Talk:Intersex and LGBT

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2020 and 10 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Leekindj.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:07, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

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External links modified
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I have just modified 3 external links on Intersex and LGBT. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160914152729/http://oii.org.au/wp-content/uploads/key/Intersex-Stories-Statistics-Australia.pdf to http://oii.org.au/wp-content/uploads/key/Intersex-Stories-Statistics-Australia.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131204073813/http://www.ilga-europe.org/home/news/latest/intersex_forum_2013 to http://www.ilga-europe.org/home/news/latest/intersex_forum_2013
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131226074847/http://www.intersexualite.de/index.php/public-statement-third-international-intersex-forum/ to http://www.intersexualite.de/index.php/public-statement-third-international-intersex-forum/

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Intersex and homosexuality
The article currently claims "Numerous studies have shown higher rates of same sex attraction in intersex people"- suggesting that higher prevalence of homosexuality (how much?) is seen the class of intersex people. This is a gross over-generalization. The citations are specifically about (NC) CAH and the article itself describes how the idea of prenatal androgen in exposure in humans and its effect on sexuality is not something that should be considered as established. Further, there are many misconceptions about intersex people not necessarily being either male or female (see Sax); homosexuality would have to be explained in cases of 'true' intersex individuals. The claims of the Australian survey suggest that 52% of people who identify as intersex are non heterosexual would have to be contrasted with the much much lower prevalence in the general population. Very little is clearly established here.Maneesh (talk) 22:27, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
 * This was an excessive removal. You are not here to judge inclusion of sources according to particular ideological frameworks. Editing with reference to the actual sources would have been a better alternative, and reference to Sax is both irrelevant and WP:OR. Clinician views on the 'true' sexes of individuals with intersex conditions has gone through many historical and well documented shifts with an impact on what might be meant by female or male. For example the cited author, Heino Meyer-Bahlburg defines sex by reference to chromosomes. I have edited the material, and added a citation further down the page. Trankuility (talk) 08:16, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know where your claims of ideology are coming from. You are incorrect on a great deal here reflecting common misconceptions about intersex. You are not familiar with the Sax paper I refer to, it is not WP:OR it is a published in a peer reviewed journal, has been cited 351 times by scholar and meets WP:SOURCES. There is no coherent consensus on the relationship between homosexuality and intersex (the latter being a very diverse class of conditions), the removal is correct. Using "genetic male" for AIS is standard terminology.  Because the concept of sex does truly become difficult to categorize for conditions like AIS (why 'genetic male' is used for clarity instead of just 'male'), the idea of 'homo'-sexuality also becomes difficult to define for the same reasons. I am not aware of any sources that explores that issue in detail. The added references do not support the generalized claim that "Numerous studies have shown higher rates of same sex attraction in intersex people".If 'Meyer-Bahlburg also discussed sexual attraction by individuals with..., 5α-Reductase deficiency...stating that sexual attraction towards females in individuals with these conditions was facilitated by 'prenatal exposure to and utilization of androgens'" then how could that be relevant to homosexuality? 5α-Reductase deficiency affect *males*, if they are attracted to females then that is heterosexuality.  I can't verify what Meyer-Bahlburg actually wrote behind the paywall to see where you made your mistake.
 * There is of course little need to do all this since the quote from Meyer-Bahlburg in the article says clearly 'It is too early to conclude that there is a pre- or perinatal hormonal contribution to the development of homosexuality'...so then why does the section start with the claim that ""Numerous studies have shown higher rates of same sex attraction in intersex people"" ?Maneesh (talk) 17:22, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The Meyer-Bahlburg cites are quite old as well (1990); not a terrible amount has changed since then though. You can see a more recent review (2011) on the relationship between conditions that influence the prenatal endocrine environment (a subset, perhaps a very small one, of all intersex conditions) and sexual orientation, you can see the language is cautious and highlights many caveats in the interpretation of studies that it examines. Nowhere do you see strong claims about homosexuality enrichment in population with atypical prenatal endocrine exposure, precisely because sexual orientation is a complex trait with many factors.  I think it would be fine to describe which numbers suggest that there *might* be a link between prenatal exposures and sexual orientation for *specific conditions*, but it the relevance to the entire class of intersex people doesn't line up with WP:PROPORTION .Maneesh (talk) 19:20, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Wrong word used
There is no "edit" icon for the top paragraph, which contains this text, "... with the acronym sometimes expanded to LGBTI".

LGBTI is NOT an acronym -- a pronounceable word like NATO -- but an intialism, which is not a word, like IBM.


 * My understanding of that section, which can be changed if someone edits the whole page, is it is referring to the LGBTQ community, but specifically emphasizing those who are intersex. Perhaps it should be changed to LGBTQ, or even LGBT, but I'd to have some consensus on here before I make that change. --Historyday01 (talk) 14:02, 8 December 2021 (UTC)