Talk:Irfan Habib

Reasonless Reverts
User:Bharatveer,

You have reverted the article without giving any reason (you have a habit of doing this). In effect, you have replaced the link to the category of Marxist Historians by one to Muslim Historians, and deleted the section giving links to articles by Prof Irfan Habib. Both things removed are relevant to an entry on Irfan Habib, and I do not see any grounds on which they can be disputed.

Certainly, Irfan Habib falls more naturally under "Marxist Historian" than "Muslim Historian" as Marxism informs his work and Islam does not.

Amberhabib 05:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I did not add that category myself. I just retained that category when I reverted the article to its previous version.
 * BTW, Are you in anyway related to Irfan Habib.Are you Amber Habib??-Bharatveer 11:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Controversy Section
User:Atif nazir,

Your reasons in removing the controversy section is not convincing.You also removed another link saying it is redundant. I have restored them both. Also I have retained the ext .link you have added to the article.Bharatveer 04:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Amber habib,

See this Arun Shourie From the link "The compliments duly returned : "The first and foremost (sic.)," writes Tasneem Ahmad, "I express my profound sense of gratitude,very personal regards and respects to Professor Irfan Habib, who encouraged and guided me at every stage of the work. In spite of his very pressing engagements and pre-occupation, he ungrudgingly spared his valuable time to examine with care every intricate problem, arising out (sic.) during the course of work."

SO i am going to revert it and also re insert that arun's claims went unchallenged.Bharatveer 08:14, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Bharatveer,

A thanks for encouragement and guidance doesn't imply that the other is the PhD guide, which is a much more specific and formal role. Ahmad also thanks Satish Chandra for being his teacher and going through the work; and Nurul Hassan for inspiring him. Does this make all of them his PhD guides? Since the PhD was submitted in Rajasthan and Irfan Habib was Professor at Aligarh, he obviously could not have been the PhD guide.

--Amberhabib 07:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted the references of Phd Student; but retained that he has written a preface to the published book.Also the fact that shourie's claim went unchallenged.Bharatveer 07:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, but writing a foreword for a book doesn't implicate one in any omission by the author. There is nothing for Irfan Habib to challenge. If you want to say Tasneem Ahmad didn't defend himself, this is not the right place. --Amberhabib 11:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

It does implicate when one claims to have "guided" and "corrected" a plagiarised work.Bharatveer 13:58, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Bharatveer, Irfan Habib did not claim to have guided or corrected the work. In any case, how is Habib supposed to know a book is plagiarised (if it was) when the original had not been published? --Amberhabib 11:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Bharatveer,

First of all, this controversy (if at all true) is an insignificant part of the works of Prof. Irfan Habib. There is no need for it to cover 1/4th of the article and addition of the external link also.

What about Arun Shourie? He himself had been controversial on the topic of Islam, christianity & missionaries, Ambedkar and Marxists. His provocative and slanderous books had been mostly controversial, especially the recent book "Worshipping false gods". To be on the neutral side, I would like to remove his reference, which has been brought in totally out of context.

- Atif 14:12, 6 July 2006


 * Looks like you equate "controversy" to "criticism". If a person has written his viewpoints about certain topics, that doesn't make him of questionable authority as long as he maintains integrity. And that's why Arun shourie's writing are so important for any criticisms. However, I accept that the controversy section should have written about more important topics, like biasnesses, partiality in Irfan's works. But currently, I am only reverting the Arun shourie part currently. Yes, that should not take 1/4 of the article, but that means, you should expand the major sections of article, not deleting any section.


 * Its not me who is equating "controversy" to "criticism", its the contributor who added the "controversy" section and expanded it. If its called criticism by Arun Shourie, then the section should be called as "Criticism" on Prof. Irfan Habib's article. I have consolidated the section to scholarship.
 * While I was editing the article Bharatveer reverted back the changes (08:16, 8 July 2006) without explaining the reasons to do so. It shows an irresponsible behavior on part of any Wikipedia contributor.
 * Atif 8-July-06

I have removed the statement that Shourie accuses Irfan Habib and Tasneem Ahmad of "various unethical and fraudulent actions", because in all the references provided so far there is only one claim by Shourie of unethical action by Tasneem Ahmad, and none of Irfan Habib.Amberhabib 11:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Controversy Section again
See the discussion above and decide. I have retained your elaboration but controversy section stays.Bharatveer 08:46, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Bharatveer, About your latest claim borrowed from Shourie. Shourie's charge was that grants were sanctioned but not used. However, he cleverly omitted to tell his readers that a grant being sanctioned is not the same as money being given. The way government grants to academics work is that once the money is sanctioned, you have to do the work before you get it. Typically, a grant is sanctioned, you proceed with the work, and when you have finished it you ask for your money. In a year or two, after an audit of your bills, you may get it. If you don't do the work, you don't get the money. Sometimes, you don't get it even if you have done the work! In case an advance payment is made, and you don't deliver, you have to return the money. If you don't, it is deducted from your pension benefits. So Shourie's claims are plainly hot air. --Amberhabib 11:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Reasons not good enough to delete the controversy section.Bharatveer 12:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to delete the controversy section. I just want you to not exaggerate what Shourie says. For Irfan Habib, Shourie has a single citation of a sanctioned grant (of Rs 27000) for a project that was not completed. Shourie does *not* however say that this money was disbursed. As I have pointed out above, sanction of a grant is not the same as disbursal of money. Amberhabib 10:26, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

rm controversy section
per WP:BLP, no mention of what specific criticism or charge has been leveled against Habib. also, no mention in section of denial by Ahmed and the subsequent enquiry set up makes this pov. Doldrums 12:11, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Shourie's criticism
to include this in the article, it needs to address Habib specifically, should be neutrally worded, clearly attributed, and not be disproportionate in terms of length. see WP:BLP. any reliably sourced response to the criticism by Habib or others who defend him should also be noted to serve WP:NPOV. quoting the text in the cited source which substantiates the edit is also useful.

additions to the article which fall far short of this standard may be removed per WP:BLP. for eg, here i reverted content which is partly unsourced, non-neutral (the guilt by association tone, the scare quotes around 'scholarly'), not correctly attributed (Shourie is not "independent journalists and historians"). Doldrums 07:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

now on BLP noticeboard
reported. Doldrums 17:42, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 18:14, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.firstpost.com/india/left-historians-connived-with-extremists-mislead-muslims-on-babri-issue-says-archaeologist-in-new-book-2592188.html. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)

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External links modified
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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060622184824/http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1721/17210700.htm to http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1721/17210700.htm

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Recent edit on section 'Controversy'
A recent edit to the section 'Controversy' by the user Indophile1981 added some possibly POV statements. Also, one reference was grossly misinterpreted. Hopefully, this is just a mistake on their part. I have edited the section to make it more neutral. If anyone has objections to my edit, please raise them here. Also, one of the references is in Hindi, so it would be very helpful if someone can summarise that article, or at least the title, in English. I am informing Indophile1981 of this problem with a message on their talk page. --Jose Mathew (talk) 18:13, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I think this whole section is WP:UNDUE and WP:BLP violation. Also, entirely POV-filled. For instance, it is not even mentioned that Irfan Habib was the outgoing president of the Indian History Congress and was chairing the session in which Arif Mohammed Khan was speaking. Nothing has been said about why Khan had junked his prepared speech and decided to speak extempore addressing the current political issues, entirely inappropriately in a History conference. We also need to wonder why is this being added as a "controversy" on the Irfan Habib's page, while nothing was added to the Arif Mohammed Khan's page?
 * I am removing the section. Please discuss here what content if any needs to be stated and is appropriate in a page on one of India's topmost historians. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:49, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Here is a lit of articles published by The Hindu on the "controversy". Please make sure to cover all of them if you decide to write a section on this business. And remember that there is no limit to how many times I can revert WP:BLP violations.
 * Students stage protest during Kerala Governor's speech at Indian History Congress, The Hindu, 28 December 2019.


 * Kerala Governor faces protest at history congress in Kannur, The Hindu, 29 December 2019.


 * Indian History Congress did not invite Governor: Irfan Habib, The Hindu 29 December 2019.


 * 'Bound to uphold Constituiton', The Hindu, 30 December 2019.


 * Governor conveys displeasure to Chief Secretary, The Hindu, 30 December 2019.


 * Govenor's protocol was not violated: VC, The Hindu, 30 December 2019.


 * Governor was not invited to speak on CAA: Irfan Habib, The Hindu, 30 December 2019.


 * Irfan Habib denies allegations, The Hindu, 31 December 2019.

-- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:18, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
 * History Congress deplores detention of delegates in Kerala, The Hindu, 31 December 2019.
 * Yes, this probably should not be put up on the article page until and unless there is consensus on wording. It is not an important point of his life, so creating a special section for it may also be unnecessary. Maybe a single sentence to the effect that there was a controversy over his alleged attempt to prevent Khan speaking would be enough. --Jose Mathew (talk) 10:52, 31 December 2019 (UTC)