Talk:Investment banking/Archive 1

?
The present articles on banking don't really show the hierarchy of Bretton Woods institutions > monetary > fiscal > securities regulation > private bank which, at least in theory, applies. The World Trade Organization kinds of muddles it though, one can argue that investment/trade policy is now above even the Bretton Woods institutions.

In part to relieve this problem, this was just added, Lester Thurow's claim comes from an '86 Esquire article


 * The World Bank and some central banks are considered by most economists to be investment banks. Lester Thurow claims that the US congress has also served exactly this function, advancing specific industrial policy and agricultural policy by direct grants or subsidies, loan guarantees, and exemption from regulations, taxes or expenses that would otherwise apply.


 * Rewritten but still applies.

--- In the article above the list of banks they use the term "private banks" which is not appropriate, nor do I understand the top talker here who also uses that word. These banks are not privately owned.

Investment banking should be put in context as the private, regulated, activity of non-state actors in a global market. It's subject to securities regulation.

This is different from what the public entities in each country do, in theory, but not in practice, as the public entities also grant loans, forgive debt and taxes, etc.. In many cases legislation specifically alleviates some expenses in exchange for equity - exactly the investment banking function. So fiscal policy gets blurry here, but all you can say is, this is *not* subject to agency regulation.

Then there's the global entities like the World Bank and the pan-national entities like the European Investment Bank (sic? the entity that runs the Euro), and those national institutions of equivalent scale - in China and the United States for instance. Monetary policy in all cases collides with bank type operations, although in the US the Fed doesn't do the banking functions, the US Congress *does*.

Private banking
Someone might want to add a section about the hedge funds and VC funds that are privately doing the same thing. They are not B/Ds, and not banks, but from the client corporations' view, these private groups of investors perform the same services just like the investment banks of yesteryear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.90.11.207 (talk) 22:09, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

The article says anks do private banking and personal wealth management. No: Banks are complicated entities nowadays and there are many banks which do investment banking and personal wealth management (and retail banking etc etc) but internally a bank which does both will not do both in the same department and there will be a Chinese wall between the two departments to avoid conflicts of interest. Paul Beardsell 09:59; 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

All of the talk about Federal Monetary Policy should not be included in the section of Investment Banking. It is the wrong topic. Move it to the Federal Reserve Section or Congress or Fiscal Policy, etc. but not in Investment Banking. It is why off topic. --Keetoowah 06:13, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This issue is really one of naming convention. In the simplest sense of the word, Investment Banks simply means helping corporations raise money in debt and equity capital markets, yet historically there have been many other separate "businesses" or "activities" that are associated with it, such as proprietary trading, research, Mergers and Acquisition advisory, and yes: private client services/private banking/wealth advisory/whatever you want to call it. The fact is that historically these different activities were associated with investment banks. Now obviously commercial banks and brokerages dealt with rich people too, but many investment banks even without a normal retail brokerage would have services to very high net worth customers. Its just legacy industry terminology and customary associations of activities.

No. It is not a issue of naming convention. Investment Banking is simply the act of raising money for a corporation. All of the activities may be performed by a bank or stockbrokerage but that does not make those activities investment banking. It is a very simple concept. Investment banking is raising either debt or equity or a combination of the two for a corporation to expand operations, purchase another company, etc. That's it. Now if trading or research is thrown in for the client then those are bonus activities, but they are not investment banking activities. Millions of people can be confused on this topic but that doesn't make those activities investment banking. --Keetoowah 06:17, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No one is saying that those activities are all "investment banking", rather they are the customary activities of an Investment Bank. If an investment bank also did sales and trading, it would still be called an investment bank, if it also did private banking (ie. high end wealth management) it will still be called an investment bank, if it also did insurance underwriting, it will be called a financial services conglomerate with two divisions. Do you see what I'm getting at? This is just how the industry delineates things. There are two senses of the word, the activity itself, and the word to describe a firm (which may engage in certain other activities customarily associated with investment banking firms).

I second the previous paragraph - there are investment banks that have, say, a markets division, and an investment banking division (IBD). So, an investment bank clearly does investment banking and other business, such as sales/trading, private wealth management, asset management, etc. 82.35.248.126 20:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The introductory section is still very poor and does not offer a useful definition of the activity. It's important to cover what these businesses define their function as being. But it is also important to describe the role investment banks play in the economy. Here, I think it's essential to stress that these institutions are primarily engaged in wholesale financial intermediation. Thus they play a part in connecting an economy's savers with its investors, but they tend not to provide a direct service for either.--Nmcmurdo 19:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It's worth pointing out that 'investment banking' isn't a clear description of a particular form of economic activity. For example, if we take a look at the current UK SIC system, the nearest things we find are listed below, by statistical hierarchy. Roughly speaking, when we talk about 'investment banking', we're thinking about 67.12, but not everything in there, and probably including some other activities. It would be interesting to see how the firms actually report / split their activity when compiling returns for GDP data etc.

SECTION J FINANCIAL INTERMEDIATION

67 ACTIVITIES AUXILIARY TO FINANCIAL INTERMEDIATION

This division includes: - provision of services involved in or closely related to financial intermediation, but not themselves involving financial intermediation

67.1 Activities auxiliary to financial intermediation, except insurance and pension funding

67.12 Security broking and fund management 67.12/1 Fund management activities This subclass includes: - portfolio management services provided by fund managers on behalf of clients, including decisions about the content of the portfolios

This subclass excludes: - security dealing on own account cf. 65.23/3

67.12/2 Security broking and related activities This subclass includes: - dealing in financial markets on behalf of others (e.g. stock broking) and related activities other than fund management

This subclass excludes: - security dealing on own account cf. 65.23/3 http://www.statistics.gov.uk/methods_quality/sic/

--Nmcmurdo 20:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Confusion with brokerages.
I have weakened the claim that investment banks and brokerages are often confused. Furthermore, if any confusion exists it is not with the type of brokers described. The brokers described are private client stockbrokers. Confusion sometimes arises between investment banks and corporate brokers. I intend to fix this as soon as I have decided on a form of words. (Of course, some people confuse banks with bicycles but I don't think we should note that in the article either.) Paul Beardsell 10:43, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That is false there is a massive amount of articles you can find from business magazines which call investment bankers "stockbrokers" and vice versa, or describe Goldman Sachs as a "brokerage" firm.

Brokerage is more-often than not a part of any investment bank's business. Even M&A boutiques are essentially selling securities when they nogotiate transactions. It may not be congruent with the conventional image of a stock-broker's role but it technically speaking is a form of brokerage. The clientele is merely diferent.

The US Government.
The bit about G-S being repealed because the congress acts like an investment bank is a bit crackpotish. Anyone care to show me a cite? Hipocrite 17:08, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

All of the talk about Federal Monetary Policy should not be included in the section of Investment Banking. It is the wrong topic. Move it to the Federal Reserve Section or Congress or Fiscal Policy, etc. but not in Investment Banking. It is why off topic. --Keetoowah 06:13, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm putting it on cleanup as there are lots of factual errors, and confusion between the brokerage divisions, private banking divisions and what some of the departments actually do. JuntungWu 14:46, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Why not try to fix it? --Goodoldpolonius2 18:57, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have to chip in that this article reads like it was written by people who've never done investment banking at a bulge bracket firm. These people need to realize that this world is very exclusive and they probably know very little about the actual terminology used by bankers and how this business operates. Unless you have a good amount of exposure to this business, don't meddle with what bankers decided is important and what is not, and what things should be called. For instance, Corporate Finance is not, and has never been, a synonym for Investment Banking. To add to the confusion, Citigroup has a Corporate Finance division that is totally different from its I-banking division (Corporate finance does corporate lending). I'm writing this with a personal interest in mind, my changeset just got reversed. Iav 06:15, 30 September 2005 (UTC)


 * the changes by Iav were reverted with the comment that they were POV. If anyone makes these remarks, please explain why you think so on these pages. I happen to agree with Iav - though if someone can convince me that he is wrong (using sources from market participants, rather than from academics who are usually a decade behind), then I'm more than happy to support them. Until then, I think we should stick with Iav's version. - DocendoDiscimus 21:41, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Corporate finance is in fact synonymous with investment banking. How long is your info doc?
 * not its not!

Basic definition
The most basic definition of an investment bank is that it underwrites indirect capital transfers. They act as a sort of "middleman" for the issuance of securities (stocks, bonds).

Someone who needs a very quick definition really would get confused by this article.Thegsrguy 16:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Compensation
Is it just me or does this section take up way too much of the article? Surely we should be focused on the activities of Investment Banking and relevant issues in the industry, not an (un-sourced for the most part) e-penis contest between the relative earning prospects of different professions/positions/banks.... Suicup 15:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

This section is just a set of informal anecdotes without any referencing. It reads like the notes of a graduate preparing his or her CV, rather than an encylopedia section. I suggest removal of this section - encylopedia entries on industrial sectors would not be expected to cover a stylised characterisation of company payroll structures (which will be inevitably time-sensitive).--Nmcmurdo 23:50, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. Suicup 07:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I won't cut it yet, but will yet, but will do if a few others agree. I notice the recent revisions to that section are just more vapid twaddle!--Nmcmurdo 21:02, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Have cut it. This change might not last, but with a bit of luck it will generate a more serious entry on this subject.--Nmcmurdo 12:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I see some laughable stuff emerged on the 'investment banking lifestyle', going right down into the detail of likely expense accounts! I support whoever deleted this - certainly not encyclopaedic. --Nmcmurdo 19:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but some of us out there would like some information and hard figures on compensation related to investment banking positions. This would aid in decisions regarding possible career paths for undergraduate and graduate students majoring in technical or financial positions.
 * No offence Anonymous, however if you are basing career decisions on a Wikipedia entry, you clearly aren't investment banking material. Cutting that paragraph was the right decision. Suicup 08:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

List of Banks
I have moved the list to here, as it was simply getting too large. Perhaps a simple sentence stating the largest bank in each region might be a good idea? Suicup 14:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

for computer gurus: diagram - hide function?
Hi - if someone knows how to add a 'hide' function on the diagram in the top of this article, please add it in. --ToyotaPanasonic 12:59, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

deal
how is a deal conducted? there are analyst, associates, and etc who work on the deal. then ... Can someone address this? and people can have some idea how human resources in an investment bank was structed to conduct a deal. Jackzhp 03:28, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Incomprehensible sentence
"Throughout the history of investment banking, it is only known that many have theorized that all investment banking products and services would be commoditized." What the heck does this mean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.64.213.32 (talk) 12:00, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Revenues
I am sorry to bother and I do not intend to edit anything, but there is something I wanted to point out.

In the wikipedia article about investment banking is written that global investment banking revenues were 52.8 Billion USD in 2005. Now if you look in the article about Goldman Sachs it says that its revenues were 46 Billion USD in 2007 and that is just one investment bank. So it might be that revenues have increase in the past couple of years but I doubt that it was so much.

Then again it might be that I have misunderstood something. Again sorry to bother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Charles125 (talk • contribs) 14:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to merge Investment banker into this article
This proposal comes from the discussion last month at WP:Articles for deletion/Investment banker where most participants suggested a merger. I'm afraid the article at present is a mess.Doug Weller (talk) 12:48, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The anonymous creator of this article has been a strong defender of it - his complaint on a user's talk page about the deletion is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Mackensen/Archive15#Repeated_vandalism. It's not particularly coherent, and I fail to see what the fact that one of the authors of another page could be Romanian has to do with anything, but it's his input on the matter.JustThatGuy2 (talk) 16:02, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Investment_banker&diff=prev&oldid=208442168 -- where it says "Above article by LEC (L E (Leon E) (Leon Earl)(Butch) Cooper (Jr)(Ens)" I am pretty convinced that's the guy who wrote this OR essay that he thinks he owns and can't be touched -- he also keeps putting his name in Cooper (surname) with external links, eg to ebooks he's trying to sell.Doug Weller (talk) 16:50, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The Research Team In Investment Banks
Investment Bankers are the underwriters of IPO's ,book runners,help companies raising money in capital markets,private placements,loan symdication as well as their major source of revenue is brokerage business and they have their own research team which picks the stocks and give signals. but i have never heard the letter 's' from their side i.e sell a stock .one study which claims that 95% of meryll lynch analyst always give the 'buy' signal which means stocks always trades above average price and are always below its intrinsic value which makes it cheaper to buy.this always misguides the investor and their hard earned penny loses value in their investments but now,with newer strategies within investment banks that one out of every five stock selected should not be given buying preference after weighting the stock competitively/appropiately would be working well as whole of financial community lives on information.Jain puneet (talk) 12:31, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Outsourcing Of Middle & Back Office Operations
Many Investment Banks have Outsourced Operations of their middle and back office to countries which are cheap in terms of labour.This have been beneficial for the banks leading increase in Profits due to low costs.At the Same time, Most Banks ensures that even at outsourced operations,employees are accomplished and adept & have a required skills set. However,Regulatory scenario is also responsible for middle office outsourcing.Every Year,heap of laws is introduced which baffles the bank's Working & forces them to outsource. Still,lots of outsourcing is yet to be seen as it is getting really difficult for banks to cover their initial outlays.Jain puneet (talk) 15:35, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Not sure why you decided to put all this here but if you want to put it into the article and if it satisfies WP:NOTE and Verifiability (so you'd need a notable source) then put it in (after some formatting). Zain Ebrahim (talk) 17:43, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Current Scenario in Investment Banks
Investment Bank is constantly developing.and its core area of development is investment banking products which are custom designed like exotic derivatives products.These Products have high Margins since buyers cant assess its economic value.But these Products cant be patented so other investment banks copies them easily.and this way margins are forced downward commodity Pricing. Most of its Profits comes from proprietary trading,where size of the trading has a positive impact,since more trade an investment bank does more it knows about the Market and therefore allows it to make better trades.Jain puneet (talk) 10:46, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Section on employment
I removed an unnecessary section on employment. It certainly didn't belong in the "Organisational Structure" section and it was merely a list of banks (which we have) coupled with unsourced "facts" (which we don't want). Zain Ebrahim (talk) 11:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Boutique Investment Banks-Suggestion for the article
Boutique Investment Bank is bank which offers very narrow range of services and they are independent ,not part of any large institutions that serves many competitive and potentially conflicted interests.It just focus on advisory work,, no research,trading,lending or related activities.It Provides dispute-free and client centric advise. Boutique investment banks tends to use third party providers to complete the deal. for eg,IPO will require use of one or many brokerage firms and some deals will involve raising debts too. so Boutique banks can source the best providers of these services and create some competitive advantage over others. I want to put this discussion on the main article for the reason that Boutique investment bank forms part of the investment banks and its not been mentioned in the article throughout.Jain puneet (talk) 15:11, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Look, we can't just add anything into the article that you think is necessary. You've added a few threads here indicating that you would like to improve the article in various ways and that's great but we can't add something unless you have a reference to back it up. Please read WP:Verifiability.


 * In the same vein, if you come across an unsourced questionable detail in the article, be WP:Bold and remove it. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 20:48, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Evolution of investment banks-US
Boom in the Capital Market in 1920's made commercial banks to acquire stock broking houses to have presence in such markets.The first such acquisition happened when the National City Bank of New York acquired Halsey Stuart and C0mpany in 1916.In Past,IB just meant Underwriting and Distribution of Services. while the boom lasted,investment affiliates made huge prifits as underwriting fees,specially in segment called 'Yankee Bonds'. Mc Fadden Act,1927 allowed bank subsidiaries to underwrite stock issues too. National City Bank,Chase Bank,Morgan and Bank Of America were the most aggressive Banks.But once the General Pubile joined the over-heated stock market with absurd price-earnings ratios,the bubble eventually burst in 1929 wiping out millions of dollars of bank. History of the Evolution of Investment bank is useful for this article and relevant for discussion. Jain puneet (talk) 11:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

How a Deal is Conducted in Investment Banking(Process-Capital Raising)
Most successful capital raising efforts are directed as follows:

1.The process begins with Capitalization Planning: Running a Financial Feasibility Analysis; Developing Comprehensive 5-Year Financial and Capitalization Plans calculated to GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principals) standards; Valuating the Companies/Venture Based on Future Financial Performance; Analyzing the Internal Rates of Returns on the many different types of securities that can be used to capitalize the company or venture; Analyzing the effects of equity ownership; Determine the Quantity, Type and Price of the securities and; Creating the ultimate “Marketable Deal Structure” that can be used to develop a securities offering that sells.

2.The next step is conducting a “Seed” capital round using a private placement securities offering under Regulation D 506 – no limit to amount raised.Capital can be raised from accredited investors, if done in compliance with the various securities regulations and from friends and family too.

3.A portion of the “Seed” capital is used to a.) further the protection of the company’s assets, i.e. intellectual property; b.) expand business operations; c.) provide ample working capital to pay executive and staff compensation and d.) more importantly, to fund a Broker Dealer relationship when you are ready and qualify for that relationship, to finish off your capitalization.and a Portion is used to produce the next securities offering document for an INTRA-State registered offering known as a SCOR offering – limit $1,000,000 per 12-month period and a Portion is used to fund the advertising and promotion of the securities.

4.For large corporate capitalizations or if the founders are ready to start liquidating some or all of their holdings, Investment Bankers assists company in the listing of its securities on the Pink Sheets, over-the-counter bulletin board, or Duly Listing services in exchanges.

This Possibly clarifies the process of the deal in IB(Capital Raising) for the query asked by one of the fellow reader. Source:Regulation D 506,Scor Offering Jain puneet (talk) 15:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

How a Deal is Conducted in Investment Banking(Process-Capital Raising)
Most successful capital raising efforts are directed as follows:

1.The process begins with Capitalization Planning: Running a Financial Feasibility Analysis; Developing Comprehensive 5-Year Financial and Capitalization Plans calculated to GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principals) standards; Valuating the Companies/Venture Based on Future Financial Performance; Analyzing the Internal Rates of Returns on the many different types of securities that can be used to capitalize the company or venture; Analyzing the effects of equity ownership; Determine the Quantity, Type and Price of the securities and; Creating the ultimate “Marketable Deal Structure” that can be used to develop a securities offering that sells.

2.The next step is conducting a “Seed” capital round using a private placement securities offering under Regulation D 506 – no limit to amount raised.Capital can be raised from accredited investors, if done in compliance with the various securities regulations and from friends and family too.

3.A portion of the “Seed” capital is used to a.) further the protection of the company’s assets, i.e. intellectual property; b.) expand business operations; c.) provide ample working capital to pay executive and staff compensation and d.) more importantly, to fund a Broker Dealer relationship when you are ready and qualify for that relationship, to finish off your capitalization.and a Portion is used to produce the next securities offering document for an INTRA-State registered offering known as a SCOR offering – limit $1,000,000 per 12-month period and a Portion is used to fund the advertising and promotion of the securities.

4.For large corporate capitalizations or if the founders are ready to start liquidating some or all of their holdings, Investment Bankers assists company in the listing of its securities on the Pink Sheets, over-the-counter bulletin board, or Duly Listing services in exchanges.

This Possibly clarifies the process of the deal in IB(Capital Raising) for the query asked by one of the fellow reader. Source:Regulation D 506,Scor Offering Jain puneet (talk) 15:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Bear Sterns
My entry of bear sterns removed. this fortune article clearly states "Wall Street survivors have shrunk in the space of six months from five to two", and unreferenced "bulge bracket list" is kept. Even if bear sterns isnt a bulge bracket, it deserves mention in this article. Inv bank scks (talk) 15:03, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

There are actually no more investment banks in the US, as the last two, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, reclassified themselves as bank holding companies. So the article is a bit out of date now, and most of it should probably be rewritten as a historical article. --Delirium (talk) 07:35, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * List of investment banks is pretty large, even just its "Independent Investment Banks" section. Collins Stewart, to take a random example, is described in its own article as "an independent investment bank". Yes, its HQ is in the UK, but as far as I'm aware this article is not called "Investment banking in the United States"... 86.136.250.154 (talk) 14:41, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * That's true, and I'd be fine with the article turning into more of a non-US focus. Actually what'd be most useful is to replace the current last paragraph of the intro, which lists 8 banks which are not investment banks, with one that lists some well-known companies that actually are investment banks. --Delirium (talk) 21:58, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Since
The use of the word "since" in the last sentence of the lead is improper grammatically. It is 1:30am on a Monday, but I fear there will be grave repercussions if this is not rectified quickly. We may already be too late. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.80.44.231 (talk) 07:35, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

US-focus
Does anyone else think the lead/intro section is too US-focused, particularly the last paragraph? --Dpr (talk) 18:05, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Hours
Aren't the extraordinarily long hours the industry supports and requires worth a mention? Typical working hours for investment bankers are in the 80-100 hour per week range - extraordinary figures that seem worth mentioning. There isn't an article for investment banker, like there is for say Lawyer or Doctor, and since that page redirects here I think there should be some information regarding the quite notable and unusual working hours. Renumeration, as extraordinary as it is, might be worth mentioning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.163.115 (talk) 08:08, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Investment banking vs. Investment bank
The title of the article is "investment banking", yet the introduction seems to describe the nature of an "investment bank". There is a difference, and I think either the article title needs to be renamed to "investment bank" (and have "investment banking" redirect to this article) or else modify the article so it primarily discusses "investment banking" as opposed to investment banks. --82.31.164.172 (talk) 02:23, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Reworked intro
I have added

"There are two main areas of activity in investment banking".

before the paragraph

"Trading securities for cash or for other securities (i.e., facilitating transactions, market-making), or the promotion of securities (i.e., underwriting, research, etc.) is the "sell side", while dealing with pension funds, mutual funds, hedge funds, and the investing public (who consume the products and services of the sell-side in order to maximize their return on investment) constitutes the "buy side". Many firms have buy and sell side components".

So that it reads more logically. However, I'm not 100% sure that this is correct. I wonder if anyone could confirm? Cheers, Jprw (talk) 06:06, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

History???
Shouldn't some qualified contributors add a History of Investment Banking section to this article? Wasn't such a section already named in whatever template was used to start this article? It's not like there is a dearth of experts who have studied and written about this. Mmmmkay thanks. 69.17.65.107 (talk) 23:52, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * There is in fact a history section, but not in this article. It's in Merchant banking, which is the UK term for investment banking. Maybe both articles should have a link to each other at the top? WCCasey (talk) 06:55, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

History of investment banking in the United States
I would like to draw your attention to a new article that I have created: History of investment banking in the United States. I admit that much of this text was drawn from earlier drafts which were variously titled Jews and money (now deleted), User:Pseudo-Richard/Jews and banking andUser:Pseudo-Richard/History of Jews in American banking. All of these drafts are "not ready for prime time". However, it occurred to me that there is an encyclopedic topic under the title "History of investment banking in the United States" so I decided to create it. Your contributions and suggestions for improvement are welcomed at Talk:History of investment banking in the United States. Thank you. --Pseudo-Richard (talk) 19:16, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Opacity - quote or not?
We have our article saying that investment banking is so opaque that it is difficult to know what is going on. In Wikipedia's voice. Can we get that in quotes? I am not in the UK and can't get the exact words that were used in the BBC clip, but right now it's an editorializing tone and we need that in quotes. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 20:31, 31 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The words come from 92.13.51.120. They were deleted by Kaveh.katebian on 28 May 2012. I reinstated them with improved citation. I can't find the quote online. It's an important issue. Where do we go from here? Wildfowl (talk) 23:04, 31 May 2012 (UTC)


 * We can rephrase that part to make it sound more encyclopedic. There is much better criticism of IB available anyway. It seems odd to rely on this flimsy sentence. Let me add this to my Wikipedia to do list: find good criticism of investment banking! The Sound and the Fury (talk) 14:01, 1 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Go for it! I will be interested to see what you come up with. Wildfowl (talk) 19:35, 1 June 2012 (UTC)


 * It took a while to get around to it but I rearranged that section and changed the format of the other sections. I will go back and read those other parts carefully, then consult some old textbooks about the presentation and other content. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 02:27, 12 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Good work! I have checked through the article, fairly superficially, and can't see any "deliberate mistakes" - but I have made one or two minor adjustments. And, by the way, I have ordered copies of Philip Augar's "The Greed Merchants" (cited in the article) and "The Death of Gentlemanly Capitalism". Wildfowl (talk) 22:25, 12 June 2012 (UTC)