on Interracial marriage, but provide insight and add Comparing and Contrasting evidence for the benefits and advantages of Interracial marriages instead of just the complications. We will be able to do this by looking at various articles and getting information that support this idea.

Cweber10 (talk) 18:55, 13 March 2013 (UTC) User:BrittcTodd

Seperating nationality, ethnicity, religion from race
A lot of the stuff here is about marriage between people of different nationalities, ethnicities and religions rather than race which is a different concept altogether. Most the article should be purged imo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.231.93.35 (talk) 10:59, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Citation issues
The section on Cuba contains improper inline citations and needs to be fixed to Wikipedia style citations. I would make this change myself but I have no idea what the titles of the articles are, journals they're from, etc. and I'm not exactly proficient at Wikipedia editing. Vorpal22 (talk) 21:46, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Current Image
The current image is a painting that is not one revolving around an actual marriage that took place in history. The paintings image is one revolved around a fictional story. The image should be one with historicity and not that entails fiction and possible untruthful misinformation. I have decided to replace the former picture with an image of an actual interracial marriage that took place in reality. If you have a problem with it, please let me know why. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 03:29, 9 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I already let you know why. Othello and Desdemona may be the best known interracial couple in history, Why don't you propose an alternative here and try to build consensus for it. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:34, 9 December 2013 (UTC)


 * That's not very good logic breh. Sure the story is quite famous, but it is a fictional one. The current image could lead to misinformation for people by believing that marriage really occurred in history and the Moors looked like the one in the image which has no validity. All the other interracial marriages mentioned in the article besides that one actually have historicity and statistical factuality. A fictional marriage shouldn't be included in a page regarding actual marriages that occurred. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 05:39, 9 December 2013 (UTC)


 * This seems to have more with your bee-in-bonnet about Moors than the content of this article. I think the rationale for the present image is reasonable. Pinkbeast (talk) 11:28, 22 December 2013 (UTC)


 * It seems "rationale" based off what? My dispute was originally with Malik Shabazz, not you. He saw my new edit and had no problem with it considering he didn't revert it. This page regards facts surrounding history, genetics, and statistics. I'm a rigorous editor and I like the images on articles to be congruent with the article. A painting based off a fictional story on a page regarding factuality is not very "rationale" to me. You have a problem with my new picture addition for some reason? Why? I can't see one. Elaborate why you don't like my recent edit, please? 70.126.13.113 (talk) 12:27, 22 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree with Malik Shabazz's comments above re the merits of Othello and Desdemona; I don't need to repeat them. They suggested you propose a change (which you have not done) and build consensus for it (there is none.) If they like your edit, they can say so. Pinkbeast (talk) 18:56, 22 December 2013 (UTC)


 * My original picture was different from the new one I put up which was a picture of an interracial couple who's marriage was huge in America and caused much controversy and their relations changed laws forever and they even have a day after them. Usually when a new edit occurs and their is no reversion, consensus is usually assumed to have occurred from both sides. As aforementioned me being an editor with much meticulousness I like to have the most congruent pictures and sources to go along with articles. A painting based off a fictional story does not go well with an article regarding factuality. 70.126.13.113 (talk) 04:28, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, there was a reversion. Now, let's see if anyone else likes your suggestion? Pinkbeast (talk) 04:41, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The IP's second image is a copyright violation, and it's going to be deleted. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 11:38, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * If use an image of them that isn't a copyright violation -- the edit is fine with you Malik? 70.126.13.113 (talk) 15:58, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The use of a copyrighted image in this article fails WP:NFCC because there are free alternatives available. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 17:18, 23 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I messed up that edit, my bad. What I meant to say was -- If I use an image of Richard Loving and his wife Mildred that isn't a copyright violation then the edit is fine with you? 70.126.13.113 (talk) 06:49, 24 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia has an image of the Lovings, File:Mildred Jeter and Richard Loving.jpg, but it is a non-free image. As far as I know, there are no free images of them. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 08:43, 24 December 2013 (UTC)


 * What copyright laws did the original image violate? 70.126.13.113 (talk) 13:19, 24 December 2013 (UTC)


 * The image is owned by Corbis Images. Pretending that you own it and releasing it under a CC license, as you did on Commons, is against the law. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 18:02, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Too Much Focus on Chinese immigration
Why the large focus on Chinese immigration and marriage to various parts of the world? The sections on Central and South America make no mention of the Spanish and other settlers mixing with the local populations - instead it focuses on Chinese (mainly Cantonese) immigration and marriage. I'm not saying that the information isn't good, but it would be nice if someone would more information on this subject than I could add additional information to these areas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.27.47.56 (talk) 17:23, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Agreed!

Even more bias is that there are 18 paragraphs on immigration to China, Hong Kong and Macau where less than 2% of the population (according to the cited sources) even have genetic markers from outside China's borders. The fact that it mentions only 400 mixed marriages (of African and Chinese) out of a population of 1 billion speaks volumes to how out of place a huge Chinese bias is in this article. Even more telling is that the US (by far the most diverse and racially tolerant of the world's most populus nations has only 3 paragraphs that focus almost exclusively on marriage laws and the fact that African American women marry outside their race less than men.

Left out is that 2010 Pew Research found 15% of all new marriages in the US are interracial. 35% of adults in US have a family member married to someone outside their own race. And a big one that also speaks to the huge shift in racial tolerance, 60% of Americans say its okay for their own children to marry someone from another race! That one kind of blows away the idea that the US belongs at no. 1 on the most racist countries lists!

Oh, and Canada is one of the most diverse, liberal and open countries in the world, yet not even a mention? Is that because the Hong Kong flight to Vancouver in the 90's is still too much of an embarrassment?1.229.130.160 (talk) 09:28, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

I noticed the same thing it's really disproportionate — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.183.59.95 (talk) 21:02, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

ambiguous opening line
"Interracial marriage occurs when two people of differing racial groups marry."

What an ambiguous opening line -- scientists and anthropologists no longer know what 'race' actually means, or if it exists at all, since nearly every ethnic group or culture overlaps with another -- Russians 'overlap' with East Asians ( Koreans etc), Azeri people 'overlap' with Iranians, Ethiopian Jews 'overlap' with Kenyans and Sudanese, Ashkenazi Jews 'overlap' with Turks, Poles and Ukrainians, Palestinians and Syrians 'overlap' with Greeks,and the British people 'overlap' with Germans and Scandinavians, who, in turn, overlap with Poles and Hungarians etc.

The opening sentence gives the impression that 'race' is axiomatic -- it is not.

61.81.119.171 (talk) 00:49, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The examples you cited are not races, they are ethnicities. Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 02:49, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Duplication - Merge?
Please see the discussion at Miscenation. Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 03:03, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Acceptance rates of interracial marriage by countries
I proposes there be a section on this article which shows the approval of interracial marriages by countries across the world, with the most recent stats and some older years to show the trends. I got data for 3 countries... what y'all think?

(B23Rich (talk) 16:12, 6 July 2014 (UTC))

Inter-racial marriages vs inter-racial relationships
The article is titled Interracial Marriage, but it is muddled up with interracial relationships. A marriage is governed by law, whereas a relationship is not. Of course after a period of years and history, it is probably impossible to distinguish whether offsprings and descendants were from a marriage or from a relationship. Maybe the title of this article be changed to something else to reflect this, perhaps Interracial Sexual Relationships? 86.180.152.25 (talk) 02:16, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Anti-religious rhetoric.
Under the entry "Religious objections," it claims that the marriage of the Nephilim (meaning sons of God and daughters of men, a metaphor for interfaith relations, or, alternatively, a reference to the Canaanites, the original inhabitants of modern day Israel and Palestine)represents the Bible's intolerance for multi-racial marriages. This rhetoric is derived from the 1920s and 30s when fascism within Europe tried to pervert it to support their segregationist ideology. Even back then it was a hard-sell, and today no one subscribes to that interpretation anymore. It is as widely believed as a flat Earth is today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.135.164.254 (talk) 22:53, 23 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Notwithstanding the ranting in edit summaries, this does appear to be substantively correct. Pinkbeast (talk) 03:29, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I completely agree: epitome of crap.
It's missing citations in entire sections, has very problematic use of offensive terms like miscegenation, uses an outdated and no longer accepted definition of race, and as the previous person wrote, is full of useless and irrelevant information. Can the whole thing be gutted??? Senolatzo (talk) 00:56, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Concerns about ideology and framing of topic
Hi, this article topic needs to be re-examined by experts so that it encompasses an inclusive and global definition of race and marriage. Right now it has a strong western ideology about race and marriage as a framework. Additionally, more and better background information needs to be included in the lead to explain the topic. I've tagged the article to show my concerns. Sydney Poore/FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 14:45, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

China
5.2.1 China

5.2.2 Taiwan

5.2.2.1 Hong Kong

5.2.2.2 Macau

Why are Hong Kong and Macau 5.2.2? They are administered by the People's Republic of China, not Republic of China. --Explosivo (talk) 10:44, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

This article is the epitome of crap.
Seriously, who edited this? Nothing but a bunch of useless ad irrelevant information. I wouldn't be surprised to find out the only 2 people who edited this page were 1 Chinese guy and 1 Black guy, because this page seems awfully biased towards the latter 2 groups. I also took the liberty of deleting some of the contents of the article including some unimportant photos that should really be replaced with much better examples of miscegenation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.130.205.151 (talk) 00:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Well, I agree with you, and made some similar changes, but they got reverted within an hour by someone named Takeaway. Your support would be appreciated.Sprucegrouse (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:00, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Interracial marriage. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.upf.edu/mon/assig/xialmo/mat/dorsey_4.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 15:41, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Reference 116
This reference is absolutely ridiculous, in that it's massive. A reference should only be pointing to one source to begin with. It's massive size is causing my bot to crash by segfaulting PHP itself. I've been trying to figure out the cause of this for weeks now.—cyberpower Chat :Limited Access 03:29, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 one external links on Interracial marriage. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://arinave.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/INCORE-Paper-2001-PDF1.pdf
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://arinave.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/INCORE-Paper-2001-PDF1.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 17:22, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 one external links on Interracial marriage. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160504160529/http://aaww.org/coolie-womans-work-gaiutra-bahadur/ to http://aaww.org/coolie-womans-work-gaiutra-bahadur/
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200603/200603300034.html
 * Added tag to http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/http:/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090821122928/http://www.asiaone.com:80/Just%2BWoman/News/High%2BLife/Story/A1Story20081017-94498.html to http://www.asiaone.com/Just%2BWoman/News/High%2BLife/Story/A1Story20081017-94498.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 23:21, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Messed up article
It unfortunately seems certain users who wrote large portions of this article completely failed to grasp the difference between inter-ethnic relations/marriages and inter-racial relations/marriages. Vikings and Balkanites were from a different race? Icelanders are the result of interracial marriages? Excuse me, but that's total garbage. I'd highly suggest to read some actual academic sources in order to understand what the concepts of "race", "ethnicity" and "inter-ethnic" and "interracial" relations actually were and are. - LouisAragon (talk) 05:21, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually, the main problem with this article is not the lack of distinction between inter-ethnic and interracial - these two terms can sometimes be used almost interchangeably. Rather, the issue is that most of this article treats concubinage and sexual slavery as though they were the same thing as a marriage! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.169.40.8 (talk) 06:37, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Also way too many examples, many about individual couples. The topic involves millions of people over many thousands of years.  This article should be only a general overview, with links to more specific sub-topics.Redddogg (talk) 22:41, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Interracial marriage. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090206221857/http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/11/06/39210_.html to http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/11/06/39210_.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110725220038/http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/whtslav.htm to http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/whtslav.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 03:37, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

CHINESE
can anyone review this article?? too much focus on chinese people and race mixing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.160.37.34 (talk) 06:46, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Let's break up and merge this article.
I agree that this article is crap. Please join the discussion on the Miscegenation talk page about what to do about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sprucegrouse (talk • contribs) 12:22, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Replace image with Katrina Kaif
, Katrina Kaif is the most notable mixed actor working in Indian cinema. The image of Rahul Gandhi is of low quality. Plus, he is political. It is best not to bring politicians into an article like this. Better to keep it non-political, if possible. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 01:47, 21 January 2019 (UTC))
 * There is not necessity for there to be a photo of "the most notable mixed actor working in Indian cinema", which in any case is your opinion
 * Politics doesn't enter into this at all.
 * Gandhi is a world-notable person, Kaif is not.
 * The quality of the original image is more than sufficient for the size it is at.
 * You're putting the picture of Katrina Kaif into multiple articles.
 * As noted on your talk page (, immediately reverted by you) please stop, unless you'd like to see a report about this on AN/I. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:51, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , I put her pic in two articles. Just like I did with "Redenção.jpg" in two articles. Why is that an issue? There is no deadline. You provided nothing that invalidates the image. You are not being constructive. You reverted without an explanation. I am now at the talk page trying to come to an understanding. (I reverted your post because I was cleaning my talk page here then you came few mins later here, plus you went into insulting by stating I am getting paid. That is rubbish. What evidence you have I am being paid?) (Highpeaks35 (talk) 02:02, 21 January 2019 (UTC))
 * I asked you if you had a COI and I asked you if you were being paid to efit. Those were not allegations, they were questions, and pefectly reasonable in the light of your adding pictures of this actress to multiple articles, and then changing those pictures to "better" ones, etc.  That's the kind of thing that paid P.R. people do, so I asked. If you're not, well, you're not, no foul, no harm -- but you're still replacing perfectly reasonable pictures with those of a specific actress. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:08, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
 * As mentioned, There is no deadline. Between the two, the Katrina Kaif image is better and clear. Plus, Rahul does not celebrate his Italian roots due to political reason, but Kaif does celebrate her English roots as seen in interviews as such. Also, Rahul's eyes are even closed in this pic. Plus, he is not internationally known as much as Kaif. Bollywood has nearly 2 billion viewers or more, but Rahul Gandhi is just president of a major political party. Who knows him besides academics or political junkies outside the Indian subcontinent? Kaif is very much known in the Middle East, Indian subcontinent, Central Asia, Eastern Europe and Africa. Her movies were a hit in all those regions. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 02:16, 21 January 2019 (UTC))
 * Furthermore, her movies such as Ek Tha Tiger (2012) and its 2017 sequel, and the action thriller Dhoom 3 (2013), all of which rank among the highest-grossing Indian films of all time. She has billion(s) of fans from India and around the world with the success of her films. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 02:28, 21 January 2019 (UTC))::
 * WP:DEADLINE is irrelevant, and I don't know why you keep citing it. As far as I'm concerned, your changes do not improve the article.  If you can get a consensus of editors that agrees with you, of course I'll go along with the consensus decision, but, until then, please do not edit against consensus, which is considered to be Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:26, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
 * How do I get a consensus when there is no opposition except you? Do I start RFC? (Highpeaks35 (talk) 04:16, 21 January 2019 (UTC))
 * No, we're a long way from needing an RfC. If you want to attract other editors to this discussion, you can go to the talk pages of the two WikiProjects listed for this article --WikiProject Ethnic Groups and WikiProject Sociology -- and leave there a neutral pointer to this discussion, and see who shows up to give their opinion. A neutral pointer would be along the lines of
 * Members of this group might be interested in this discussion: [give URL or Wikilink to this discussion]."
 * A non-neutral pointer, which would be a violation of WP:Canvassing, would be something like:
 * Hey, I'm in a dispute with this fat head another editor who refuses to let me post the pictures I want to, which would really improve the article. Come on over to the discussion at [URL or Wikilink] and help me out."
 * Further, a pointer to WikiProjects which are not listed on the article, or to your Wikifriends who you can count on to agree with you, are also violations of the canvassing rules, which can lead to being blocked from editing. Just post those two neutral pointers to those two WikiProjects and let's see what happens. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:36, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh, and it's also usual that if you post a pointer, you post a comment here to say that you've done so, so anyone who wants to can check it out and make sure that it's neutral. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:38, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
 * May I add that the logic used by Highpeaks35 to justify insertion of a studio photo of an actress into an article on interracial marriage is weak, if not demented. Highpeaks35, just give up your ill-conceived crusade. We can all use the time savings.--Quisqualis (talk) 05:05, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Single source and weasel issues for such expansive claims. Most unsourced.
In some sections, this article provide a huge bundle of text with only a single source. Some of the claims so expansive and controversial that they merit a source supporting them. Weasel words words used in order to advance a POV. I have tagged the relevant sections here and here. I was reverted by without addressing the issues raised. I reverted him and he reverted me again. He seems to have a personal stake in this article. I am not going to enter into an edit war with this fellow. The community can decide how to deal with this article especially with such an editor- who seems to have a stake and POV in this article without regard to our policies. Big claims needs big sources but not so as far as Beyond My Ken is concerned. I am surprised that he does not see any problem with the article and objected to my edit summaries and tags. This article needs serious re-editing. Going by the edit history, it appears I'm not the only one who sees problems with this article. I do not have a dog in this fight, bu it must abide by our polices just like any other article.Tamsier (talk) 11:14, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * You may make these edits when you get a consensus of editors to agree with you, not before. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:46, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:30, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Rahul Gandhi (headshot).jpg

Source missing: ref.411,412
I hope i do more good than harm since i haven't edited wikipedia in my life, but just wanted to point out those references are not available. :)

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.32.232.75 (talk) 11:28, 21 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Hello, and thank you for pointing out that two of our links to other websites had gone stale. I was able to refresh one dead link, courtesy of the Wayback Machine. The other link, to a journal article, may be limited to readers with subscriptions or access to academic libraries. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:01, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Interracial marriage, interracial sex/relationship or interracial rape? Which one is it?
Moving on from my comment [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Interracial_marriage#Single_source_and_weasel_issues_for_such_expansive_claims._Most_unsourced. above], another major concern I find about this article is its inability to differentiate between Interracial marriage, interracial sex and interracial rape. For example, an Arab or White slave owner raping their slave is not "interracial marriage", Forcefully marrying your slave - who never had a choice in the first place is not interracial marriage in my opinion. Further, two people from different racial backgrounds entering into a sexual relationship or cohabiting but nor married is not interracial marriage. This article is way of topic and based on SYNTH. It needs a total rewrite or editing.Tamsier (talk)
 * Same. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:46, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Benefits

 * This article has a section called "benefits". The first statement: "enhances open communication for individuals to cultivate so they can have greater depth, and views of people within our world" is both beautiful, relevant, and appropriately sourced.


 * The next paragraph makes me a little uneasy. It makes the claim that multiracial people have distinct health and well being advantages. I don't necessarily disagree with that; but it is kinda HBD-ish. Recently, I removed a "health risks" section from the miscegenation article that was seemingly racist in nature. A user had falsified data and used unreliable references to portray biracial pregnancy as a health risk, and biracial people as being prone to low birth weight. I wonder if they didn't see this "benefits" section at this article and think to themselves "well, i think interracial marriage sucks, so I'm going to do my own science on the miscegenation article"?


 * The second paragraph statement is referenced with a "Channel 4" link. The other reference is a hypothesis about health based on data that indicates bircial faces are considered more attractive. I'm really tempted to remove the Channel 4 link and maybe even the claim that biracial people are healthier. What do you think? Hunan201p (talk) 23:37, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

There are many misinterpreting the source about Chinese intermarrige.
(1) Although most of them are about marriage between Chinese women and foreign men, only the cases of Chinese men and foreign women are written. ( For example During the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period (Wudai) (907–960), there are examples of Persian women marrying Chinese emperors. Some Chinese officials from the Song Dynasty era also married women from Dashi (Arabia).[222] https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q&f=false ) --- (For example 2 Portuguese and other Caucasian women married Chinese men. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=_j2lXoxMIiAC&pg=PA254&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false )

=>However, the source mainly mentions marriages between foreign men and Chinese women.

(2) we don't know if some source really makes that argument. (For example
 * Walter Joseph Fischel "Semitic and Oriental studies: a volume presented to William Popper, professor of Semitic languages, emeritus, on the occasion of his seventy-fifth birthday, October 29, 1949" University of California Press (1951) p. 407 Multiple women originating from the Persian Gulf lived in Guangzhou's foreign quarter, they were all called "Persian women" (波斯婦 Po-ssu-fu or Bosifu).<
 * cite book |url=https://www.google.com/?ei=TUtTTZvCLcL6lwfv-rmNCg&ct=result&id=rBIUAQAAMAAJ |title=Memoirs of the Research Department of the Toyo Bunko (the Oriental Library), Issue 2 |author=Tōyō Bunko (Japan). Kenkyūbu |year=1928 |publisher=The Toyo Bunko |place=the University of Michigan |page=34 |accessdate=9 February 2011 )

(3) It is a minority case, but it is exaggerated. For example :  Chinese intermarrige in Americas

(The books say as follows only. ) 'There is anecdotal evidence that Chinese men in Cuba and Peru married or had sexual relationships with white,black,mulatto and Indian women' Alien Nation: Chinese Migration in the Americas from the Coolie Era Through ISBN 978 1 4696 1340 6 https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=ch8VBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA82&dq=indian+coolie+woman+chinese+men&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=indian%20coolie%20woman%20chinese%20men&f=false

'the men(Chinese) had almost no contact with local women in Peru.' The Chinese in Latin America and the Caribbean https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=xrGShVU6VrgC&pg=PA143&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

'Between 1853 and 1866, 2048 Chinese labourers arrived to work on the estates mainly in Central Trinidad, while between 1846-1859 some 1300 Portuguese labourers were recruited from the archipelago of Madeira off the Atlantic coast of North Africa (Ferreira 1994, 17).' http://www.cambridgescholars.com/download/sample/61376

'A census in 1868 listed 30,591 coolie men and 16 coolie women; only 237 were married. An additional 30 were listed as widowed, without reference to sex' (AHN, Ultramar, Cuba, leg. 9.032/8, “Estado de los colonos asiaticos ecsistentes [sic] en esta Ysla [sic],” Habana, 26 de mayo de 1868)' https://web.archive.org/web/20120220035052/http://www.upf.edu/mon/assig/xialmo/mat/dorsey_4.pdf

In Guyana, Marriages between Indian women and Chinese men in 1892 numbered only six as reported by Immigration Agent Gladwin. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=e-YYAAAAYAAJ&dq=In+1892,+Immigration+Agent+Gladwin+reported+just+six+marriages+between+Chinese+men+and+Indian+women.&q=1892+six+marriages&redir_esc=y&hl=ko Bablos939 (talk) 00:46, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

(4) Overall, there are many unnecessary, repetitive descriptions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bablos939 (talk • contribs) 11:46, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

(5) Most of case, sources is anecdotal evidence. (especially in Latin America.)Bablos939 (talk) 16:07, 19 March 2020 (UTC)


 * The section included references that created footnotes at the bottom of the page. See WP:TPYES, this isn't the way references should be used on talk pages, and makes the page hard to read. I removed the 2 references calls, so that references are now shown inline without footnotes. LaTeeDa (talk) 17:53, 11 April 2020 (UTC)


 * User:Bablos939 is writing original research not in the citations.


 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Interracial_marriage&diff=959664609&oldid=959663475


 * he altered the text here to this


 * By the 14th century, the total population of Muslims in China had grown to 4 million. After Mongol rule had been overthrown by the Ming Dynasty in 1368, this led to a violent Chinese backlash against West and Central Asians. In order to contain the violence, both Mongol and Central Asian Semu Muslim people were required by Ming Code to marry Han Chinese after the first Ming Emperor Hongwu passed the law in Article 122. Ming ordered all West Asian and Mongol men in China to marry Han Chinese women.  International marriages have become common. Most incomer were Han women who married Hui men.  


 * "The Mandate of Heaven and The Great Ming Code" and "The Great Ming Code / Da Ming lu" don't say anything about being forced to marry Han Chinese women, only saying Mongols and West Asians had to marry Han and if they refused, both sexes of Mongol and West Asian would be punished. Colorq world isn't an academic or reliable source.


 * What's more, you added an entire unreferenced three sentences here. No citation.


 * Moreover, the arrival of Islam during the Tang Dynasty in the 7th century brought an influx of immigrants. Due to the majority of these immigrants being male, many intermarried with Chinese females. Intermarriage was initially discouraged by the Tang Dynasty.

Watersinfalls (talk) 00:02, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I will mention a more important part before I discuss it.

(A) 'During the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period (Wudai) (907–960), there are examples of Persian women marrying Chinese emperors. Some Chinese officials from the Song Dynasty era also married women from Dashi (Arabia)' https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false this book only say 'It is hard to find dvidence of females coming with them.'  the text is an obvious lie. (B) 'From the tenth to twelfth century, Persian women were to be found in Guangzhou (Canton), some of them in the tenth century like Mei Zhu in the harem of the Emperor Liu Chang, and in the twelfth century large numbers of Persian women lived there, noted for wearing multiple earrings and "quarrelsome dispositions".[240][241] Some scholars did not differentiate between Persian and Arab, and some say that the Chinese called all women coming from the Persian Gulf "Persian wome' We can't check the source at all. (C) Genetic evidence shows Persian women intermarried with the Cantonese men of Guangzhou. Yao Yonggang et al. reported that Kivisild detected one W mtDNA out of 69 Guangzhou Cantonese population, a common Middle Eastern and Iranian marker.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384943/   'This source has never mentioned marriage. The text is a lie.'Bablos939 (talk) 00:19, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * But True data is being deleted continuously.!!

(A) During the Song Dynasty, many Chinese women (some of noble origin) married foreign merchants. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false (B) Most incomer were Han women who married Hui men.https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=BwuSpFiOFfYC&pg=PA31&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q&f=false (C)According to Sociologist Deng Weizhi's research,90% of Chinese international marriages consist of Chinese wives and foreign husbands, and only less than 10% involve Chinese husbands with foreign wives. (D)More recently, there has been a surge in Chinese-foreign marriages in mainland China, with data showing these types of marriages are more common in women than in men. In 2010, there were almost 40,000 women registered in Chinese-foreign marriages in mainland China. In comparison, there were less than 12,000 men registered in these types of marriages in the same year. Bablos939 (talk) 00:31, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * A. ) It says in the citation here https://books.google.com/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false   :"Song times: 'In the times of Wudai (907—960) the emperors preferred to marry Persian women, and the Song Dynasty official families liked to marry women from Dashi [Arabia] (Li 8c Feng, 198529)."


 * B ) found the source immediately here https://books.google.com/books?newbks=0&id=zucsAQAAIAAJ&dq="At+least+from+the+tenth+to+the+twelfth+century%2C+Persian+women+were+to+be+found+in+Canton%2C+in+the+former+period+observed+"...+Han%2C”+and+in+the+latter+seen+as+typically+wearing+great+numbers+of+earrings+and+cursed+with+quarrelsome+dispositions.&focus=searchwithinvolume&q="At+least+from+the+tenth+to+the+twelfth+century%2C+Persian+women+were+to+be+found+in+Canton%2C+in+the+former+period+observed+" and https://books.google.com/books?newbks=0&id=zucsAQAAIAAJ&dq="At+least+from+the+tenth+to+the+twelfth+century%2C+Persian+women+were+to+be+found+in+Canton%2C+in+the+former+period+observedz"+...+Han%2C”+and+in+the+latter+seen+as+typically+wearing+great+numbers+of+earrings+and+cursed+with+quarrelsome+dispositions.&focus=searchwithinvolume&q="+seen+as+typically+wearing+great+numbers+of+earrings+and+cursed+with+quarrelsome+dispositions."
 * I can't find any data here. No academic material has ever made such remarks. Your link is wrong.

https://www.google.com/search?q=some+of+them+in+the+tenth+century+like+Mei+Zhu+in+the+harem+of+the+Emperor+Liu+Chang,+and+in+the+twelfth+century+large+numbers+of+Persian+women+lived+there,+noted+for+wearing+multiple+earrings+and+%22quarrelsome+disposition&sxsrf=ALeKk03jSfCdpNWSm8RuYO_IJe2FSpRmkQ:1590802389595&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4o9vauNrpAhUQwosBHcPPDl0Q_AUICSgA&biw=1680&bih=939&dpr=1


 * You're link is wrong.
 * https://www.google.com/search?&tbm=bks&ei=aHbSXuuCO-OoytMP9Y6-4Aw&q=At+least+from+the+tenth+to+the+twelfth+century%2C+Persian+women+were+to+be+found+in+Canton%2C+in+the+former+period+observed+among+the+inmates+of+Liu+Chang+of+Southern+Han%2C”+and+in+the+latter+seen+as+typically+wearing+great+numbers+of+earrings+and+cursed+with+quarrelsome+dispositions.&oq=At+least+from+the+tenth+to+the+twelfth+century%2C+Persian+women+were+to+be+found+in+Canton%2C+in+the+former+period+observed+among+the+inmates+of+Liu+Chang+of+Southern+Han%2C”+and+in+the+latter+seen+as+typically+wearing+great+numbers+of+earrings+and+cursed+with+quarrelsome+dispositions.


 * C ) this is the only valid point you made. Otherwise you are falsifying content from their original citations on everything else like on the Ming laws.


 * D) you aren't just adding "true data", you mass deleted sourced stuff on Chinese men's marriages like Li Zhi and manipulated text on the Ming law by claiming it said marry Han Chinese females and added unsourced statements at the beginning. You deleted this. :'+Of the Han Chinese Li family in Quanzhou, Li Nu, the son of Li Lu, visited Hormuz in Persia in 1376, married a Persian or an Arab woman, and brought her back to Quanzhou. He then converted to Islam. Li Nu was the ancestor of the Ming Dynasty reformer Li Chih.  ''
 * I understand that the ''true data agreed to contribute.Bablos939 (talk) 03:08, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

You manipulated this to exclusively say Han Chinese females when it mentioned both genders marrying. ''By the 14th century, the total population of Muslims in China had grown to 4 million. After Mongol rule had been overthrown by the Ming Dynasty in 1368, this led to a violent Chinese backlash against West and Central Asians. In order to contain the violence, both Mongol and Central Asian Semu Muslim women and men of both sexes were required by Ming Code to marry Han Chinese after the first Ming Emperor Hongwu passed the law in Article 122. Han women who married Hui men became Hui, and Han men who married Hui women also became Hui. '' Watersinfalls (talk) 00:32, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Since the law was announced, most international marriages have been between foreign men and Chinese women. Most incomer were Han women who married Hui men.https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=BwuSpFiOFfYC&pg=PA31&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q&f=false
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false Despite most of this book's references to marriages between foreign men and Chinese women, the text has contributed only a small number of cases.Bablos939 (talk) 00:38, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * ? That's not what you did. You changed the text to exclusively say it was about foreigners and Han Chinese women when the citation did not say that. You deleted almost everything about Chinese men marrying like Li Zhi.Watersinfalls (talk) 01:03, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I understand. The well-founded part must be maintained.

However, most cases and minority cases should be distinguished. (A)Tang Dynasty ''Muslim arrivals in China during the Tang and Song Dynasties were from all accounts male. It is hard to find evidence of females coming with them.// many of them had married Chinese women.'' https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false (B)Song Dynasty During the Song Dynasty, many Chinese women (some of noble origin) married foreign merchants. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false (C)Yuan Dynasty ''The great majority of Muslims who came to the East during the Yuan Dynasty were male ,only a few from the upper-class stratum brought their familiy members with them. so it was quite common for a Muslim to marry a Chinese wife.''' https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false (D)People's Republic of China According to Sociologist Deng Weizhi's research,90% of Chinese international marriages consist of Chinese wives and foreign husbands, and only less than 10% involve Chinese husbands with foreign wives "International marriage in China". Liberation Daily News (Deng Weizhi). 2009. More recently, there has been a surge in Chinese-foreign marriages in mainland China, with data showing these types of marriages are more common in women than in men. In 2010, there were almost 40,000 women registered in Chinese-foreign marriages in mainland China. In comparison, there were less than 12,000 men registered in these types of marriages in the same year. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0920203X13492791

In Chinese history, most international marriages are examples of foreign men and Chinese women. But from the past, someone has been deliberately deleting this part.The content must be contributed.I would like to agree that all materials with academic evidence contribute.Bablos939 (talk) 01:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * 'Iranian women dancers were in demand in China during this period. During the Sui dynasty, ten young dancers were sent from Persia to China. During the Tang dynasty, bars were often attended by Iranian or Sogdian waitresses who performed dances for clients.' It has nothing to do with dancer and international marriage. This content should also be deleted too. There is too much content in the current document that is not appropriate. Of course, what you said is acceptable.Bablos939 (talk) 01:22, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

>Information on Iranian women in Guangzhou can be found in many Chinese text to and there's even mention of west Eurasian admixture in Guangzhou due to this. I can use Chinese genetic research with Chinese google searching. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranians_in_China

Bablos939 sources are cherrypicked and entirely focused with Chinese women but ignores all other women with foreign men. Why doesn't he edit anything on Arab women, Russian women, Korean women? He seems to removing anything about Korean women. There massive number of evidence that many Chinese men married foreign women, especially Iranian women and west Asian women in China but he tried to remove them. Read info on Iranian women in southern han, tang dynasty, song dynasty, ming dynasty

He is either anti-Chinese or anti-Asian eurocentrist. We all know Chinese men, Korean men, Asian men are treated horribly in the western media. Asian men are always being taken advantage of. The less interracial marriage the better

I believe he is user blocked user Montalk https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions /Montalk123&offset=&limit=500&target=Montalk123

If you look at his contribution all of his early contribution in the Yuan dynasty, Imperial Chinese harem system, Qing dynasty, Goryeo under Mongol rule, Heqin it's all about removing Korean women but only editing Chinese women with foreign men. I suggest we edit on Korean women interracial marriages if he continues because I can clearly see he is just cherrypicking on Chinese women in all his interracial marriage edits.

For example in women in China, he intentionally removed Korean women https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Women_in_China&diff=prev&oldid=946480356

He seems to be denying there's no marriage between Chinese men and foreign women I did read a Chinese genetic article that Han Chinese have west Eurasian admixtures even.

"Two mtDNAs, one sampled in Yunnan and the other in Liaoning, are regarded as resulting from admixture from western Eurasia (via central Asia), as they belong to the west Eurasian haplogroups HV and T1 (Macaulay et al. 1999). Note that the sample from Guangzhou contains one W haplotype.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranians_in_China

From the tenth to twelfth century, Persian women were to be found in Guangzhou (Canton), some of them in the tenth century like Mei Zhu in the harem of the Emperor Liu Chang, and in the twelfth century large numbers of Persian women lived there, noted for wearing multiple earrings and "quarrelsome dispositions".[25][26] It was recorded that "The Po- ssu-fu at Kuang-chou make holes all round their ears. There are some who wear more than twenty ear-rings."[27] Descriptions of the sexual activities between Liu Chang and the Persian woman in the Song dynasty book the "Ch'ing-i-lu" by T'ao Ku were so graphic that the "Memoirs of the Research Department of the Toyo Bunko (the Oriental Library), Issue 2" refused to provide any quotes from it while discussing the subject.[28] Liu had free time with the Persian women by delegating the task of governing to others.[29] Multiple women originating from the Persian Gulf lived in Guangzhou's foreign quarter, they were all called "Persian women" (波斯婦 Po-ssu-fu or Bosifu).[30]

Some scholars did not differentiate between Persian and Arab, and some say that the Chinese called all women coming from the Persian Gulf "Persian Women".[31]

The young Chinese Emperor Liu Chang of the Southern Han dynasty had a harem, including one Persian girl he nicknamed Mei Zhu, which means "Beautiful Pearl". Liu liked the Persian girl (Mei Zhu) because of her tan skin color, described in French as "peau mate" (olive or light brown skinned). He and the Persian girl also liked to forced young couples to go naked and played with them in the palace.[32][33] and he favored her by "doting" on her. During the first year of his reign, he was not over sixteen years old when he had a taste for intercourse with Persian girls.[34] The Persian girl was called a "princess".[35]

Descriptions of the sexual activities between Liu Chang and the Persian woman in the Song dynasty book the "Ch'ing-i-lu" by T'ao Ku were so graphic that the "Memoirs of the Research Department of the Toyo Bunko (the Oriental Library), Issue 2" refused to provide any quotes from it while discussing the subject.[28] Liu had free time with the Persian women by delegating the task of governing to others.[29]

The Wu Tai Shï says that 'Liu Ch'ang [劉鋹], Emperor of the Southern Han dynasty reigning at Canton, about A.D. 970. "was dallying with his palace girls and Persian [波斯] women in the inner apartments, and left the government of his state to the ministers."[36] The History of the Five Dynasties (Wu Tai Shih) stated that- "Liu Chang then with his court- ladies and Po-ssu woman, indulged in amorous affiurs in the harem".[37]

Song dynasty[edit source] Guangzhou (Canton) had a community which included Persian women in the 10th-12th centuries, found in Liu Chang's harem in the 10th century and in Song dynasty era Guangzhou in the 12th century the Persian women (波斯婦) there were observed wearing many earrings.[38][39][40][41]

The Muslim women in Guangzhou were called either Persian women 波斯婦 or Pusaman 菩薩蠻 菩萨蛮 according to Zhu Yu (author)'s book "Pingzhou ke tan" 萍洲可談 which may be from "Mussulman" or "Bussulman" which means Muslim in Persian.[42][43][44][45][46][47][48] Pusaman was also the name of a tune 樂府 about female dancers sent as tribute to China.[49][50][51][52]

Sogdians in China used 9 Chinese surnames after the Chinese name of the states they came from.[56][57][58][59][60][61][62][63][excessive citations]

Xizhou had a Han and Sogdian population.[64] A record from the Astana Cemetery dating to 639 preserves the transaction where a Sogdian slave girl was being sold in Xizhou. The Han Zhang family also owned Chunxiang, a Turk slave woman in Xizhou. He Deli, a Sogdian who knew how to speak Turkic and Chinese and translated.[65][66][67][68][69][70][71][72][73][74][75][76][77][excessive citations] 120 coins of silver were paid for the slave girl[78][79] from Samarkand.[80] The contract was written in Sogdian.[81] Translated by Yoshida Yutaka.[82][83][84] The slave girl was from the Chuyakk family and born in Central Asia. Upach was her name and the buyer's name was written as Yansyan in Sogdian from the Chan family. The seller of the slave was from Samarqand called Wakhushuvirt and his father was Tudhakk The contract said they could they anything they wanted to Upach, give her away, sell her, abuse her, beat her and she belonged to Yansyan's family forever.[85] Zhang Yanxiang 張延相, whose name is found in Chinese language documents in Turfan, is believed to be Chan Yansyan.[86][87][88][89][90][91][92][93][94][95][96][excessive citations] Kuchean girls were sold as slaves in the Jin and Wei dynasties. On the silk road slave girls was a major item and much more expensive than silk. Silk was up to five times less than the value of a slave girl.[vague] Central Asian slave girls were exported from Central Asia Iranian areas to China. It is believed that the wealthy merchants and aristocratic noblemen of the Chinese capital of Chang'an were the consumers for the huge amount of Central Asian slave women brought by the Sogdians to China to sell to the Chinese. The Central Asian foreign women in the Sogdian owned wineshops in the Chinese capital are also believe to have been slaves since Chinese poets depicted then as homesick, sad and melancholy and they would service travelers by keeping them company overnight. Merchants and literati would frequent the wineshops.[97] The Sogdians reaped massive profits from selling slave girls and so did the Chinese government by taxing the sale of the slaves. Slave girls were one of the major products Chinese bought from Sogdians. Persian poets often wrote about wine and women since the wineservers were often girls and this wine culture with girl servers seems to have spread to China. There were many Sogdian wineshops and Persian shops in Chang'an along with a large slave market. The wineshops were staffed with young girls who served wine to customers and danced for them. Most of the slave girls were 14 or 15 years old. They provided services like sex, dancing, singing, and served wine to their customers in Chang'an as ordered their masters who ran the wineshops. A Sogdian merchant, Kang Weiyi had Indian, Central Asian, and Bactrians among the 15 slave girls he was bringing to sell in the Chinese capital of Chang'an.[98][99][100][101][102][103][104][105][106][107][108][109][79][110][excessive citations] Khotan and Kucha both sold women for sexual services.[111][112] 41.34.93.140 (talk) 01:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * You're not presenting any evidence or data and you're talking nonsense.It should only be presented on the basis of academic materials.you are even framing someone who's completely unrelated.I'm just pointing out the distorted data by someone like you.The IP user is believed to have been blocked in the past. He is a blatant manifestation of a nationalist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BOLD,_revert,_discuss_cycleBablos939 (talk) 01:55, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It became apparent with your remarks. You're distorting facts with nationalist feelings. In fact, there is no academic material for your argument.An example of academic data is shown below.

More recently, there has been a surge in Chinese-foreign marriages in mainland China, with data showing these types of marriages are more common in women than in men. In 2010, there were almost 40,000 women registered in Chinese-foreign marriages in mainland China. In comparison, there were less than 12,000 men registered in these types of marriages in the same year. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0920203X13492791 https://theasiadialogue.com/2014/02/10/chinese-foreign-marriage-in-mainland-china/ http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.915.6769&rep=rep1&type=pdfBablos939 (talk) 02:00, 30 May 2020 (UTC) There are ways to improve the article in page discussion without removing and cherrypicking sources. There was a wiki user that used removed everything about Asian men interracial marriages but only included Asian women in the page, until he was blocked. Like Watersinfalls said Bablos393"changed the text to exclusively say it was about foreigners and Han Chinese women when the citation did not say that. You deleted almost everything about Chinese men marrying like Li Zhi." To see who is distorting data with agenda. To see who are making nationalistic edits, one can go to the admins board. Someone can easily provide based on all the revision history edits. There's a revision history that you can check, all Bablos939 edits are basically Chinese women, what about Korean women historical marriage. I can easily make a huge collection ( dedicate 12 hours of time) and make a huge list of edit of Korean women but than that would be nationalistic agenda but if someone were to report. There is strong evidence Nationalist editing, evidence of removing anything about Chinese men marrying foreign women but only Chinese women marrying foreign men ,are all strongly shown in history of Bablos393. One look at the editing history and you can easily guess what the user is trying to do. 41.34.93.140 (talk) 02:32, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * You are now using IP in a shameless manner. You have been blocked in the past and are deliberately breaking the rules. You are rather deliberately concealing the relationship between Chinese women and foreign men. As evidence you have brought sloppy data that has nothing to do with international marriages. Even the data on the Iranians are exclusive evidence with no academic basis at all.Again, I warn you, you need academic and objective data.

(A)Tang Dynasty ''Muslim arrivals in China during the Tang and Song Dynasties were from all accounts male. It is hard to find evidence of females coming with them.// many of them had married Chinese women.'' https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false (B)Song Dynasty During the Song Dynasty, many Chinese women (some of noble origin) married foreign merchants. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false (C)Yuan Dynasty ''The great majority of Muslims who came to the East during the Yuan Dynasty were male ,only a few from the upper-class stratum brought their familiy members with them. so it was quite common for a Muslim to marry a Chinese wife.''' https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false (D)People's Republic of China According to Sociologist Deng Weizhi's research,90% of Chinese international marriages consist of Chinese wives and foreign husbands, and only less than 10% involve Chinese husbands with foreign wives "International marriage in China". Liberation Daily News (Deng Weizhi). 2009. More recently, there has been a surge in Chinese-foreign marriages in mainland China, with data showing these types of marriages are more common in women than in men. In 2010, there were almost 40,000 women registered in Chinese-foreign marriages in mainland China. In comparison, there were less than 12,000 men registered in these types of marriages in the same year. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0920203X13492791 https://theasiadialogue.com/2014/02/10/chinese-foreign-marriage-in-mainland-china/ http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.915.6769&rep=rep1&type=pdf You're turning Wikipedia into a battlefield of national feeling. I contribute only by academic material. Any data that does not have to be deleted. Repeated but academic data will only contribute and unsupported data should be deleted.You misunderstand that I am only interested in Chinese women. However, it is just that the data on Chinese women is the largest and the actual number is the largest. You continue to make racist and nationalist remarks. In this document, most of the data on Chinese men and foreign women are not sure about the source.It's just him.Bablos939 (talk) 02:48, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I propose as much as I can to avoid a fight. Agree to contribute only to areas that can be described on the basis of academic data. Do we agree?Bablos939 (talk) 02:55, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I came here to send a message of help and to improve the mistakes. Wikipedia does not want misinterpreted academic material.

The link posted alo says -> Though common muslims have left no written accounts. a rich oral tradition relates how Han women married muslim men in the early times of settlement. However, as Muslim grew steadily in numbers and the initial period of a general policy of exogamous marriage only lasted a short time ".

There is no written account, lasted for only a short timet, only a oral tradition. Where are the descendants of these Han people married to muslim from the Tang dynasty like the Hui Chinese from Ming dynasty?

The only real hardcore evidence are Hui Chinese from the 14th century. Genetic article of Hui Chinese muslims shows 6.7% West Eurasian mtDNA https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/21/12/2265/1071048

And places where Muslim populations in Qinghai, Guangzhou, Liaoning, Yunnan have from 1.4%, 2.1 % west Eurasian mtDNA in Chinese cities (and possibly 5.2% west Eurasian mtDNA from Qinghai (

Plenty of Chinese text shows Persian/Iranian/Sogdian women married Chinese men and plenty of movies about it too. I can If you don't mind I may even post Chinese text and use google translations but now sure if it's allowed here. The mtDNA generally relateds with Middle easteners.

Here is West Eurasia mtDNA map. https://www.researchgate.net/profil...n-and-South-Asian-mtDNA-pools-Partial-map.png

I'm no sockpuppet you can ask the ISP checkers. Check Montalk123 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Montalk123 with Bablos. 41.34.93.140 (talk) 03:32, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * You Must read it. 'Wikipedia:No original research' you comply with Wikipedia rules.and You're saying the wrong thing without even getting the point. This is a document about international marriage.

I know you are using IP because you were blocked in the past. I don't want to be involved in any more discussions.If there is no direct academic evidence, it must be deleted. If there is academic direct evidence, it should be contributed.Bablos939 (talk) 03:47, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Correct. No original research. Like Watersinfalls said to Bablos939, manipulating the text to say only Han Chinese females when it mentioned both genders marrying. That is original research 

More helpful knowledge to everyone. Hope this helps. mtDNA it's Mitochondrial DNA which traces maternal genetic lineages. There is genetic evidence of maternal caucasian ancestry which shows there is marriage to west eurasian females.

Bablos939, according to the text it says this.... " Tang Dynasty Muslim arrivals in China during the Tang and Song Dynasties were from all accounts male. It is hard to find evidence of females coming with them.

but than you left out this ( original research again)

" Though common muslims have left no written accounts. a rich oral tradition relates how Han women married muslim men in the early times of settlement. However, as Muslim grew steadily in numbers and the initial period of a general policy of exogamous marriage only lasted a short time "

It is hard to find evidence of females coming with them. ( According to whom ? Any historical historian says this or is that just the book authors own opinion. On the other hand you have historical evidence of medieval Chinese author claiming a lot of Muslim women and Iranian were found in Guangzhou )

Again have a look at Iranians women history in China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranians_in_China#Song_dynasty

There's like so much record of large numbers of Iranian women in the Song dynasty, Tang dynasty and even before Tang dynasty, Southern Han had a lot of records of Persian women

" Muslim women in Guangzhou were called either Persian women 波斯婦 or Pusaman 菩薩蠻 菩萨蛮 according to Zhu Yu (author)'s book book "Pingzhou ke tan" 萍洲可談 which may be from "Mussulman" or "Bussulman" which means Muslim in Persian.[42][43][44][45][46][47] [48] Pusaman was also the name of a tune 樂府 about female dancers sent as tribute to China.[49][50][51][52] "

One book source doesn't have the right to represent everything in a misleading way.

Someone posted a link and I came in check. I came only to help, you can check. I also did some review of Bablos939 contribution which are biased and came here. 41.34.93.140 (talk) 04:21, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * An author opinion does not mean is based on facts. Your google book source says is based from oral traditions, not based on muslim medieval accounts. Where as from Chinese medieval accounts so there were were many different types of foreign women married to Chinese men, Chinese nobles, Chinese emperor.


 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranians_in_China#Southern_Han
 * Source: Volume 11 of University of California publications in Semitic philology. University of California Press. p. 407. Retrieved January 4, 2012.
 * " At least from the tenth to the twelfth century, Persian women were to be found in Canton, in the former period observed among the inmates of the harem of Liu Ch'ang, Emperor of Southern Han,'2 and in the latter seen as typically wearing great numbers of earrings and cursed with quarrelsome dispositions."


 * Of course you didn't include this in the interracial marriage of western region. Besides text about foreigners marrying Chinese women are not even from the western regions but regular cities


 * Source https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YT-kBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA150


 * Before the An Lushan rebellion (756-763). Dogdian-Chinese intermarriages were were rare (Rong 2001: 132-135). After the rebellion, however, Sogdian-Chinese marriages became more and more common and Sogdians gragually lost their ethnic identities and became Sinicized (Chen 2001: 195-20 )


 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdia#Commerce_and_slave_trade
 * Sogdian slave girls and their Chinese male owners made up the majority of Sogdian female-Chinese male pairings, while free Sogdian women were the most common spouse of Sogdian men. A smaller number of Chinese women were paired with elite Sogdian men.
 * Out of the....... Sogdian man-and-woman pairings made up eighteen out of twenty-one marriages according to existing documents


 * Source: Les sogdiens en Chine
 * " The only exceptions are very high-ranking Sogdian officials who married Chinese wives.67 He concludes that most Sogdian men took Sogdian wives, and we may surmise that the pairings between Chinese men and Sogdian women "


 * Sogdian and Chinese merchants regularly traded in slaves in and around Turpan during the Tang dynasty. Turpan under Tang dynasty rule was a center of major commercial activity between Chinese and Sogdian merchants. There were many inns in Turpan. Some provided Sogdian sex workers with an opportunity to service the Silk Road merchants, since the official histories report that there were markets in women at Kucha and Khotan. Tang poetry Sogdian girls also frequently appear as serving maids in the taverns and inns of the capital Chang'an.


 * Evidence suggests there's plenty of evidence during the Tang dynasty that Chinese men married foreign women even if they were traded as slaves is still count as marriages. And Tang dynasty emperor (including nobles, officials if you want me to add sources ) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heqin#Tang_dynasty married plenty foreign female like Tibetan, Khitan, Korean, Turkic. 41.34.93.140 (talk) 05:32, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I mostly agree with Bablos939. Summarizing the discussion situation

(Fact) 1)Tang Dynasty Muslim arrivals in China during the Tang and Song Dynasties were from all accounts male. It is hard to find evidence of females coming with them.// many of them had married Chinese women. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a many them had married chinese&f=false

2)Song Dynasty During the Song Dynasty, many Chinese women (some of noble origin) married foreign merchants. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a many them had married chinese&f=false

3)Yuan Dynasty The great majority of Muslims who came to the East during the Yuan Dynasty were male ,only a few from the upper-class stratum brought their familiy members with them. so it was quite common for a Muslim to marry a Chinese wife. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a many them had married chinese&f=false


 * They also came to Korea as well. Yet you delete all stuff focused on Korean women. This one talks about Muslim men marrying Korean women in the Yuan. It will show your true objectivity,do you agree with including this about Korean women along with the above about Chinese women?

https://books.google.com/books?id=PDjWpqU55eMC&pg=PA53&dq=muslim+koryo+beauties&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiC6sXT8tvpAhUMgnIEHYfpAHoQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=muslim%20koryo%20beauties&f=false

4)People's Republic of China According to Sociologist Deng Weizhi's research,90% of Chinese international marriages consist of Chinese wives and foreign husbands, and only less than 10% involve Chinese husbands with foreign wives "International marriage in China". Liberation Daily News (Deng Weizhi). 2009. More recently, there has been a surge in Chinese-foreign marriages in mainland China, with data showing these types of marriages are more common in women than in men. In 2010, there were almost 40,000 women registered in Chinese-foreign marriages in mainland China. In comparison, there were less than 12,000 men registered in these types of marriages in the same year. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0920203X13492791 https://theasiadialogue.com/2014/02/10/chinese-foreign-marriage-in-mainland-china/ http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.915.6769&rep=rep1&type=pdf

5)'During the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period (Wudai) (907–960), there are examples of Persian women marrying Chinese emperors. Some Chinese officials from the Song Dynasty era also married women from Dashi (Arabia)'

6) Most incomer were Han women who married Hui men.https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=BwuSpFiOFfYC&pg=PA31&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q&f=false


 * Yet the page also memtions Han men marrying Hui women and you totally deleted that part.

1)~6) This part can be inserted in the text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maomao4321 (talk • contribs) 09:57, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

(Unknown)

1)From the tenth to twelfth century, Persian women were to be found in Guangzhou (Canton), some of them in the tenth century like Mei Zhu in the harem of the Emperor Liu Chang, and in the twelfth century large numbers of Persian women lived there, noted for wearing multiple earrings and "quarrelsome dispositions".[240][241] Some scholars did not differentiate between Persian and Arab, and some say that the Chinese called all women coming from the Persian Gulf "Persian wome' We can't check the source at all. (C) Genetic evidence shows Persian women intermarried with the Cantonese men of Guangzhou. Yao Yonggang et al. reported that Kivisild detected one W mtDNA out of 69 Guangzhou Cantonese population, a common Middle Eastern and Iranian marker.

It is impossible to confirm with the information(of link) now known.

(None Fact)

1)Genetic evidence shows Persian women intermarried with the Cantonese men of Guangzhou. Yao Yonggang et al. reported that Kivisild detected one W mtDNA out of 69 Guangzhou Cantonese population, a common Middle Eastern and Iranian marker. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384943/

2) IP User claimMaomao4321 (talk) 09:49, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * ' We all know Chinese men, Korean men, Asian men are treated horribly in the western media. '

I am Asian. but Plz Don't distort academic material with damage consciousness.

First of all, be familiar with the rules https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable_sources

1) Other wikipedia text cannot be source.

2) Other wikipedia text  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranians_in_China#Southern_Han) Sources are not academic at all and are unreliable. (ex) https://kknews.cc/history/epg26yy.html) 'Questionable sources are those that have a poor reputation for checking the facts, lack meaningful editorial oversight, or have an apparent conflict of interest.[9] Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely considered by other sources to be extremist or promotional, or that rely heavily on unsubstantiated gossip, rumor or personal opinion. Questionable sources should be used only as sources for material on themselves, such as in articles about themselves; see below. They are not suitable sources for contentious claims about others.' and What does it have to do with international marriage? You continue to do your own research without any academic books.


 * You are misleading and cherrypicking. kknews isn't the main source on that article. Valerie Hansen's article is the main source on Sogdian slave girls and prostitutes purchased by Chinese men.


 * http://history.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/hansen-silk-road-trade.pdf

3) In international marriage information, this book does not contain gender. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YT-kBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA150#v=onepage&q&f=false

4)Sogdian is not Muslim.


 * Who said Sogdians were Muslim? This is interracial marriage not interreligious marriage. You expose you agenda again. Sogdians are another race.

Tang Dynasty Muslim arrivals in China during the Tang and Song Dynasties were from all accounts male. It is hard to find evidence of females coming with them.// many of them had married Chinese women. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a many them had married chinese&f=false

https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a many them had married chinese&f=false

5) According to 王書奴, there were numerous Muslim and Persian merchants during the Tang Dynasty, and they purchased Chinese prostitutes. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=6bXTBAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=中國娼妓史&hl=ko&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj62ZqzkdvpAhWaP3AKHUcTAoQQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=中國娼妓史&f=false

If you were neutral, you had to contribute to this too.

You are ruining the overall debate as well as the over-extended analysis.Maomao4321 (talk) 09:51, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

And according to sources on the Sogdia article, Sogdian women were purchased by Chinese. Will you include that here or will you delete it wth fake reasons again? I'm also not the ip but you, Maomao4321 talk the same broken English as Bablos939. That coincidence aside, it renders you unable to edit or add content without another editor proofreading and checking all that you add. Watersinfalls (talk) 15:34, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I completely agree with editor LaTeeDa and Watersinfalls with Bablos939 writing original research. I also see misinterpretating academic sources by not having a neutral point of view.


 * Wow. Talk about Maomao4321 being exact 100% identical to Bablos939. A new user with no editing history comes making the exact same points as Bablos939 and have the same Korean link translations. A sockpuppet investigation is needed in this case to know if someone is trying to create fake concensus.

Maomao4321 are Blablos939 making difficult by posting links that are no accurate and than go to say there's no evidence for this and that. He is making it difficult and giving me a headache.

(Fact) 1)Tang Dynasty Muslim arrivals in China during the Tang and Song Dynasties were from all accounts male. It is hard to find evidence of females coming with them.// many of them had married Chinese women. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a many them had married chinese&f=false Wrong.

No.1 ) You didn't even bother to check the link is wrong, it is about Yuan dynasty not Tang dynast. 100% prove that Maomao4321 is Bablos939, what are the chances that two people can make the same mistakes without checking. The first link (which is in Korean version) talks only about Yuan dynasty.

No.2 ) "Tang and Song Dynasties were from all accounts male...." FALSE. That is Maria Jaschok, own authors opinion. She said that based only on oral tradtion NOT HISTORICAL RECORD. If there is historical record evidence for this fact than you would have posted rather than cherrypicking out a opinion. Where are the muslim accounts of statistic in marriages ?

No.3 ) Saying there's no evidence of Muslim female during Tang dynasty that's what this

The Silk Road Encyclopedia https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UgOwDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT763
 * " Persian women who worked at publich houses in Chang'an during the Tang dynasty. A large number of Persian women were hired to entertain guests...... these women were as Huji.....Huji appear a suprising number of times in the work of Li Bai and other poets from Tang dynasty"

The History of Customs in Sui, Tang and Five Dynasties By Li Shi https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jCOKDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT62
 * "At the time a large of foreign business living Chang'an and Luoyang, Guangzhou, Yangzhou and other places.... There are many wine cellars in various shops opened by Hun people "
 * " Most of the wine cellars are set up by people from Central Asia and Persians. "
 * "Because of the wine cellar, the waiters are mostly women who are good at singing and dancing, so they are called Hu Ji wine cellar "

2)Song Dynasty During the Song Dynasty, many Chinese women (some of noble origin) married foreign merchants. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a many them had married chinese&f=false

Wrong.

More Assumptions again from Maria. NOT RECORD or anything. Where is the information to accurately say many Chinese women ? Surely there be descendants of those in today Guangzhou and other or even genetic evidence for it which there is 0%.

You look at this genetic https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2886054/
 * Y-chromosome haplogroup frequency distribution in the 3 EC high-risk populations, 20 Chinese Hans and 4 minority nationalities.


 * Which shows there is 0% western eurasian haplogroup in Guangzhou/Guangdong

The only realible information from the book source you used are all those recorded cases. The fact is even the MAJORITY OF HUI CHINESE have Chinese paternal DNA not West Eurasian male Y-DNA. Meaning More than 2/3 of the Hui Chinese male ancestors are nothing more but converted Han Chinese lying about being descendant of Muslims. Genetic evidence for an East Asian origin of Chinese Muslim populations Dongxiang and Hui ( Predominately East genetic origin ) https://www.nature.com/articles/srep38656


 * " There is a long-going debate on the genetic origin of Chinese Muslim populations, such as Uygur, Dongxiang, and Hui. However, genetic information for those Muslim populations except Uygur is extremely limited. In this study, we investigated the genetic structure and ancestry of Chinese Muslims by analyzing 15 autosomal short tandem repeats in 652 individuals from Dongxiang, Hui, and Han Chinese populations in Gansu province. Both genetic distance and Bayesian-clustering methods showed significant genetic homogeneity between the two Muslim populations and East Asian populations, suggesting a common genetic ancestry. Our analysis found no evidence of substantial gene flow from Middle East or Europe into Dongxiang and Hui people during their Islamization. The dataset generated in present study are also valuable for forensic identification and paternity tests in China. "


 * Our analysis found no evidence of substantial gene flow from Middle East or Europe into Dongxiang and Hui people during their Islamization
 * That's one genetic study

3)Yuan Dynasty The great majority of Muslims who came to the East during the Yuan Dynasty were male ,only a few from the upper-class stratum brought their familiy members with them. so it was quite common for a Muslim to marry a Chinese wife. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a many them had married chinese&f=false Wrong again.

More assumptions again from same book source the same book source. Though common muslims have left no written accounts. a rich oral tradition relates how Han women married muslim men in the early times of settlement. However, as Muslim grew steadily in numbers and the initial period of a general policy of exogamous marriage only lasted a short time " Only a few from upper-class?? again. More assumptions. Unless there is historical record or even genetic evidence to prove which you obvious don't have. IF THERE'S NO WRITTEN ACCOUNT than why should a author opinion based on fact.


 * To say that only a few women is extremely misleading especially Genetic article of Hui Chinese muslims shows 6.7% West Eurasian mtDNA (already posted a link ). Meaning 7 out of 93 Hui Chinese have a Caucasian maternal ancestry.
 * Source.. Different Matrilineal Contributions to Genetic Structure of Ethnic Groups in the Silk Road Region in China
 * https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/21/12/2265/1071048
 * Previous studies have shown that there were extensive genetic admixtures in the Silk Road region. In the present study, we analyzed 252 mtDNAs of five ethnic groups (Uygur, Uzbek, Kazak, Mongolian, and Hui) from Xinjiang Province, China
 * western Eurasian-specific haplogroup frequency was observed, with the highest frequency present in Uygur (42.6%) and Uzbek (41.4%) samples, followed by Kazak (30.2%), Mongolian (14.3%), and Hui (6.7%).
 * While Caucasian paternal ancestry is found to be 30 out of 70. The ratio is roughly 1:4


 * https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rsos.190358
 * According to historical records, ethnic Hui in China obtained substantial genetic components from western Eurasian populations during their Islamization. However, some scholars believed that the ancestry of Hui people were native Chinese populations.
 * The paternal Y chromosomal STR clustering has put Hui of Liaoning and Ningxia into the group of Han Chinese and Tibeto-Burman populations7.


 * However, the majority of Dongxiang and Hui samples share very similar membership with other East Asian populations, revealing a common genetic makeup.


 * https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.23823
 * The massive assimilation of indigenous East Asian populations in the origin of Muslim Hui people inferred from paternal Y chromosome


 * Abstract


 * Objectives
 * The Hui people are the adherents of Muslim faith and distributing throughout China. There are two contrasting hypotheses about the origin and diversification of the Hui people, namely, the demic diffusion involving the mass movement of people or simple cultural diffusion.
 * Materials and methods
 * We collected 621 unrelated male individuals from 23 Hui populations all over China. We comprehensively genotyped more than 100 informative Y‐chromosomal single nucleotide polymorphisms and 17 Y‐chromosomal short tandem repeats (STRs) on those samples.

'':Results
 * Co‐analyzed with published worldwide populations, our results suggest the origin of Hui people has involved massive assimilation of indigenous East Asians with about 70% in total of the paternal ancestry could be traced back to East Asia and the left 30% to various regions in West Eurasia.''

Discussion
 * The genetic structure of the extant Hui populations was primarily shaped by the indigenous East Asian populations as they contribute the majority part of the paternal lineages of Hui people. The West Eurasian admixture was probably a sex‐biased male‐driven process since we have not found such a high proportion of West Eurasian gene flow on autosomal STRs and maternal mtDNA.

In conclusion most paternal lineages in Hui are Chinese men.

4)People's Republic of China According to Sociologist Deng Weizhi's research,90% of Chinese international marriages consist of Chinese wives and foreign husbands, and only less than 10% involve Chinese husbands with foreign wives "International marriage in China". Liberation Daily News (Deng Weizhi). 2009. More recently, there has been a surge in Chinese-foreign marriages in mainland China, with data showing these types of marriages are more common in women than in men. In 2010, there were almost 40,000 women registered in Chinese-foreign marriages in mainland China. In comparison, there were less than 12,000 men registered in these types of marriages in the same year. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0920203X13492791https://theasiadialogue.com/2014/02/10/chinese-foreign-marriage-in-mainland-china/http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.915.6769&rep=rep1&type=pdf

I never cared about this part all. My problem with you is manipulation of other sources.

5)'During the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period (Wudai) (907–960), there are examples of Persian women marrying Chinese emperors. Some Chinese officials from the Song Dynasty era also married women from Dashi (Arabia)'

Yes, they were historically recorded as accurate. There's written record for it too.

6) Most incomer were Han women who married Hui men.https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=BwuSpFiOFfYC&pg=PA31&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q&f=false (Unknown) '''1)From the tenth to twelfth century, Persian women were to be found in Guangzhou (Canton), some of them in the tenth century like Mei Zhu in the harem of the Emperor Liu Chang, and in the twelfth century large numbers of Persian women lived there, noted for wearing multiple earrings and "quarrelsome dispositions".[240][241] Some scholars did not differentiate between Persian and Arab, and some say that the Chinese called all women coming from the Persian Gulf "Persian wome' We can't check the source at all. (C) Genetic evidence shows Persian women intermarried with the Cantonese men of Guangzhou. Yao Yonggang et al. reported that Kivisild detected one W mtDNA out of 69 Guangzhou Cantonese population, a common Middle Eastern and Iranian marker. It is impossible to confirm with the information(of link) now known.

Most does not mean all it means majority but that doesn't give you the right to remove Chinese men foreign women or put it like it's non-existannt.

Your not looking at the sources properly. I suggest you look here, links can all be found here rather me picking out a huge number of links. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranians_in_China

Walter Joseph Fischel (1951). Walter Joseph Fischel (ed.). Semitic and Oriental studies: a volume presented to William Popper, professor of Semitic languages, emeritus, on the occasion of his seventy-fifth birthday, October 29, 1949. Volume 11 of University of California publications in Semitic philology. University of California Press. p. 407. Retrieved January 4, 2012. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=FTcGAQAAIAAJ&dq=At+least+from+the+tenth+to+the+twelfth+century,+Persian+women+were+to+be+found+in+Canton,+in+the+former+period+observed+among+the+inmates+of+the+harem+of+Liu+Ch'ang,+Emperor+of+Southern+Han,'2+and+in+the+latter+seen+as+typically+wearing+great+numbers+of+earrings+and+cursed+with+quarrelsome+dispositions.&q=inmates+harem&redir_esc=y
 * At least from the tenth to the twelfth century, Persian women were to be found in Canton, in the former period observed among the inmates of the harem of Liu Ch'ang, Emperor of Southern Han,'2 and in the latter seen as typically wearing great numbers of earrings and cursed with quarrelsome dispositions.

Memoirs of the Research Department of the Toyo Bunko (the Oriental Library), Issue 2. Japan: The Toyo Bunko. 1928. p. 34. Retrieved January 4, 2012. 63
 * It was recorded that "The Po- ssu-fu at Kuang-chou make holes all round their ears. There are some who wear more than twenty ear-rings."[27] Descriptions of the sexual activities between Liu Chang and the Persian woman in the Song dynasty book the "Ch'ing-i-lu" by T'ao Ku were so graphic that the "Memoirs of the Research Department of the Toyo Bunko (the Oriental Library), Issue 2" refused to provide any quotes from it while discussing the subject.[28] Liu had free time with the Persian women by delegating the task of governing to others.[29] Multiple women originating from the Persian Gulf lived in Guangzhou's foreign quarter, they were all called "Persian women"

History of Persian women in Song dynasty Chinese text

宋史硏究會 中華叢書委員會, 1958 - History " 又宋莊季裕鷄肋編,卷中亦云:「廣州波斯婦,繞耳皆穿穴,帶環」由「城外蕃漢數萬家」,可知不僅蕃商僑居,郎其妻女亦移居來華. 會要刑法二云:「廣州毎年月戊子條云,一「左藏庫副使提舉廣州修城張節愛言:〔中略)城外蕃漢數萬家,悉爲賊席捲而去. 至神宗熙寧 ...

Google Translation (is not accurate, I could make a better translation but than I could be accused of misinterpreting )

Also made by Songzhuang Jiyu Chicken Ribs, the volume is also in the cloud: `` Guangzhou Persian women, all around the ears wear holes, with rings  from `` tens of thousands of Tibetan and Han families outside the city . . Will ask for the criminal law Eryun: "Every year in Guangzhou, the Zizitiaoyun, a" Zuo Cangku deputy mentioned the Xiucheng Zhangjie Aiyan in Guangzhou: (Middle Strategy) tens of thousands of Hans outside the city, all of whom swept away as thieves. To Shenzong Xining ...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=baZeDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT60&dq Persian women were recorded in Southern Han, Tang dynasty, Song dynasty. They still even recorded even during the early Southern Song Dynasty which the Jin dynasty had conquered Northern China.

(十七)波斯婦南宋初期莊綽之《雞肋編》(《說郛》二十七所收)有云:廣州波斯婦繞耳皆穿穴帶環,有二十餘枚者. 耳環為舊聖(Sâsân)王朝時代波斯婦人間非常愛用之裝飾品也(Spiegel; Eranische Alterthumskunde. Bd. III,s.659. )至薩拉聖時代,伊斯蘭教徒

Translation:

(17) The Persian woman Zhuang Chuo's "Chicken Ribs" (collected on the 27th chapter of "Shuoqi") in the early Southern Song Dynasty had Yun: Guangzhou Persian women wore acupuncture points and rings around their ears, and there were more than 20 of them. Earrings are ornaments that are very used by Persian women in the old Saint (Sâsân) dynasty (Spiegel; Eranische Alterthumskunde. Bd. III, s. 659.) to the time of Sarah, Islamic

Haplogroup W (mtDNA) is a maternal marker common common in west Asian females and Iranian females population. Haplogroup W is believed to have originated around 23,900 years ago in Western Asia. You can see is prevalent in Persia (not Afghanistan)

I could care less about the point is there many Persian women there and so intermarriage is possible. And there records of Chinese emperors, nobles, officials have married.

Source: Memoirs of the Research Departmen
 * " At the foreign quarter, there lited of course many foreign women , and they were called by the Chinese Po - ssu - fu"

2) IP User claimMaomao4321 (talk) 09:49, 30 May 2020 (UTC) We all know Chinese men, Korean men, Asian men are treated horribly in the western media I am Asian. but Plz Don't distort academic material with damage consciousness.

Wether your Asian or not, you behaviour is like one of those previous non-Asian editors that are making anti-Asian male nationalistic editing, in attempt to humiliate Asian men by only editing info of Asian women, which 100% suit their agenda. The point is they don't care if your Chinese or Korean, they have racial nationalist editing agenda of making Asian men bottom of the bottom.

If your Asian editor (which I believe Korean), it doesn't surprise me, I've only ever seen Asians degrade other Asian, you never see white men putting down white men, or any other men of race putting down other race men. I mean look at your edit. Your one the one distored academic material as pointed out by

Watersinfalls User:Bablos939 is writing original research not in the citations.

LaTeeDa See WP:TPYES, this isn't the way references should be used on talk pages Your edit were also removed Bamnamu and John B123

First of all, be familiar with the rules https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable_sources''' 1) Other wikipedia text cannot be source.

2) Other wikipedia text (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranians_in_China#Southern_Han) Sources are not academic at all and are unreliable.  ' 3) In international marriage information, this book does not contain gender. 'https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YT-kBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA150#v=onepage&q&f=false

The book source says this " Before the An Lushan rebellion (756-763). Dogdian-Chinese intermarriages were were rare (Rong 2001: 132-135). After the rebellion, however, Sogdian-Chinese marriages became more and more common and Sogdians gragually lost their ethnic identities and became Sinicized (Chen 2001: 195-20 ) "

And plenty of other sources shows evidences of gender marriages, mainly Chinese men Sogdian women

'4)Sogdian is not Muslim. Tang Dynasty Muslim arrivals in China during the Tang and Song Dynasties were from all accounts male. It is hard to find evidence of females coming with them.// many of them had married Chinese women. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a many them had married chinese&f=false

WRONG AND FALSE AGAIN Source: Bukhara, the Eastern Dome of Islam: Urban Development, Urban Space ... https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sVgtKQdJrTMC&pg=PA18

"Soon after this many of the Sogdians, who had converted in masses to Islam, supported the Abbasid "revolution- "

And for your info" The Abbasid Revolution, also called the Movement of the Men of the Black Raiment, was the overthrow of the Umayyad Caliphate (661–750 CE) "

5) According to 王書奴, there were numerous Muslim and Persian merchants during the Tang Dynasty, and they purchased Chinese prostitutes.  https://books.google.co.kr/books?id...3AKHUcTAoQQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=中國娼妓史&f=false

What? You added some link but not text and I wouldn't be surprised. But translate the text here first. If you were neutral, you would be talking about Bablos393 should also contribute Korean prostitutes not just Chinese prostitutes. Also contribute Korean women and foreign men. Judging from the editing history of Bablos393 is basically about using Chinese women with foreign men. If you can do it I don't see why I and others can't do the same for Korean wome and foreign men.

Your intention is 100% clear, name me ONE EDIT history you made that isn't about Chinese women. If your interested we can work together on editing overseas Chinese women and overseas Korean women prostitutes and marriage with foreign men. Just to be fair both side. I won't do it yet For example: Koreans in the Persian Gulf: Policies and International Relations


 * https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GZD4CgAAQBAJ&pg=PT200&dq=Korean+prostitutes+australia&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj58aDS-tvpAhVyo3EKHQLeDogQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=Korean prostitutes australia&f=false


 * Large number of South Korean sex workers and entertainers to foreign destistination such as the Persian Guld metropoloist of Dubai... (Korea Times published as Exporter of Prostitutions ( June 18, 2012 ) 10% of Korean prosititutes work overseas, Campaign to kick Korean prostitutes out Australia " Korean times, August 31 "

Should we go to the admin board to see if you are comitting Nationalist editing. There's like 100% edit evidence of you doing that.But if you are allowed to continue to this, than I don't see why I and others shouldn't do the same with Korean women.

You are ruining the overall debate as well as the over-extended analysis.Maomao4321 (talk) 09:51, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I find this really interesting coming from a account that just decided to step in and write the exact same thing and make the same mistakes as Bablos393.Saying I'm ruining the debate when all I see is manipulated added information.First there needs to be a sockpuppet investigation before we should even allow this fake concensus going on.

The points MaoMao4321 made are basically 100% the same as Bablos393, but far enough they both didn't even bother to check the first link which doesn't even says the same thing. How did MaoMao4321 even know what to say if the first link basically only says about Yuan dynasty. There should be a investigation before there is even concensus agreement. Since you accuse me of Sockpuppet, would you like to see a sockpuppet investigation and I would also like to check eachothers account.

I don't mind who goes first to check as long as look ask the ISP checkers see who's making block evasions and who is creating sockpuppet accounts to gain concensus. Your editing history https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Interracial_marriage&action=history

Based on Disruptive editing you should be given a 3RR warning for reverting 5 times in 24 hours, you escaped but it will be given after I report it, but my advice is to check ISP sockpuppets. Are you wiling to do this or ignore it? I don't want the possibilty (the evidence is very strong) of a fake concensus from a sockpuppet. 102.44.199.16 (talk) 17:54, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay. So I want to end our conversation here. I do not wish to continue this disputes because of sock accusations on both sides. There is no point to drag this.. This is too much. Keep in mind my current Wikipedia account is 102.44.199.16, it was previously 41.34.93.140. I'm not a sockpuppet and have nothing to hide. I only came to give friendly advice and to improve the quality of our discussion. I believe we must first see if there's no sockpuppetry involved to create fake concensus. Right now 2 editors here (Watersinfalls including me) are confused if Maomao and Bablos are the same person based on many strong evidences. I'm not even sure if I'm replying to a previous blocked sockpuppet, which is pointless if that's the case. 102.44.199.16 (talk) 18:36, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I have no idea what other users(ID) are. But you do not have an ID. Because your ID would have been blocked.

You are not following the Wikipedia rules at all. You are doing your own research that is close to your own delusion. Your lie trembles. You are delusional, denying academic material that does not suit your taste. You are ignoring academic material, only your delusion.

A) https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YT-kBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA150#v=onepage&q&f=false 'Sogdian-Chineses marriages became more common and Sogdians gradually lost their ethnic identities and became Sinicized.'

This book only says... But you are distorting and highlighting only the Chinese male.

B) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384943/

This side does not speak of intermarriage at all. Stop lying and your little research.

C) https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false During the Song Dynasty, many Chinese women (some of noble origin) married foreign merchants.

I believe you will not deny this.

D) https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=BwuSpFiOFfYC&pg=PA31&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q&f=false Most incomer were Han women who married Hui men.

I believe you will not deny this too.

E)https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false The great majority of Muslims who came to the East during the Yuan Dynasty were male ,only a few from the upper-class stratum brought their familiy members with them. so it was quite common for a Muslim to marry a Chinese wife.

I believe you will not deny this too.

F)https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0920203X13492791 https://theasiadialogue.com/2014/02/10/chinese-foreign-marriage-in-mainland-china/ http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.915.6769&rep=rep1&type=pdf

More recently, there has been a surge in Chinese-foreign marriages in mainland China, with data showing these types of marriages are more common in women than in men. In 2010, there were almost 40,000 women registered in Chinese-foreign marriages in mainland China. In comparison, there were less than 12,000 men registered in these types of marriages in the same year.

The majority of Chinese citizens registered as entering into Chinese-foreign marriages in mainland China are women. Table 1 indicates that over 8,000 female citizens of mainland China registered a marriage with a foreign spouse in mainland China in 1979. That figure rose steadily throughout the 1980s and 1990s and reached a peak of nearly 68,000 women in 2001. Since then, the number has declined steadily to reach a figure of slightly less than 40,000 women in 2010, which is lower than in the mid-1990s

I believe you will not deny this if you are normal.

I propose an agreement. It only contributes to academic materials that can be checked on the Internet site.

You do not violate this rule. No original researchBablos939 (talk) 15:13, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I wrote above on the premise that you deserve a discussion. But you are not entitled to discussion at all. You are connecting the subject with someone who has nothing to do with me. If you are in doubt, I am confident to undergo a technical examination. But ...  Please provide an ID that has been active for a long time. Right Now!! Why continue to use IP address??? And do not discuss topics that are not related to international marriage. Why do you keep talking about Korea????? Why does Korea come out when discussing international marriages in China??? or Did you have more Korean women than Chinese women in mainland China during Yuan Dynasty??????? It is your technique to make a few cases equal to many. However, the current version does not have many cases. I doubt his(Watersinfalls) relationship with you. Once you have released your long active ID.Bablos939 (talk) 15:28, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

1. It's now apparent you aren't interested in following neutral pov or wikipedia regulations. The reliable source says Korean women were paid en masse to the Yuan dynasty as tribute and taken by Mongolian, Muslim and Uyghur elites as concubines in the Yuan dynasty yet you try to deny it and focus exclusively on Han Chinese women showing your nationalist agenda. There were many Korean women in Yuan dynasty according to this source which is published and written by a historian not a random website. A neutral person would write about both Han and Korean women dispassionately. You delete everything about Korean women marrying and only talk about Han Chinese women. https://books.google.com/books?id=PDjWpqU55eMC&pg=PA53&dq=muslim+koryo+beauties&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiC6sXT8tvpAhUMgnIEHYfpAHoQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=muslim%20koryo%20beauties&f=false
 * Late in the thirteenth century, Qubilai and other Mongol aristocrats began to demand women from elite Koryo families as wives and consorts. Despite initial efforts to avoid these demands, the Korean government eventually responded by establishing government bureaus to organize and control the flow of Koryo women to the Mongol empire.


 * What had begun as the seizure of women as war booty evolved into a complex system of formal tribute between the ruling houses of Koryo and the Mongol Empire. Yuan envoys regularly traveled to Koryo to secure women on behalf of the emperor, who often redistributed them as gifts to leading ministers. Yuan envoys and Yuan officials stationed in Koryo also requested Koryo brides for themselves.


 * The number of Koryo women in Daidu increased steadily over the late thirteenth and first half of the fourteenth centuries. Nearly 1,500 Koryo tribute women are noted in official Yuan and Koryo court annals. The actual number of women was certainly much higher since elite Koryo women nearly always traveled with their own maids and servants. Lesser-known women were not deemed sufficienty significant to merit mention in official records. Many Koreans married their womenfolk to members of the Yuan elite as a way to secure official posts and advance family interests.


 * Mongolian, Muslim, and Uyghur elites appreciated Koryo beauties, and the acquisition of Korean concubines became something of a fad. As one fourteenth-century Chinese observer familiar with the court in Daidu observed:

2.Valerie Hansen's article is the main source on Sogdian slave girls and prostitutes purchased by Chinese men. Specifically mentioning Chinese men and Sogdian slave girls as a common pairing. Sogdia http://history.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/hansen-silk-road-trade.pdf
 * Sogdian and Chinese merchants regularly traded in slaves in and around Turpan during the Tang dynasty. Turpan under Tang dynasty rule was a center of major commercial activity between Chinese and Sogdian merchants. There were many inns in Turpan. Some provided Sogdian sex workers with an opportunity to service the Silk Road merchants, since the official histories report that there were markets in women at Kucha and Khotan.[130] The Sogdian-language contract buried at the Astana graveyard demonstrates that at least one Chinese man bought a Sogdian girl in 639 AD. One of the archaeologists who excavated the Astana site, Wu Zhen, contends that, although many households along the Silk Road bought individual slaves, as we can see in the earlier documents from Niya, the Turpan documents point to a massive escalation in the volume of the slave trade.[131] In 639 a female Sogdian slave was sold to a Chinese man as recorded in an Astana cemetery legal document written in Sogdian.[132] Khotan and Kucha were places where women were commonly sold, with ample evidence of the slave trade in Turfan thanks to contemporary textual sources that have survived.[133][134] In Tang poetry Sogdian girls also frequently appear as serving maids in the taverns and inns of the capital Chang'an.[135]


 * Sogdian slave girls and their Chinese male owners made up the majority of Sogdian female-Chinese male pairings, while free Sogdian women were the most common spouse of Sogdian men. A smaller number of Chinese women were paired with elite Sogdian men. Sogdian man-and-woman pairings made up eighteen out of twenty-one marriages according to existing documents.[134][136]


 * A document dated 731 AD reveals that precisely forty bolts of silk were paid to a certain Mi Lushan, a slave dealing Sogdian, by a Chinese man named Tang Rong (唐榮) of Chang'an, for the purchase of an eleven-year-old girl. A person from Xizhou, a Tokharistani (i.e. Bactrian), and three Sogdians verified the sale of the girl.[134][137]

You denied that these citations contained the text when I proved they existed here. Now you have nothing to say about this either. So what happened to you couldn't find these in the citations now? https://www.google.com/search?&tbm=bks&ei=aHbSXuuCO-OoytMP9Y6-4Aw&q=At+least+from+the+tenth+to+the+twelfth+century%2C+Persian+women+were+to+be+found+in+Canton%2C+in+the+former+period+observed+among+the+inmates+of+Liu+Chang+of+Southern+Han%2C”+and+in+the+latter+seen+as+typically+wearing+great+numbers+of+earrings+and+cursed+with+quarrelsome+dispositions.&oq=At+least+from+the+tenth+to+the+twelfth+century%2C+Persian+women+were+to+be+found+in+Canton%2C+in+the+former+period+observed+among+the+inmates+of+Liu+Chang+of+Southern+Han%2C”+and+in+the+latter+seen+as+typically+wearing+great+numbers+of+earrings+and+cursed+with+quarrelsome+dispositions.
 * At least from the tenth to the twelfth century, Persian women were to be found in Canton, in the former period observed in the harem of Liu Chang of Southern Han,” and in the latter seen as typically wearing great numbers of earrings and cursed with quarrelsome dispositions ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
 * "Song times: 'In the times of Wudai (907—960) the emperors preferred to marry Persian women, and the Song Dynasty official families liked to marry women from Dashi [Arabia] (Li & Feng, 1985:9)."

Watersinfalls (talk) 16:07, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Bablos939, I have caught you doing another lie. You added these to the article.
 * According to Sociologist Deng Weizhi’s research,90% of Chinese international marriages consist of Chinese wives and foreign husbands, and only less than 10% involve Chinese husbands with foreign wives.[255]


 * More recently, there has been a surge in Chinese-foreign marriages in mainland China, with data showing these types of marriages are more common in women than in men. In 2010, there were almost 40,000 women registered in Chinese-foreign marriages in mainland China. In comparison, there were less than 12,000 men registered in these types of marriages in the same year.[256]

Foreign doesn't equal interracial. Many Chinese men from Singapore, Taiwan or sometimes counting Macau and Hong Kong marry women from mainland China (PRC). You added two sentences on Chinese foreign marriage which didn't mention race at all but only men of foreign nationality marrying women of Chinese nationality. Besides that, ethnic minorities in China including Koreans with Chinese citizenship may also be marrying of foreign nationality not just Han women. You tried to sneak this into the article under the guise of interracial. These are the same race, Chinese men with Taiwan, Singapore, Macau or Hong Kong nationality marrying Chinese women from China. https://asiatimes.com/2019/03/hk-china-cross-border-marriages-increasing/ http://d-scholarship.pitt.edu/6571/1/Cichosz_4_20_2011-1.pdf https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1369183X.2019.1585005 https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/33560957.pdf https://theasiadialogue.com/2014/02/10/chinese-foreign-marriage-in-mainland-china/
 * Chinese–foreign marriages registered in mainland China are typically ‘cross-border’ rather than international. The PRC’s marriage registration regulations divide Chinese-foreign marriages into three different categories:


 * marriage between PRC citizens (中国公民) residing in mainland China (内地居民) and Overseas Chinese (华侨), i.e., Chinese citizens who reside in another country
 * marriage between citizens of mainland China and citizens of Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan, i.e., territories that the PRC government claims as part of China, but which have separate legal jurisdictions; and
 * marriage between citizens of mainland China and foreign nationals (外国人, literally people from another country), which may include former PRC citizens who have acquired foreign citizenship (外籍华人).
 * The most common type of Chinese-foreign marriage registered in mainland China until the late 2000s was between a mainland Chinese woman and a man from Hong Kong, Macao or Taiwan. Nearly 8,000 people from Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan married mainland Chinese citizens in 1979. That figure peaked at slightly more than 48,000 in 2003. However, the number of such marriages has been declining, on average, since then. Fewer than 18,000 people from Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan married mainland Chinese citizens in 2010, which is lower than the number of marriages involving ‘foreign nationals’.


 * The gendered character and spatial distribution of Chinese-foreign marriages registered in mainland China points to the localized and changing nature of the new opportunities created by China’s rapid economic growth. It also suggests that many Chinese-foreign marriages may be premised on ‘intracultural’ rather than international relationships, at least when these terms are interpreted in a strict fashion.

The majority of brides sent to South Korea are Koreans.
 * The ‘intracultural’, as opposed to ‘international’, nature of Chinese-foreign marriage is further suggested by data from the Republic of Korea and Australia. Doo-Sub Kim (2010) shows that the number of cross-border marriages registered in South Korea increased from around 5,000 marriages in 1990 to over 40,000 in 2005, with China becoming the main sending country for such marriages by the mid-1990s. Kim does not specify what is meant by the category China and hence whether Chinese spouses could include people from Hong Kong and Macao. However, the majority (over 73 per cent) of the cross-border marriages registered between South Korean and Chinese citizens are marriages between Korean men and Chinese ethnic Korean women from China’s northern provinces of Heilongjiang, Jilin and Liaoning (Kim 2010: 134–5). Data from the Australian Bureau of Statistics (1994–2011) show that in Australia, of the 6,324 marriage registrations in 2011 that involved a spouse born in mainland China, 60 per cent were between two people born in mainland China, up from a low of 46 per cent in 2001.

Even if you exclude these marriages from the figure (Chinese men with citizenship in Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong and Macau and overseas Chinese PRC citizens living abroad in western countries) the statistics for Chinese foreign marriages also includes Chinese men with western countries citizenship. Chinese men born in Australia, Canada or America with those countries citizenship marrying women from China.Watersinfalls (talk) 03:36, 1 June 2020 (UTC)


 * 102.44.199.16/41.34.93.140/ Watersinfalls - Wikipedia:Signs of sock puppetry

'Right now 2 editors here (Watersinfalls including me) are confused if Maomao and Bablos are the same person based on many strong evidences. I'm not even sure if I'm replying to a previous blocked sockpuppet, which is pointless if that's the case'

This discussion only dealt with Chinese marriages. Korea has nothing to do with this discussion. However, these 3 IDs speak Korea at the same time.!!!!

I will report you.

You are hesitating to lie without remorse.

A) http://history.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/hansen-silk-road-trade.pdf

'The few documented pairings of Chinese male owners with young Sogdian girls raise the question how often Sogdian and Chinese families intermarried. The historical record is largely silent on this topic, but Rong Xinjiang has found throughout Tang-dynasty China a total of twenty-one recorded marriages in the seventh century in which one partner was Sogdian, and in eighteen cases, the spouse is also Sogdian. The only exceptions are very high-ranking Sogdian officials who married Chinese wives. 67 He concludes that most Sogdian men took Sogdian wives, and we may surmise that the pairings between Chinese men and Sogdian women were usually between a Chinese male master and a Sogdian female slave.'

Historical data are sparse, and only a handful of cases have been found. Moreover, you are not referring to Sogdian man who is married to a Chinese woman.!!!!!! (The only exceptions are very high-ranking Sogdian officials who married Chinese wives.)

You are distorting the source. !!!!!!

B) http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.915.6769&rep=rep1&type=pdf

'Data from the PRC’s Ministry of Civil Affairs indicate that the most common type of Chinese-foreign marriage registered in mainland China until the late 2000s was between a mainland Chinese woman and a man from Hong Kong, Macao or Taiwan. However, since 2008, marriages between mainland Chinese women and men from other parts of the world have become the most popular type of Chinese-foreign marriage.'

For decades, international marriages in China have been the most frequent cases of marriage between foreign men(other race) and Chinese women.

C)http://rozenbergquarterly.com/the-history-and-context-of-chinese-western-intercultural-marriage-in-modern-and-contemporary-china-from-1840-to-the-21st-century/

'Table 1.1 Comparison of Marriages between Chinese and Foreigners (C-F), Chinese and Oversea Chinese (C-OC), and Chinese and Compatriots from Hong Kong, Taiwan & Macau (C-HTM). In 1979-1989 and 1978-2008'

'Figure 2. Types of Chinese-foreign marriages registered in mainland China, 1979–2010 Sources: ZRGM, Shewai hunyin dengji qingkuang 1979–1981; ZRGM, Sheji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao, waiji huaren, waiguoren de hunyin 1982; ZRGM, Zai hunyin dengji zhong: Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin qingkuang 1983–1984; ZRGM, Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin 1987–1988; ZRGM, Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin dengji qingkuang 1990–1999; and ZRGM, Jiehun dengji qingkuang, jiehun dengji fuwu 2000–2011. Data for 1985 and 1986 are not available.'

Even before 2008, there were over 300,000 marriages between foreigners (other race) and Chinese.!!!!!!

'More Chinese women married outside of China: 90% of Chinese international marriages consist of Chinese wives and foreign husbands, and only less than 10% involve Chinese husbands with foreign wives. This accords with the general world trend, M. Belinda Tucker and Claudia Mitchell-Kernan found that “female outmarriage is higher than male outmarriage for every major racial ethnic group except blacks”[ccxxxv]'

D)https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false During the Song Dynasty, many Chinese women (some of noble origin) married foreign merchants.

https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=BwuSpFiOFfYC&pg=PA31&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q&f=false

Most incomer were Han women who married Hui men.

https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false

The great majority of Muslims who came to the East during the Yuan Dynasty were male ,only a few from the upper-class stratum brought their familiy members with them. so it was quite common for a Muslim to marry a Chinese wife.

I will regard this material as no longer objectionable.

Don't distort reality anymore.Bablos939 (talk) 11:42, 1 June 2020 (UTC)


 * "Historical data are sparse, and only a handful of cases have been found. Moreover, you are not referring to Sogdian man who is married to a Chinese woman.!!!!!! (The only exceptions are very high-ranking Sogdian officials who married Chinese wives.)"

EXCEPTION. You tried deleting everything on Han men marrying other women in the Ming law by claiming since it said it was less you could distort it and claim it was only about Han women marrying out. Yet over her in the article written by Valeria Hanson it says Sogdian women rarely married Chinese women and it was an exception, and most relations between Sogdians and Chinese were between Chinese men and Sogdian slave girls.
 * "but Han men marrying Hui women could also become Hui"


 * Sogdian slave girls and their Chinese male owners made up the majority of Sogdian female-Chinese male pairings,


 * "Even before 2008, there were over 300,000 marriages between foreigners (other race) and Chinese.!!!!!!"

Where's the source liar?
 * "This accords with the general world trend, M. Belinda Tucker and Claudia Mitchell-Kernan found that “female outmarriage is higher than male outmarriage for every major racial ethnic group except blacks”"

And according to this, male outmarriage is higher for everyone except blacks. So that means we can add a statistic about Koreans and it won't be removed by a Korean nationalist sockpuppet, right? The source also doesn't say all of the 90% are interracial. That's original research. And lets see, you have not responded and ignored the part about the huge number of Korean women marrying foreign Musiim men in the Yuan dynasty. https://books.google.com/books?id=PDjWpqU55eMC&pg=PA53&dq=muslim+koryo+beauties&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiC6sXT8tvpAhUMgnIEHYfpAHoQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=muslim%20koryo%20beauties&f=false Late in the thirteenth century, Qubilai and other Mongol aristocrats began to demand women from elite Koryo families as wives and consorts. Despite initial efforts to avoid these demands, the Korean government eventually responded by establishing government bureaus to organize and control the flow of Koryo women to the Mongol empire. What had begun as the seizure of women as war booty evolved into a complex system of formal tribute between the ruling houses of Koryo and the Mongol Empire. Yuan envoys regularly traveled to Koryo to secure women on behalf of the emperor, who often redistributed them as gifts to leading ministers. Yuan envoys and Yuan officials stationed in Koryo also requested Koryo brides for themselves. The number of Koryo women in Daidu increased steadily over the late thirteenth and first half of the fourteenth centuries. Nearly 1,500 Koryo tribute women are noted in official Yuan and Koryo court annals. The actual number of women was certainly much higher since elite Koryo women nearly always traveled with their own maids and servants. Lesser-known women were not deemed sufficienty significant to merit mention in official records. Many Koreans married their womenfolk to members of the Yuan elite as a way to secure official posts and advance family interests. Mongolian, Muslim, and Uyghur elites appreciated Koryo beauties, and the acquisition of Korean concubines became something of a fad. As one fourteenth-century Chinese observer familiar with the court in Daidu observed: The ip 41.34.93.140 has also said you are a sock of Montalk123. Lets get that added to the sockpuppet case investigation. Watersinfalls (talk) 16:55, 1 June 2020 (UTC)


 * You are even distorting the Sockpuppet investigations results.!!!

single-purpose account : Watersinfalls, 41.34.93.140 ,102.44.199.16, Maomao123 All of you except me are single-purpose account. 'A sleeper Watersinfalls (talk+ · tag · contribs · logs · filter log · block log · CA) has been activated to denounce Maomao4321 (talk+ · tag · contribs · logs · filter log · block log · CA) as another sock on my talk page.' I think rather you are attacking me unfairly with 4 accounts.Bablos939 (talk) 11:27, 2 June 2020 (UTC)


 * You make a long story of your lies.

The truth is very simple.

A) PRC's International Marriage

A-1) Even before 2008, there were over 300,000 marriages between foreigners (other race) and Chinese.!!!!!! S:'Table 1.1 Comparison of Marriages between Chinese and Foreigners (C-F), Chinese and Oversea Chinese (C-OC), and Chinese and Compatriots from Hong Kong, Taiwan & Macau (C-HTM). In 1979-1989 and 1978-2008' S:'Figure 2. Types of Chinese-foreign marriages registered in mainland China, 1979–2010 Sources: ZRGM, Shewai hunyin dengji qingkuang 1979–1981; ZRGM, Sheji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao, waiji huaren, waiguoren de hunyin 1982; ZRGM, Zai hunyin dengji zhong: Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin qingkuang 1983–1984; ZRGM, Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin 1987–1988; ZRGM, Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin dengji qingkuang 1990–1999; and ZRGM, Jiehun dengji qingkuang, jiehun dengji fuwu 2000–2011. Data for 1985 and 1986 are not available.'

A-2)'Since 2008, marriages between mainland Chinese women and men from other parts of the world have become the most popular type of Chinese-foreign marriage.'

Among all international marriages, over 80-90% of Chinese women and foreign men are married.

S: ZRGM, Shewai hunyin dengji qingkuang 1979–1981; ZRGM, Sheji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao, waiji huaren, waiguoren de hunyin 1982; ZRGM, Zai hunyin dengji zhong: Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin qingkuang 1983–1984; ZRGM, Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin 1987–1988; ZRGM, Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin dengji qingkuang 1990–1999; ZRGM, Jiehun dengji qingkuang, jiehun dengji fuwu 2000–2011; and Zhonghua quanguo funü lianhedi funü yanjiusuo, Shaanxi sheng funü lianhehui yanjiushi, 1986–1988 nian guonei nüxing gongmin tong waiguoren ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao dengji jiehun renshu, 344

http://rozenbergquarterly.com/the-history-and-context-of-chinese-western-intercultural-marriage-in-modern-and-contemporary-china-from-1840-to-the-21st-century/ http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.915.6769&rep=rep1&type=pdf

B) Tang, Song , Yuan , Ming Dynasty

'Tang Dynasty Muslim arrivals in China during the Tang and Song Dynasties were from all accounts male. It is hard to find evidence of females coming with them.// many of them had married Chinese women.'

'During the Song Dynasty, many Chinese women (some of noble origin) married foreign merchants.'

'The great majority of Muslims who came to the East during the Yuan Dynasty were male ,only a few from the upper-class stratum brought their familiy members with them. so it was quite common for a Muslim to marry a Chinese wife.'

'Most incomer were Han women who married Hui men.'

https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=BwuSpFiOFfYC&pg=PA31&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q&f=false

C) Sogdian ?????

'The few documented pairings of Chinese male owners with young Sogdian girls raise the question how often Sogdian and Chinese families intermarried. The historical record is largely silent on this topic, but Rong Xinjiang has found throughout Tang-dynasty China a total of twenty-one recorded marriages in the seventh century in which one partner was Sogdian, and in eighteen cases, the spouse is also Sogdian. The only exceptions are very high-ranking Sogdian officials who married Chinese wives. 67 He concludes that most Sogdian men took Sogdian wives, and we may surmise that the pairings between Chinese men and Sogdian women were usually between a Chinese male master and a Sogdian female slave.'

The academic evidence is unclear. Also very few.Sogdian men also married Chinese women.

You are just distorting!!

http://history.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/hansen-silk-road-trade.pdf

A) B) : They are all academic materials. But you are intentionally concealing. This material should be inserted in the article. You, of course, do not have the right to talk, but I believe you will agree.

p.s I do not need Colorq but Colorq is a sufficiently academic resource.Bablos939 (talk) 11:44, 2 June 2020 (UTC)


 * single-purpose account : Watersinfalls, 41.34.93.140 ,102.44.199.16, 41.232.35.139 , Buzinezz

They commonly cover up international marriages of Chinese women and exaggerate international marriages of Chinese men. Some of them were blocked before the Sockpuppet investigations. User:Buzinezz reversed the wrong contribution. Their conduct should be nullified. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Buzinezz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/41.232.35.139Bablos939 (talk) 14:48, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Bablos939 is purposefully ignoring the source that says a massive amount of Muslim foreigners in the Yuan dynasty married Korean women. He lied about not being able to find the statements about emperors And the fact that he said according to his own source, that outmarriage of women was higher for every single groups except black people. Meaning Koreans included in the groups whose women outmarry more. You are proving you are a nationalist edit warrior.

Kyung Moon Hwang, a Korean historian who is not a nationalist edit warrior wrote about Korean women in the Yuan. Kyung Moon Hwang says the official number of Korean women in the Yuan is actually a gross underestimation and there were many more.

https://pressroom.usc.edu/kyung-moon-hwang/

https://dornsife.usc.edu/cf/faculty-and-staff/faculty.cfm?pid=1003371

Korean girls in the Yuan are in these sources too. https://www.google.com/search?&tbm=bks&ei=833WXs7hGOuJggfUqYWADg&q=But+with+the+rise+of+the+Yuan+dynasty%2C+the+Korean+girls+began+onee+more+to+be+imported%2C+and+at+last+it+became+part+of+the+&oq=But+with+the+rise+of+the+Yuan+dynasty%2C+the+Korean+girls+began+onee+more+to+be+imported%2C+and+at+last+it+became+part+of+the+&gs_l

https://www.google.com/search?&tbm=bks&ei=qH3WXt25Ae2a_Qa9uYfIDQ&q=the+northerners+%28+men+living+in+North+China+%29+%2C+maid+-+servants+were+without+fail+Kao+-+li+girls+%2C+man+-+servants+were+negroes+.+...+The+male+and+female+Koreans+were+imported+to+China+as+slaves+from+the+T+%27+ang+era+%28+see+%23+%2C+%23+D+%3D+t+%2C+O+%29+%2C+but+as+the+...+But+with+the+rise+of+the+Yüan+dynasty+%2C+the+Korean+girls+began+once+more+to+be+imported+%2C+and+at+last+it+became+part+of+...+who+was+of+Korean+origin+also+kept+many+pretty+Korean+maids+%3B+if+she+found+great+influential+officer+%2C+she+presented+him+...&oq=the+northerners+%28+men+living+in+North+China+%29+%2C+maid+-+servants+were+without+fail+Kao+-+li+girls+%2C+man+-+servants+were+negroes+.+...+The+male+and+female+Koreans+were+imported+to+China+as+slaves+from+the+T+%27+ang+era+%28+see+%23+%2C+%23+D+%3D+t+%2C+O+%29+%2C+but+as+the+...+But+with+the+rise+of+the+Yüan+dynasty+%2C+the+Korean+girls+began+once+more+to+be+imported+%2C+and+at+last+it+became+part+of+...+who+was+of+Korean+origin+also+kept+many+pretty+Korean+maids+%3B+if+she+found+great+influential+officer+%2C+she+presented+him+...&gs_l=

https://www.google.com/search?&tbm=bks&ei=fn3WXrG7LYXL_Qb09a24BA&q=servant+girls+north+korean+china+yuan&oq=servant+girls+north+korean+china+yuan&gs_l=

Bablos939 has not given an explanation for deleting all things about Uyghur women marrying Han Chinese men. Nothing. You exposed your goal right there when you did that. Why were these which were sourced and had no issues deleted other than your nationalist agenda since they were about Chinese men?


 * "Han men also married Turkic Uyghur women in Xinjiang from 1880 to 1949. Sometimes poverty influenced Uyghur women to marry Han men. These marriages were not recognized by local mullahs since Muslim women were not allowed to marry non-Muslim men under Islamic law. This did not stop the women because they enjoyed advantages: they were not subject to Islamic law and not subjected to certain taxes. Uyghur women married to Han men also did not have to wear a veil, and they received their husband's property upon his death. These women were forbidden from having burial in Muslim graves. The children of Han men and Uyghur women were considered to be Uyghur. Some Han soldiers had Uyghur women as temporary wives, and after their service was up, the wife was left behind or sold. If it was possible, sons were taken, and daughters were sold.[224]"


 * "Of the Han Chinese Li family in Quanzhou, Li Nu, the son of Li Lu, visited Hormuz in Persia in 1376, married a Persian or an Arab woman, and brought her back to Quanzhou. He then converted to Islam. Li Nu was the ancestor of the Ming Dynasty reformer Li Chih.[248][249][250]"

Bablos939 lied about not being able to find these statements in the citations
 * "Song times: 'In the times of Wudai (907—960) the emperors preferred to marry Persian women, and the Song Dynasty official families liked to marry women from Dashi [Arabia (Li 8c Feng, 198529)."]


 * "At least from the tenth to the twelfth century, Persian women were to be found in Canton, in the former period observed in the harem of Liu Chang of Southern Han,” and in the latter seen as typically wearing great numbers of earrings and cursed with quarrelsome dispositions ..."

The evidence shows that the majority of intermarriage between Sogdians and Chinese was Chinese men and Sogdian girls and that Sogdian men and Chinese women were in the minority.
 * In Tang poetry Sogdian girls also frequently appear as serving maids in the taverns and inns of the capital Chang'an.

One of the sources also said this. You "concealed" this part because it mentioned Chinese men.
 * "but Han men marrying Hui women could also become Hui"

Talking about single person accounts, that fits you. You only edit about Chinese women in interracial marriage and prostitution while you remove stuff about Korean women doing the same as the ip said. You are engaging in a nationalistic edit war. The ip said what if you two included stuff about Korean and Chinese women intermarriage? And then I agree, what if we add both with sources? And then you ignored and only want to add Chinese women and "conceal" everything about Korean women. You are not interested in neutrality, you are bent on "concealing" everything about Korean women intermarriage while adding things only about Chinese women intermarrying and removing everything about Chinese men. If I offered agree to a neutral third party to edit and add things about both Korean women and Chinese women (and men) you would still delete it. I saw the ip raise the points about Sogdians and about you "concealing" about Korean women and agree with these two points. Your broken English looks like Maomao4321's and use the Korean internet butt mine doesn't look like the others.Watersinfalls (talk) 16:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Break (June 11)

 * The current version of this document is the work of a blocked user.Blocked users have consistently hampered this debate.Bablos939 (talk) 13:58, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

To inflame public, just one word can do it. But to refute it, numerous documents and evidences are required.-Paul Joseph Goebbels- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bablos939 (talk • contribs) 14:36, 11 June 2020 (UTC) (A)Latin America
 *  The current version of this Article is full of false statements from blocked users.: 

'''In South America, although the number of Chinese international marriages is very small, blocked users have exaggerated and overstated.  (A)-1 Cuba''' 'There is anecdotal evidence that Chinese men in Cuba and Peru married or had sexual relationships with white,black,mulatto and Indian women' Alien Nation: Chinese Migration in the Americas from the Coolie Era Through ISBN 978 1 4696 1340 6 https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=ch8VBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA82&dq=indian+coolie+woman+chinese+men&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=indian%20coolie%20woman%20chinese%20men&f=false

(A)-2 Peru 'the men(Chinese) had almost no contact with local women in Peru.' The Chinese in Latin America and the Caribbean https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=xrGShVU6VrgC&pg=PA143&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

(A)-3 Central Trinidad 'Between 1853 and 1866, 2048 Chinese labourers arrived to work on the estates mainly in Central Trinidad, while between 1846-1859 some 1300 Portuguese labourers were recruited from the archipelago of Madeira off the Atlantic coast of North Africa (Ferreira 1994, 17).' http://www.cambridgescholars.com/download/sample/61376

(A)-4 Guyana There are only six cases.

In Guyana, Marriages between Indian women and Chinese men in 1892 numbered only six as reported by Immigration Agent Gladwin. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=e-YYAAAAYAAJ&dq=In+1892,+Immigration+Agent+Gladwin+reported+just+six+marriages+between+Chinese+men+and+Indian+women.&q=1892+six+marriages&redir_esc=y&hl=ko

(A)-5 Mexico We don't know if source really makes that argument. It's mostly false.

(A)-6 Costa Rica It's mostly false. This source (http://www.flavorandfortune.com/dataaccess/article.php?ID=221) is unreliable. This is not academic material.

(A)-7 Jamaica Blocked users tell completely absurd lies. 'Thousands of Chinese men (mostly Hakka) and Indian men married local Jamaican women. The study "Y-chromosomal diversity in Haiti and Jamaica: Contrasting levels of sex-biased gene flow" shows the paternal Chinese haplogroup O-M175 at a frequency of 3.8% in local Jamaicans ( non-Chinese Jamaicans) including the Indian H-M69 (0.6%) and L-M20 (0.6%) in local Jamaicans.[177] Among the country's most notable Afro-Asians are reggae singers Sean Paul, Tami Chynn and Diana King.' This source doesn't say that. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.22090

These false information must be deleted.Bablos939 (talk) 13:54, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

(B)China

'''Most of the international marriages of Chinese people take place between Chinese women and foreign men  (B)-1 Tang Dynasty'''

Muslim arrivals in China during the Tang and Song Dynasties were from all accounts male. It is hard to find evidence of females coming with them.// many of them had married Chinese women. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false

(B)-2 Song Dynasty

During the Song Dynasty, many Chinese women (some of noble origin) married foreign merchants. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false

'''(B)-3 Yuan Dynasty ''' The great majority of Muslims who came to the East during the Yuan Dynasty were male ,only a few from the upper-class stratum brought their familiy members with them. so it was quite common for a Muslim to marry a Chinese wife. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false

(B)-4 Ming Dynasty

'Most incomer were Han women who married Hui men.'

https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=BwuSpFiOFfYC&pg=PA31&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q&f=false

(B)-5 People's Republic of China

According to Sociologist Deng Weizhi's research,90% of Chinese international marriages consist of Chinese wives and foreign husbands, and only less than 10% involve Chinese husbands with foreign wives "International marriage in China". Liberation Daily News (Deng Weizhi). 2009.


 * 'Before 2008, there were over 300,000 marriages between foreigners (other race) and Chinese.'

S:'Table 1.1 Comparison of Marriages between Chinese and Foreigners (C-F), Chinese and Oversea Chinese (C-OC), and Chinese and Compatriots from Hong Kong, Taiwan & Macau (C-HTM). In 1979-1989 and 1978-2008' S:'Figure 2. Types of Chinese-foreign marriages registered in mainland China, 1979–2010 Sources: ZRGM, Shewai hunyin dengji qingkuang 1979–1981; ZRGM, Sheji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao, waiji huaren, waiguoren de hunyin 1982; ZRGM, Zai hunyin dengji zhong: Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin qingkuang 1983–1984; ZRGM, Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin 1987–1988; ZRGM, Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin dengji qingkuang 1990–1999; and ZRGM, Jiehun dengji qingkuang, jiehun dengji fuwu 2000–2011. Data for 1985 and 1986 are not available.'


 * 'Since 2008, marriages between mainland Chinese women and men from other parts of the world have become the most popular type of Chinese-foreign marriage.'

Among all international marriages, over 80-90% of Chinese women and foreign men are married.

S: ZRGM, Shewai hunyin dengji qingkuang 1979–1981; ZRGM, Sheji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao, waiji huaren, waiguoren de hunyin 1982; ZRGM, Zai hunyin dengji zhong: Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin qingkuang 1983–1984; ZRGM, Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin 1987–1988; ZRGM, Shewai ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao hunyin dengji qingkuang 1990–1999; ZRGM, Jiehun dengji qingkuang, jiehun dengji fuwu 2000–2011; and Zhonghua quanguo funü lianhedi funü yanjiusuo, Shaanxi sheng funü lianhehui yanjiushi, 1986–1988 nian guonei nüxing gongmin tong waiguoren ji huaqiao, Gang Ao Tai tongbao dengji jiehun renshu, 344

http://rozenbergquarterly.com/the-history-and-context-of-chinese-western-intercultural-marriage-in-modern-and-contemporary-china-from-1840-to-the-21st-century/ http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.915.6769&rep=rep1&type=pdf

'''(B)-6 Sogdian ?? Iranian women ???'''

'The few documented pairings of Chinese male owners with young Sogdian girls raise the question how often Sogdian and Chinese families intermarried. The historical record is largely silent on this topic, but Rong Xinjiang has found throughout Tang-dynasty China a total of twenty-one recorded marriages in the seventh century in which one partner was Sogdian, and in eighteen cases, the spouse is also Sogdian. The only exceptions are very high-ranking Sogdian officials who married Chinese wives. 67 He concludes that most Sogdian men took Sogdian wives, and we may surmise that the pairings between Chinese men and Sogdian women were usually between a Chinese male master and a Sogdian female slave.' http://history.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/hansen-silk-road-trade.pdf This sentence is the only academic material.Other source are unreliable.The academic evidence is unclear. Also Sogdian men also married Chinese women. There is only anecdotal evidence. Blocked users distorted the source.

Blocked users have thoroughly deleted marriages between Chinese women and foreign men.On the other hand, he falsely exaggerated the marriage between Chinese men and foreign women.Bablos939 (talk) 14:28, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Bablos939, it's no wonder this whole discussion is so long. Your not trying to change 1 thing but basically trying to change like 10-20 stuff, almost every information on Chinese interracial marriages. Out of all the 6 accounts/IP you accused only 1 was a sockpuppet yet you keep repeating same lies that all of them are socks. As long as I'm here, there's no way I will let you ignore Korean women because that is racist. I already said when we talk it won't be just about Chinese men foreign women and vice versa but also Korean women and foreign man and others. I have no interest in you repeating the same thing but I will answer all of them.

There are massive number marriages of Chinese men with South American women, Carribean women, Black women, Russian women and significant with muslim women. On the hand there is a massive number of marriages of Korean women with Mongolian, Uyghur men, Turkic men, Muslim men, Chinese men.During the same era, another young Chinese Emperor Wang Zongyan who was only 20 years old when he ascended the throne, had a Persian woman as his concubine, Li Shunxian

(None of these info had been edited) Chinese men with foreign women ( Russian women, Manchu women, South America women, Carribean women, Muslim women )


 * Chinese men Russian women

10,000+ marriages of Chinese men, Russian women (Tens of thousands could even mean 20,000-30,000 or more) https://www.pravdareport.com/society/2688-family/
 * Quote
 * " In addition, as researches held by Olga Makhovskaya reveal, marriages between Chinese men and Russian women are also very successful. “There are tens of thousands of such marriages in Russia's Primorye region in the Far East. Chinese men are hard-working, they don't abuse in alcohol drinking and bring their wages home. In a word, they have lots of advantages by contrast with Russian men." It is sad, but the researches don't mention for whom Russian men suit wonderfully. "

'
 * Chinese men Manchu women

'https://books.google.com/books?id=QXHbhsfaJAYC&pg=PA148 https://books.google.com/books?id=ORBmFSFcJKoC&pg=PA79'
 * Quote
 * "mass marriage of Han Chinese officers and officials to Manchu women numbering 1,000 couples was arranged by Prince Yoto 岳托 (Prince Keqin) and Hongtaiji in 1632 to promote harmony between the two ethnic groups. "


 * Chinese men with South American women ( Peruvian, Cuban, Mexico )

There is anecdotal evidence, there is also historical records, physical descendants, genetic evidence, government statistics which are millions more reliable than your mere cherrypicked text from google book.


 * Chinese men peruvian women

So many Peruvian authors/researcher and Peruvian government statistic shows there 15-20% of Peruvian citizens may have some Chinese ancestry and you are here claiming only a few marriages ?

The Chinese Overseas, Volume 1 edited by Hong Liu

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VV9khhBOrlUC&pg=PA242
 * Quote
 * Pervuvian law did not forbid interracial marriage. There is no prevailing racist attitude against intermarriage between the Chinese and non-Chinese in Peru, so the number of interracial marriages is quite large. The number of children born of such marriages estimated by my informants to be more than 180,000. Half of that number is Lima, with the ration between Chinese mestizo and the full-blooded Chinese at 90,000 to 15,000, or six to one

https://www.panoramas.pitt.edu/health-and-society/chinatown-peru-brief-look-chinese-diaspora-latin-america Quote
 * "The first are those who maintain Chinese citizenship and, therefore, have stronger, more direct ties to China; this group includes the descendants of the workers of Cantonese origin who migrated to Peru after 1849, as well as the so-called new migrants—mostly from Fujian province—who have been flowing into the country since the 1980s. The second group are Peruvian citizens born in the countrywith mixed Peruvian-Chinese ancestry, locally known as Tusan.7 The Tusan are thought to be quite numerous: Up to 2.5 million people, or 8 percent of Peru’s population of 31 million may have Chinese ancestry, according to estimates—about whichthere is still much debate.8"

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/chinese-laborers-peru-lima-pyramid "Found: The Remains of Chinese Laborers Interred on a Peruvian Pyramid. In the 19th century, 100,000 indentured laborers came to Peru from China.BY SARAH LASKOW AUGUST 25, 2017"


 * Quote
 * "today 15 percent of people in the country can trace their ancestry back to Chinese and other Asian migrants from the 19th century"


 * Chinese men Cuban women

https://www.ned.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Chapter3-Sharp-Power-Rising-Authoritarian-Influence-Peru.pdf

Many of the Chinese immigrants that remain have intermarried with white, black, and mulatto populations, and their children are of mixed races3. Once an island with thousands of people of Chinese descent, Cuba’s Chinese population and the Havana Chinatown is not as lively as it once was.

. May 15, 2008. claimed 114,240 Chinese-Cuban coolies with only 300 pure This is government statistics from world fact book

https://www.documentjournal.com/2019/07/barrio-chino-chinese-cubans-keep-culture-alive-in-havana/
 * Quote
 * "Today, there are only 150 Chinese-born residents living in the Latin country, but somewhere around 114,000 Cubans with mixed Chinese"


 * Chinese men Mexican women

Crossing Boundaries, Claiming a Homeland: The Mexican Chinese Transpacific Journey to Becoming Mexican, 1930s––1960s Julia Maríía Schiavone Camacho Pacific Historical Review (2009) 78 (4): 545–577.

https://online.ucpress.edu/phr/article/78/4/545/78937/Crossing-Boundaries-Claiming-a-Homeland-
 * Quote
 * "This article follows Mexican Chinese families from Mexico, across the Mexican-U.S. border, to China, and back to Mexico. Settling in northern Mexico in the nineteenth century, Chinese formed multiple ties with Mexicans. An anti-Chinese movement emerged during the Mexican Revolution and peaked during the Great Depression. The Mexican government deported several thousand Chinese men and their Mexican-origin families from Sonora and neighboring Sinaloa, some directly to China and others to the United States, whose immigration agents also deported the families to China. They arrived in Guangdong (Canton) Province but eventually congregated in Macau where they forged a coherent Mexican Chinese enclave. Developing a strategic Mexican nationalism, they appealed for repatriation. The Mexican Chinese "became Mexican" only after authorities compelled them to struggle for years from abroad for the inclusion of their mixed-race families in the nation. They became diasporic citizens and fashioned hybrid identities to survive in Mexico and China."


 * Chinese men Costa Rican women

Costa Rica: A Global Studies Handbook By Meg Tyler Mitchell, Margaret Tyler Mitchell, Scott Pentzer
 * https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0edCL8TY08gC&pg=PA249
 * Quote
 * Most Chinese immigrants since then have been Cantonese, but in the last decades of the 20th century, a number of immigrants have alse come from Taiwan. Many men came alone to work and married Costa Rican women and speak Cantonese

http://www.flavorandfortune.com/dataaccess/article.php?
 * Quote
 * The Chinese originated from the Cantonese male migrants. Pure Chinese make up only 1% of the Costa Rican population, but according to Jacqueline M. Newman, as close to 10% of the people in Costa Rica are Chinese, if we count the people who are Chinese, married to a Chinese person, or of mixed Chinese descent.


 * Chinese men with Carribean women (Guyana, Jamaican, Trinidad )

Chinese men have been in Guyana since 1853, and you here only talking about a single year recorded cases of 6 marriages in 1892. What makes you think that Chinese men only married in 1892 out of it's 150 years in Guyana ?

Cultural Power, Resistance, and Pluralism: Colonial Guyana, 1838-1900 By Brian L. Moore https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=cx_9-X_-smoC&pg=PA272
 * Quote
 * "destiny resided in Guyana; and also as Creole women began to consider Chinese men desirable 'marriage' partners"

Social Life in the Caribbean, 1838-1938. By Bridget Brereton https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=f03rv7gJCBgC&pg=PA12 Quote
 * Like the Portugese, many Chinese men (for few women came ) married Creoles.

https://huf.us/1805345
 * Quote
 * The 1943 census showed 12,394 Chinese residing in Jamaica. These were divided into three categories by the census, namely "China-born" (2,818), "local-born" (4,061), and "Chinese coloured" (5,515), the latter referring to multiracial people of mixed African and Chinese descent.


 * Chinese men Muslim women ( Persian women, Sogdian women, Iranian women, Arab women, Turkic women )

You rely on the opinion of Maria Jaschok, a book author that didn't even knew the meaning of what Pusaman and had no idea if they were Persian women. She uses realiable sources on recorded cased of Chinese men married to Persian women, Arab women including Chinese women. The only proplem is her assumption on numbers and statistics claiming many marriage, and another assumption is claiming no muslim women migrated to China, or that they were very few.

EVIDENCE: SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF MUSLIM WOMEN MIGRATED TO CHINA

Firstable present evidence that Muslim women were in China in significant number. Sogdian, Persian, Arab women were found in Tang dynasty, Southern Han, Song dynasty from 10-12th century especially.

Investment and Employment Opportunities in China By Jeffrey Yi-Lin Forrest, Tao Lixin https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4m1YBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA67
 * Quote
 * Over time, the demographics of Guangdong slowly shifted with more Han Chinese and some Persian women massively migrating into the regions from the north during periods of political turmoil and nomadic incursions.

Memoirs of the Research Department
 * Quote
 * At the foreign quarter, there lited of course many foreign women , and they were called by the Chinese Po - ssu - fu.


 * Rong, Xinjiang, "New light on Sogdian Colonies along the Silk Road
 * In Tang poetry Sogdian girls also frequently appear as serving maids in the taverns and inns of the capital Chang'an.

The Silk Road Encyclopedia https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UgOwDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT763 Persian women who worked at publich houses in Chang'an during the Tang dynasty. A large number of Persian women were hired to entertain guests...... these women were as Huji.....Huji appear a suprising number of times in the work of Li Bai and other poets from Tang dynasty"

Walter Joseph Fischel (1951). Semitic and Oriental studies: a volume presented to William Popper, professor of Semitic languages, emeritus, on the occasion of his seventy-fifth birthday, October 29, 1949. Volume 11 of University of California publications in Semitic philology. University of California Press. p. 407. Retrieved January 4, 2012.
 * Quote
 * "At least from the tenth to the twelfth century, Persian women were to be found in Canton, in the former period observed in the harem of Liu Chang of Southern Han,” and in the latter seen as typically wearing great numbers of earrings and cursed with quarrelsome dispositions ..."

Persians women, Turkic women, Korean women were captured by Chinese and sold as slaves for hot commity

Daily Life in Traditional China: The Tang Dynasty By Charles D. Benn https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=emPuDu97qbkC&pg=PA39
 * Quote

Persians captured by the Chinese pirates in the southeast; and Korean women, whose beauty made them a hot commodity in the housholds of the well-to-do.

EVIDENCE: SIGINFICANT RECORDED NUMBER MARRIAGES OF CHINESE MEN MUSLIM WOMEN MARRIAGES

( Song dynasty, Southern Han, Tang dynasty )

https://books.google.com/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false (Li 8c Feng)
 * Quote
 * "Song times: 'In the times of Wudai (907—960) the emperors preferred to marry Persian women, and the Song Dynasty official families liked to marry women from Dashi [Arabia]198529)."

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gc_3IXkwG3QC&pg=PA251 Women Shall Not Rule: Imperial Wives and Concubines in China from Han to Liao By Keith McMahon
 * Quote
 * "Liu Chang's favorite consort was a Persian woman, with whom he practiced orgiastic games. “Liu Chang indulged himself "

University of Hawaii at Manoa. Center for Chinese Studies (2007). China Review International, Volume 14.
 * Quote
 * During the same era, another young Chinese Emperor Wang Zongyan who was only 20 years old when he ascended the throne, had married a Persian woman as his concubine, Li Shunxian

Quote
 * "Of the Han Chinese Li family in Quanzhou, Li Nu, the son of Li Lu, visited Hormuz in Persia in 1376, married a Persian or an Arab woman, and brought her back to Quanzhou. He then converted to Islam. Li Nu was the ancestor of the Ming Dynasty reformer Li Chih.

The Wiley Blackwell Companion to Zoroastrianism Michael Stausberg, Yuhan Sohrab-Dinshaw Vevaina https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YT-kBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA150 Quote
 * Before the An Lushan rebellion (756-763). Sogdian-Chinese intermarriages were were rare (Rong 2001: 132-135). After the rebellion, however, Sogdian-Chinese marriages became more and more common and Sogdians gradually lost their ethnic identities and became Sinicized (Chen 2001: 195-20 )

Les sogdiens en Chine
 * Quote
 * " The only exceptions are very high-ranking Sogdian officials who married Chinese wives.and we may surmise that the pairings between Chinese men and Sogdian women "
 * Quote
 * "Sogdian slave girls and their Chinese male owners made up the majority of Sogdian female-Chinese male pairings"

and by the way many Sogdians were muslims Source: Bukhara, the Eastern Dome of Islam: Urban Development, Urban Space ... https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sVgtKQdJrTMC&pg=PA18 "Soon after this many of the Sogdians, who had converted in masses to Islam, supported the Abbasid "revolution- " ( from 7th century )

WITH GENETIC EVIDENCE

Haplogroup W (mtDNA) is a maternal marker common common in west Asian females and Iranian females population. Haplogroup W is believed to have originated around 23,900 years ago in Western Asia. You can see is prevalent in Persia (not Afghanistan)

Evidence of Chinese men marriage to Muslim women https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/19/10/1737/1258999

" 69 healthy and maternally unrelated Cantonese from southern China, Guangdong Province,"

"The latter all fall into the West Eurasian haplogroups JT, HV, U, W, X, and N1. "

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384943/

"Two mtDNAs, one sampled in Yunnan and the other in Liaoning, are regarded as resulting from admixture from western Eurasia (via central Asia), as they belong to the west Eurasian haplogroups HV and T1 "

Based on these evidence I think there is nothing wrong to say Chinese married Persian women in Guangzhou.


 * Chinese women with muslim men

Only thing I agree is 14th century during the Ming dynasty Why I agree ? Because there is historical record, genetic descendants, physical descendants such as the Hui Chineseto prove it. Even though most Hui Chinese paternal and maternal are Han Chinese men/women it shows more muslim men married than muslim women

I do not agree with many muslim men married with Chinese women during the Tang dynasty and Song dynasty, or even Yuan dynasty and only a few Muslim women migrated. 1) That is 100% wrong, many records shows muslim women were numerous, significant present 2) DNA shows muslim descendants also there's signficant western maternal DNA 3) Not a single muslim descendants in Canton that trace back to Tang/Song dynasty unlike the Hui Chinese which are in western China.

So I agree with what is currently edited here unless you can prove me wrong.

The Golden Peaches of Samarkand: A Study of T'ang Exotics By Edward H. Schafer https://books.google.com/books?id=jqAGIL02BWQC&pg=PA22
 * Quote

Intermarriage was initially discouraged by the Tang Dynasty. In 836 Lu Chun was appointed as governor of Canton, and was disgusted to find the Chinese living with foreigners and intermarrying. Lu enforced separation, banned interracial marriages, and made it illegal for foreigners to own property. Lu Chun believed his principles were just and upright.The 836 law specifically banned Chinese from forming relationships with "dark peoples" or "people of colour", which was used to describe foreigners, such as "Iranians, Sogdians, Arabs, Indians, Malays, Sumatrans", among others.

GENETIC EVIDENCE SHOWS HUI CHINESE HAVE ANCESTRY OF MUSLIM FROM BOTH SIDE.

7 out of 100 Hui Chinese can have Caucasian maternal ancestry

Source.. Different Matrilineal Contributions to Genetic Structure of Ethnic Groups in the Silk Road Region in China https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/21/12/2265/1071048
 * Quote
 * "western Eurasian-specific haplogroup frequency was observed, with the highest frequency present in Uygur (42.6%) and Uzbek (41.4%) samples, followed by Kazak (30.2%), Mongolian (14.3%), and Hui (6.7%)."

30 out of 100 Hui Chinese can have Caucasian paternal ancestry

The massive assimilation of indigenous East Asian populations in the origin of Muslim Hui people inferred from paternal Y chromosome https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.23823
 * Quote
 * "Co‐analyzed with published worldwide populations, our results suggest the origin of Hui people has involved massive assimilation of indigenous East Asians with about 70% in total of the paternal ancestry could be traced back to East Asia and the left 30% to various regions in West Eurasia."

Quote
 * "The genetic structure of the extant Hui populations was primarily shaped by the indigenous East Asian populations as they contribute the majority part of the paternal lineages of Hui people. The West Eurasian admixture was probably a sex‐biased male‐driven process since we have not found such a high proportion of West Eurasian gene flow on autosomal STRs and maternal mtDNA"

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rsos.190358
 * Quote
 * "According to historical records, ethnic Hui in China obtained substantial genetic components from western Eurasian populations during their Islamization. However, some scholars believed that the ancestry of Hui people were native Chinese populations."


 * 90% of Chinese international marriages consist of Chinese wives and foreign husbands,

Chinese wives and foreign husbands include apparently mostly from Hong Kong husbands and Taiwan husbands, Singaporean husbands. https://asiatimes.com/2019/03/hk-china-cross-border-marriages-increasing/

The most common type of Chinese-foreign marriage registered in mainland China until the late 2000s was between a mainland Chinese woman and a man from Hong Kong, Macao or Taiwan. Nearly 8,000 people from Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan married mainland Chinese citizens in 1979. That figure peaked at slightly more than 48,000 in 2003. However, the number of such marriages has been declining, on average, since then. Fewer than 18,000 people from Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan married mainland Chinese citizens in 2010, which is lower than the number of marriages involving ‘foreign nationals’.


 * KOREAN WOMEN FOREIGN MEN MARRIAGES

Korean women with foreign men ( Mongols, Chinese soldiers, Manchu soldiers, emperors Muslim, Turkic )

Kyung Moon Hwang is a Korean https://books.google.com/books?id=B7WrDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT64 https://books.google.com/books?id=Rjy7DQAAQBAJ&pg=PA47

Kyung Moon Hwang says the official number of Korean women in the Yuan is actually a gross underestimation and there were many more.


 * Chinese soldiers and Korean women

In North Korea: an American travels through an imprisoned nation. Nanchu, Xing Hang. McFarland, 2003 - History - 197 pages https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VXlTBQAAQBAJ&pg=PT23
 * Quote
 * " especially after the Korean War, thousands of Chinese Volunteer soldiers were ordered to stay behind and marry the North Korean women in order to increase the population. "


 * Qing soldiers and Korean women

Women in Korean History 한국 역사 속의 여성들 Pae-yong Yi Ewha Womans University Press, 2008 - Korea - 319 pages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qing_invasion_of_Joseon Many Korean women were kidnapped and were raped at the hand of the Qing forces, and as a result were unwelcomed by their families even if they were released by the Qing after being ransomed. In 1648 Joseon was forced to provide several of their royal princesses as concubines to the Qing regent Prince Dorgon.

Empire's Twilight: Northeast Asia Under the Mongols By David M. Robinson https://books.google.com/books?id=PDjWpqU55eMC&pg=PA53
 * Quote
 * "Late in the thirteenth century, Qubilai and other Mongol aristocrats began to demand women from elite Koryo families as wives and consorts. Despite initial efforts to avoid these demands, the Korean government eventually responded by establishing government bureaus to organize and control the flow of Koryo women to the Mongol empire."


 * "What had begun as the seizure of women as war booty evolved into a complex system of formal tribute between the ruling houses of Koryo and the Mongol Empire. Yuan envoys regularly traveled to Koryo to secure women on behalf of the emperor, who often redistributed them as gifts to leading ministers. Yuan envoys and Yuan officials stationed in Koryo also requested Koryo brides for themselves."

MASSIVE NUMBER OF KOREAN WOMEN WITH FOREIGN MEN NOT JUST 1,500


 * "The number of Koryo women in Daidu increased steadily over the late thirteenth and first half of the fourteenth centuries. Nearly 1,500 Koryo tribute women are noted in official Yuan and Koryo court annals. The actual number of women was certainly much higher since elite Koryo women nearly always traveled with their own maids and servants. Lesser-known women were not deemed sufficienty significant to merit mention in official records. Many Koreans married their womenfolk to members of the Yuan elite as a way to secure official posts and advance family interests."

Korean women with Mongolian men, Uyghur men, Muslim men
 * Quote
 * Mongolian, Muslim, and Uyghur elites appreciated Koryo beauties, and the acquisition of Korean concubines became something of a fad. As one fourteenth-century Chinese observer familiar with the court in Daidu observed:

Daily Life in Traditional China: The Tang Dynasty By Charles D. Benn https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=emPuDu97qbkC&pg=PA39
 * Quote
 * " Persians captured by the Chinese pirates in the southeast; and Korean women, whose beauty made them a hot commodity in the housholds of the well-to-do."

Most of the data I copy and pasted are based on hours of researched information. I also included some from the other previous editors to help me. It was a lot of work. 70.77.154.228 (talk) 18:36, 12 June 2020 (UTC)