Talk:Invictus

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Untitled
Noted reference to poem in a Nemi comicstrip was removed. Was the comic's rendering an inaccurate one or was the comic strip itself offensive in it's reference? Moggie (talk) 14:07, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I clearly remember Colin Powell reading Invictus to the American public on a national network. I remember it because he omitted the second stanza. I can't seem to remember when, though. Was it first Gulf War, post-9/11, or when? I've been looking for another source that references the reading, but I guess it wasn't considered terribly noteworthy at the time. Does anyone else remember this? SWAdair | Talk 11:28, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't the poem itself be on wikisource?


 * Especially where poetry is concerned, short items are often included directly in the article. See Jabberwocky for another example.  Long poems are best not included in the article, but short ones are fine, IMHO.  SWAdair | Talk  03:46, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * The poem is already on wikisource. Should one of the redundancies be deleted?  I think its better if the original text is on wikisource because that is what that database is for, IMHO. --Zippanova 05:26, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Wiki is not paper. Right now I don't know of any way to keep the text of the poem on wikisource and make it display on this page.  Anything that makes the text of the poem not display on this page will mean that the poem cannot be read on this page, and as such is inadequate.  -- Smerdis of Tlön

Please don't ditch this page as I've just linked to it. Shouldn't the poem be in verses, as well, for clarity? Cheers!

It is quoted in Casablanca. It is when Rick Blaine and Captain Renault are in Rick's office, I think to get money for some guy who won 20k francs. Rick takes a shot at Renault at he says something like "In Casablanca I am master of my fate, captain of my..." and then someone walks in and cuts him off. Rick says something like, "You were saying." -

It was also used in the movie 'There was a crooked man' starring Kirk Douglas & Henry Fonda it's while the new mess for the prisoners is being inaugrated by the lady chief guest.

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Source or Remove
This is becoming my new trademark stance on talkpages, "Source or Remove", I feel like such a reference-Nazi. Anyways, In the United States, this poem has become popular among paratroopers, many of whom commit it to memory to give them emotional support should they become a prisoner of war., source or remove. Sherurcij (talk) (bounties) 05:13, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

The poem is also quoted in "The House at Sugar Beach" by Helene Cooper BWHirsch (talk) 05:04, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

The Warrior Elite: The Making of Class 223 by Dick Couch says that at least on one occasion it was memorized and read aloud at graduation by Navy SEALS. The poem is fairly popular in the military.

question
What are the lines that appeal the sense of sight?

I believe it means top to bottom, just as the poles are the "top" and "bottom" of the earth. Bofa

question???
I hardly read poetry so can any one tell me what does this poem really means??
 * He is saying that he is in control of himself, and he isn't going to blame anyone else for his misfortunes. AdamBiswanger1R.I.P. Steve Irwin 13:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It could also mean simply that he will not allow himself to be beat.-Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 15:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * May I direct you to a really good article at CNN.com? It discusses Henleys motives to write this (among other things) CNN Archive

I know "consumption of the spine" (consumption being tuberculosis) was old slang for syphilis, so i wonder if that is what "tuberculosis of the leg" is really referring to, since it before antibiotics it was often passed down to children, hence why it affected him so young.

there needs to be a section in the article on interpretation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.173.78 (talk) 14:41, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

deleted reference to "master of my fate"
The previous version read "Through this poem, Henley gave the world the familiar phrases "my head is bloody, but unbowed" and 'I am the master of my fate'." I took out the reference to "I am the master of my fate," since it is too bold a claim to say that Henley "gave the world" this phrase. More likely the phrase comes from the first act of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, where Cassius tells Brutus that "Men at sometime, are Masters of their Fates". Henley may be referring to this, but he certainly did not coin the phrase. But in Henley's defense, I wouldn't doubt that Shakespeare cribbed this from a Latin playwright.

Full text of poem
Wikipedia is not meant for source text; that's what Wikisource is for. I've removed the full text from this article and left an easy to find Wikisource box. :) --Midnightdreary 22:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm surprised to see how quickly the full text reappeared. I'm assuming it's because an editor pored over WP:L&P and made a conscious, well thought-out judgment call based on it. --Midnightdreary 03:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Aha! I have just now replied to a very interesting query about this text (see s:User_talk:Jayvdb) and was just about to also recommend here that the text be removed, as full texts are rarely well maintained on Wikipedia, as opposed to Wikisource where we gradually move towards pagescans so there can be no further doubt or room for "improvement". John Vandenberg (chat) 04:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, the full text of the poem should be in here. That way, people can read the poem right here without having to open other links. However, this page is about the poem, not its text. Lukus 13:27, 15 May 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by LukusAreulius (talk • contribs)

Timothy McVeigh
Is it relevant that Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh used a quote from this poem as his 'last words' before his execution? Jonathantreichel (talk) 02:37, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I believe when Henley mentions he is the master of his fate he could be referring to suicide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.112.232.22 (talk) 15:27, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * To commit suicide would be to admit defeat, which defeats the whole purpose of this poem.


 * Definitely not. To overcome the fear of death is the greatest victory and nobody can understand the meaning of life before understandig the meaning of death. --89.204.155.227 (talk) 13:30, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Conquered
Anout the similar poem mentioned above "It is fitting that a virtually unknown poet of the early 20th century, Dorothea Day, should write the counterpoint to Henley’s poem. “Invictus” means “unconquerable”. Dorothea Day’s poem is called “Conquered.” 78.147.202.148 (talk) 12:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

It is my understanding that Day's poem is called "My Captain" I had hoped her poem would be mentioned in the article as the answer to "Invictus" instead of the one by the Mormon. But I will not steal your thunder, 78.147.202.148. I will let you edit the article. It probably would be best to mention both responses, rather than replace the reference to Whitney with Day's Hccrle (talk) 14:16, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Influence?
I the the "Influence" section of the article is pretty shallow. According to what is written, the poem's influence is limited to three movie references, a music tour, and one world leader. Probably the only really significant point there is Nelson Mandela. What I'm trying to say is, the poem has definitely had a larger influence than what is listed here, so it should be either greatly expanded, or be renamed something like "influence on popular culture".

Vice Admiral Stockdale once gave a speech about his time in Vietnam as a POW. One of his comrades, Dave Hatcher, snuck him a secret note after Stockdale had attempted suicide in order to avoid being used for propaganda. The note, which Stockdale read in the dark of his cell after years of confinement read:

It matters not how strait the gate, How charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul.

I think that is somewhat more significant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swimg43 (talk • contribs) 23:40, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

I think that the title 'Influences" makes it sound as if its going to concern its influence on other art and poetry, not a list of references. I think that it should be renamed something like "Influence on Popular Culture" or be reworked to show its influence. 99.96.229.4 (talk) 21:11, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Representation?
The Representation section of this article appears rather biased and is sourced from an article that does not support its thesis and also appears to be a rather bias source. I do not think it adds to the article and believe it should be removed or substantially rewritten. 24.113.149.139 (talk) 05:14, 30 September 2011 (UTC)heg24

Meaning Behind Invictus
The following text was placed in the "meaning behind Invictus" section, and rather strangely seems to be multiple versions of the same paragraph all stuck in there together so I've moved it here so it can be looked over and edited before adding it back to the main article. I apologise though, if I hve done this in error and it was as it was meant to be. The text in question:

''NEW ENTRY---By mentioning, "It matters not how strait the gate" the writer is referring to his struggles with, literally, walking (due to his tubercular arthritis and amputation of his left leg below the knee and mutated foot). Do not be confused by the current understanding of the definition of "gate," being a wall or fence. The author is referring to what we currently understand as the definition of "gait". The Etymology of the word "gait" comes from the Middle English word "gate," deriving from the Old English word "geat," all meaning a manner in which to walk, or a path.Gate This spelling was still commonly used in the 18th and 19th century especially in British literature though today we can understand the definition to be what we know as "gait". Considering Henley's medical conditions, it is clear the he intended this line to mean its literal translation, "it matters not how [difficult] the [manner of walking on foot]"

''PREVIOUS ENTRY---By mentioning "It matters not how strait the gate," the speaker makes a reference to John Bunyan's The Strait Gate or Great Difficulty of going to Heaven by accepting whatever judgment, or doom, death may bring. He is, in fact, his own god, guide and judge. He is the Captain. ''

''NEW ENTRY --- Although arguable, the previous entry would nullify Henley's lines in his first stanza "I thank whatever gods may be." He clearly does not ascribe to a religion so his referring to a Biblically inspired literature would be inconsistent. ''

''The analysis of this poem depicts Henley's life, and represents the moments of pain and struggle that created many obstacles for him. Although he did indeed face many challenges, in time, he realized he was the sole controller of his fate. By writing this poem, he conveyed a message with bravery and perseverance, which he applied to his own life as well. Through Invictus, Henley demonstrated the message of determination, courage and the will to survive.''

Thoughts?

Alan16 (talk) 22:43, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Alan16: I'm not a literature expert, but I'm dubious of your analysis. Henley was certainly aware of the culture that he lived in, and would have known that people in Victorian England would have recognized a reference to a "straight gate" (regardless of spelling) as a reference to Matthew 7:14. The fact that he references it in now way implies that he accepts it, and in context quite the opposite is implied. One Wheel (talk) 03:30, 26 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with One Wheel. The literal "gait," since he'd lost a leg, is a bit too prosaic. Perhaps the poet was influenced by it, but especially considering the next bit about the scroll having a lot of punishments on it, I think that he is talking about being judged, at the gate to heaven, or (eternal) life which is also I presume, the gate being referenced in Matthew. It seems to me he is saying, "Yes sure I may be damned, but I did it my way/ what I thought was best." Which is probably why Timothy McVeigh used it. --Timtak (talk) 01:19, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Meaning section
The entire meaning section contains no citations and appears to be one person's opinion and interpretation. I'm not disputing or supporting the interpretation, but I don't think it has any place here. 74.105.221.173 (talk) 14:10, 6 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I do dispute it. It’s subjective, unsourced nonsense.  — Chameleon 10:16, 19 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll second that; with all due respect to whomever wrote it, it's a bit shallow. I came to the talk page to recommend replacing that analysis with quotes from literary sources. For example, "In Best Remembered Poems, Martin Gardner writes, “The poem is a favorite of secular humanists who see themselves and the human race as unconquerable masters of  their fate in a mindless universe that cares not a fig for what happens to them.” (Mineola, N.Y.: Courier Dover Publications, 1992). " Graywriter (talk) 15:23, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion has been removed from article as OR
It should be noted that the line

"I thank whatever gods may be"

refers to a stanza of the poem "Hymn to Proserpine" or "The Garden of Proserpine" by Algernon Charles Swinburne, published in 1866.

The second last stanza reads:

From too much love of living, From hope and fear set free, We thank with brief thanksgiving Whatever gods may be That no man lives for ever; That dead men rise up never; That even the weariest river Winds somewhere safe to sea. Grover cleveland (talk) 06:02, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Date question
In the Importance section, shouldn't the date be 1875 rather than 1885? TheCanadian33 (talk) 19:33, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Star Trek Renegade
The Star Trek spin off series, "Renegade", includes a narration of Invictus in the opening sequence. It is made by Atomic Productions. It is available on YouTube, but I didn't know the correct way (if any) to reference it in the article.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE2Wgop9VLM FaceBook: https://www.facebook.com/AtomicProduction%20/ Web Page: http://renegades.show/home/

Should this usage be cited, or ignored? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Foxkid (talk • contribs) 16:52, 11 July 2018 (UTC) (Edited and signed my me, now that I know a should, and how) foxkid (talk) 20:13, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Posterity?
What is the difference between "Posterity" and "Historical uses"?--Jack Upland (talk) 05:17, 12 January 2020 (UTC)