Talk:Iori Yagami/Archive 2

Talk page protected
You're edit warring over the talk page itself. This is getting absurd, so I'm invoking page protection and declaring a timeout. User:MegamanZero, User:TheOrgy, please be more civil and reasonable in the future. — Phil Welch Katefan's ridiculous poll 21:18, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I've unprotected this. We don't get to solve the problem by not talking. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 22:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Instead of a poll
Instead of a poll, which obviously in this kind of case only produces division, I'd like MegamanZero and TheOrgy each to write a 100-word defence of their favored versions.

Two rules:
 * You must not mention the other person or his version; concentrate on the good points of your own favored version.
 * You *must* stick to the 100 word limit. I won't tolerate long, unreadable tracts.  Write short sentences that emphasize the good points.

I'd like to see if we can get some agreement on what is good about each version. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 22:50, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't asked, but I'm the kind of person who will answer anyways, so here's what I think makes a good character page(abbreviated):
 * There are too many pictures, in a lot of articles, not just this one, 3 or 4 is enough, and none should be more than 300px on its longest side.
 * Titles should be more or less standard. Conservative titles like personality, background, story, etc. are perfectly adequate.
 * Background, peronality, and events section is too long, and should be broken into the 3 seperate categories.
 * All images need a subtitle indicating relevance or context, multiple person images serve no purpose without clear context
 * On a specific noteIorivsLeona.jpg is a bad image for this articles purpose, doesn't even show his face.

Also, note that I know absolutely nothing about KOF except that it is a fighting game.-- Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk 06:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I give up. It's simple. Thank you for the time that I had editing here. TheOrgy 07:01, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

One more thing, I have done Kyo, Benimaru and Goro's pages too with my style, which seems to crash with all sorts of ultimately irrelevant and perfectly tolerable tidbits that you claim to be unloyal to the wikipedia rules. Destroy everything that I did on those pages too. Change the sense that I wanted to give combining the different elements, and the descriptive story, or the format, I don't care anymore. TheOrgy 07:01, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

MegamanZero's 100-word defence
I believe the format which I have choosen is better suited for the article because of its clear thesis to stick to policy and established consensus. While perhaps over analytical (and perhaps a bit rude) I explained my reasons for the various images not needed in the article and that only a few were sufficent. If someone reproduces the opinion of TheOrgy, in a manner that suggests that this is a concensus rather than POV, I think it's appropriate to observe that, While TheOrgy is a lovely chap, his ventures into the area of policy haven't been very successful, and his observations are rarely accurate. For more detail, see my line-by-line response to one of Orgy's extended personal attacks on me, on my talk page. It was attempted to be removed, but its here, and I reproduce it all below:



KOF Suggestion
I have a suggestion, instead of nitpicking Mai & Leona (as you have been) might I suggest you take a peak at Iori and Kyo. I've given up trying to work on those (save the KOF XI pic of Kyo).-Dstorres


 * Those articles are overly stuffed with needless pictures and gb consumption as well.-MegamanZero 20:05 6,December 2005 (UTC)

You noticed that too did you? -Dstorres


 * Certainly. Especially the bathroom picture and "Iori's tears" pictures. Yeah, I'll open up a notice on thier respective talk pages concerning those new additons, and please feel free to join on the respective debate. Hopefully we can evecerate down on such Overzealousness. :)-MegamanZero 22:10 6,Decamber 2005 (UTC)}

I am the author of the pictures, and I demand that YOU stop interfering with my work. You DO NOT have any right to ERASE ANYTHING, you're free to discuss anything you want but, seeing as how you're a megaman fan (capcom game), it is pretty evident that you're not qualified to discuss about KOF stuff (which is SNK's).-The Ogry


 * You are not in a position to make any demands. It's obvious that you are PoV editing (again) according to your SNK non-concensus picture(s) PoV. We will make an offer to stop editing any articles when you prove your concensus and explain how any of these various pictures contribute anything meaningful to the article. I'll continue editing these articles because I am interested in them, and I suggest that you stop your harrasment and false comments about me being banned from editing them. Furthurmore, your thesis of statement of making the rididculous assumption I know nothing of SNK is pure, outright fallacy. Just because I love Megaman, by no means does that fact prove my ignorance. But in fact, the articles explanatory functons and thesis are fine as it is, the only problem is the fact you are uploading useless, disruptive pictures in the article.-MegamanZero 8:11 7,December 2005 (UTC)


 * Demanding, isn't he? I noticed he didn't mention that he had no problems erasing the images I originaly placed for Kyo & Iori.  Dstorres

It's easy to explain that: read the text. The pictures that you are reffering to are established in the Story part of the profile. They accompany the story narration that exists year per year with sync that not only describes vital parts of the story, but at the same time, they show different aspects of the personality of the character and their evolution throughout the years. Thus, they are perfectly needed and appropriate.-The Ogry


 * You falsely make it seem as if these pictures depict (or rather add any) informativeness to the article; Rather, it seesms, the pictures add "flashiness" to the page and little more. Lest you continue to be in any doubt about this serious failing of yours, I'll elaborate below:

Iori
- Honestly, these pictures do a faihful job of depicting the burning rivalry between Kyo and Iori, however, in terms of content, they're both fundamently the same thing. One should suffice for the article (personally, I like Image:Foreverrivalry.jpg).
 * Image:Kyoandiori.jpg and Image:Foreverrivalry.jpg

- This is where it gets surreal. That image simply depicts Iori crying or bleeding for some apparent reason; I can only speculate to the reason of its upload. Furthurmore, There's no mention of the pic's sembelence anywhere in the article.
 * Image:Tears.jpg

- Picture of Iori in a snazzy oufit- This is very hard to believe. Are you claiming that this contributes to the article..?
 * Image:Iori55.jpg

- This picture; I can understand its exsistance, but the fact that the previous Blood riot Iori pic did a much better job of depicting Iori's rage (and transformation), then you have even less grounds to claim this image is making a valid contribution.
 * Image:Iorisanger.jpg

- Descriptive pic, in that it decribes the idea of Iori and another finding out about their heritage, but the surrounding pharagraphs detail nothing about it. Why not use it in Leona's article instead..?
 * Image:IorivsLeona.jpg


 * Other: Finally, unlike what you said in your statement, almost all these images have no descriptions intitled on them- meaning they look more like a fancy gallery as a result. Also, the point of splitting up Iori's qoutes in to different subsections is uncalled for-they're not that relevant.

Kyo
Kyo's article is much less saturated- it depicts his different styles over the game series, which is admirable, as well as neat and labled with clear comments on the images. The only image that has no concensus for staying is the. Finally, this article also suffers from overkill in the quote area as well. And both articles could use a link for "related characters", allowing easy reference. -MegamanZero 18:48 7,December 2005 (UTC)

Finally, concerning the quotes section, I have only used a small amount to explain the thesis regarding an analysis of iori's personality. Note that, while I believe this version is more suitable, it is still quite far form 'superior' or 'perfect'. it needs more subsections in the history section, it needs proper source information, and it needs an overall case of wikification. Note that this thesis can also be said for various other SNK character articles as well. -MegamanZero 07:20, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

In this case, less is more and I like the new Kyo/Iori setup. On a side note it took me a bit to get use to your new layout for the characters. While I don't like the Neowave pics the layout now is very well done. Kudos. -Dstorres

MegamanZero's 100-word defence MK-II
I have reviewed my previous thesis, and I believe it was too forward in it's explanation, instead focusing on "downplaying" the new version. In response, I have created an v2 thesis that only concerns my explanatory reasons regarding the article:

I believe the format which I have choosen is better suited for the article because of its clear thesis to stick to policy and established consensus. Also, the fact that my version cuts down on GB and space consumption rectifies its reason for not putting a strain on the servers. Furthurmore, the pictures I included have clear comments labed on them, are thumbed and resized to allow the text to flow more freely, and have good reason for depiting their purpose in the article:


 * Wikipedia is not paper. --Maru (talk) Contribs 01:40, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 * But there isn't a reason to waste oveer 3,000,000,000 bytes for no apparent reason. -ZeroTalk 21:36, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

There you go again

 * Image:Iori885.jpg: This is the picture that is featured at the begginng of the article. It clearly depicts the character (ie. subject) and shows the reader what is being described [about].


 * Image:Foreverrivalry.jpg: this is the second image; inserted below the first. For those who don't know, its a picture of Iori and Kyo Kusanagi, who are rivals, and depicts the main conflict in the subjects life. It does an excellent job of showing this, and even the image's name verifies this fact.


 * Image:Ioriseyes2.jpg: image of Iori consumed in his trademark bluish flames. Despite this element of his power being described as his "trademark", its rarely shown in the games. So, I believe to establish the thesis of showing the reader this trademark element of the main character.


 * Image:BRIori.jpg: Very important contribution to the article. It depicts Iori in his transformed Orochi state and shows his constant war within himself over his cursed blood. Please also note that this version of Iori is a seperately playable character, so I believe a section should be made on it.


 * Image:Newgeniori.jpg; Final picture of Iori in the article. This depicts Iori in his current artistic redention as of the lastese KOF game: KOF: Neo Wave. I felt it was helpful to the reader to see an official artist's lasest version, as its common knowledge that the KOF installments feature different art styles every new illteration.


 * Etc.: There are only a few quotes from the respecive character inserted neatly into the the "quotes" section, respectively. Also note that these quotes help in describing a analysis of the charcter's personality. Finally, the version is far from perfect- it needs to be properly refernced form its sources, it needs sub-categories for furthur organizing, some of the history section is (argubly) POV, and the images should be moved to where they are referenced in the article. This article needs cleaning up ethier way, but I believe that my selected version is the one that should begin in the process. Also note I have constructed a prototype of the article's new format (located here). -MegamanZero 15:34, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * If you dont mind me commenting right here... I still think 5 images is too much, specifically since the first and last convey a similar image. The first image is also still overly large IMO.  I think it woul be best to eliminate one of them.  I've already made my stance regarding the section titles and layout, but thats something to be adressed later.  Also, I would still like to point out that there sould be no more than perhaps one or two quotes, that specifically personify character, and that they should be woven in more or less with the article text.  These are not statements for one version or the next, but advice to improve this one.


 * I should note that it also seems that TheOrgy has pretty much stated he wants nothing to do with the article anymore, which is unfortunate, but should be duly noted.-- Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk 17:16, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Iori885 foreverrivalry and Ioriseyes all are my contributions and I was the one that established Iori885 as the main pic for the beggining of the profile, it was at the bottom before, but take all the credit for my work, I don't care MegamanZero. TheOrgy 17:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Please stop being negative. I never made the assumption of taking credit for your uploads. Also, I have altered the template, and per oni's comment I have decided to only suggest we keep these images:

- MegamanZero |transerver 17:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Image:Newgeniori.jpg and
 * Image:BRIori.jpg


 * Please try and be Civil both of you. I dont think anyone is trying to take credit for anyone else's work.  As a matter of fact, the last thing Wikipedia should really be about is recognition.  If you do seriously think so however, you can easily point it out in a less accusing manor.  The last thing anyone wants is another fight over this.-- Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk 17:25, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * No hostility here. I just said I won't take credit... However, about the template and pictures I suggested we keep...-MegamanZero |transerver 17:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Sounds fine, I started writing my post pretty much at the same time you made yours. As for the template, It looks like a good layout, and if you can split that huge hunk of text into that accurately, more power to you.  as far as keeping the images, I think 3 or 4 is okay if you think they can be properly woven into the article and captioned.  But yeah, those 2 seem to be the ones you definitely want to keep regardless.-- Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk 17:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I rather like the infobox template- it makes the article look better, it allows easy access to a quick summary, and it takes the trivia out of the article itself whilst still retaining it for those who care; these are all things which it seems all the other KoF articles could use. May I suggest you package it up as and add it to all the other characters' articles? --Maru  (talk) Contribs 01:40, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Already on it. :) -MegamanZero|Talk 08:26, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

User:Cool Cat's outside view
Ok I'll comment and I'll be blunt.

Excessive number of quotes belong to wikiquote while one or two on aticle is fine.

Article is currently a "rant" of text very hard to follow, please introduce sections to break the personality section

Your arguments about the images sound reasonable however since I know nothinig about the topic I cannot tell. :P

-- Cool CatTalk 17:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * May I ask what our concensus is..? Shall we go with my template and selected version, or something else..? I'm open to any and all sugestions and ideas.-MegamanZero |transerver 18:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

My Personal advice, which I believe will agree with the consensus, is to take the format you created and use it, along with the previous discussion on this page to make an overall wikification of the artice. Since I dont know anything about KOF I cant really comment about the actual article content.


 * Okay. I'll start wikifying soon, after I finish these OMG articles for Cool Cat :) -MegamanZero |transerver 21:58, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Well I see you're all back to discussing the merits of the article, and not one another. That's good. Please continue, show good faith, and keep avoiding personal attacks. Now I'll ask you to try editing together to retain the best parts of the article while answering one another's objections. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)