Talk:Iranians in China

Untitled
I agree with the guy below, wtf is this crap? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.46.224 (talk) 14:40, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

This article could be very informative, because there were many Iranian people living in china throughout history, like the sogdians, the current tajiks of china, the sassanian family which fled to china after the arab conquests and ...

Instead, this article is mostly about Iranian women in china. Not only I disapprove the way it is written (which objectifies Iranian and specially Persian women) I also do not like the, let's say graphic contents. Is this article somebody's fantasy or something? To see what I mean, let's read this article and try to develop this page based on the same standards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_people_in_Iran حضرت محمود (talk) 07:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Article has this string of words:
 * 'There is a famous Tencent qq for Iranians in china Group name also is "Iranians in china" Group id is 237329365 Welcome all iraninas' (ending without a period). Some who knows what this is about is asked to make clear sentences of of that string of words.  (PeacePeace (talk) 20:33, 23 June 2016 (UTC))

Tang Dynasty
The city has remained a leading economic and cultural center and major port of foreign trade and external exchange since the Tang dynasty (618–907). Many Arab and Persian merchants lived in the city in the 7th century, but they were massacred in the thousands in 760 during the An Lushan Rebellion by Tian Shengong's rebel insurgents during the Yangzhou massacre (760).

During the Tang dynasty, many merchants from Silla also lived in Yangzhou.

The city, still known as Guangling, was briefly made the capital of Wu during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period.

new source

 * http://www.worldlibrary.org/articles/eng/iranians_in_china — Preceding unsigned comment added by Callofworld (talk • contribs) 09:41, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Note that this is a known mirror of the article here and not acceptable as a source. Kuru   (talk)  12:34, 23 February 2017 (UTC)


 * https://iranian.com/History/2000/August/China/

This document is a contribution of blocked users and has long violated regulations.
Related to : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Interracial_marriage/Archive_3#This_document_contains_false_information_about_Chinese_marriage.

This document is a contribution of blocked users and has long violated regulations.

(1) Blocked and single-purpose account

Most of the content in this document is the contribution of blocked account 'Hicklitwak'. []

Two users also made significant contributions to this document. but They are maybe single-purpose accounts.

Their contribution should be discussed again after deletion

(2) 'Cherrypicking' and 'Neutral point of view'

For example [] , The book says that many Muslim men have married a Chinese woman. The book generally mentions marriages between foreign immigrants and Chinese women.

The opposite case is only a one-time reference. The blocked user, however, covered up data on foreign men and exaggerated data on foreign women. Even the document does not mention numerous foreign men, but only foreign women and foreign slave.

It's a clear violation of regulations.

Only a small number of cases were referred to in excessive space allocation.

(4)'Faithless source' and 'false representation

This document is full of false information and source.

For example ,

/////A Sogdian merchant, Kang Weiyi had Indian, Central Asian, and Bactrians among the 15 slave girls he was bringing to sell in the Chinese capital of Chang'an. Khotan and Kucha both sold women for sexual services. /////

This source is not academic but false data. Even false source do not give such testimony.

Even the stage of that cases is the Silk Road area, not China.......

Academic source say only: 'The few documented pairings of Chinese male owners with young Sogdian girls raise the question how often Sogdian and Chinese families intermarried. The historical record is largely silent on this topic, but Rong Xinjiang has found throughout Tang-dynasty China a total of twenty-one recorded marriages in the seventh century in which one partner was Sogdian, and in eighteen cases, the spouse is also Sogdian. The only exceptions are very high-ranking Sogdian officials who married Chinese wives. 67 He concludes that most Sogdian men took Sogdian wives, and we may surmise that the pairings between Chinese men and Sogdian women were usually between a Chinese male master and a Sogdian female slave.' http://history.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/hansen-silk-road-trade.pdf This sentence is the only academic material.Other source are unreliable.The academic evidence is unclear. Also Sogdian men also married Chinese women. There is only anecdotal evidence. Blocked users distorted the source.

Conclusion


 * Minor cases for foreign women must be deleted from this document. But it's all a minority case.
 * Overall, the document needs to be initialized.
 * If we have to mention international marriages for foreigners, We must references to the numerous Persian men married to Chinese women.Bablos939 (talk) 12:47, 18 October 2020 (UTC)


 * This page is about Iranians ( Persians and Sogdian ) presense in China not about marriage.
 * Many of the edits inside that page has nothing to do with the blocked user also a blocked user and it doesn't mean he was providing wrong information. There are even respected editors with reward an badges that were later blocked.
 * Indeed muslim men have married Chinese women but Chinese men also married muslim women and is already mentioned that muslim men marry Chinese women but like I said this page has nothing to do with marriage.
 * This wikipedia page did not claimed that Chinese men and Iranian women marriage was massive but it certainly existed and would be far more than just a few based on documented pairings.
 * Academic source did not say documented pairings represent undocumented pairing. Undocumented pairing would have been far more common.


 * The Wiley Blackwell Companion to Zoroastrianism
 * Michael Stausberg, Yuhan Sohrab-Dinshaw Vevaina
 * https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YT-kBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA150
 * Quote
 * Before the An Lushan rebellion (756-763). Sogdian-Chinese intermarriages were were rare (Rong 2001: 132-135). After the rebellion, however, Sogdian-Chinese marriages became more and more common and Sogdians gradually lost their ethnic identities and became Sinicized (Chen 2001: 195-20 )


 * In Tang poetry Sogdian girls also frequently appear as serving maids in the taverns and inns of the capital Chang'an.


 * "but Han men marrying Hui women could also become Hui"


 * Investment and Employment Opportunities in China
 * By Jeffrey Yi-Lin Forrest, Tao Lixin

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4m1YBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA67
 * Quote
 * Over time, the demographics of Guangdong slowly shifted with more Han Chinese and some Persian women massively migrating into the regions from the north during periods of political turmoil and nomadic incursions.


 * Memoirs of the Research Department
 * Quote
 * At the foreign quarter, there lited of course many foreign women , and they were called by the Chinese Po - ssu - fu.


 * Rong, Xinjiang, "New light on Sogdian Colonies along the Silk Road
 * In Tang poetry Sogdian girls also frequently appear as serving maids in the taverns and inns of the capital Chang'an.


 * The Silk Road Encyclopedia
 * https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=UgOwDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT763
 * "Persian women who worked at publich houses in Chang'an during the Tang dynasty. A large number of Persian women were hired to entertain guests...... these women were as Huji.....Huji appear a suprising number of times in the work of Li Bai and other poets from Tang dynasty"


 * Walter Joseph Fischel (1951). Semitic and Oriental studies: a volume presented to William Popper, professor of Semitic languages, emeritus, on the occasion of his seventy-fifth birthday, October 29, 1949. Volume 11 of University of California publications in Semitic philology. University of California Press. p. 407. Retrieved January 4, 2012.
 * Quote
 * "At least from the tenth to the twelfth century, Persian women were to be found in Canton, in the former period observed in the harem of Liu Chang of Southern Han,” and in the latter seen as typically wearing great numbers of earrings and cursed with quarrelsome dispositions ..."


 * Persians women, Turkic women, Korean women were captured by Chinese and sold as slaves for hot commity


 * Daily Life in Traditional China: The Tang Dynasty
 * By Charles D. Benn
 * https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=emPuDu97qbkC&pg=PA39
 * Quote
 * Persians captured by the Chinese pirates in the southeast; and Korean women, whose beauty made them a hot commodity in the housholds of the well-to-do.


 * Les sogdiens en Chine
 * Quote
 * " The only exceptions are very high-ranking Sogdian officials who married Chinese wives.and we may surmise that the pairings between Chinese men and Sogdian women "
 * Quote
 * "Sogdian slave girls and their Chinese male owners made up the majority of Sogdian female-Chinese male pairings"
 * and by the way many Sogdians were muslims
 * Source: Bukhara, the Eastern Dome of Islam: Urban Development, Urban Space ... https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sVgtKQdJrTMC&pg=PA18
 * "Soon after this many of the Sogdians, who had converted in masses to Islam, supported the Abbasid "revolution- " ( from 7th century )


 * Vamlos (talk) 17:13, 18 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Your argument always falls under this. WP:RS WP:NEUTRAL WP:CHERRYPICKING

The only reliable academic material is stories about foreign men and Chinese women.

(B)China

Most of the international marriages of Chinese people take place between Chinese women and foreign men (B)-1 Tang Dynasty

Muslim arrivals in China during the Tang and Song Dynasties were from all accounts male. It is hard to find evidence of females coming with them.// many of them had married Chinese women. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false

(B)-2 Song Dynasty

During the Song Dynasty, many Chinese women (some of noble origin) married foreign merchants. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false

(B)-3 Yuan Dynasty The great majority of Muslims who came to the East during the Yuan Dynasty were male ,only a few from the upper-class stratum brought their familiy members with them. so it was quite common for a Muslim to marry a Chinese wife. https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false

(B)-4 Ming Dynasty

'Most incomer were Han women who married Hui men.'

https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=jV9_YvgUmpsC&pg=PA74&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q=a%20many%20them%20had%20married%20chinese&f=false https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=BwuSpFiOFfYC&pg=PA31&redir_esc=y&hl=ko#v=onepage&q&f=false

'Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did to Armenia. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been or will be reverted.' 'Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to add unsourced or poorly sourced content, as you did at Sexual violence in South Africa, you may be blocked from editing.'

You should listen to other people's advice.Bablos939 (talk) 14:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)


 * What does Armenia or Sexual violence have to do with this page ?  Please keep the discussion with Iranians in China.


 * Again this page is not about marriages. The page does not talk about marriages. This is clearly just Maria Jaschok subjective opinion since many records show Iranian women ( Sogdian, Persian muslim ) had migrated to China. Where is the records that suggest that the great majority of muslims were male ? It would have been historically recorded by people of those time not Maria Jaschok interpretation. She said all accounts were males in Tang dynasty and Song dynasty. What a subjective mistake. If Maria Jaschok, the author of that book says there's rarely any account of female coming to China than why is there so many account? Please name these historical Iranian males ( Persian or Sogdian male accounts ) accounts of Iranians in China. Some famous names especially.  There are many accounts of Persian women as dancers, wearing jewellery, accounts of Sogdian female sex trader, more importantly are the accounts of them being married to Chinese emperors, Chinese princes, Chinese nobles ect.  Many Chinese women (some noble origin? ) married foreign merchants. And what are the names of these noble Chinese women ?  You can name plenty of famous Chinese men who did.


 * Fake claims that Hui Chinese are descendants of Muslim ancestors, because all of them claim to be descent from Muslim ancestors when the majority are Han Chinese converts by DNA. That is why there are many books you cannot trust, some books are entirely based on the authors exaggerated claims and interpretation. More realiable would be records from the time of Tang dynasty and Song dynasty
 * Apart from other fake claims like no records of foreign women migrating to China. Where are the Muslim descendants in Yangzhou, Guangzhou, Fujian from the Song and Tang dynasty ? I though she said many married Chinese women ? Why are their descendants non-existant in those areas because the numbers can't be proven and are exaggerated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_people   The Hui Chinese are the only real evidence of muslim ( some in physically and genetically), so the book source from Maria for Yuan-Ming is only partially correct but still the majority have nothing to do with Muslim marriage but Han converts.


 * There's plenty of wikipedia pages that mentions Muslim men marry Chinese women and nobody is denying that. The problem is the proportion of numbers with subjective opinions estimates. But using Hui Chinese, based on genetic evidence. Nearly 7% Caucasian maternal ancestry ( 7 in 100 ) is obviously not few but significant.  Saying only few is obviously a subjective opinion that can't be proven when you combine the history of different sources together. Historical intermarriages is extremely difficult to estimate. Some book source even says many Europeans, Chinese, Koreans, Middle East are descendants of Mongolian from the Mongol invasions but nothing more but subjective opinions.


 * PLENTY BOOK SOURCES THAT CLAIM HUI CHINESE ARE ALL DESCENDANTS OF FOREIGN MUSLIMS.


 * Obviously most were Han women married Hui men but something here must be said. Is that most Hui Chinese are Han descendants. Of course some Hui Chinese also have muslim Persian ancestry but vast majority do not have central/west Asian foreign ancestry.


 * GENETIC EVIDENCE SHOWS HUI CHINESE HAVE ANCESTRY OF MUSLIM FROM BOTH FOREIGN FEMALE AND MALE


 * 7 out of 100 Hui Chinese can have Caucasian maternal ancestry


 * Source.. Different Matrilineal Contributions to Genetic Structure of Ethnic Groups in the Silk Road Region in China
 * https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/21/12/2265/1071048
 * Quote
 * "western Eurasian-specific haplogroup frequency was observed, with the highest frequency present in Uygur (42.6%) and Uzbek (41.4%) samples, followed by Kazak (30.2%), Mongolian (14.3%), and Hui (6.7%)."


 * 30 out of 100 Hui Chinese can have Caucasian paternal ancestry (29.6%)


 * The massive assimilation of indigenous East Asian populations in the origin of Muslim Hui people inferred from paternal Y chromosome
 * https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.23823
 * Quote
 * "Co‐analyzed with published worldwide populations, our results suggest the origin of Hui people has involved massive assimilation of indigenous East Asians with about 70% in total of the paternal ancestry could be traced back to East Asia and the left 30% to various regions in West Eurasia."
 * Quote
 * "According to historical records, ethnic Hui in China obtained substantial genetic components from western Eurasian populations during their Islamization. However, some scholars believed that the ancestry of Hui people were native Chinese populations.


 * There are books sources that claim Hui Chinese are all descendants of mixture of Chinese and Central/West Asian but clearly the majority are not mixed, but are just converted native Chinese people which disrproves exaggerated claims.


 * Hui Chinese 70% Paternally East Asian and 93% Maternally East Asian. Proving thatthe Hui Chinese being mostly Muslim descent was completely wrong.Vamlos (talk) 16:09, 19 October 2020 (UTC)