Talk:Iraqi santur

Citations and sources are needed
Please be sure that all additions to the Iraqi Santur are verifiable. Any new items added to the article should have inline citations for each claim made. As a courtesy to editors who may have added such claims previously, before Wikipedia citation policy is what it is today, a few of the existing unsourced claims have been tagged citation needed to allow some time for sources to be added. N2e (talk) 14:26, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Pythagoras
I removed the following phrase:
 * which, itself, is the result of musical experiments by Phythagorus based on the 6,000-year-old bull-headed lyre discovered from excavations found in the ancient city of Ur (Lyres of Ur).  Pythagoras ?
 * discovered from excavations? by Pythagoras? then cannot be 6000 yr old
 * 6000yr old: Lyres of Ur says over 4,500.
 * "Childrens' Book" is hardly a reliable source for such things.

Removing very controversial uncited passage
Interesting though it may be, this passage would need really solid sourcing:

''The santur became especially popular in Iran after Khomeini banned all types of music other than classical Iranian music, which resulted in the revival of the otherwise semi forgotten instrument in Iran. Persians believe it to be a Persian instrument because Persia was occupying and ruled their neighbour semites (Babylonians, Phoenicians and Arabs) by force and all semitic achievements and inventions, instead of being credited to their real owners, are thought to be Persian by Iranians without any archeological evidence by world experts to back up such claims.''

MatthewVanitas (talk) 13:19, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Removing list of notable players as not finding any that are bluelinks

 * Abdallah Ali (1929–1998)
 * Akram Al Iraqi
 * Amir ElSaffar
 * Azhar Kubba
 * Bahir Hashem Al Rajab
 * Basil al-Jarrah
 * Ghazi Mahsub al-Azzawi
 * Hugi Salih Rahmain Pataw (1848–1933)
 * Hashim Al Rajab
 * Hala Bassam
 * Hammudi Ali al-Wardi
 * Haj Hashim Muhammad Rajab al-Ubaydi (1921–2003)
 * Hendrin Hikmat (1974-)
 * Heskel Shmuli Ezra (1804–1894)
 * Mohamed Abbas
 * Muhammad Salih al-Santurchi (18th century)
 * Muhammad Zaki Darwish al-Samarra'i (1955-)
 * Mustafa Abd al-Qadir Tawfiq
 * Qasim Muhammad Abd (1969-)
 * Rahmatallah Safa'i
 * Sa'ad Abd al-Latif al-Ubaydi
 * Sabah Hashim
 * Saif Walid al-Ubaydi
 * Salman Enwiya
 * Salman Sha'ul Dawud Bassun (1900–1950)
 * Sha'ul Dawud Bassun (19th century)
 * Shummel Salih Shmuli (1837–1915)
 * Wesam al-Azzawy (1960-)
 * Yusuf Badros Aslan (1844–1929)
 * Yusuf Hugi Pataw (1886–1976)

MatthewVanitas (talk) 13:28, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Removing "further reading"
It all seems to be general/broad pieces about Mesopotamian music, presumably to push an Iraqi origin? By titles, there seems no clear and specific reason to include them here.


 * Duchesne-Guillemin, Marcelle (1980). "Sur la restitution de la musique hourrite". Revue de Musicologie 66, no. 1 (1980): 5–26.
 * Duchesne-Guillemin, Marcelle (1984). A Hurrian Musical Score from Ugarit: The Discovery of Mesopotamian Music, Sources from the Ancient Near East, vol. 2, fasc. 2. Malibu, CA: Undena Publications. ISBN 0-89003-158-4
 * Fink, Robert (1981). The Origin of Music: A Theory of the Universal Development of Music. Saskatoon: Greenwich-Meridian.
 * Gütterbock, Hans (1970). "Musical Notation in Ugarit". Revue d'assyriologie et d'archéologie orientale 64, no. 1 (1970): 45–52.
 * Kilmer, Anne Draffkorn (1971). The Discovery of an Ancient Mesopotamian Theory of Music. Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society 115:131–49.
 * Kilmer, Anne Draffkorn (1974). "The Cult Song with Music from Ancient Ugarit: Another Interpretation". Revue d'Assyriologie 68:69–82.
 * Kilmer, Anne Draffkorn (1997). "Musik, A: philologisch". Reallexikon der Assyriologie und vorderasiatischen Archäologie 8, edited by Dietz Otto Edzard, 463–82. Berlin: De Gruyter. ISBN 3-11-014809-9.
 * Kilmer, Anne (2001). "Mesopotamia §8(ii)". The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, second edition, edited by Stanley Sadie and John Tyrrell. London: Macmillan Publishers.
 * Kilmer, Anne Draffkorn, Richard L. Crocker, and Robert R. Brown (1976). Sounds from Silence: Recent Discoveries in Ancient Near Eastern Music. Berkeley: Bit Enki Publications, 1976. Includes LP record, Bit Enki Records BTNK 101, reissued [s.d.] as CD.
 * Vitale, Raoul (1982). "La Musique suméro-accadienne: gamme et notation musicale". Ugarit-Forschungen 14 (1982): 241–63.
 * Wellesz, Egon, ed. (1957). New Oxford History of Music Volume I: Ancient and Oriental Music. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
 * West, M[artin]. L[itchfiel]. (1994). "The Babylonian Musical Notation and the Hurrian Melodic Texts". Music and Letters 75, no. 2 (May): 161–79.
 * Wulstan, David (1968). "The Tuning of the Babylonian Harp". Iraq 30:215–28.
 * Wulstan, David (1971). "The Earliest Musical Notation". Music and Letters 52 (1971): 365–82.

Move proposal
This article seems a WP:Coatrack offshoot of Santur created for what appear to be nationalist reasons of arguing over Iraqi vs. Iranian origin. Can we find a way to combine this into the main Santur article, ensuring that we cover Iranian, Iraqi, and Turkish versions of the instrument; these are all very similar in construction and play, yes? The origin issue may be contested, but the way to address that is be noting the controversy, not creating separate articles to argue causes. MatthewVanitas (talk) 13:35, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Move proposal agreed
I agree. Music is not a political battle. The fact is that the Santur is a part of many cultures in the middle east, eastern Europe, China, India and the modern day hammered dulcimer represents how far west it has travelled and eventually became a fully chromatic instrument. The Iraqi santur page has a long list of musicians which are not cited. This list was being forced onto the original Santur page which is why I started editing it again and forced into a political battle.

This list has been removed a few times and again placed back on here against the rules of Wikipedia. It is an embarrassment to both the people listed without reference and to the page which makes the reader see a long list with no citations or references to a CD, book, website, picture or anything to tell the readers: that these people are real.

The pages should be combined into one Santur page and the Turkish, Iraqi, Iranian and all other versions should be represented fairly, jointly and amicably. The Persian santur page had a diagram of Santur's from around the world and someone erased that too.

I'm not an expert. But I am a musician. I do play the Santur. I studied it with different masters including Santur teachers from different cultures and it's an amazing instrument. I learned how to build them and I have respect for all different types of hammered dulcimers from around the world.

but I was attacked for inputing my knowledge on here, that's been here since wikipedia started. I never wanted this job and have been doing it for a while and every time I take a break when I come back, the Persian santur page, has been either diminished, renamed, moved or forwarded to outer space.

God bless all Iraqi, Iranian, Turkish, Chinese, Indian, Romanian, American and all Santur players from around the world.

Santurman (talk) 03:10, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Agreed
I second the notion to combine the two Santur articles. It only builds redundancy and inefficiency.

--Arzashkun (talk) 12:06, 14 August 2014 (UTC)