Talk:Irina Odoyevtseva

Sex life, etc.
User:Wwallacee, Thanks for your recent contributions to the article, you've improved it a lot. This bit, though, left me slightly baffled: An example of their sex life can be found in the papers of the French writer Georges Bataille: "In December 1937 [...] Laure and myself prepared a dinner: we were expecting Ivanov and Odoyevtseva. Just as we had planned, the dinner proved no less wild than the wind blowing that day. Odoevtseva, naked, began to vomit. I wonder how can this rather minimalistic account (even if it is correct) serve as an 'example of their sex life' if it does very little to elicit even the nature of the incident described? Does the source imply that she began to vomit as a result of, perhaps, having too much sex with Georges and/or Laure? Or, as I rather suspect, the quality of food should be taken into account?) Never mind, keep a good work.

...Yes, that was indeed the Yevtushenko ref. The offending (skint) word comes from "...петроградская полуголодная богема заучивала наизусть". 'Polugolodnaya' here literally translates as 'half-starved', which the first time round I disliked for some reason. But yes, 'skint' sounds even worse. Perhaps you'd want to look for a better word. Thanks again. -- Evermore2 (talk) 17:30, 23 September 2016 (UTC)


 * @User:Evermore2 - Thanks for your oversight! I am totally ignorant of the Russian language and used Google Translate to crack the code! I do know French however and did look up myself the reference to her in Bataille's papers. I agree it is not strictly necessary that sex occurred... but she was naked though! Anyway I'll correct accordingly.Wwallacee (talk) 18:13, 23 September 2016 (UTC)


 * @User:Evermore2 - I think it would be great to post a picture of her in her old age - quite a contrast to the stormy young days. There is one interesting one where she is actually holding the earlier portrait (currently loaded on the page). What do you think?Wwallacee (talk) 18:21, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
 * You mean the bottom one on this page? It won't be possible to load it to the Commons, I'm afraid, as it's hardly in public domain. While as a second fair-use, it won't be tolerated for the - well, fair-use-related reasons. Although, frankly, my experience in such things is very limited, so if you see the way round this conundrum, go ahead, I agree, the pic is great... And yes, 'wild' sounds so much wilder than mere 'sex')) -- Evermore2 (talk) 18:56, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
 * @User:Evermore2 - That's the one! But is the picture of her currently posted to Wikipedia in public domain? If so, why? Anyway I have to admit that I know even less than you about this, and I myself have never even uploaded a picture to Wikipedia. I suppose that the pictures of her in old age, being from the 1980s, could still be within copyright, is that what you're saying? - But could we just "be bold" (Wikipedia motto) and try it, at the risk of it being pulled? Actually, I don't understand why you say "it won't be tolerated for the fair-use-related reasons". Isn't an encyclopedia article fair use?Wwallacee (talk) 05:46, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
 * These Wikipedia slogans are out there to constantly amaze us. Be bold!? Whoever came up with that must have meant - "be bold when keeping to the rules and exceptionally brave while following guidelines") Having said that, I don't think I've ever brought myself to plod through this in its entirety, preferring to be guided by the 'gut feeling' that a fair-use should be used - a) not where the ‘free’ pic would be available, b) according to the 'rationale' stated, in one article only and preferably only in its infobox... The picture that's in the article, yes, it's in the public domain (under the PD-old license), and it would be quite possible to upload several others from the ~ late-1910s period, except that they are all rather samey. -- Evermore2 (talk) 21:47, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
 * P.S. - I noticed on the website you linked to, that she was supposed to have had a first husband, prior to Ivanov - a certain Popov. Also, on this website I saw that at some point she divorced Ivanov and was all set to marry a rich Frenchman, but in the end remarried Ivanov. Do you think these sources are sufficiently reliable to add in those anecdotes? Or do you know of other sources for them? - Wwallacee (talk) 06:41, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The LiveInternet site - no, it's not reliable, and the circumstances of the divorce/re-marriage, as there described, are unclear, to put it mildly. It is stated there that Ivanov suffered a stroke as a result. Well, in 1953-58 both lived in Yerres, in a poorhouse... Where Ivanov detested heatwaves but insisted on staying on, to make his wife happy, who liked it there, according to this essay, via Rossiyskaya Gazeta. Somehow all this does not gel, needs additional confirmation, so I’d rather we drop this ‘rich Frenchman’ bit, at least for a while… Incidentally, in this RG article Sergey Popov gets mentioned again, as, indeed, her first husband who’d somehow ‘dropped off’ on the family’s way to Petrograd in 1914. They formally divorced only in 1921 and it was to him that she dedicated her book Yard of Wonders (Двор чудес) according to the author, historian Vadim Erlichman. So should you find this detail notable, I think it would be quite safe to mention it. -- Evermore2 (talk) 21:47, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Evermore, apologies for the delay. I have responded to your comments in a new section below.

Fair use of image etc.
Hi Evermore, I am starting a new section to respond to your last few comments and launch further discussion. My own "gut feeling" is that Irina Odoyevtseva is not very well known, certainly in the English-speaking world, and therefore any responsible use of her image and accurate biographical details could only be helpful to her estate (i.e. with regard to that portion her work or images which still falls under copyright). At the moment I don't have time to delve into this more deeply, but I encourage you or anyone else who might be interested to add more pictures and biographical material to this article. I would especially encourage longer citations from her work in English translation, since it is not currently available in English. The main way to access her work in English at the moment is to "Google translate" Russian webpages - such as those linked to at the bottom of her Russian Wikipedia page. - Wwallacee (talk) 09:03, 4 October 2016 (UTC)