Talk:Invisible Man/Archive 1

Moved comment from assessment comments
I do believe that the narrator literally received shock treatmentOgecirtnecc 05:29, 24 December 2006 (UTC) Ras the Liberator is a Metaphor for Marcus Garvey, Black NationalistOgecirtnecc 05:29, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

ISBN? Art and design?
What edition has the ISBN that is listed in the infobox? If the page count is listed from the second edition, shouldn't there be an ISBN from the second edition as well? Maybe with the edition of whatever ISBN is currently in the box listed in parentheses beside it, followed by the ISBN of the other edition. On the back of my "Second Vintage International Edition," the ISBN-13 is 978-0-679-73276-1 (while the ISBN-10 is 0-679-73276-4). On a different note, the back cover of the book lists "Art direction: Susan Mitchell" and "Design: Marc J. Cohen." On the publication information page, in small italics, "Book design by Cathryn S. Aison" is listed. I don't know how much of this information is warranted or wanted, but there it is. Monkeyfett 16:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

NPOV tag
I added it manly because of the "Historical context" section. The few statements that got me were:

"...Invisible Man revealed a new way of looking at racial tensions within America..."

...The novel left a lasting effect on society..."

And the one that got me the most, which was:

"Actually. Invisible Man should not be viewed as being a transition between the Black Arts Movement and the Harlem Renaissance. If anything, it owes more to the tradition of the great American novel."

re-writing large sections of articles is not really my forte, so I placed the tag in hopes that someone more experienced could come along and help. Tesfan 03:53, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

comment on "the Acually ... line"
I am the author of this line and I am really not sure why you feel that this is inaccurate. If you think that it is, then please explain why. I have since rewrote the whole historic section because neither the Black Arts movement nor the Harlem Renaissance has any place in this section to characterize a novel written by Ralph Ellison. If you don't believe me, then maybe you should consult Amiri Baraka. I am sure he will tell you that Ellison wasn't even read during the black arts movement, much less be considered part of the movement. Ellison has said on occasion disparaging words against the Harlem Renaissance. Saying that his novel was a transition between the two, is like putting the novel in a box that should not have been created in the first place. It is more accurate to place his novel in the tradition of the great American novel, like Huck Finn, Light in August, Moby Dick. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 14u2ponder (talk • contribs) 18:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I suggest you read Wikipedia's policy on no original research to help guide your editing and contributions. I'll put the text I redacted here so that it can be reintroduced into the main article space when it is properly sourced. Also please keep discussions about the article on the talk page (where it belongs). Pericles899 (talk) 07:39, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Primary result?
Speaking from an international viewpoint, is this really the best result for a search of "Invisible Man"? The result should, at the very least, report to a disambiguation page listing options, given that people (such as myself) came here searching for an article on the Wells story. The various possible responses on the subject as a whole would warrant more than a disambiguation link at the top.

Whilst this might be an important matter for race relations in the USA, international users of Wikipedia (given that the USA makes up a fairly small percentage of the world) are unlikely to be seeking this response, or indeed consider it notable enough to supercede the far better known Wells story. - Berym 01:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The H.G. Wells story is called "The Invisible Man" - different title, you see - and I don't see any evidence that it's better known than Ellison's, which is incredibly significant and influential. (I'm Australian btw.) Sills bend 07:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, this book is widely considered one of the most significant pieces of 20th century literature, and at least according to The Guardian (UK) it is one of the top 100 books of all time ([]). Finally, issues of race are also of significance for people outside of the U.S.A. dr. yesterday 23:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Still, disambiguition seems reasonable. Real readers aren't likely to think about whether the title begins with "The" or not. But I'm new here, so maybe I'm out of line with policies.AngelaVietto (talk) 16:53, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

TO Pericles899
What makes this information quote unquote original research. I just think that most people have only a passing knowledge of Ralph Ellison's work and never venture beyond the hollowed walls of Invisible Man. I am going to let this information stay here, because I am sick of arguing with people with limited knowledge of Ralph Ellison. Even if I was a good enough at citing people would still come along with their limited knowledge and opinions and say this is opinion.

I suggest you read more about Ralph Ellison before you call yourself authority enough to edit someone else's work. If you had read Arnold Rampersad's biography on Ralph Ellison, you'd know that I know what I am talking about when it comes to Kenneth Burke. It is common knowledge that Ellison borrowed from Burke at will, that they were friends and that Invisible Man and Juneteenth both benefited from Kenneth Burke thought. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.64.0.20 (talk) 05:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

toward burke
When you have to tell people that if they had read Rampersad's biography, they'd know this stuff, that's a pretty good indication that it's not common knowledge. But citing Rampersad would be a great idea.AngelaVietto (talk) 16:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

angelavietto
I knew about Kenneth Burke before Rampersad's biography. I just find it funny that Rampersad is immediately accepted as an authority on such matters, where I am called into question. The bottom line is that it would take far more laborious citing than I am willing to do to convince ill-informed readers about the stuff I know about Ellison. Rampersad's book is far more imperfect than perfect and so I wouldn't recommend it to anybody. If you want to know about Ellison all you have to do is read what Ellison read, he tells you everything in his essays.

Section edited out from main article:
"Though Ellison has a laundry list of influences, one person who is often not mentioned in the conversation about Ellison is Kenneth Burke. Kenneth Burke could rightly be called Ellison's muse.[Citation needed]Though any artist of Ellison's stature cannot really be limited as such, and it may be that I am overstating the influence a bit, Burke's work was a constant in Ellison's writing. [Personal conjecture] In fact, Ellison has stated that he used Kenneth Burke's terms Purpose, Passion to Perception to organize Invisible Man in a three-part division. Burke was called a speculative thinker and I think that that is right. His main concern was to connect art with life. Other of Ellison's influences include Melville, Faulkner, Dostoevsky, Twain, T. S. Eliot and to a greater or less extent, Du Bois and Washington. In fact, one way of looking at Invisible Man is to view it in terms of the debate between Washington and Du Bois concerning the idea of uplift.

Toward the "Citation needed," I must say that Kenneth Burke was a muse of Ralph Ellison; this, from deeply reading Ralph Ellison, which is only to say that I read many of the books that he mentions time and again in his essays. One of those books was called "Permanence and Change" by Kenneth Burke. In this book, Burke has a whole section devoted to something called "Perspective by Incongruity." He also mentions terms like "Trained Incapacity." After you familiarize yourself with these terms, go back and read all of Ellison's work and you will see that Burke could be called Ellison's muse. Not only because Ellison mentions terms like these so much in his work, but because Burke was no ordinary writer himself, but dealt with ideas in a very sophisticated way.

Here is one example of Ellison using Kenneth Burke. Excerpt from Juneteenth, notes section page 352:

The sermon of Hickman and Bliss which takes place on juneteenth must be related to later speeches made by the senator while in Washington....The rhythms of all of this should feed back one upon the other proving not only perspectives by incongruity, but ironies, and some measure of comedy.

I cannot help the fact that very few people know of Kenneth Burke or that so-called experts on Ellison never mention him as an influence. I only know that Burke WAS an important writer to Ralph Ellison. He was as important as Faulkner, Dostoevsky, Twain and the rest. In fact, there is a section in Burke's "A Grammar of Motives" called the Representative Antidote, which is nearly a blueprint of how Ellison approached a scene. All of this knowledge is there for the taking."

Jazz
This novel contains many references to jazz. Why are Wikipedia editors trying to obscure that fact? What do they have against jazz?
 * Most likely they are typical jazz-hating millennials. How is a man to enjoy the subtle and complex beauties of jazz when he spends his days carelessly and indiscriminatingly acquiring music by the bucket on filesharing services, hoarding and deleting willy-nilly? 65.190.95.8 (talk) 02:36, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

New Orleans
There is nothing in the novel that suggests that the college is in New Orleans. In fact, the protagonist obliquely mentions New Orleans later in the novel, which suggests he had never been there. Ellison himself did not visit New Orleans until after the novel was published. FortunaImperatrix (talk) 02:10, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Light Bulbs
I seem to recall that he had 1369 light bulbs —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.39.200.70 03:43, 7 November 2005 (talk • contribs)

This seems pointless, but 1,369 = 37^2. I suppose that his hole only has room for 37 bulbs to a side. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Waladil (talk • contribs) 00:45, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

For those of you who are unsure, he actually is shocked by an electric carpet after the "Battle Royale". The observers put metal coins on an electric rug and as the black "contenders" touch the coins, they are electrocuted. The Battle Royale scene is not a hallucination.

Invisible...?
Wait a second...so he's not really invisible? 208.107.3.50 (talk) 15:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

And--get this--the emperor really doesn't have any new clothes on. (This book is crap and is only held up as good literature by people with a racist agenda.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.41 (talk) 19:31, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

You have no idea what your talking about. This is about problems within a society not just african american society. It's one of the greatest literary works of the century. Even with out deep metaphor into the problems of any "civilized" society, the prose is really second only a very select few. To the top poster, the book your thinking of is The Invisible Man. One of the first science fiction stories (but by no means the first). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.5.29.31 (talk) 05:09, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Let me rephrase this: "The Invisible Man" (By H.G. Wells) Guy turns invisible. Literally. "Invisible Man" (By Ralph Ellison) Guy comments on the SOCIAL invisibility of African-Americans in U.S. culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Waladil (talk • contribs) 00:49, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

"Tod" in Spanish or German
Tod does not mean "death" in Spanish. That's muerte. Removing until further evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.151.130.93 (talk) 14:55, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Autobiographical?
I notice that the categories include "autobiographical novel"--but is this really the case? I thought that category was for books that novelize the author's life-story, but I didn't think that this was the case for Ellison's novel (or at least, not for most of it), and I don't see anything in the article to confirm that this book is based on his own life. Should the cat be changed? Aristophanes68 (talk) 19:40, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Original research in major themes section
This entire section is uncited, except for primary source material. The claim that "Tod" means death in Spanish was challenged, removed, then replaced with an accurate observation that "Tod" means death in German. This suggests that someone is working out his or her own interpretation. The claim that "Clifton" means "bridge between two cliffs" in Old Welsh is absurd -- it is simply a common worn-down version of "Cliff Town", no different from Elkton or a hundred other place names.

Much of what is said in this section sounds plausible, and I hestitate to remove it until someone with more familiarity than I has a chance to source it, so I have tagged. Robert A.West (Talk) 18:29, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I removed this section. It was very poorly written and the conclusions made aren't just incorrect, they are sometimes irrelevant, hypocritical and at odds with Ellison's own observations on the novel. I feel a section like this is important to the article, but right now I think removal is the best course of action.24.126.171.150 (talk) 03:17, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Historical background & Plot introduction
I think the two sections should be merged together under the heading Development history, as both are related the novels development. (James Holliday (talk) 01:46, 8 November 2013 (UTC))
 * Go right ahead! Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:50, 8 November 2013 (UTC)