Talk:Ion Hanford Perdicaris

"Personal intermediary"
Hi,, and first of all thank you for writing this interesting article. I am not convinced the description of the US acting as Perdicaris's "personal intermediary" is accurate. An intermediary, of course, is a third party acting as a go between, offering mediation. A mediator. I don't think it's accurate to call the US Perdicaris's "personal intermediary" in these instances: Let me know what you think about these points. And again, a really interesting, well researched article. Thanks for putting it together. Hopefully we can come to an agreement on some of these points that will be encyclopedically accurate and acceptable. Cheers, Eddie891 Talk Work 13:33, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) In the first instance, he freed a slave in Morocco with the help of the United States government and publicized the incident all over the United States 1. All the source says that the US government did is grant Perdicaris permission to purchase the slave and free him. There are no parties being mediated between here. Also, the source is just one article. What supports the second part of the sentence ("publicized the incident all over the United States"?)
 * 2) He indirectly overthrew two U.S. Consuls, Felix A. Mathews and William Reed Lewis due to his political aspirations and his problem with the Protégé system. Again, the US is the person doing the firing-- It is Perdicaris interacting with the US government. Not clear who the third party the government is an intermediary with is. I don't disagree that he influenced the removal of Mathews, but I think 'overthrow' implies a more forceful action than actually happened. And the source cited about Lewis's removal doesn't seem to mention Perdicaris at all. Additionally, neither of them describe Perdicaris as having "political aspirations". What supports that?
 * 3) The final major incident occurred when his close family friend and U.S. Consul Samuel Gummere surrounded the entire country of Morocco with the South Atlantic Squadron of the United States Navy. Perdicaris was the one kidnapped, but he wasn't using the US government here, Roosevelt was using him for political gain/ or acting to protect a citizen, depending who you ask. I think it's a misrepresentation to describe him as using the government as his personal intermediary here as well.


 * Thank you for taking the time to edit my work. Thank you for the constructive criticism. I will try to accommodate your requests and improve the article in the necessary areas.  I can reword certain points to remove the dubious template and generalize the information. Tzim78 (talk) 13:53, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * You Deleted: He wrote an essay called Unity of Beauty that was praised by the school's faculty, they said: “it contained a high order of genius”. We can change faculty to Mr. Wilson the moderator
 * You said: The essay really wasn't praised that much, it was discussed in a group of several, and that's a misquote of the source.
 * How is it a misquote, which group are you talking about?
 * I do not understand why you removed the part about the composition. It is clearly notated in the newspaper.  First off, I feel valuable information was deleted. The information helps historians establish points in the life of the individual.  Most of my articles feature clickable references to websites where everything written here can be validated.  The reason I added this piece of information is to assist historians and writers in establishing the biographical individuals background. He goes on to write more articles.  This helps historians establish his origin as a writer.  This is the principle behind wikipedia.  Here is the link the areas are highlighted in RED!  I mean we can remove faculty and change it to Mr James Wilson Esq., I believe he was the moderator.  He was the award moderator or judge of the writing contest.  It can say the judge of the contest Mr. James Wilson Esq.,  I believe Unity of Beauty was a composition he wrote and read aloud during the graduation ceremony.
 * https://www.demetrimusic.com/archive/perdicaris/89/89.pdf
 * Tzim78 (talk) 14:43, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Happy to explain a little further. In the article, you have “it contained a high order of genius” in quotes, implying that the article contains the exact phrase. That is not the correct quote of the article, it actually says "contained evidences of genius, of a high order". This makes it a misquote.
 * Also, in reading the source, it looks to me like the essay was titled "utility of beauty"? It's not the best scan, I can't quite make it out, but I definitely see "U_lity"
 * I also thought it was not quite accurate to say that the school's faculty individually singled out the essay for praise because: 1) It was only praised by James Wilson and 2) to me the phrasing in the article suggested that the essay was individually described as such, when in reality it was addressed as one of two articles. I'm concerned about including the quote about genius of a high order in the article because I don't think the praise was that significant when it was said by a local figure in a local paper. We can see, for instances, other places where that same article praises high school students more than they may have deserved (i.e. talking about distinguishing between "those who did well and those who excelled"). Basically, the article has no negative criticism, so its positive statements should be taken with a grain of salt. Wilson doesn't seem to have been particularly qualified to identify something as a work of the highest genius. If he was a prominent critic (such as, I don't know, Horace Traubel), I would feel more comfortable including his description.
 * I think more encyclopedic phrasing, which I would be OK with in the article would be "He wrote an essay titled Unity of Beauty that was presented at the school's commencement ceremony in July 1855." If you really wanted to add Wilson's description, you could say "At the commencement, James Wilson described Perdicaris's and another essay as "containing "evidences of genius, of a high order", but as I discuss above I don't think it's super encyclopedic. Eddie891 Talk Work 15:09, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * He returned to the United States as an international celebrity.[dubious – discuss]. This would fall under common knowledge he was involved in the Perdicaris Affair.  This would make him an international celebrity.  I can change the word celebrity to internationally known.  The term celebrity means famous he was discussed in an overwhelmingly large amount of newspapers and the incident also has its own wikipedia page.  This would make him an international celebrity.
 * Tzim78 (talk) 15:07, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I would be fine with "internationally known". I think celebrity contains broader implications of enduring fame/notoriety and we would need a source explicitly describing him as such. Eddie891 Talk Work 15:11, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Great! Tzim78 (talk) 15:13, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Let's change
 * This is the fourth instance where Perdicaris used the U.S. government as his personal intermediary.[dubious – discuss] In the first instance, he freed a slave in Morocco with the help of the United States government and publicized the incident all over the United States. He indirectly overthrew two U.S. Consuls, Felix A. Mathews and William Reed Lewis due to his political aspirations and his problem with the Protégé system. The final major incident occurred when his close family friend and U.S. Consul Samuel Gummere surrounded the entire country of Morocco with the South Atlantic Squadron of the United States Navy.
 * ==Change to==
 * This is the fourth instance where Perdicaris involves the U.S. government.
 * ===Point 1===
 * In the first instance, he freed a slave in Morocco with the aid of the U.S. Consul. The incident was publicized in Italy and Trenton, New Jersey.
 * ===Point 2===
 * He indirectly overthrew two U.S. Consuls, Felix A. Mathews and William Reed Lewis due to his political aspirations and his problem with the Protégé system.
 * The consuls were protecting the protege system. I discussed his obsession with the system and the battle he fought to abolish it earlier in the article.  This is what I deem political aspirations.***
 * Wealthy lenders used the protégé system to control and abuse the local population namely the Moors. Around this period he published a few essays and a book addressing the Treaty of Madrid. He wrote a pamphlet called American Claims in Morocco and a novel entitled The Case of Mohammed Benani. Around this time Ion was also interviewed by a reporter from the Pall Mall Gazette on May 30, 1887. The name of the interview wasThe European Vampire in Morocco. The interview also addressed the harsh treatment of the Moors and the protégé system.
 * In 1886, he was briefly arrested by order of the American Consul Felix A. Mathews because Ion brought a formal investigation against the public official. After a year Ion influenced the replacement of Mathews. On March 18, 1887, during the arrival of his replacement, William Reed Lewis, a celebration was held at the Perdicaris estate. The natives thanked Ion for assisting their release from prison. The event was again publicized by the American media. In 1890 Lewis was removed from office because he was using the office of consul to arrest local citizens for his own personal gain.
 * This information is in an previous section of the article.
 * ===Point 3===
 * The problem here is that Gummere was very close to the Perdicaris Family
 * The final major incident occurred when his close family friend and U.S. Consul Samuel Gummere surrounded the entire country of Morocco with the South Atlantic Squadron of the United States Navy.
 * =We change personal intermediary to U.S. involvement= Tzim78 (talk) 15:41, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * We can change
 * He indirectly overthrew two U.S. Consuls, Felix A. Mathews and William Reed Lewis due to his political aspirations and his problem with the Protégé system.
 * to
 * He indirectly overthrew two U.S. Consuls, Felix A. Mathews and William Reed Lewis because of his problem with the Protégé system.
 * Tzim78 (talk) 15:46, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I think those changes should largely resolve my concerns, @Tzim78. Thanks for being so amenable. Eddie891 Talk Work 14:04, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Wonderful! Thank You! Tzim78 (talk) 14:09, 27 September 2022 (UTC)