Talk:Ira Einhorn/Archive 1

An Article
Better not to have an article than to have an inadequate mess. Ortolan88


 * Since I've started it, I think I should talk. I don't wanna start a flamewar here, but I just thought starting writing it should call the attention to people who would like to change and add info to it. By the way, what do you refer to when you say about inadequate mess? Just wanna learn so that I may write better next time.
 * Regards, Tcascardo

Okay, fair enough. The article reads as if he was a famous ecologist who somehow blundered into a murder trial and was convicted through no fault of his own. Since the woman's body was found hidden in a trunk in his apartment and he had quarreled with her is at least prima facie evidence of some serious involvement. It is not mentioned that he also recently lost an appeal and is in prison for life after having bargained his way out of the death penalty from abroad. Also, little notes like "I don't remember her name" and the perfunctory treatment of his flight from justice (which was quite interesting, as it seems he lived quite well and everyone around him knew he was on the lam) call for much more work (and the questions should be put on the talk page until answered). My comment meant that he was a fascinating story (what made him famous as a guru anyway?) that was not being told in a very fascinating way. Good luck on continuing to add to the article and to add to the Wikipedia. Ortolan88


 * Thanks for the tip. And just because it's a fascinating story that I got an interest on it. I tried to talk about the fact that he recently lost an appeal, but just didn't know the details, since I've just got an eye on it on the news very fast some time ago. And about his flight from the justice, it's a long story I couldn't remember from heart. Just wanna make this article better, and gonna do it if get the info at my hands. Thanks for the help. Hope I can make a good job everybody will enjoy.
 * Regards, Tcascardo

For some research resources, go to www.google.com and news.google.com and type in his name. The first searches regular web pages and the second searches news sources. You'll find lots of good background information. Also, I wonder if you really need a separate article on his victim. Shouldn't she be in the article with her killer? And, finally, when you do the Google searches, you'll see that he was present for his trial, was not tried in absentia. As you say, this is a fascinating story, and you are eager to try your hand at it, so go for it. Lots of good stuff on capital punishment, prominence in the 60s, his diaries in which he justifies killing, etc. This could be great. Ortolan88


 * Great! But just for your notice: I was not the one who wrote he was tried in absentia. That was the great Maveric, although I'd read this in another article too. Tcascardo


 * Einhorn claimed he was tried in absentia to convince French justice not to extradite him (French law does not allow for definite convictions in absentia; people convicted in absentia are entitled to a re-trial). David.Monniaux 15:31, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Trial: There were two trials: the first one was while Ira's was hiding in Europe; he was tried "in abstentia". When he was extradited back to the USA from France, he was present at his second, short trial where he was found guilty. I knew Ira quite well for at least 8 years before Holly's disappearance. I spent time with Holly and Ira in Montreal where I lived and in Virginia. He actually left for Europe with a woman he met in  Virginia but that is always left out of any stories. Holly was a wonderful woman and very artistic. Ira always had a weakness for woman in general and a disregard for other views of reality than his in particular. rogerv

He was definitely tried and convicted in absentia in Philadelphia in 1993. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.110.250.28 (talk) 02:16, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Extradition case
I've tried to explain the complications around Einhorn's extradition case. I'm not sure that the following was apparent enough: there were really two different issues at work A lot of the presentations of the case in the US had focused on 2) and apparently claimed that it had a significant influence on 1). This is, I think, a biased point of view. David.Monniaux 19:22, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Einhorn apparently had a team of very good attorneys maneuvering with France's rule of criminal procedure against handing final judgments in trials without the presence of the defendant.
 * He also tried to win points with the locals of the community in which he lived, as well as left-wing groups, claiming that he had been framed in a political trial. This was perhaps in order to get PM Jospin not to sign his extradition decree (extraditions must 1) be authorized by a court 2) be decided by the PM).

I have a question for anyone reading who might have sufficient legal knowledge to answer it. It's about the choice of words in this sentence: However, the French court ruled itself incompetent to estimate the constitutionality of foreign laws. Is the word "incompetent" in this sentence a legal term? Otherwise it might be construed as biased language. Maybe "unqualified" would be better? I don't want to change it if it has other connotations because of its legal usage. 147.154.235.53 12:18, 19 December 2005 (UTC)


 * It is French legalese. I added a footnote. David.Monniaux (talk) 09:18, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not so much "legalese" as French language, a "faux ami". The word "incompetent" in French means that no foreign (well, in this case French) court is "competent", i.e., has jurisdiction, to rule on a point of foreign constitutional law. It is true that courts in Civil Law countries can ask for experts in a national legal institute (thus: Swiss Institute of Comparative Law; German Max-Planck Institut für ausländisches öffentliches Recht und Völkerrecht) to give an opinion. But there is a risk that the opinion may be wrong, and the court doesn't have to do it. And in matters of constitutional law that's the better practice. (Compare: a federal district court ruling on a matter of state law only to have the supreme court of that state rule the opposite in a later case. Under the law of many states a federal district court can ask an opinion of that state's supreme court but sometimes they can't or don't bother.) Andygx (talk) 17:55, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Arlen Specter
One detail of the original charges I recall reading was that former D.A. (and now US Senator)Arlen Specter represented Einhorn and was instrumental in getting Einhorn a riddicoulously low bond, which allowed him to flee overseas - - - information on this subject would be interesting, I think. --68.103.109.8 11:38, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

This "editorial comment" removed from main page and moved here Sept 25, 2005 --

--

"Ira Einhorn has a new book out (2005) "Prelude to Intimacy" written in 1997 in France, which seems to be a strong brief that he was framed and is innocent. The reference to his 'body odor" in much of the pop media is clear anti-Semitism IMHO. It is factually not true as I know from first-hand experience."


 * If your "first-hand experience" is so valuable, and apparently completely exonerates Einhorn, why didn't you sign your comment? 147.154.235.53 12:14, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

--> Comment removed (see note below) --Keereann (talk) 00:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Extradition
For some reason, despite it being discussed on the comment page, no mention appeared of the "trial in abstentia issue", making in my opinion part of the "extradition" section meaningless, since the article noted the american reaction to a french court decision that wasn't even mentionned previously, let alone explained. I added it. No being a native english speaker, the addition might be poorly written and corrections are welcome.

Trials in absentia are not unknown in Europe, but there is a right to re-trial in person in most cases, bearing in mind exceptions where the defendant refuses to attend, is excluded for misbehavior, or absconds during trial.

"In some respects, the debate took on a political character, with discussion going beyond the particular case of Einhorn and widening into criticism of American justice and its perceived unfairness for some categories of defendants;[who?] there were also concerns that the case against Einhorn was politically motivated. Because of the sensitive nature of the case, Jospin took some time to reach a decision, but eventually issued an extradition decree. Jospin was then criticized by some[who?] as having caved in to political pressure from U.S. President Bill Clinton."

Reading today various French newspaper commentaries, it seems to me that aside from Einhorn's lawyers, who did make the criticims preceding the "who?" queries above, the general French concern was over "la force exécutoire" (the legal force in France) of a US law or court judgment and the "garantie d'un procès équitable" (assurance of a fair trial) which is always bound to arise in extradition cases but rarely gains traction. The Green Party criticized the "haste" with which the extradition was ordered, but not necessarily the substance: ("Nul ne sait si Ira Einhorn est coupable ou innocent des accusations qui pèsent sur lui ... le temps d’obtenir les garanties demandées, ne présentait aucun danger pour quiconque." [Nobody knows if Ira Einhorn is guilty or innocent of the accusations weighing on him ... the time to obtain the guarantees demanded do not present any danger to anybody]. http://lesverts.fr/article.php3?id_article=224) Andygx (talk) 18:26, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Articles' existence
I find that the page doesn't seem to exist if I try to access it through the usual methods - Google has a cached version that has some details, but this isn't the one that is currently in place. Why is this - has it been deleted? Autarch 12:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion board edit
I just removed a rather spurious comment from above (unsigned, suggested that the CIA should have assassinated Einhorn while he was a fugitive). IMHO, the discussion board is for improving the article and suggesting edits, not espousing your personal view of how history "should have" happened. --Keereann (talk) 00:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Eringer
I don't think we can rely on someone who says he was framed by the CIA for a murder (like he meant anything to anyone) to say that he was chased down by an extremely famous CIA agent who may or may not be real. I think the sentence that says he was chased by Eringer should be either removed or changed to indicate that it is simply his claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Titan124 (talk • contribs) 15:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

He meant quite a lot, and to some very important people--he WAS very important people. We are talking about men with government contracts and contacts at the highest levels of the American administration. Einhorn and his colleagues were outdoing some of CIA's own projects, as well as drawing too much attention to a field of study CIA wanted very much to keep out of public view (pun intended). Ira was (is?) a very, very big fish in a big sea. Many of his fellow scientists believe he was framed for Holly's murder, and Holly was actively dating multiple powerful (or at least well-funded) men; there are other suspects to consider. It's hard to imagine the person who was brilliant enough to conceive of computer conferencing in the early '70s being dumb enough to keep a body in his own closet. And it's pretty easy to imagine CIA killing someone and using the remains to frame a person who posed a great threat to them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.183.90.13 (talk) 01:30, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Titan124. The References link to Paranoia magazine leads to an article about Eringer, whose talk veers freely between the improbable and the intentionally laughable, with only minimal content about his alleged key role in bringing Einhorn to justice.Markdf10825 (talk) 14:30, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia entries should not be evaluated based on personal belief, but rather what we can find reliable evidence to support. I personally have grown tired of "TruTV" being listed as a major source for all the most interesting articles on Wikipedia. Their organization is very sensationalist and makes tons of bizarre claims about people having been "Satan worshippers", "child molesters" and "paranoid schizophrenics" without anything but hear-say to back it up. True TV (or TruTV) seems equivalent in my mind to supermarket tabloids that use altered pictures and outright slander to market themselves. Please use "True TV" sparingly, if at all... 98.211.129.152 (talk) 02:37, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Movie
Hasn't anyone seen the movie about the whole case? Can someone include a mention? The link to the movie: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0189593/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.252.168 (talk) 01:57, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Earth Day 1970
I don't know what the organizers are telling people these days, but I was there, and Einhorn was certainly on stage and definately *acting* like an MC. -MaggieL- —Preceding unsigned comment added by MaggieL (talk • contribs) 21:49, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Einhorn did not start Earth Day in Philadelphia, and not as a day in the United States or worldwide. He and his supporters can claim all they want that he started Earth day in Philadelphia but it is not true or factual at all. Pretty much everyone who was around in the 60s and 70s attending the universities of Penn, Drexel, LaSalle, Temple, etc. knew how crazy Einhorn was then and still is108.16.0.94 (talk) 07:35, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism - "Ryan Dell"
Just a quick note to say that I've tried to undo the vandalism (seems like a bit of a strong word; childish prank might be more appropriate) that was done by [72.210.67.228] (namely replacing Ira Einhorn's name with "Ryan Dell" and a blurb about "Ryan Dell is a young idiotic kid that lives in Southwest Florida..."). Anyhoo, 'tis fixed back to how the article was before this happened. --Emperor Wu (talk) 23:39, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Reverts, May 2012
I've reverted highly contentious changes repeatedly made by IP editors. The changes in question add editorializing and unacceptable POV language to the lead and remove cited content that is apparently neutral. These changes also add an external link to the lead, which is inappropriate. If an IP editor would like to make changes to this living person's biography, please consider registering an account and/or engaging in discussion to establish editorial consensus. Further changes without consensus and against BLP policy may result in page protection. Cheers! JFHJr (㊟) 16:20, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Editor has just moved onto another IP. I've made a request for semi-protection. This editor has been at it making these edits to this page since July 2011. They seem persistent. Page may need longer semi-protection. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 13:28, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Corrections, May 2012
Corrected the facts regarding Einhorn's involvement with Earth Day. Previous edits quoted the MSNBC piece four times but barely mentioned the sworn statement and the sworn testimony in court. Agree that the page needs long term protection to avoid being reverted to inaccurate information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TruthTime8752 (talk • contribs) 08:04, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Sworn testimony in court about a third party has no place in a WP:BLP. See WP:BLPPRIMARY. The page might need protection from single purpose accounts that don't know Wiki policy. JFHJr (㊟) 23:29, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I've also reverted undue weight to the Earth Day "controversy" section. JFHJr (㊟) 00:19, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with JFHJr's comments and edits.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:11, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

His Jewish orgin
According to http://www.crimeandinvestigation.co.uk/crime-files/ira-einhorn-the-unicorn Einhorn was born into a Jewish family. But for some reason any mention of this seem to be removed instantly. Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.224.18.89 (talk) 06:43, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Book containing details on Einhorn in France
I was paid to clean up the author's (Robert Eringer) article, so I don't want to edit this article directly. I thought this might be some interesting history to include.009o9 (talk) 19:44, 23 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I've declined the edit in its current form. As an autobiography the source used for all this is not an independent reliable source (key word here being independent) for a factual description of the interactions between Einhorn and Eringer. Brustopher (talk) 11:34, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for answering . I was just reading about primary sources the other day, it does agree with you; however, the notability of Einhorn is already established, the passage above is merely ancillary. Alternatively, is any objection to mentioning the book article Ruse: Undercover with FBI Counterintelligence in the See Also section?  There is also some WP:RS, -- Paid Editor -- User:009o9Talk 17:15, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Hmm... I wouldn't object to a shorter paragraph that puts these claims in Eringer's voice instead of Wikipedia's. I'm just concerned about taking claims from a memoir at face value if they're not independently verified or evaluated in secondary sources. Also I think the size of the proposed paragraph above is too big, given the lack of general coverage in secondary sources regarding Eringer's role in Einhorn's extradition. Brustopher (talk) 23:44, 27 November 2015 (UTC)


 * , here is a version with the colour removed. I wouldn't know how to put it in Eringer's voice, the topic spans a lot of pages.Google Books -- Paid Editor -- User:009o9Talk 00:51, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

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Which Barbara Bronfman?
I have also read that it was Barbara Bronfman, first wife of Charles Bronfman, who supported Einhorn, not Charles's sister, Barbara Phyllis Bronfman Lambert. Does anyone know for sure? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Indigo milk cap (talk • contribs) 02:03, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Time article from 2001 seems to confirm that it was Barbara Bronfman, wife of Charles, who supported Einhorn. Liamwithannals (talk) 18:49, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Attempted suicide needs coverage
Not every suicide attempt warrants mention in a notable's write-up. (as many are clearly half-hearted and probably only designed to get notice rather than actually do the deed) but Einhorn's certainly does.

I believe it was after his in-person conviction but just hours before authorities trundled him off to prison finally that he some managed seriously slit his neck, ergo the flowing white bandage enveloping his neck in all those photos. And I gather it wasn't just another publicity grab by Einhorn, but rather a serious slash that might indeed have worked.

Oh, and given how widely despicable a character (as opposed to merely a galpal murderer) the late Einhorn clearly was--though obviously somehow also quite charming, as evidenced by how he was able to con wealthy and attractive women to fund him for years--plus the fact that I've long been a collector of gallows humor, I have to say the FBI agent's marshmallow gag was not merely witty, but also deserved. [signed] FLORIDA BRYAN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:588:C504:6400:9495:26E7:5880:E2CD (talk) 12:41, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Inmate location
As the subject of this article is now deceased, I removed mention of his being moved from one correctional institution to another, since it's no longer relevant. Matuko (talk) 19:55, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Something is not right; there has to be more to this story
"Einhorn's initial alibi came into question when his neighbors began complaining about a foul smell coming from his apartment, which in turn aroused the suspicion of authorities. Eighteen months later, on March 28, 1979, Maddux's decomposing corpse was found by police in a trunk stored in Einhorn's closet."

Based on Einhorn's own testimony, the last place Maddux is seen is leaving his apartment, and she never returns. We assume Einhorn doesn't report her failure to return to the Police. There is a complaint of a "foul smell". EIGHTEEN MONTHS LATER, "suddenly" her body is found in his apartment. I've watched enough 48 hours to know that no detective in the world is going to wait 18 months to get that search warrant, not even in 1979. Did she not have family? She graduated from Bryn Mawr, which indicates socio-economic status. Your daughter is missing. The last place she is seen is at this man's apartment. Ex-boyfriends are always the prime suspect in a homicide like this. Neighbors complain about the smell. It takes 18 months to get a search warrant. He has 18 months to get rid of the body, but does not. I call bullshit. What's missing from this story? Right now it looks like someone wanted the family to believe she could still alive for 18 months. Who is/was her family? How were they/are they politically connected? Who benefited from this 18 month period where competent law enforcement pretends to be incompetent?68.206.248.178 (talk) 16:02, 22 April 2021 (UTC)