Talk:Irene Kepl

Inter-wiki links
Hi there. I don't know how to link to wikipedia articles in other languages. For example, there is a wikipedia article about Dwiki Dharmawan, but it's on the Indonesian Wikipedia, and apparently doesn't link there, automatically.
 * You'll find a discussion of this topic at Help:Interwiki linking. NewYorkActuary (talk) 22:31, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Discussion during review at Articles for Creation
Before commenting on the submission itself, I'll note that there might possibly be a conflict of interest here, because the subject is going to perform at your festival and this article might be seen as an indirect means of promoting that festival. I'm not going to raise an issue about it; I mention it only so that other reviewers will be aware of the relationship.

On a minor note, the list of compositions probably doesn't belong here. Composers who have an extensive list of notable compositions typically will have a separate article titled List of compositions by NAME OF COMPOSER. For those who don't have so many of them, the usual approach is to simply identify the notable ones in the prose discussion of the composer's career (along, of course, with some indication as to why the particular composition is significant to that career). On a similarly minor note, do you really need five references to support the fact that Kepl released an album on Fou Records? You might want to read our essay on over-citing for more discussion of this topic.

The most basic concern here is with the question of whether this musician meets Wikipedia's notion of "notability". I recognize that you believe that she does, but you have not yet been successful in demonstrating this to the reviewers (including me). To a great extent, you weakened your argument by placing so many of the references in the form of "bare URL's". By doing this, you fail to provide essential bibliographic detail such as who was the author of a reference, as well as when and where it was published. In effect, you are telling the readers (including the reviewers) that if they want to learn this essential information, they need to leave Wikipedia and go learn it for themselves. You can make it easier for reviewers to "see what you see" if you re-format your references using the cite web template. This template will serve to remind you about the essential bibliographic detail that should be provided and will produce a reference that has a standard -- and more professional-appearing -- format.

If you choose to respond to these comments here, I would be interested in learning which particular aspects of WP:MUSICBIO you feel are met by Kepl. I see that you might point to the Theodor Körner Prize as an example. One problem I have with that (and it's a serious problem for me) is that the article on the prize simply states that it is a prestigious award. It doesn't actually provide any evidence for that assertion. Perhaps you can provide something here that might convince us that this one prize, in itself, causes Kepl to meet MUSICBIO. Or, feel free to offer any other evidence that you think might be helpful.

I look forward to your response. NewYorkActuary (talk) 23:11, 26 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi NYA, thanks for your detailed feedback. Since it apparently is not a very simple process of generating a Wikipedia article, and technically very demanding, in terms of syntax, I do not think the possible conflict of interest will be an issue, since by the time I will have come around to edit this to a state it's going to be accepted in, the festival will be over. :D But that's fine, I'll finish my work as best as I can, even though it might have to wait until after the festival.
 * I just now did another quick search for the Theodor Körner Prize and also came up with a speech of the Austrian President, who always has a reception with the recipients of the price right after the ceremony, and as far as google translate is trustworthy, he speaks about the importance of the price here: http://www.bundespraesident.at/newsdetail/artikel/rede-anlaesslich-des-empfanges-fuer-die-theodor-koerner-preistraeger-29-04-2009/. Would this be the kind of reference that's sufficing? Also, after having read the WP:MUSICBIO again, the twelth bullet point of being featured in a substantial national broadcast segment is met by appearing in Jazznacht and Musikprotokoll @ ORF (broadcaster).
 * The over-citing probably comes from the fact that I was just trying to meet the reference standard SwisterTwister was requesting, and since I don't know anything about which source would be labeled as reliable I was just gathering multiple sources, so it might be apparent, that this record is not only released but has triggered a number of good reviews. :)
 * Regarding the "bare URL's", I don't quite understand completely. Since after the first review, someone added some cite-tags, I from this point on, added links only imitating these tags, so I don't quite understand the difference to what you are saying I should do. Is it just about adding also dates when I researched the webpages and trying to edit the title tags to better describe the info on the sources which relates to the article? So, I will try to comply all the links with the template you provided, as far as I understand it.
 * Thanks for taking the time, and I will see when I get around to put a bit more work into my first article. :D
 * Vtsound
 * Thanks for the quick response. Unfortunately, I'm nearing the end of my day's Wiki-activities and I'll have to address most of your response tomorrow.  In the meantime, I have just two quick points.  First, you should be signing your posts by ending them with four tildes ... and nothing else.  By placing your username in the middle of the four tildes, the computer system isn't recognizing it as a "signature".  This has two effects.  First, it nullifies the replyto notification template, because that template is activated only if it is added in a post that also has a valid signature.  And second, it forces the system to come back and add your signature for you.  Not a big deal in itself, but it clogs up the page history with robot-edits that wouldn't be needed if you just signed with the four tildes.  On a more substantive (but still quick) note, in the next few minutes I'll go to your article and re-format one of your bare URLs with the cite web template.  Clicking the blue link in the last sentence will take you to the description page for the template, and looking at the wiki-code in the article will show how it gets used in practice.  Thanks again for the quick response.  I'll be back tomorrow.  NewYorkActuary (talk) 04:32, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * P.S. I just found that you were using the cite web template -- but you didn't add the information that the template was designed to collect.  I filled in one of them.  NewYorkActuary (talk) 04:38, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi NYA, thanks a bunch. Now I understand what you mean. That's easy to do. ;) And sorry about the signing. I thought it's like tags, as it's near the "cite your sources"-button, which also inserts tags. So, looking forward to an answer regarding the reference of the speech from the president. And I will find some time to start changing the links. Cheers.Vtsound (talk) 00:00, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I still think this is a borderline case, but I also think you make a reasonable case in pointing to the Austrian Public Radio segments. A deletion-inclined editor might note that one of the segments is only a few minutes long and that the other appears (judging from the broadcast page) to devote a good portion of its time to playing records by other artists.  But on the other hand, these segments, in conjunction with the Korner award, just might be enough to cross the "notability" hurdle.
 * The chances of attracting a deletion nomination will be greatly reduced if the draft is "cleaned up" to conform with the standards that are used in most of our musician biographies (and that are universally used in our "good" and "featured" articles). And so I offer a proposal.  I'll be happy to do a re-write / re-structure.  You, of course, will be free to revert any of my changes.  But my goal will be to produce a draft that covers the same ground as you have already covered, but in a manner that most other editors would expect to see in a musician biography.  If we can work together on this, I am confident that we can get the draft cleaned up and published within the next two or three days.  However, I do not want to volunteer to do all of the "fill ins" on the references and I hope that you could take on that part of the job.
 * I look forward to your response. NewYorkActuary (talk) 00:16, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
 * P.S. This response was posted about the same time as yours, so there was an "edit conflict".  My post was drafted before I read your response.  NewYorkActuary (talk) 00:16, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Wow, I was not expecting this. :D Yes, I will polish all the fill ins of the links and have asked a colleague from Germany about publications in print media, because of course, I wouldn't have those here, since mainly published in Austria or Europe. He's an encyclopaedia for himself, so if there's articles about her, he'll have them. Maybe this will further help the case. I appreciate any help you can give for further making the article ready for/closer to approval. Thanks very much.Vtsound (talk) 09:18, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
 * P.S.: I have further edited links and reduced the overciting. I have also received two print articles as photos. How would I add these as sources?Vtsound (talk) 12:55, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
 * P.P.S.: I have now basically edited all article references to include authornames, dates and everything. I'm also in the process of transcribing a featured article in the Austrian music magazine "freistil" to be able to translate it to English for extracting information. Still, it would be good to know, in case it makes sense to include this article, how to include a source like that. Thanks.Vtsound (talk) 01:42, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Discussion during review - part 2
Although I was on-site during the weekend, it was only intermittently and I wasn't able to set aside the time to work on this draft. But I now have a few hours that I can use for the purpose. I'll post back here after I've done the re-write / re-structure. Thank you for your patience. NewYorkActuary (talk) 20:41, 30 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Hey NYA, you don't have to apologise. I'm grateful and in any case I learned a lot and in the meantime just pushed out another article about the National Live Music Awards. This was on the request list, and I knew a little about it, so hey, why not. :D So all good. Your help is very much appreciated. Cheers. Vtsound (talk) 04:52, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks again for the patience. I'll get back to work on this tomorrow.  I also took a look at your other article and made some changes to conform with the Manual of Style.  If you've got any questions about those changes, feel free to ask on that page's Talk page.  NewYorkActuary (talk) 05:09, 31 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Hey NYA, since you started to work on the article, I didn't want to directly edit it, and also, it's good if you decide, if the following is actually good/needed for the article. I found another radio feature/interview of Kepl here . Also, through reading there, I found the band Jazzwa here: which have released some CDs and were apparently still active in 2016. Also I found a version of a more detailed biography until 2011 on the DonneInMusic-page here: . It seems Christoph Cech also was her teacher while studying Jazz. I also found a reference to another film composition of her here, since IMDB is not a credible source: . And there is another one here: . I had this one in the list of compositions as of the musicaustria-database, and since you seperated the film scores in an extra section I thought I might look them up more in detail. :D
 * I can also edit this into the article, I just don't know, since it's now officially under review and you are working on it, I thought I'll post it here and ask first.Vtsound (talk) 02:34, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

As you can see, I've drastically reduced the amount of material that now appears in the draft. However, I do intend to add material to the (new) "Critical reception" section. I also know that I haven't mentioned Kepl's work with VERSO, so that'll need to be done, as well. But for now, I'll express my concerns about a lot of the sources that I've remove (but stored for safe-keeping in the section below). A lot of those sources simply give a brief biography of Kepl. I see no evidence that any of these sources did any independent research and it is almost certain that they are simply republishing information that they got either from Kepl herself or her web site. And on top of that, several of the sources (and I'm thinking here of the residency ones) don't provide anything in the way of context. Putting these two concerns together, I'm finding it difficult to see any encyclopedic value in those sources. Perhaps you disagree and, if so, I'll be happy to discuss each source with you. But right now, I couldn't see a way to work them into a coherent narrative thread and I found it preferable to remove them rather than have them appear as disjointed facts.

Another concern comes from those sources that are really just blogs. Blogs from people who are not already notable in their field are not well-received on Wikipedia. This is especially true for music reviews, for which a common reaction is something like "Who cares what a blogger thought about the album?" I do intend to use the Foxall review, because I was able to establish that he has been a long-time reviewer at an established jazz magazine. But I have no confidence in most of the others. Special note should be taken of the Daniel Spicer review that is attributed to Jazzwise magazine. There's no question that a review in that magazine would be a welcome addition to the article. The problem is -- the on-line archive for the magazine doesn't acknowledge that they ever reviewed it. I don't think the review is a fabrication. Instead, I think that someone misidentified it and that this misidentification has been repeated on other sites that discuss the album. Until the matter is cleared up, I don't see how we can use it here.

I didn't yet look at all of the sources that you gave in your last post. But as for your question about editing the draft, you are quite free to do so. I don't expect to be editing here again for at least twelve hours, so there's little chance that we'll be getting in each other's way. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the matters I've raised here. In the meantime, just two quick questions -- (1) do you know what instrument Dharmawan plays? (I didn't have the energy to run the Indonesian article through the Google translator.) and (2) do we know what composition got her the Korner prize? If you happen to know the answers, feel free to add them in place of the "_____"'s that now appear in the draft. NewYorkActuary (talk) 05:52, 1 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi there. OK, I've edited in the two films including the references, fixed some mistakes with the Resonators release and corrected/added some info on the VioletSpin part. And since I have the Jazz Wise Magazine of March 2015 at hand, where the review is actually printed in, I deem the source for the Spicer-review of "Taschendrache" reliable and added this link back into critical reception. I can send a photo of the printed review, or upload it somewhere, if necessary. I also added a section about Jazzwa and agree that the only major thing missing now is probably the Ensemble Verso, given they have been playing at Brucknerhaus "Fest der neuen Musik" (sorry for that bare link reference, going to bed already and just wrapping up the changes here) and the release with zeromoon lately.

Discussion during review - part 3 (final?)
I've done a bit of restructuring, mostly to maintain a more strict chronology. However, I didn't add anything about Verso. Perhaps its the lateness of the hour, but I couldn't make sense of where that group fit into the overall story and I thought it better to just leave it out until I did have a clearer idea. A few specific comments:
 * The Spicer review Perhaps the error was simply that the Jazzwise archive forgot to list one of its short reviews.  I've assumed that this was the case and added a discussion of it.  However, I cited it to the magazine, and not to the web site.  You'll need to fill in the page number on which the review appears.  Also, I just assumed that the location of Jazzwise Publications was London, but if you've got the magazine you can easily verify whether or not that was a correct assumption.
 * Resonators album When I looked at the album's entry on Discogs, I didn't see any mention of an overall name for the group, so I assumed it was a "various artists" album.  This assumption was helped along by the credits, which show that each of the three musicians is the sole performer for each track.  For these same reasons, I'm not convinced that Resonators is the name of anything other than the album.  If you've got evidence to the contrary, please let me know.  For now, I've addressed the issue by simply saying that Kepl "participated" in the recording.
 * Not big deals, but just so you know ... Under our Manual of Style, italics get used just for works such as albums or films, but not for the names of festivals or bands.  Also, the reference markers go after, not before, a sentence's ending punctuation.  Finally, the names of music genres are not capitalized (i.e., "jazz", not "Jazz").
 * External links Under the style guidelines at WP:WPMAG, we are discouraged from adding interviews as external links to a musician's biography.  Essentially, we are advised to use them only as sources for information that might be added to the article.  I didn't go through those interviews, so I just moved the links to the Talk page for safekeeping.  Another general consideration for external links is that they should only be used if they present material that would not be appropriate for inclusion in the article (such as, here, a listing of compositions).  So I looked through the concert review with an eye towards finding something to add to the "Critical reception" section.  But that review didn't really focus on Kepl and its few remarks about her didn't seem helpful for the article.  So I just move that link over to here, as well.

I think we're pretty close to finishing this. Let me know if you've got any concerns about how I've approached the write-up. NewYorkActuary (talk) 08:10, 2 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Hey. Wow, this is nicely cleaned up. To your points:


 * Theodor Körner Price As far as I understand from the call for proposals, this is not awarded for a specific composition but rather for the perspective and development of the given composer and proposal of a work to do in the future, so the price is basically awarded to a person, not for a specific work.


 * Spicer Review Will add the page number! :D


 * Resonators I'm pretty sure it's a trio, since I do own the cd. There is a short interview about them on the label page here. Would this be a reference, since it's close to the label and the artist themselves?


 * Verso I agree that this is confusing, even for me, following her work. As far as I understand this is an open ensemble form for contemporary classical music which changes lineups depending on compositions. She established this first for the get weaving piece which I witnessed the world premiere in Klagenfurt at the New Adits Festival, and the "Brucknerhaus" concert mentioned above where they performed her piece brain (for which the concert review is a source, couldn't find this anywhere else), as well as the recording of get weaving at "Stille Kammer" in "Porgy & Bess" Vienna. So, basically all this seems to be working in parallel. I'll try to formulate something, but would be happy if you looked over it, you being the guy actually making this article work, while I just do some humble background checks and google searches for references. :D But so I could use that review you took out for now as a reference source.


 * form Thanks for indicating me the correct ways of style. I'll try to do my best to comply. ;)


 * Article looks great. I hope I can finish my part of it, now. Otherwise it will be Monday, because Saturday & Sunday we'll have the festival, so really no time at all.Vtsound (talk) 09:51, 2 February 2017 (UTC)


 * P.S.: I have now edited in the changes and think it would be good if you have a look over them, again, regarding formulation and sources and references and stuff. But as far as I can see this article now holds all the things I would consider important from the point of view of a guy with a little knowledge of the improvisational and contemporary classical music scene.Vtsound (talk) 12:24, 2 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the additions to the draft. I'm just about ready to publish this.  I have two questions about Verso, but before asking them I'll briefly explain my various edits.  First, I removed some detail that wasn't encyclopedic.  For instance, it's one thing to say that a film is short, but does the reader really need to know that it was 33 minutes long?  Also, we haven't identified the names of the players in any of Kepl's other groups, so why identify the other musicians on the Resonators album? (And please forgive my obstinance, but I'm still not convinced that Resonators is the name of anything other than the album.)  Similarly, do we really need the name of the club where Verso performed in 2013?  On a more substantive note, I recognize that my posts have been citing one damn rule after another, but here's another one -- we can't be citing a person's thoughts or intentions as if they were verifiable facts.  And so, at best, we could say that "Kepl said in an interview that her reason for forming Verso was ...".  But we haven't been adding that form of detail anywhere else, so I relegated that tidbit to an annotation in the footnote for the interview.  And that same footnote also mentions the residency at the artist community in New York.  I wasn't entirely comfortable citing that as Kepl's initial source of international recognition, so I used the Jakarta performance as the lead-in to the final paragraph (instead of the residency).
 * My two questions:
 * 1) How do we know that "get weaving" was recorded at the jazz club in 2013? Is there some other source that connects the 2016 release on Zeromoon with the 2013 performance at the Stegen Kammer?
 * 2) The 2015 interview with Roiss links the brain performance with an upcoming appearance by Verso at Brucknerhaus, apparently one that was scheduled for September 25, 2015. So why are we linking it to a program that verifies her appearance at Brucknerfest in 2014?
 * I appreciate that you're on a tight deadline because of the festival, so if you are unable to resolve these two matters, I'll be happy to remove the (what appear to me to be) incongruous statements and we can revisit them after the article is published. Either way, I'd like to get this "live" tomorrow morning.
 * On a different note, if you're handy with a digital camera, why not take a photo of Ms. Kepl this weekend and then donate it to Wikipedia Commons? If you do that, we can add it to the article next week.
 * I look forward to hearing from you, either before or after the weekend. Good luck with the festival.  NewYorkActuary (talk) 05:34, 3 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Hey hey. The short film thing I just corrected because it before said it was a feature. I thought it would be a detailed information to provide the length. I'm just not used to write encyclopedic, yet. :D Same goes for the other musicians on the Resonators record. Also, as you formulated it now, that leaves it open to interpretation, so this seems to be the safest bet to not be wrong about the name of the group. :D But I think it is. ;) I did mention the "Strenge Kammer" @ Porgy & Bess, because for the free improv and contemporary scene it's a very important place, but as everything I find out and put into the text, this is filtered through my personal feel of what seems to be important, but as always, after you have cleaned it up, some things are gone which I don't miss, and you have a good sense of what to additionally add, so, one can see, you have done this quite a few times, already. And I'm learning a lot. So, no worries about citing the rules. It's hard to internalise them all at once.
 * 1) There was a limited release of the recording by Kepl herself as a CD which she sent I assume to various festivals, including us. This was sometime last year, before the zeromoon release. On this CD, there is a back cover stating more details regarding the recording. I've taken a picture and uploaded it here: https://postimg.org/image/5sovgb2v3/
 * 2) Totally true. I didn't double check years. So it seems, they played at Brucknerhaus in 2014 AND 2015, then. It's in the 2015-schedule on page 39, too: Seems in 2015 it was for "Brucknerfest" while in 2014 at "Festival der neuen Musik"???
 * We'll have a photographer at the festival, so I'll ask for a photo of her. That should be easy. Thanks again for basically writing this article with my help. Was a great experience!Vtsound (talk) 11:46, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I understand that you are very busy right now and so I don't expect a response, but on the off chance that you read this before the weekend I wanted to alert you to an issue about uploading images to the Commons. The easiest way to do it is if you -- personally -- hold the copyright to the image.  If the photo was taken by someone who was hired by your organization, the image might still be eligible for uploading to Commons, but the procedure for doing so will be a bit more complicated.  If you like, we can discuss this in more detail next week.  Again, best of luck with the festival.

Ensemble 09
As of the mica.at source Kepl was a member of Ensemble09. I have researched this in depth and it appears that ensemble was active in over 100 concerts in 2009, but I couldn't find any (other) source of the general members of Ensemble09. Since it appears this was actually her breakthrough as being recognised widely as a solo violinist in Austria, I have included this into her career part. Certainly it would be good to find maybe a print source of a review of one of the concerts, or some other form of general information about Ensemble09 personnel.Vtsound (talk) 15:32, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Unused sources
Recordings
 * photo of promotional CD
 * photo of promotional CD
 * photo of promotional CD
 * photo of promotional CD
 * photo of promotional CD
 * photo of promotional CD

Residencies

Interviews
 * http://versorgerin.stwst.at/artikel/aug-31-2013-1648/hinher-keine-architektur-von-zeit (2013) [interview with Irene Kepl by Versorgerin]
 * http://diereferentin.servus.at/mit-bach-und-krach/ (2015) [interview with Irene Kepl by Stephan Roiss/Die Referentin]
 * http://www.musicaustria.at/meine-geige-ist-nicht-die-brillanteste-kein-modernes-solo-instrument-mica-interview-mit-irene-kepl/ (2015) [interview with Irene Kepl by Music Austria]

Other
 * http://eastsidefm.org/foundsoundslosthorizons/
 * http://www.nachrichten.at/nachrichten/kultur/Musik-direkt-aus-dem-Leben-gegriffen;art16,1984372 (2015) [review of concert with Ensemble VERSO Brucknerfest 2015]
 * http://eastsidefm.org/foundsoundslosthorizons/
 * http://www.nachrichten.at/nachrichten/kultur/Musik-direkt-aus-dem-Leben-gegriffen;art16,1984372 (2015) [review of concert with Ensemble VERSO Brucknerfest 2015]
 * http://eastsidefm.org/foundsoundslosthorizons/
 * http://www.nachrichten.at/nachrichten/kultur/Musik-direkt-aus-dem-Leben-gegriffen;art16,1984372 (2015) [review of concert with Ensemble VERSO Brucknerfest 2015]