Talk:Invention of radio/Archive 4

Tesla invented radio...not Marconi.
Tesla invented the radio...not Marconi. This was held up in the Supreme Court. It's time to change the history books and recognize the true inventor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Louisebbb (talk • contribs) 04:26, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
 * This talk page is for suggestions on how to improve the article, which you don't appear to have read. The first sentence says "Many people were involved in the invention of radio in its current form." and nowhere does it say that Marconi invented it. Richerman    (talk) 08:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
 * No he didn't. See: http://earlyradiohistory.us/tesla.htmSQMeaner (talk) 15:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Neither Tesla nor Marconi can be said to have invented radio. Marconi certainly built a practical product and business from it.  Tesla professed to not believing in radio waves, so he pretty well fumbled the future.  If you read Tesla's early papers, he started by building high-frequency generators, and then switched to using Sir Oliver Lodge's spark-gap oscillator (he credited Lodge).  His new idea was to build a step-up transformer, and he realized that the primary and secondary circuits had to be tuned.  That may be his original invention.    DonPMitchell (talk) 17:23, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Looking through RS on the history of radio communication you find one universal conclusion, the inventor of the communication medium was...... wait for it..... Marconi. Discussions on "who manged to transmit x amount of feet when" miss the early to mid-1890s point: radio was a laboratory phenomenon and the people working with it thought it totally useless for communication. Go to a great deal of expense to build a radio based telegraph that could not transmit over the horizon (this was considered "invisible light" back then), and in fact was shown to only transmit 1/2 mile?.... Lodge, the "Maxwellians", and Tesla could see no use for that. The one use you see mentioned over and over again before Marconi was "radio lighthouses", they knew radio would penetrate fog and ships that needed to pick up that very short range transmission may be a good market. It all changed after Marconi built a radio based wireless telegraph and transmitted over the horizon with it. This was not a case of everyone was trying to build radio and Marconi was the first to succeed, it was a case of no one was building radio and Marconi was the first one (who was dumb enough?) to try it. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 19:40, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
 * This reference used in the article -- supposedly debunking Tesla's claim to the invention of radio -- is a political screed, and at least partially fabricated:
 * ^ earlyradiohistory.us, Thomas H. White, Nikola Tesla: The Guy Who DIDN'T "Invent Radio", November 1, 2012
 * Among other problems, it fails to mention that Tesla publically demonstrated radio in an electrical exhibition at Madison Square Garden in 1898, three years before Marconi's transatlantic transmission. Marconi was perhaps the first to demonstrate practical long-range communication using radio, but Tesla had been working with it in shorter range applications since at least 1895.
 * Either the text needs to be rewritten, or a better reference found to support the existing text. User:74.95.43.249 23:56, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Marconi was also doing experiments in practical radio communication in 1995. As Richerman say about this article at the top of this section, 'The first sentence says "Many people were involved in the invention of radio in its current form." and nowhere does it say that Marconi invented it'.  Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:05, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Reliable sources (and Tesla himself) point out that he was not actually working with radio but instead was basing his systems on conduction/resonant inductive coupling. His radio controlled boat was the (only?) exception. He actually used radio techniques for that one. 1898 still makes him an "also ran" in radio, Marconi started specifically pursuing radio based telegraphic communication in December 1894, Lodge laid out the basics of radio wave detection in August 1894 (although he seems to have been uninterested in communication), and radio wave transmission dates back to Hertz 1886-88 experiments. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 15:26, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Landell de Moura X Fessenden
There are public records attesting that Landell de Moura was the first person to send wireless audio by means of electromagnetic waves on 3 June 1900, and more than one testimony assure that he was doing so for some time before that date. Now my editions were removed stating that the first one was Reginald Fessenden, but according to the text his experiment was conducted on 23 December 1900. Who deserves the merit? Tetraktys (talk) 17:25, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

I have also cited a paper from the Proceedings of the 2004 IEEE Conference on the History of Electronics but is was removed as "not listed". according to this and this sources, it was. Tetraktys (talk) 17:48, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to go with the original source, that is the conference listing page at which lists the paper by Alencar being Alencar, Marcelo, Thiago Alencar and Juraci F. Galdino, When Communications Entered the War and not What Father Landell de Moura Used to Do in His Spare Time. E bruton (talk) 15:16, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

It should be noted Wikipedia is not a work based on primary sources or the observations of its editors (see WP:PST and WP:OR) so we do not infer anything from testimonials. "Encyclopedia of Radio", edited by Christopher H. Sterling, page 834 notes Landell de Moura was grouping an acoustic telephone, a Photophone, and a crude radio wave transmitter in his device. This source notes voice was carried over the acoustic telephone and the Photophone with the radio part ringing a bell to signal a call. It is unclear from this that de Moura ever sent voice over the "radio" portion of this device and there seems to be no reliable claim he did so early on. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 19:02, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

I am not writing after primary sources. I have cited academic papers. However, academic papers usually rely on primary sources. Would that be considered unnaceptable on wikipedia? There are many brazilian studies accepting newspapers' testimonials as well as other primary sources. ("There is amounting literature in Brazil denouncing the injustice against Landell de Moura and recording his name as the true father of the radio". Santos, 2003).

His first brazilian patent, submitted in 1900 and granted on March 9 1901 describes his device as capable of “projecting voice through space to regular distances". (p. 25). Ferrareto (as well many others) takes as reliable the notice published by the newspaper Jornal do Commercio on June 3, 1900, stating that Landell was able to demonstrate, before public, authorities and the british Consul, his researches on wireless transmission of sound, light and electricity, "with brilliant success". The same newspaper, which was one of the most important brazilian newspapers at that time, published few days later a letter from Landell where he describes in detail that experiment, declaring that there were performed 5 devices. 2 of them were capable of transmitting sound without wires, the anematophore and the teletiton. The first one was able to produce "all effects of common telephony", the other, "sort of phonetic telegraphy, by which means, wireless, two people can communicate without being heard by others". The researcher cites also the testimonial of Rodrigo Batet, who said that he had eyewitnessed many of his experiments on wireless telephony and telegraphy earlier than 1900. (p. 44-45) Recently one of his devices, the "wave trasmitter", was reconstructed by an engineer and technicians working for the Fundação de Ciência e Tecnologia, and it transmitted voice, not just telegraphic signals, up to 50 meters. The voice was badly distorted but it effectively transmitted sound. The technicians noted that in Landell's times the distance could be longer because of the lack of modern electromagnectic interference. The same device was later replicated by a commercial firm and got similar results. (p. 46) Concluding, Ferrareto states that "the existing evidence points, therefore, to Landell de Moura's success on transmission and reception of voice even if its quality wouldn't allow for the immediate practical use of his devices". (p. 47)

Marcelo Sampaio de Alencar, Professor at the Instituto de Estudos Avançados em Comunicações (Universidade Federal de Campina Grande), calls him "the world pioneer of wireless transmission", based on the same evidence. (p. 73) César Augusto Azevedo dos Santos presented a paper at the XXVI Congresso Anual em Ciência da Comunicação, where he follows the same line. Nascimento, 2005:16; Souza, 2014; Ferreira, 2013, Fabrim, 2013:24 and others, all acknowledge his pioneership. Maurício Tuffani, chief-editor of Scientific American Brasil, states in an article written for the journal Ponto Crítico, sponsored by the Universidade Estadual Paulista: ”There is no doubt regarding the pioneersdhip of Landell on wireless voice transmission. There is no known record of such experiments earlier than that on June 3, 1900”. A short biography published by the Laboratório de Dispositivos e Nanoestruturas of Universidade Federal de Pernambuco cites him as “the first inventor of wireless telephone”. another short biography by the Centro de Tecnologias e Recursos Naturais (Universidade Federal de Campina Grande). The Landell de Moura Prize, granted by the Brazilian Society of Microelectronics, states that “he pioneered on wireless voice transmission even before other inventors such as the Canadian Reginald Fessenden and the Italian Guglielmo Marconi”.

I could easily cite other authors. Wikipedia editors aren’t entitled to criticize sources like those. Otherwise we’d do original research, which is forbidden by our rules. sorry for my bad english, but i guess i've made me clear. Tetraktys (talk) 23:52, 29 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Lots of sources related to a subject will make claims about the subject - that is why WP:V requires reliable, third-party sourcing. A search on your claimed "Landell de Moura X Fessenden" brings up nothing to get us past "not broadly supported by scholarship in its field" (WP:FRINGE) and works on the general topic of radio do not mention Landell de Moura or do not put forward a Landell de Moura claim over Fessenden. Also the sources you are citing claim wireless voice communication... that may be true but that is not "radio", other things are wireless and Landell de Moura was using two of them. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 16:03, 30 October 2015 (UTC)


 * his entry written by Edward A. Riedinger on Encyclopedia of Radio Volume 3, edited by Christopher H. Sterling, states: "In the 1890s and early 1900s, Father Roberto Landell de Moura produced a series of wireless communication devices that were as original in their day as they were unrecognized. [...] During 1893 and 1894 he demonstrated these ideas in the center of the city of São Paulo. He transmitted sound without wires between two of the highest points in the city, over five miles apart, using a type of three-electrode conductor lamp. These demonstrations occurred in the presence of the British Consul and years before similar demonstrations were made by Marconi and de Forest".


 * The same entry you have cited, written by Robert H. Lochte, states: "By 1893 Landell was sending messagens over distance of five miles. Then two years later, a powerful bishop witnessed a demonstration. He was so unnerved by the voices coming from nowhere that he declared the apparatus the work of the devil and ordered Landell to stop his work". p. 834 Tetraktys (talk) 17:34, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * 'a type of three-electrode conductor lamp' does not sound like radio to me. Martin Hogbin (talk) 17:48, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * ok, so can you tell what he is doing in an encyclopedia of radio? Tetraktys (talk) 20:31, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm with Tetraktys. Roberto Landell De Moura's claim is well-sourced and easily verifiable. Just because it doesn't fit some arbitrary definition of 'mainstream', which seems highly subjective to me anyway, seems like a poor reason for dismissal. Incidentally, here's a couple more references from reliable sources which you can feel free to use: http://www.aminharadio.com/radio/files/Artigo-Revista-PCP-USA.pdf and https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=08GhAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA9&dq=Moura+Radio&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CGEQ6AEwCTgKahUKEwji-P3gs-vIAhUBVBoKHdtJD7I#v=onepage&q=Moura%20Radio&f=false
 * EDIT: I'd just like to clarify something, as I'm not sure if I may have misunderstood the argument being presented here. I do believe De Moura's experiments with radio in 3rd June 1900 are well documented and should be included in the main article but anything before that I'm not so sure on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SQMeaner (talk • contribs) 23:51, 30 October 2015 (UTC)


 * here another third-party source (Gordon Bathgate, Voices from the Ether: The History of Radio, p. 9): "Between 1893 and 1894, Roberto Landell de Moura, a Brazilian priest and scientist, conducted experiments in wireless transmission. He didn't publicize his achievement until 1900, when he held a public demonstration of a wireless transmission of voice in São Paulo, Brazil on June 3".
 * "The first person to transmit the human voice wireless through radio was Brazilian priest Roberto Landell de Moura in 1900..." William Forde Thompson (ed.), Music in the Social and Behavioral Sciences: An Encyclopedia, p. 927

other third-party sources:
 * "In 1893 he is believed to have made a working model of a wireless telephone system and later demonstrated it to the bishop of São Paulo". Anand Kumar Sethi, The Business of Electronics: A Concise History, p. 23
 * "Father Landell de Moura is a little known pioneer of wireless transmission of voice. In 1900 he publicly demonstrated voice transmission while others were merely transmitting Morse code". Microwave Hall of Fame Part I, Microwaves 101, published in association with The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers and IEEE Microwave Theory and Techniques Society
 * "The Brazilian wireless pioneer Roberto Landell de Moura had learned of Bell’s invention while studying physics in Rome during the mid-1880s. Landell incorporated acoustic and electric photophones, as well as a crude Hertz-type transmitter, into a wireless telephone for which he received patents in both Brazil (1901) and the United States (1904)." Robert H. Lochte, Going Wireless In 1880, In: Invention & Technology Volume 16, Issue 1, 2000
 * The successful transmission of voice over a radio link, as initially mentioned in this article, is reported to have occurred as early as 1893, thus two years before Marconi’s well publicized trial". Michel Daoud Yacoub and Helio Waldman, From Father Landell de Moura Toward the 27st Century, In: Global Communications Newsletter, IEEE Digital Library
 * "By 1900, a Brazillian inventor named Roberto Landell de Moura, also a theologian, had not only written about sound waves but was able to publicly demonstrate, well ahead of Marconi, radio broadcasts of the human voice". Paul Elliman, Voices Falling Through the Air, In: Journal of Conservation and Museum Studies
 * "Australia's first radio "broadcast" is credited to George Fisk, who broadcast the Australian national anthem from one building to another at the Royal Society of NSW in 1919, nineteen years after the Brazillian priest Father Roberto Landell de Moura demonstrated the broadcast of his voice through an electromechanical microphone and a wave transmitter". Jarrod Watt, Australia's forgotten radio pioneer: the amazing Henry Sutton, in: ABC Ballarat
 * "In 1900 Brazilian Priest Roberto Landell de Moura conducted the first public experiments on the transmission of human voice by wireless". [Anne Geniets, The Global News Challenge: Market Strategies of International Broadcasting Organizations in Developing Countries, p. 158, Note 3]
 * "Wireless telephony is reputed the most important discovery of Landell". Discovery of Radio, Teslaresearch website
 * "In 1900, Brazilian priest Roberto Landell de Moura wirelessly transmitted the human voice for the first time". A Brief History of The Radio
 * "In 1900, Brazilian priest Roberto Landell de Moura transmitted the human voice by wireless. According the newspaper Jornal do Comercio (June 10, 1900), he conducted his first public experiment on June 3, 1900". Radio, Academic Room
 * "Between 1893 and 1894, Roberto Landell de Moura, a Brazilian priest and scientist, conducted experiments. He did not publicise his achievement until 1900 but later obtained Brazilian patent". History of radio, Nepal Radio.org
 * "In the same year [1900] in Brazil, Roberto Landell de Moura managed to transmit voice wireless, all these opening the way of using radio waves for different purposes". Liviu-Viorel BÎRSAN, RADIO SPECTRUM MANAGEMENT IN THE ROMANIAN ARMED FORCES, in: Romanian Military Thinking Journal
 * "Landell de Moura (1861–1928) – Inventor who was the first to accomplish the transmission of the human voice by a wireless machine". Dennis Byrne, The schnook he's talking about is the Chicago Sun-Times' Neil Steinberg, In: Chicago Sun Times

there is growing number of third-party sources from many countries that could be cited. so i think that calling this claim as a Fringe Theory is an outdated opinion. note also that most of these sources include him in the history of the radio, so discussing what type of mean he was using is not of our concern. and please, don't tell me that this whole article was written after great encyclopedias and broad general histories of radio, because the reference list tells it was not. so, what are we going to do now? Tetraktys (talk) 01:00, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

come on guys, do you have any other objection to this claim? i have cited 2 encyclopedias, 2 general histories, the IEEE Hall of Fame and several other secondary, third-party sources. is there any reasonable need for more? i don't want to start an edition war, so we need to settle this issue here. Tetraktys (talk) 06:52, 1 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry, holiday here so thanks for following WP:BRD. The sources vary widely in the claims they make ranging from "successful transmission of voice over a radio link, as initially mentioned in this article, is reported to have occurred as early as 1893" to "Landell incorporated acoustic and electric photophones, as well as a crude Hertz-type transmitter, into a wireless telephone for which he received patents in both Brazil (1901) and the United States (1904)" - pointing to them not being very reliable, this is more like a game of telephone than anything resembling scholarly research. Most of these cites do not contradict Encyclopedia of Radio/Sterling (Riedinger letter) that this was wireless via "light waves", not "radio waves", i.e. a copy/variation on the Photophone. A claim that Landell transmitted Voice via radio in 1893 brings out a WP:REDFLAG because it does not show up in very reliable sources such as Wireless: From Marconi's Black-box to the Audion by Sungook Hong (Landell does not even show up for that matter) - an exceptional claim like that would require multiple high-quality sources. This all seems to be based on confusion where writers mistake the word "wireless" for "radio", they are not necessarily the same. According the the high-quality sources we have on hand the "wireless" Landell was using to transmit voice was acoustic and light based, not electromagnetic waves. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 14:23, 1 November 2015 (UTC)


 * some of these sources are very precise telling of radio transmission. it must be noted also that engineers that recently reconstructed one of his devices (two times, by two different teams) told he used two different types of apparatus: one similar to photophone as you said, but the other (seems to me) a true radio transmitter, the Wave Transmitter, described in 2 articles on a festschrift dedicated to Landell published in 2012 by the Municipality of Porto Alegre in association with the Catholic Pontifical University of Rio Grande do Sul (Almeida, Hamilton, "A longa (e interminável) construção da biografia do padre Landell", pp. 17-37, Ferrareto, Luiz Artur, "Roberto Landell de Moura: o pioneiro brasileiro das comunicações", pp. 38-51, In: Klöckner, Luciano & Cachafeiro, Manolo Silveiro (orgs.). Por que o Pe. Roberto Landell de Moura foi inovador? Conhecimento, fé e ciência. EdiPUCRS, 2012):


 * He used a wave transmitter which used an electromechanical microphone, which collected sound waves into a resonating chamber where a metal diaphragm opened and closed the primary circuit of a Ruhmkorff coil, inducing in the secondary circuit a high voltage that was irradiated through an antenna or two scintillation spheres. The ability to transmit continuous waves derives from a valve whose characteristics approached the three-electrode valve, in fact a Crookes tube associated to an oscilator. Landell himself recommended the preferential use of shortwaves in order to increase the range of transmissions. the public test of one of these reconstructed devices, conducted in the presence of the State Governor of Rio Grande do Sul and hundred of people, successfully transmitted the words "Porto Alegre" in a wide frequency range at distances up to 50 meters, best received on medium waves and FM. and by the way, light waves are not electromagnectic waves? Tetraktys (talk) 16:54, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * "light waves are not electromagnectic waves?" - yes, they are, but light waves (towards the UV in the patent) are not radio waves.... different frequency. The Landell patents, as referenced by Sterling, are on line and confirms what is described in some of the better sources: The radio waves activated a cohere used to set off a "bell" or "howler" to signal the person at the other end, to send "articulate speech (the person) lights the arc lamp and speaks through one of the mouth pieces" (a Photophone). That seems pretty clear. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 17:48, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It does look to me that that the transmission of the audio signal is accomplished by means of light rather than radio waves.I think any claims of transmission of an audio signal by means of radio need to be better substantiated. Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:07, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

In this patent he declares: "The sonorous vibrations at the interrupter are transformed into electric OR light waves, which upon passing to the receiving station are there received and caused to affect suitable apparatus whereby they may render themselves apparent through the medium of a telephone receiver, a lamp, a Morse register, or the like. [...] The diaphragm of the interruptor being thus strongly vibrated causes oscillations of light OR electricity which may be received after transmission by means of any suitable sensitive device. In addition to this method of transmitting by means of electricity OR luminous waves, as i have said, certain of the features herein may be utilized in connection with my other systems. [...] I will observe that the most important and, in fact, the essential feature of my invention consists in the employment of a make-and-break transmitter worked by sonorous vibrations, causing THE TRANSMITTED ELECTROMAGNECTIC OR LIGHT WAVES to correspond closely to the sound-waves by which they are produced".

in many points of this US patent he declares that there are 2 ways of working: 1 by light and 2 by electricity. this matches perfectly the description i have transcribed above given by the engineers that reconstructed this very device. this matches also many testimonials from that time that say that he was using 2 means of transmission, and matches also the recent bibliography that accepted those primary sources, even if they were not aware of these contemporary proofs given by the two reconstructions, that say that this device looks like a radio, works like a radio, transmits like a radio, RECEIVES IN RADIO FREQUENCIES and speaks like a radio... but wait! it cannot be a radio! it must be a zebra! Tetraktys (talk) 21:23, 1 November 2015 (UTC)


 * i have to make note that this patent was granted after he constructed a working model. Tetraktys (talk) 21:28, 1 November 2015 (UTC)


 * There comes a point where we don't interpret primary sources and we are probably getting well past that here ...but, "may be received after transmission by means of any suitable sensitive device", "may be utilized in connection with my other systems" sounds like Landell didn't build that part, he is just stating patent priority if someone else builds a radio wave system based on his patent. If Landell's device just contained a Coherer he did not have that suitable sensitive device. If modern engineers built a system based on his patent that doesn't tell us Landell ever built it, its the same as people building airplanes, helicopters, parachutes, giant cross bows based on Da Vinci's plans, Da Vinci never built them. Reliable sources already give us the two voice transmission modes Landell's device worked in, acoustic and light. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 23:03, 1 November 2015 (UTC)


 * if you are not entitled to interpret don't do it. i told you that Landell built his devices and they worked, and only after that his patents were granted. that is attested by multiple sources. it is very important a testimony given by a newspaper from the USA, New York Herald, that tells us:


 * "Father Landell has left his native country, and for several months has been a resident of New York City. He has made applications to patent his inventions in the United States to the Patent Office at Washington. He received word that his theories were so revolutionary that patents could not be granted without the submission of working models to make practical demonstration of their verity. These models will supply as soon as he is in a position to do so". New York Herald, 26 Nov 1902.


 * After 2 years of work, he was able to fulfill the requirements, since the patents were granted in 1904. Although in this notice he speaks mostly of light transmission, that patent shows that he was working with 2 means of transmission. The patent was granted by the US goverment. isn't that certificate a trustful source? the books and articles think it is, but you disagree. based on what authority?


 * the Jornal do Commercio 11 Mar 1905 states clearly the use of both light and electromagnectic waves for transmission:


 * "O que dissemos em relação ao seu sistema de telefonia pela ação da luz, ocorre também com relação ao seu sistema de telegrafia e ainda pela cooperação da luz e cujo funcionamento baseia-se nos mesmos princípios do sistema de telefonia luminosa. Quanto ao outro seu sistema de telefonia também sem fio condutor, isto é, mediante ondas elétricas especiais, sem a mínima cooperação do eixo luminoso, e através do espaço, temos a dizer que ele foi o criador e o inventor não somente desse sistema, mas também do sistema de transmissão através do solo etc...".


 * ["What we have said about his system of telephony through light action, it works also regarding to his system of telegraphy with light cooperation and which working is based on the same principles of the light telephony system. Regarding his other system of telephony also wireless, through special electric waves, without any cooperation of light beams and through space, we have to say that he was the creator and inventor not only of this system, but also of the system of transmission through soil etc...."


 * There are many newspaper notices and personal testimonies from distinguished people such as the british consul, high brazilian authorities ad the like, from that time, that declares the very same thing. All recent bibliography is based on these primary sources, which are generally taken as trustful. All historians use primary sources, like as those who wrote about Landell. You cannot simply discard secondary sources written after primary sources, because this is a core Wiki principle. And as i said, recent reconstructions, described in good academic bibliography, worked just fine, just as his devices were described working fine on that primary sources. Then we have the US patent telling us the same thing. If you are not confortable interpreting sources, don't do it, and that's what all us on Wikipedia must do. Just accept what the sources say and that's all. And they say: He did it. If you are not prepared to accept that, so you should write a book criticising those many authors who did, but here is not the place to you rise your personal voice against them. It is absurd to think all them are insane or dind't do their job properly as you suggested. and i have not even cited the mass of personal blogs published by technicians, engineers and other respectful professionals and journalists all around the world who already accepts his pioneership. i'm sorry, I don't wish to be rude, but your objections are misplaced and you are doing original research. Tetraktys (talk) 02:48, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The 1904 patent actually shows that Landell de Moura could not have demonstrated this principle in 1900 because it is a basic principle of patents that the invention must not be disclosed before the patent application.


 * We already do have a paragraph on Landell de Moura which talks about his work. It might help if you were to say exactly what you want to add to the article. Martin Hogbin (talk) 12:18, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

"newspapers", "the british consul", "high brazilian authorities", "blogs", "technicians", "engineers", and "other respectful professionals" fall into the pitfalls of WP:V because we are dealing with non-experts in the field (the field is history BTW), sources that are not necessarily fact checking, and sources that have an obvious POV axe to grind. When we go beyond that morass of material that comes up in any Google search and turn to the "better sources" recommended by WP:V we get a very different story re: Christopher H. Sterling's 2003 Encyclopedia of Radio describes an augmented photophone and Sterling's 2013 Biographical Dictionary of Radio drops Landell de Moura all together and specifically states "the historical record makes it clear that Fessenden was the first person to transmit voice and music" (page 140). Searching Fessenden voice radio in Google books brings up allot of books covering history of radio and no claims of a Fessenden/Landell de Moura dichotomy, and in fact no real mention of Landell de Moura at all, pointing to this being more of a manufactured claim than something that appears in history books. The fact that Landell de Moura was using bells and coherers shows he was reading and following what other radio experimenters had already come up with. Adding a minor radio component to his device puts Landell de Moura in the league of radio "also rans", one of hundreds of inventors that did minor radio experimentation that does not showing up in radio history books and should probably not be in this article either. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 17:16, 2 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Biographical Dictionary of Radio is an American history of radio, as he states: "here our focus is entirely on American radio biography" p. vi . but i see. i won't fight any more over this. i just have to say that it is very typical of euro-american bibliography to neglect III World accomplishments working mostly on euro-american sources and refusing to look around. when one looks and find something interesting it immediately is put aside as "non-mainstream" and "non-trustful". i wonder when it would be incorporated into mainstream in this endogamic system. my regards. Tetraktys (talk) 00:02, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * There is no desire here to neglect the accomplishments of anyone, wherever they may come from. On the other hand our job us not to promote individuals on poor quality evidence.


 * We have had users here with a strong interest in a paricular person (Tesla and Hughes for example), which they try to promote through the medium of WP, claiming all sorts of conspiracies against them.  The reality is that neither Tesla, Hughes, nor Landell de Moura played any significant role in the invention and development of radio.  By all means let us improve the section in this article on Landell de Moura but it is not our job to push priority claims on the basis of unclear and conflicting evidence.  Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:09, 3 November 2015 (UTC)


 * and how could we even improve his section if you do not accept my surces? it is disgusting to see that you despise brazilian academic work, thinking that all local scientists are involved in a huge conspiration to falsify history. THAT thinking i would call a conspiracy theory. yes, we are not the greatest power in science, but that does not mean that our job should be disqualified so easily. and you reject recent research outside US borders, such as the 2 reconstructions of his US patented device, which worked like radio before huge public, academics and authorities, documented by many brazilian sources. but brazilian sources do not account. so, what could we do to improve his section? nothing! Tetraktys (talk) 20:33, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, I do believe Landell De Moura anticipated Fessenden in the transmission of audio over radio waves, certainly by 1900 though I'm not as certain about earlier dates.SQMeaner (talk) 21:32, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I have nothing whatsoever against Brazilian sources but it is not clear from your sources exactly what Landell De Moura did and how he did it. It is clear though that he cannot have used the principles disclosed in his 1904 patent before the application date because, if he had done so, the patenmd would have been rejected.


 * Let me ask you again, what wording would you like to add to the article? If you tell us then we can discuss it sensibly without talk of conspiracies and hidden agendas. Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:44, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

my wording would be the sources' wording. you may choose which one to use, since my english is not perfect, and write after what they say.

i think that it is not so clear that he cannot have used the same principles disclosed in his 1904 patent. in fact he did. in the the wave transmitter patent 1904 he states "In such transmission, and particulnrly in telephoning, I may use devices similar to those described in my prior application filed October 4, 1901, serial No. 77.576". we know that the Patent Office didn't accept just a project and required practical demonstration with a working model, so he had to build one, completed only in 1904, when the patent was granted. it is obvious that he couldn't have invented all this in the blinck of an eye, and must have been working along similar lines way before 1901, when he submitted his first application to the Office. it seems very difficult to find good reasons to deny he was working with such devices since at least 1900, when he demonstrated them in public in Brazil on June 3. now we go to the several brazilian sources and and they say he was doing so since many years before.

if you want to improve Landell's section, use the sources i have cited. i think that there are many good ones. you may pick any one at your discretion. i do preffer you write the text, as i said, my english is not good enough. Tetraktys (talk) 01:01, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * let me add some general information about Landell. his life has been researched since not long ago. his first biography by Ernani Fornari dates from the 60's. this biography was a pioneer work and naturally had many errors, although it collected many valuable material. however, it was a landmark and gave rise to a tradition, naturally repeating its flaws until nowadays. mainly because that we have now such inconsistencies being told by different sources. but since then many papers unknown before came to light, changing the knowledge about him in important ways. Hamilton Almeida is now his main biographer, and has been researching from about 30 years. he improved the knowledge in many ways. in 2012 the Pontifical University of Rio Grande do Sul, one of the best private brazilian universities, published a festschrift dedicated to Landell synthesizing the state of the art. In this book Almeida tells us that in 1976 he found many autograph papers and started a project to get them analysed by experts in engineering and electronics. a high profile team was formed with technicians working for the Centro de Pesquisa e Desenvolvimento da Telebras (Telebras Research and Development Center). Telebras is a huge company, for many years hold the State monopoly of telecommunications development in the country and still is one of the most advanced technological research center in Brazil. Almeida tells us that engineer Eduardo Diniz Schlaepfer lead the team. they analysed the US patents and his other works and they found that Landell indeed preceded Fessenden and was the first person to send continuous waves wireless, and they told what is now of general knowledge: that Landell used two means of transmission, light AND electomagnectic waves Almeida, 2012, pp. 20-22. Almeida recognises, as well as other brazilian researchers, that the dates of 1893-4 are still controversial, because there isn't a public record of such experiments, we have just personal testimonies. however, he says also that the date of 1900 is generally accepted as trustful, having a public record published by 2 of the biggest brazilian newspapers, followed by many other notices, all confirming that experiment, which, with the help of technical records such as the US patents and others, confirms his pioneership. Almeida described also the 2 recent reconstructions of his wave transmitter (the first one done by the Science and Technology Foundation, one of the main State research centers of the State of Rio Grande do Sul, and the 2nd one, 20 years later, by engineers from a private company), both getting very similar results, transmitting sound through an antenna in radio frequencies, and not by light. well, this is a true radio, isn't it? the first reconstruction was successfully demonstrated in public in 1984. (Almeida, pp. 26-27)


 * In the same festschrifft, Luiz Ferrareto, PhD in Communication and Information, analysed the evidences and the reconstructions and confirmed what the Telebras team found, saying: "the existing evidence points, therefore, to Landell's success on transmission and reception of voice even if its quality wouldn't allow for the immediate use of the devices he created". Ferrareto, 2012, p. 47. Marcelo Sampaio de Alencar, Professor at the Institute of Advanced Studies in Communication at the Federal University of Campina Grande, accepted the same evidences and got the same conclusions. Alencar, 2012, pp. 73-79. Daltro Darisbo, founder of the Radio Museum of Rio Grande do Sul, said the same things. Darisbo, 2012, pp. 75-79 Tetraktys (talk) 07:12, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * If you want to add something to the substantial paragraph on Landell de Moura that we already have, it is up to you to give some indication of what you want to add. I appreciate that English is not your first language but you need to give some indication of what you think needs saying.  I am sure that someone will be able to help with the English. Martin Hogbin (talk) 10:10, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * ok, i will write a new text and submit to you adjust the wording to good english. but first of all, in your opinion, are these evidences solid enough? Tetraktys (talk) 16:05, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It depends what you want to say. When we know that we can discuss whether it is justified. Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:09, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

here my suggestion:

Roberto Landell de Moura, a Brazilian priest and scientist, conducted experiments in wireless in Campinas and São Paulo between 1893 and 1894. His life just recently has been researched and those first experiments remain somewhat controversial, they were attested by many personal testimonies but no public experiment was conducted until 1900. He worked with two different means of transmitting messages: electromagnectic waves and the light, transmitting electrical signals and sounds. Robert H. Lochte, on the Encyclopedia of Radio, states that after his studies in Rome, “when returning to Brazil in 1886, Landell set up a laboratory and began electrical experiments. His interest turned to wireless. He built acoustic telephones, a model of Bell's Photophone, and, soon after he learned of Herts's and Branly's work, his own electromagnectic wave transmitter and receiver. Then he combined the three into one multifunction wireless telephone system. By 1893 Landell was sending messages over a distance of five miles”. Recent brazilian research claims that Father Landell must have preceded Reginald Fessenden on wireless transmission of voice by means of electromagnectic waves. This claim is based on the study of his theoretical and practical work, as well as his US patented devices and on a record of a successful public experiment conducted in São Paulo on June 3, 1900.

One year after the above experiment in public, he received his first patent from the Brazilian government for an "equipment for the purpose of phonetic transmissions through space, land and water elements at a distance with or without the use of wires". Four months later, he left Brazil for the United States of America with the intent of patenting his devices in the U S. On 1901 he submitted his first applications to the Patent Office, but a project alone was not enough, and he was required to provide practical demonstration with working models, so he had to build three devices. According to Lochte, “hampered by poor legal advice, illness and inadequate knowledge of the U.S. patent system, Landell nevertheless persisted”, and, having completed his models in 1904, he obtained three US patents on wireless technology: "The Wave Transmitter" (October 11, 1904), "The Wireless Telephone", and the "Wireless Telegraph", both dated November 22, 1904. He was spotlighted in an article published in 1902 by the New York Herald, calling him "inventor of the wireless telephone apparatus".

Hamilton Almeida has been conducting researches on him for some 30 years. He published a biography and 3 more works on Father Landell’s life and work. In 2012 the Pontifical Catholic University of Rio Grande do Sul in association with the Municipality of Porto Alegre published a festschrift synthesizing the state of the art about him. In this book Almeida tells us that in 1976 he started a project to get Landell's work analysed by experts in engineering and electronics. A high profile team was formed with technicians working for the Centro de Pesquisa e Desenvolvimento of Telebras, a great federal company which for many years hold the State monopoly of telecommunications development in the country. Engineer Eduardo Diniz Schlaepfer lead the team. They analysed the US patents and other evidences and concluded that Landell indeed preceded Fessenden, being the first person to transmit sound wireless by means of electromagnectic waves. Almeida described also two recent reconstructions of his Wave Transmitter, the first one done by the Science and Technology Foundation of Rio Grande do Sul, and the 2nd one by engineers from a private company, both getting very similar results, transmitting sound through an antenna in radio frequencies. The sound, however, was badly distorted and the words were hardly understandable. The first reconstruction was successfully demonstrated in public in 1984, when a little crowd gathered in a Porto Alegre park heard the words "Porto Alegre" uttered through the device by the State Governor Jair Soares.

Luiz Ferrareto, PhD in Communication and Information, analysed the evidences and the reconstructions and confirmed what the Telebras team found, saying: "the existing evidence points, therefore, to Landell's success on transmission and reception of voice even if its quality wouldn't allow for the immediate use of the devices he created". Marcelo Sampaio de Alencar, César Augusto Azevedo dos Santos, Daltro Darisbo and other Brazilian researches have drawn similar conclusions.

His pioneership is accepted by some other authors. Gordon Bathgate, on Voices from the Ether: The History of Radio, states that "between 1893 and 1894, Roberto Landell de Moura, a Brazilian priest and scientist, conducted experiments in wireless transmission. He didn't publicize his achievement until 1900, when he held a public demonstration of a wireless transmission of voice in São Paulo, Brazil on June 3. He was granted a Brazilian patent in 1901 before securing three more for a Wireless Transmitter, a Wireless Telephone and a Wireless Telegraph. However these inventions failed to develop further due to lack of funding". He was cited on Music in the Social and Behavioral Sciences: An Encyclopedia, edited by William Forde Thompson, as "the first person to transmit the human voice wireless through radio”. Edward Riedinger, writing for the Encyclopedia of Radio, edited by Christopher H. Sterling, called Landell “the Marconi of Brazil [...] who experimented intensively and incessantly on wireless communication. By the early 1890s, he had anticipated or accompanied several European and American inventions for wireless sound transmission”.
 * Tetraktys, the article is called 'Invention of radio' not 'The life history and works of Roberto Landell de Moura'. Please have a look at the volume of text on other minor contributors to the subject.  You appear to be a personal advocate of one particular person just like those that we have had before for Tesla and Hughes. Martin Hogbin (talk) 22:15, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * ( edit conflict so seconding ) :The entry is WP:UNDUE by length and simply repeats the problems already cited above, re: mistaking "wireless" for "radio" - for example, Edward Riedinger specifically states the device he was describing was a wireless photophone using a "three-electrode conductor lamp" (wirless.... not radio). As per Martin Hogbin, with some modification this could (and probably should) be added to Landell de Moura, an article that is surprisingly sparse. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 22:36, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * you are very selective. you cite Riedinger but neglect Lochte, who spoke of a multifuncional device of electromagnectic waves transmission on the same book, and ignore entirely brazilian research. so fair... ok, i gave you material. do with it what you wish. Tetraktys (talk) 22:52, 4 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Tetraktys, your proposed addition would give de Moura more ink than Oliver Lodge. This is extreme WP:UNDUE WEIGHT. My feeling is that even the current de Moura section in the article is too long; the uninformative WP:PEACOCK quote from Batet could probably be cut.  Yes, we are selective; WP articles should be based on the best sources, and most of the sources you quoted above are nowhere near authoritative.   For example, the comprehensive Sarkar, et al (2006) History of Wireless doesn't even mention de Moura.  When and if he achieves a more prominent place in mainstream radio histories would be the time to give him a more prominent place in this article.    WP is not the place for WP:Righting great wrongs. -- Chetvorno TALK 13:27, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I removed the quote before reading this, so obviously I came independently to the same conclusion. I think the whole section should be moved to the 'wireless telegraphy' section as this seems to be his main claim to fame.  Where it is, it is irrelevant and out of chronological order. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:46, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

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Refactor illogical structure
Cleanup:
 * Two sections confusingly labeled "Wireless telegraphy"
 * People (Bose, Tesla, de Moura, Lodge, Popov) under "wireless telegraphy" who were not attempting radio wireless telegraphy, they were developing radio waves, or radio devices not related to communication, or non radio wireless communication.
 * Article bounces around (in order): non radio wireless communication, precursor to electromagnetic waves, non radio wireless communication/precursor to electromagnetic waves/Hughes all in "Early attempts at wireless communication" (two of those three were not attempting wireless communication), proof of electromagnetic waves, (radio) Wireless Telegraphy with all mentioned there noted for never having attempted (radio) Wireless Telegraphy
 * Redundancy such as repeating Edison's induction system twice
 * Lost Landell de Moura because he was working on a photophone/megaphone, not a radio communicator
 * Trimmed back excessive biographical material not related to the Invention of radio, these people do have their own articles.

Moved material around into what is hopefully a more logical structure. Reword lead to match body. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 21:08, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Um...
This sentence in the lede: "Several inventors/experimenters came across radio waves before they were proven to exist but it was written off as electromagnetic induction at the time." This should be rephrased.

Radio is "electromagnetic induction". The transmitting antenna is essentially the input coil of an air-core transformer, for which the receiving antenna is the output coil. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 (talk) 23:31, 7 January 2020 (UTC)


 * No, I'm sorry, that is a complete misunderstanding of electromagnetism. I know this article is pretty bad, and I appreciate your desire to improve it, but the statement in the lede is accurate.  Electromagnetic induction and electromagnetic radiation are two different processes. Induction was discovered in 1831 and for 50 years a series of inventors tried to use loops and coils of wire for wireless communication, but failed; it is an inherently short range effect.  Electromagnetic radiation (radio waves) used higher frequencies that required a spark to produce, and properly shaped antennas to radiate efficiently.  Heinrich Hertz was the first researcher to identify radio waves in 1887.   At least two researchers stumbled on radio waves before him: Thomas Edison in 1875 experimented with "etheric currents", and  David Edward Hughes in 1879 transmitted radio waves when he was experimenting with his carbon microphone, but was persuaded that what he observed was induction.  That's what the sentence is referring to. These researchers are not usually given credit for discovering radio waves, since they didn't understand what they were doing and didn't publish, at least before Hertz. --ChetvornoTALK 20:02, 9 January 2020 (UTC)