Talk:Irene Dunne/Archive 1

Biography assessment rating comment
WikiProject Biography Assessment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 00:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Multiple references cite that Irene was the girl in the swimsuit in House of Tomorrow. I'm a bit skeptical. For one thing, the girl doesn't look like Irene. Second, House of Tomorrow was made in 1949 and Irene was 51 years old by then. The girl in the cartoon clearly is not 51 years old, in fact, she doesn't even look like she could be 30 in the footage. Of course, the cartoon may have used old stock footage of Irene posing in a swimsuit when she was much younger but I don't think (and I'm certainly not an expert on fasion) bikinis existed prior to 1930. If that really is Irene, and Irene was born in 1898, and the girl in the cartoon isn't much older than 30, then the footage dates back to the 1920s, and I doubt that swimsuits of that style existed in the 1920s. Does anyone care to comment? Are there any sources that can confirm that she really is Irene Dunne?

What's the source for her first marriage? It's internally inconsistent (says she was 18, though in 1913 she would have been 15), and other bios I've seen haven't referenced her first marriage. I cleaned up the formatting, but then started to wonder whether it shouldn't be deleted if there isn't a source for it. Mfenger (talk) 04:44, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

File:Irene Dunne, 1933.jpg Nominated for Deletion
Was her husband really called Frances, which is a girls name, or should it be Francis? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.50.210 (talk) 13:09, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Irene Dunne personal life
As far as ALL of the numbers of places I have read her biography, this section of the article:

Dunne married her first husband John Swanee on December 29, 1913. Swanee started gambling and drinking, which began to worry 18-year-old Irene. She decided to divorce Swanee after exactly 2 months of the marriage; they divorced on March 2, 1914. They lived together in a mansion located at 1000 W Madison Ave in Montebello, California.
 * ==Personal life==

...is complete fantasy. In 1913 Dunne would have been 15, and this would have put a serious crimp in how she was to earn the academic credentials in Chicago which are always mentioned in any other biography of her. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mecookster (talk • contribs) 01:57, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Personal Life
Where did this information come from? It seems garbled and like a cut and paste from another article. I have never heard of Irene Dunne having a first marriage. The ages do not make sense. Dr. Griffith was never a future or would be actor. The addresses don't make sense (movies stars never lived in Montebello, CA). I think this whole section should be returned to its condition before the March revision. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rkolian (talk • contribs) 09:30, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Come to terms with edit selections?
I'm not quite following the above discussion on "Personal Life", but as it stands, the article doesn't say when she married. In the September 2005 version of the article it reads:


 * She was married to Dr. Francis Dennis Griffin from July 16, 1928, until his death on October 15, 1965; they had 1 adopted daughter.

This was also dropped, a much more positive evaluation replacing it:


 * Much disparaged by James Agee and later critics, she is now best remembered for an uncharacteristically mad-cap and hilarious performance in "The Awful Truth", and as Anna Leonowens in the original non-musical film of Anna and the King of Siam. Her career finally ended in 1954 after several unsuccessful films.

Here's a secondary source for the James Agee comment (there are also other interesting tidbits in the source):


 * Dunne's career achievement has long been damaged by two key critical reactions to her work: James Agee's assertion in the forties that she made his skin crawl, and Pauline Kael's assorted bitchy comments about Dunne's performances in her book of short reviews, 5001 Nights at the Movies. Agee and Kael are two of the greatest film critics, and hugely influential, so it helps to put their comments in context. http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/57/dunne.php

I don't know anything about her, but at the moment it seems the Wiki article is biased and incomplete. Leptus Froggi (talk) 10:58, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Date of birth
I think it needs to be explained why, if she was born in 1898, it says 1901 on her grave. I did a little bit of research but I don't really know how accurate the "Hollywood" age thing is. Anyway having the discrepancy is confusing and needs to be addressed. Coinmanj (talk) 07:41, 18 August 2015 (UTC) Coinmanj (talk) 07:41, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * You're right...I added a line or two. Ewulp (talk) 01:04, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 19:05, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130712215415/http://www.vanityfair.com/style/the-international-best-dressed-list/hall-of-fame-women to http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/bestdressed/bestdressed_women?currentPage=1

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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20041211022012/http://www.filmsofthegoldenage.com/foga/1998/fall98/irenedunne.shtml to http://www.filmsofthegoldenage.com/foga/1998/fall98/irenedunne.shtml
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110127011740/http://www.irenedunnesite.com/ to http://www.irenedunnesite.com/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070805080258/http://www.kennedy-center.org/calendar/index.cfm?fuseaction=showIndividual&entitY_id=3722&source_type=A to http://www.kennedy-center.org/calendar/index.cfm?fuseaction=showIndividual&entitY_id=3722&source_type=A

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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://archive.is/20131205071729/http://www.irenedunnesite.com/biography/the-pre-hollywood-years-1898-1929/ to http://www.irenedunnesite.com/biography/the-pre-hollywood-years-1898-1929/

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Why isn't Bright Star listed under radio appearances?
Bright Star (aka The Irene Dunne-Fred MacMurray Show) was a 30-minute radio comedy-drama broadcast in 1952-53 and syndicated by Ziv. The storyline followed the misadventures of Hillsdale Morning Star editor Susan Armstrong (Irene Dunne) and her idealistic ace reporter George Harvey (Fred MacMurray) as they attempted to keep the struggling newspaper in business despite continual financial problems. Robotpresident (talk) 00:17, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Is this GA ready?
I looked at this article as a potential GA review to do, and I I don't think it's ready to be nominated. Just eyeballing it, this is what needs to be taken care of.

1) Citations should not be pointing to titles in a "Further Reading" section. It should be either "Sources" section or "Bibliography" section, or similar. "Further reading" is simply a list to say "these might also be of interest to the reader".  And there should be nothing listed in the Sources/Bibliography section except what is used as referencing in the article.

2) Irene Dunn's films are not sourced in the article, neither in the body text nor in the Films table. Since you also have the other tables with sourced Ref columns, there should be consistency by doing the same for the Films table. If I were doing the GA review, I would also require that the films in the body of the text be sourced according to the table sourcing.

I haven't looked at it beyond that, but the sourcing issues need to be taken care of. Perhaps you are already aware of the sourcing databases I list below. But if not, they're handy to use. Good luck to you with this. — Maile (talk) 20:47, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Film sources



 * American Film Institute - "The American Film Institute was founded by a 1965 presidential mandate announced in the Rose Garden of the White House by Lyndon B. Johnson—to establish a national arts organization to preserve the legacy of American film heritage, educate the next generation of filmmakers, and honor the artists and their work. Two years later, in 1967, AFI was established, supported by the National Endowment for the Arts, the Motion Picture Association of America and the Ford Foundation."


 * Internet Broadway Database - "Operated by the Research Department of The Broadway League, a trade association for the North American commercial theatre community." IBDB "is an online database of Broadway theatre productions and their personnel, including lengths of runs, lists of casts and creators, awards and nominations, and past box office grosses. Its research department maintains historical data on individual playhouses and productions. In addition, many reference documents, including weekly box office grosses and season-by-season statistics, are available to the public, journalists, and scholars via the website."

GAC review
Thanks for the feedback and help! I'll have a sort-through. —MonkeyStolen234 (talk) 21:14, 29 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Let me know if you clean it up like that. I'd like to have a go at doing a GA review for this. — Maile (talk) 21:18, 29 May 2020 (UTC)


 * By the way, it's easier to source the tables first.  If you do source all within the tables, then sourcing the films up in the body can be sporadic, only the ones that are most important to a given paragraph ... if that makes sense.  — Maile  (talk) 21:24, 29 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it makes sense. Thanks. Talk back with you soon. —MonkeyStolen234 (talk) 21:51, 29 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Where did you get that URL on AFI? Definitely not GA quality style sourcing. This is the message it gives me when I try to open it:
 * "Error 1001 Ray ID: 59b453e2787beaf8 • 2020-05-30 00:27:08 UTC DNS resolution error What happened? You've requested a page on a website (archive.vn) that is on the Cloudflare network. Cloudflare is currently unable to resolve your requested domain (archive.vn). There are two potential causes of this ..."
 * Use this URL: https://aficatalog.afi.com/ All you are doing is trying to drop in one link to source all the titles in the table. In effect, that's like sourcing a table by linking to a general index page of a book.  Please open the individual film links and source it that way, one by one with the individual urls. The details on the individual film, the  role and Notes column, for instance, are in the individual pages, not on the full list.  — Maile  (talk) 00:43, 30 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi,, I've followed your advice and have performed a clean-up of the page throughout the week. Is this a better contender? —MonkeyStolen234 (talk) 23:45, 5 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I've been following along with what you are doing. How about if I start the GA review tomorrow when I have a little more time, and we can just go from there?  — Maile  (talk) 23:55, 5 June 2020 (UTC)


 * , that's fine by me. —MonkeyStolen234 (talk) 08:09, 6 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I started to do the GA review, but then backed off. I leave the GA review to another editor. There are many issues, and this article would benefit with assistance from the Guild of Copy Editors WP:GOCER. Below is only a sampling of what I saw. You can take my advice - or not. But from this point forward, it needs other eyes but mine.


 * Some issues:
 * (1) I see you copying archived  source URLs from somewhere to this article. Not advisable to just copy and paste URLs from one Wikipedia article to another. Links change, websites are hijacked or black listed. This includes archived URLs. As I noted very clearly above, when I tried to access one of the AFI archived URLS, I was redirected to a site that threw off an error record.
 * (2) Just duplicating the AFI link that lists her entire filmography defeats the purpose of the individual cells next to each listing in the filmography. You might want to put a link to the specific film AFI page in the reference cell.
 * (3) The Irene Dunne site has been usurped by a Chinese entity and blocked by my ISP as a dangerous risky site
 * (4) "Irene Marie Dunn on Dunn" - Family genealogy sites are usually self-published and not a reliable source WP:QUESTIONABLE
 * (5) Find a Grave is self-published and not a reliable source
 * (6) Lead - needs work. Ideally about 4 proportional paragraphs, summarizing the article contents. I'm not sure what ".. developed an interest in ... countryside life." actually means in reference to anything I saw in the article.

Good luck with this. — Maile (talk) 16:23, 6 June 2020 (UTC)


 * One point: per MOS:LEADLENGTH (a section of MOS:LEAD, part of the "well-written" section of the criteria), four paragraphs is not recommended for articles in the 15,000 to 30,000 prose character length (this is about the middle of that range): two to three is the recommendation. But the rest of number 6 stands. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:40, 6 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Talk:Irene Dunne/GA1