Talk:Intestinal mucosal barrier

The pages "Intestinal mucosal barrier" and "Intestinal permeability" are closely related with the later being the measurement of the former. I'm about done with this page (mostly finishing up the links) and can move it into article space within a few days. However, I would like some opinions regarding which pages some of this new material should appear. For example, the list of regulators and clinical significance section. My feeling is that all the material should stay on this page. I've seen phraseology like "failure of the mucosal barrier" in journal articles many times but hardly ever see "intestinal permeability." Perhaps Jytdog and User:BallenaBlanca would be so kind as to offer their opinions. Thanks! McortNGHH (talk) 13:40, 27 April 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if I understand. We already have these two pages :Intestinal permeability and Intestinal epithelium. Are you preparing new information about "Intestinal mucosal barrier" and want to know where to include it? Best regards. --BallenaBlanca (talk) 18:37, 27 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Sorry BallenaBlanca, the page that I would like to add is here. McortNGHH (talk) 18:55, 27 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the ping. Collaboration on this high conceptual level is so fun, so thanks for including me.   Some high level responses to this, and then responses to your questions...
 * I did the search-for-pubmed-reviews game:
 * Results using the title of this article are here. There are recent sources that seem useful and are not used like  and  and maybe
 * Results using just "mucosal barrier" are here - turned up which looks useful and not cited here.
 * The search results raise the question for me of how Gut flora fits here, physically and functionally; ( i've kind of quickly looked before and never found in WP a description of exactly where the gut flora actually reside nor the accompanying sense-making of how their physical location are related to their survival and function.  I've always wondered but never gone into the literature to search for what is known about stuff like - do they float on the mucosal barrier, or do they coat it, or both?  Are gut flora in constant physical contact with the epithelial cells or do bacteria that come into contact get killed right away? Do gut microflora form biofilms, and if so how do those films inter-relate with the mucosa?  .... just stuff i have wondered)  Or maybe you view the microbiota stuff as voguish or OFFTOPIC for this article.  What do you think?
 * The question of how to knit all this together is interesting/hard. Part of me thinks it would be worthwhile to add this to the intestinal epithelium article and merge in the Intestinal permeability article to see how it all works as one thing, and then consider how/what to split out. What do you think of that? Jytdog (talk) 06:20, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your input Jytdog. The reviews you listed are great, however, all but one are not open access. I think it's a good idea to try to incorporate them for their recentness and relevance so I'll see what I can pull from their abstracts. I was able to get one, Sánchez de Medina et al., via ResearchGate - I'll go through that completely. Candida albicans' relation with the barrier is new to me - I'll try to find a bit more info.
 * As for gut flora, you've opened a huge topic. From your questions, it could be one you'd find enjoyable. The gut flora do interact in a sophisticated way with the barrier by modifying function. My intention was/is to leave that for later as it is a rather detailed topic. What goes into the 'flora' page and what goes here is another question similar to the current one. In general, you are on the right track: Different species generally stay in their 'place', in stream, near the mucus, on the mucus or even in M cells of the epithelial layer. Otherwise, mingling with the mucus, getting past it, or contacting the epithelial layer means a quick death. A breach allowing their passage through the barrier would likely mean substantial failure in several defensive aspects has occurred. Biofilms? You'd have to be pretty ill for that to happen. Gut flora is a rapidly developing research area and is producing a lot of new and significant relationships. (How to incorporate entries on gut flora and mental health is another question for later... A review to start with.)
 * I think these three topics are separate and all three pages should exist. Intestinal epithelium is anatomy and people wishing to learn about that should not be burdened with too much additional material. As you can see, the mucosal barrier is a complex functional entity and important for health. Most of the health-related material should be on the barrier page. Intestinal permeability is a measurement of barrier function but not a rich full-featured health topic. Take a look at this page, Ussing chamber, to get a feel for the type of stuff that intestinal permeability should include.
 * For an example of how these pages could be related see: Blood–brain barrier, Meninges . especially "The arachnoid is composed of an outermost portion (arachnoid barrier cell layer) with tightly packed cells and no extracellular collagen; that is why it is considered to represent an effective morphological and physiological meningeal barrier between the cerebrospinal fluid and subarachnoid space and the blood circulation in the dura.", and Intracranial pressure.
 * In any case, we've got a good handle on this. I'll add the new material and references to this page and will hold off moving it for now. Next, I intend to do a substantial amount of work on the Intestinal permeability page. Maybe Gut flora after that. Thanks again for collaborating! McortNGHH (talk) 07:51, 28 April 2016 (UTC)


 * A very interesting conversation! I will try to look calmly this weekend. I will also try to get the full text of papers you propose, . Thank you both for collaborating! --BallenaBlanca (talk) 08:05, 29 April 2016 (UTC)


 * , I have already received the papers. I will send you them by email. Best regards. --BallenaBlanca (talk) 09:51, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks BallenaBlanca. That'd be great. It'll take me a several days to get back to this. And thanks for collaborating! McortNGHH (talk) 10:54, 29 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Another aspect to consider: intestinal permeability is about a physical breach - definitely a problem to be considered - while the barrier function includes many other defences. Also, many of the regulatory mechanisms act on tight junctions so the 'modulation' section of Intestinal permeability should be expanded with detail of these. McortNGHH (talk) 10:54, 29 April 2016 (UTC)


 * One of Jytog's recommended reviews, "Disruption of the intestinal mucosal barrier in Candida albicans infections." PMID 23545353, has by far, the most straightforward description of the intestinal mucosal barrier. I'll include it as a ref in the intro and basic desc as well as putting a bit about Candida under pathogens. Let me know what you think Jytdog and BallenaBlanca. McortNGHH (talk) 19:58, 29 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the delay, I am very busy! I will answer your questions, :
 * The search results raise the question for me of how Gut flora fits here, physically and functionally; ( i've kind of quickly looked before and never found in WP a description of exactly where the gut flora actually reside nor the accompanying sense-making of how their physical location are related to their survival and function.
 * The gut flora is located on the surface of the epithelial cells and also in the intestinal lumen an play an important role increasing the defensive barrier against pathogens.
 * I've always wondered but never gone into the literature to search for what is known about stuff like - do they float on the mucosal barrier, or do they coat it, or both? Are gut flora in constant physical contact with the epithelial cells or do bacteria that come into contact get killed right away? Do gut microflora form biofilms, and if so how do those films inter-relate with the mucosa? .... just stuff i have wondered) Or maybe you view the microbiota stuff as voguish or OFFTOPIC for this article. What do you think? The question of how to knit all this together is interesting/hard. Part of me thinks it would be worthwhile to add this to the intestinal epithelium article and merge in the Intestinal permeability article to see how it all works as one thing, and then consider how/what to split out. What do you think of that?
 * Mucosal barrier function (MBF) is the capacity of the intestine to provide adequate containment of luminal microorganisms and molecules while preserving the ability to absorb nutrients. MBF is built upon the main physical barrier, i.e., the epithelium, which is a monolayer mainly composed of 4 types of intestinal epithelial cells (IECs): absorptive enterocytes, mucus producing goblet cells, antimicrobial peptide (AMP)-producing Paneth cells, and hormone-producing enteroendocrine cells. The epithelium is protected by a mucus layer, AMP, and secretory IgA (sIgA). In addition, the microbiota itself can be considered to be part of the intestinal barrier, in as much as it can enhance or weaken MBF.
 * Underneath the intestinal epithelium, the lamina propria contains dendritic cells, macrophages, innate lymphoid cells, T lymphocytes, and plasma cells. Both epithelial and lamina propria cells are main mediators of the innate and adaptive immune responses, that are also components of MBF.
 * Alterations of MBF are increasingly being related to a wide variety of disorders directly or indirectly linked to the intestine, including inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), celiac disease, metabolic syndrome, allergy, hepatic inflammation, septic shock, etc.
 * Best regards. --BallenaBlanca (talk) 12:21, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

/Intestinal mucosal barrier listed at Redirects for discussion
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