Talk:Into the Wild (novel)

Cover
The official Warriors website uses that image featured in the center of the cover as their picture of Firestar. So we actually have proof for this one. -- ~|ET|~ (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's still original research to say that A looks like B so therefore A=B. Metros 12:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Correct me if I'm wrong, but you mean that the picture that is used on the website is not the exact picture used in the article and so we cannot assume that both the pictures are reffering to the same cat? Bella   Swan (Talk!)  12:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Even if it was the same exact picture, it's still original research until you get someone like the cover designer to state in an article in a magazine or something that "Yes, the image on the cover is _____ during _____." Frankly, what the hell does it matter?  Seriously, if it's so damn obvious that it's that cat and you think I'm a moron for not seeing that, then why in the hell wouldn't anyone else know that that's the cat and not need you to state that in the article?  Really, what is the point of it being needed to be stated in our article here?  I don't see any other book series or novels that state what is on the cover of the book, so why do we need it if it's so blatantly obvious in your opinions?  Metros 12:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well if that's your argument, why don't you go and remove all obvious information from the entire wikipedia DAVID CAT 23:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, if you think it doesn't matter, why don't you stop complaining DAVID CAT 12:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If you read what I said, I said why the hell do you people care so much about putting it in there? What good does it provide for these articles?  Metros 12:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I offeneded you, but I do agree that it is a kinda stupid thing to be arguing about and that it should stop. Bella   Swan (Talk!)  12:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, if it's a silly thing to be arguing about, why don't you stop arguing and let us keep the informationDAVID CAT 23:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I quote from the tag at the top of Reliable sources:

''This page is considered a content guideline on Wikipedia. It is generally accepted among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. When editing this page, please ensure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on this page's talk page.'' Common sense says that the cats are the sameDAVID CAT 23:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I see your point, and I see Metros' point, and still think it's a stupid thing to argue about. I really do think that common sense would tell you that the cat's are the same, but all content in an encyclopedia is supposed to verifiable. I really don't know a solution to this problem. Bella   Swan (Talk!)  03:22, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * ok, the book (in fact the entire series) has rusty as the main character. the OFFICIAL WEBSITE of the series has a section on the main characters. it uses the same identical picture from the cover as a picture of rusty. so the picture on the cover is of rusty, no one could come to a different conclusion.DAVID CAT 13:44, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Whatever! Even if it's OBVIOUS, just leave it there. It won't do anyone harm, right? IceUnshattered (talk) 00:37, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Changes
Where it talks about the prolouge and mentions the prophecy it says that 'this fire turns out to be Rusty, a housecat' I really see no point in that being there because 1) Nowhere in the first book does anyone come out and say that Rusty/Firepaw is the fire that will save their clan. 2) Even Bluestar isn't sure of the fact 3) It doesn't even MENTION Rusty in the prolouge amd 4) It should be obvious to the reader anyway. I removed that line. If anyone has objections we can talk it out and put it back in, possibly in a different spot.
 * Also I added which Erin Hunter wrote the book. ClawClaw 19:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that, ClawClaw. IceUnshattered (talk) 00:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Warriorsbook1.jpg
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BetacommandBot 23:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Revision as of 2008.03.07.
I rewrote the article to give it more encyclopedic value. Please remember that this article is meant to present the book mainly to people who never heard about it before. Consequently, there is no need to enumerate dozens of names, to present the plot in an in-universe style, to present non-relevant details, and to use words and expressions that are not understood by those who did not read the books. Remember, the article was nominated for deletion because of these flaws. Yrtgm (talk) 16:52, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I found a lot of issues in Into the Wild that I never expected! O well I'll try to fix it...one more thing on my list of stuff to do...*sigh* Melkittycat (talk) 03:02, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm
Maybe the summary should be shortened a little because it feels like i'm reading the book right here, or maybe it doesn't need to be???? Aqualover (talk) 02:10, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Aww, yes. Usually by WP:PLOT the summary is usually only 3-4 paragrpahs. Lately I'm been trying to raise the book articles to C-class. However since this is already B-class, it is very low on my priority list. If you don't mind, could you please shorten it? please read How to write a plot summary to correctly write the summary. Keep in the important plot details not like "Sandstorm caught a mouse". Add events like death, battle, new leader etc.. Derild  49  21  ☼  12:57, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Comments from Sadads
Upon request, I am going to peer review this article, I will leave points which I think need to be polished below, Sadads (talk) 00:12, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
 * In general, I think booksellers are questionable sources, because they may not be accurately representing the reviews they have (possibly excluding content or only choosing good reviews), are any of them accessible in any other forms/locations?Sadads (talk) 00:49, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I usually try to avoid that too, but Children's Literature requires subscription and none of the sources I usually use for reviews has them. I try to avoid them in the Critical reception area, but I use them for themes and anything else I can. Derild  49  21  ☼  01:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

In Style and writing

 * "She compares their style to a different language and after all the scripts she gone through, Holmes knows when a sentence of phrase doesn't fit in." needs to be clarified, Sadads (talk) 00:12, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed.
 * "The book also uses different words and a different writing style which have been praised and criticized by reviewers." could use some more description of what reviewers notice, to make it easier to follow where the paragraph is going, Sadads (talk) 19:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * "Reviews have also noted how the book does not get rid of any violence and gore" is kindof unclear. What violence and gore should she be getting rid of ?Sadads (talk) 19:30, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Structure and genre

 * I am not sure what you are getting at in "HarperCollins originally requested that Holmes write a "fantasy story on feral cats", but Holmes also added in human themes and issues into the book." I mean when someone treats animals as anthropomorphic, then they begin to create societies because they "are" human (hence "anthro"). I think this is part of the reason these books are being compared to Brian Jacques. I would suggest rereading the source and trying to figure out what they are actually getting at with this comment (or if it actually needs to be included or needs to be changed in how it is presented) Sadads (talk) 19:36, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Themes
Is ""booksforyouth Review". booksforyouth.com. Retrieved 2010-07-20." A reliable source? It just looks like a blog to me, Sadads (talk) 00:36, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Doesn't seem like one. At the time I jumped at anything that gave me something on themes.

Critical reception section
I think this section could go a little deeper into the intricacy of each review. It has a very surface level approach right now, with each review pretty much giving a thumbs up or a thumbs down, or so it seems, Sadads (talk) 00:29, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I saw that an an issue too when I came back to the article. Derild  49  21  ☼  01:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I've found quite a lot of newspaper article reviews in the Google news archives, but they all require subscriptions. Is there any website I can use like accessmylibrary view the articles without having to subscribe? Derild  49  21  ☼  00:22, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I would check and see if you can get access to Newspaper Source Plus (EBSCO) and LexisNexis Academic, both of these have pretty good breadth and depth, I will send you an e-mail and you can give me specific reviews you want and I can try to get them and throw them into PDF for you. I have access to a fair amount of resources through my university's library, Sadads (talk) 02:38, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I have access to Newspaper Source Plus through my library, but there aren't any results that come up. The best I can get is two bestseller lists for other books in the series. I think that the newspaper sources were too long ago. Derild  49  21  ☼  13:59, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I sent you an e-mail, give me the article titles and some bibliographic info( which newspapers and dates) you want via e-mail and I will see if I can retrieve them, Sadads (talk) 23:07, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I've replied. Thanks for everything! Derild  49  21  ☼  23:20, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Sent you the times article, looking for others, hopfeully will have some tonight, Sadads (talk) 23:49, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Got it thanks, but is it reliable considering an 11 year old wrote the article and it was published by the Washington Times? Derild  49  21  ☼  00:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you busy now or have you just missed this? Friendly reminder! Derild  49  21  ☼  22:48, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, missed it on my watchlist. I would call it reliable in the sense that he does a pretty good job examining the book and the Times published it as "their review". You may want to make a comment on the nature of the reviewer, not sure. It would be an interesting thing to bring up in the Critical Reception section at the very least. I told you I couldn't find the other ones in my databases right? Sorry school has been getting busy, and WP:USPP is taking a fair bit of my concentraiton. I will reread this tonight or tomorrow (as a break from school work) and see if I can offer any more feedback. Sadads (talk) 23:30, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
 * No problem, thanks for the reply. I'll add it in soon. Don't worry about this too much, school is important. ;). Derild  49  21  ☼  23:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Lead
Before you go to another review, I would get the lead within standards for WP:Lead, especially number of paragraphs to content ratio, Sadads (talk) 00:54, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Wording
"The genre is fantasy though there are also human elements and themes within the book."

I was somewhat confused by that sentence. This seems to suggest that human elements and themes aren't common in fantasy. Instead of "the genre is fantasy," I think that a statement about the creatures might make for a better comparison. -- James26 (talk) 11:20, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing that out, fixed. Derild  49  21  ☼  19:49, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Peer review
At long last, I am posting my review! You said that you were thinking of submitting this article for FAC. I think the two biggest issues that it faces are "brilliant prose" and "high-quality sources".


 * In general, the article needs to be thoroughly copyedited. The sentence structure is often repetitive, which gives the writing a stilted feeling (the lead is a good example of this).
 * The organization of the lead is confusing - information about the themes, setting and style is mixed up with the history of the writing and publication.
 * Places to expand or be more specific:
 * The lexicon and different words have also been commented on by reviewers. - This sentence has little meaning - what have reviewers said?
 * Holmes has said that the style of the series needs to stay consistent with the three different authors. Holmes needs to "make sure that [the book] “sounds” like Erin, because she has a very distinctive voice". She compares their style to a different language and after all the scripts she gone through, Holmes knows when a sentence of phrase isn't in Erin Hunter's voice. - This needs a bit more detail - what does Hunter's "voice" sound like?
 * The book also uses different words and a different writing style which have been praised and criticized by reviewers. - This sentence has no meaning - what words and style have been commented on?
 * A Children's Literature review noted the words "kittypet" and "twoleg" which mean housecat and humans respectively. Instead, of using words such as "said" and, the author uses the words "mewed". This was critized with the reviewer writing "the "he mewed" and "she purred" and "the warrior mewed" which pass for cat talk grows old fast" - What did the reviewer think was the problem with these words, exactly?
 * Is there any more detail you can add about the themes in general?


 * Organizational issues:
 * Reviews have also noted how the writing style does not cover up the hardships of Clan life. School Library Journal commented on how the story describes the hardships and difficulties of a feral cat's life in detail and how there is also no sugarcoating of the violence.[10] Fantasy Book Review also wrote "Erin Hunter does not spare the reader from the grim realities of living in the wild". - This is a theme.


 * Have you had anyone assess these sources? Some of them look like they might not pass WP:RS. I did a quick assessment of some of them and many looked iffy. However, I did not delve into them very deeply.

I hope this helps! Awadewit (talk) 17:51, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much for the review. I'll work on fixing up some of the prose, but I'll probably need another editor to look it over. The sources have been broughy up as a concern here. I'll be working to add in references and more genre information this coming weekend. Thanks! Derild  49  21  ☼  18:42, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, on the fact about what the "voice" is, the interview I have cited is the only mention of this that I could find. Anything I could do about that? Derild  49  21  ☼  18:57, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * If that is all the source says, that is all you can say - too bad! Awadewit (talk) 20:24, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Very well then, I added a little more on the voice, but I can't find anymore at this time, I'll keep looking though. Derild  49  21  ☼  20:51, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Some thoughts
I reviewed this article for GA and now notice the prose has been tweaked and new material entered. I suggest the article be sent to Reassessment before FAC is considered, or a copy editor be allowed to touch up the prose. I see other problems. For example, we're told the book has been described as "Shakespearean" but this is not developed other than listing some themes the book shares with the bard's plays such as war and star-crossed lovers. Listing themes and moving on to something else is not enough at FAC. There appears to be no reliable sources (read scholarly literature) that delve into this book with a thorough examination of its themes. This is the weakest part of the article and probably won't help at FAC. Themes is the meat and potatoes of an article about a work of fiction and other than the themes being listed here, there's no examination of them. At this point however, the article could be improved with a thorough copy edit. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 21:32, 4 October 2010 (UTC)
 * At this point FAC is at the back of my head. Right now I'm just trying to add in more reliable sources, improving prose etc. As for scholary reviews, this is note exactly a classic book, but more Percy Jacksonish; just a popular kids series. Derild  49  21  ☼  21:48, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Some More Thoughts
"The novel has been translated into 20 different languages including German, Britain, France, Russia, Japan, Korea, China, Czech Republic, Lithuania, Portugal, Hungary, Brazil, Norway and Greece."

FWIW, "Britain, France, Russia, Japan, Korea, China, Czech Republic, Lithuania, Portugal, Hungary, Brazil, Norway and Greece" are not languages. Susanne2009NYC (talk) 03:00, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed.  Bramble  claw  x   22:30, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Plot Help
We should remove all that junk about where it takes place, (it's on the image anyway) and expand the plot. We also don't need a whole paragragh about the prolauge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.64.182.93 (talk) 23:27, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's better to keep the stuff on where it takes place (this is actually a very important section!). The prologue paragraph is fine, but I do agree that the plot summary is a bit short.  Bramble  claw  x   23:30, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that much of the plot was cut and shortened down by the GA reviewer and I thought that it was a nice concise version. I wouldn't mind beefing it up some as long as it only has the big details. Probably more information on the betrayal and Ravenpaw. Derild  49  21  ☼  01:50, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * My thoughts exactly. Maybe a mention of how Sandpaw and Dustpaw made fun of him too, since the Erins mentioned that being a new kid was one of the ideas they tried to portray.  Bramble  claw  x   01:55, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

But about the setting. Why couldn't we split it into a sub-section in the plot? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.64.182.93 (talk) 04:12, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * We could, but right now, the section is so short there's really no point.  Bramble  claw  x   22:07, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

E-book question
The Article states that's it's available in e-book and amazon kindle formats.The Kindle is an e-reader though.So should it just say e-book format?--Nyswimmer (talk) 12:32, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Er... was that you, the person who commented above as well? And um... i don't know about the e-book thing. I suppose so, but for some reason, all the Warriors articles mention them separately... weird. I'll think about it.  Bramble  claw  x   23:40, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

This is Nyswimmer sorry I forgot to sign before --Nyswimmer (talk) 12:32, 10 February 2011 (UTC) 23:46, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

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Yellowfang
The plot section has no mention of Yellowfang or the supposed connection between her disappearance and the missing kits. I think the plot section should be redone to show that. Jak474 (talk) 16:28, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * We can add it, but the problem is that the plot summary is limited to 700 words. Some stuff has to be left out, unfortunately. White Arabian Filly  Neigh 23:11, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

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"Kits"
Does "kits" refer to kittens? It's an odd word choice – probably used in the book but perhaps not interpretable by Wikipedia readers. —&#8288;&#8202;&#8288;BarrelProof (talk) 22:59, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Potentail edits
I believe there are a few missing details about Yellowfang's involvement and introduction to the clan as well as Firepaw and Graypaw becoming Fireheart and Graystripe at the end of the book. Ruin0517 (talk) 11:46, 18 April 2024 (UTC)