Talk:Irish Mob

WikiProject Organized crime
WikiProject Organized crime has been proposed - see link for more information.

Boondock Saints
A question about the list of movies that deal with Irish-American criminals - should "Boondock Saints" (1999) be on that list? It does not technically deal with Irish-American gangsters, but it does deal with Irish-American criminals and is in every way greener that the Emerald Isle. Just a thought. - Mario, 9 February 2006
 * I wouldn't think so, as both of the actual mafia groups in that movie are non-Irish; Russian and Italian, to be specific. -- nae'blis (talk) 20:47, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That's a good point. Should movies featuring only Irish organized crime be listed, instead of Irish-Americans involved against other organized crime organizations ? Also I believe the father was involved in organized crime as a hitman in Boondock Saints if I remember correctly. Should Death to Smoochy be included also ? MadMax 07:07, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Boondock Saints should be taken out as its about Irish Vigilantes, not Irish gangsters. I think the dad is a hitman for the Italian mafia.  I'm taking it out. Rundar 23:48, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Article name
Why is this under Irish mafia and not Irish mob, if that's what they're most commonly called? -- nae'blis (talk) 20:47, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be titled Irish mob. 69.218.181.192 03:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * While I do think the "Irish Mafia" title seems to suggest an offshoot, if not a direct influence of the Italian Mafia, it also seems a bit redundant to name every ethnic criminal group with "Mafia" or even "Mob" as each respective organization operates completely differently. I would suggest Irish (or Irish-American) organized crime. MadMax 22:37, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Irish-American organized crime seemed clunky, but Google and other sources seemed to support "Irish Mob" (still with two capitals), so I made the move tonight, and fixed all redirects. -- nae'blis (talk) 06:07, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I do agree to a certain extent, however would say Jewish-American or Russian-American criminal organizations also be called the Jewish or Russian Mob ? Also how would Irish (as opposed to Irish-American) organized crime be described ? It seems a bit "Americanized" if you will to refer to them as the Mob or Mafia. MadMax 07:03, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Mostly garbage
This article is loaded with misinformation and nonsense. I have a suspicion it was written by a Brit. No one in the U.S. who knows what they're talking about refers to the Irish mob as the "Irish mafia." And Edward O'Neill as a popular member of The Westies? Who the hell is Edward O'Neill?? Check out wikipedia's own fine entry on the Westies (or the 400-pg book by T.J. English) and you will see no mention of anyone named Edward O'Neill.

Also... the K&A crew from Philly is NOT an Irish organized crime group and never has been. There were a few K&A members with vague Irish American heritage, but this does not make them part of the Irish mob. In the definitive book about Irish American gangsters, "Paddy Whacked" by T.J. English, this "gang" isn't even mentioned.

Also... biker gangs have no business being included in an entry that is supposed to be about the Irish mob.

All in all, this entry is below wikipedia standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Angelgabriel (talk • contribs)


 * The K&A gang was a major racketeering group involved in high-profile heists and drug smuggling operations and they were based in a traditionally Irish-American neighborhood. Why wouldn’t this qualify as part of the Irish Mob? And just because T.J. English doesn’t mention it in paddy Whacked doesn’t mean it wasn’t there. He also didn’t mention how Kevin Weeks took over the Winter Hill gang after Bulger, or how Bosco Radonjich took over the Westies after Coonan and Kelly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.199.20.130 (talk • contribs)


 * It might also be worth mentioning that even the most recent books will be out of date as T.J. English's book, which I might add it an impressive read, does leave out certain information and only covers Irish organized crime up to the late 1990s. Of couse takig into content and time restrictions, this can't be helped however in my opinion Paddy Whacked shouldn't be taken as gospel either. By the way Gabiel, I agree with you on the naming convention (as seen in the above conversation) however it appears I'm the the minority. MadMax 21:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

There is some utter nonsense in here... If I knew more about the Irish mob I'd fix the article, but then that's why I wanted to read the darn thing in the first place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.23.195.245 (talk) 03:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The term Mafia is Italian and should not be used in connection with the Irish Mob. --Juliannef 03:02, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and I really have doubts about Melbourne's Irish Catholic working class being especially prone to organised crime. Some of my ancestors were in this group, and I have heard nothing to this effect. There is not even a stereotype. OK, maybe the Morans are Irish Catholics, but that is one (modern) family. Two of the most famous Melbourne gangsters, Snowy Cutmore and Squizzy Taylor, do not appear to have been Catholic. At least I can't find any evidence to that effect. As for the famous Ned Kelly, he was certainly an Irish Catholic, but so were many of the policemen he struggled with. 210.11.146.197 10:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC) (Julian O'Dea).

Jewish-American organized crime and naming conventions
There is currently a debate to discuss moving the article title of Jewish-American organized crime to American Jews in organized crime. The reasoning for this move is to provide what has been refered a less offensive and accusatory title which applies to Talk:African-American organized crime and Talk:Greek-American organized crime.

One point which was brought up was the absence from a seperate article to differenciate between Irish-American organized crime and internationally (as with Italian-American organized crime and the Mafia). I know this has been discussed before, however the issue to split Mafia between its U.S. and international equivalants should be considered. MadMax 07:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal
I suggest that the Irish Mob Wars article be merged into this article. Said article has very little content, and can very easily be merged here, indeed, much of the information is simply repetition. There already exists a subsection about the Winter Hill Gang - Charlestown mob war in the '70s. The rest of the article involves internecine warfare amongst the Westies in New York. Once again, much of this is repetition, and the rest can be integrated easily. Any thoughts? If there is no objection, I will perform the merger later this week. --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  01:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Hearing no objection, the merge has been performed. --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  17:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The Departed
If you look at the Wiki page for The Departed it makes no reference to the Irish Mob, Whitey Bulger or otherwise. In fact it claims the movie was inspired from "Infernal Affairs" from Hong Kong.

So which is it? 72.70.80.98 (talk) 23:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The movie is, in some ways, a remake of Internal Affairs. But, in a very large sense, it is also inspired by the real-life story of collusion between the FBI and the Irish Mob in Boston. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  00:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The movie is a remake of Infernal Affairs (in ALL ways). It was not inspired by the real-life Irish Mob. In my opinion this should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.69.198.227 (talk) 15:11, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You are incorrect. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 22:01, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Great Britain
How about adding a Great Britain section:

The Clerkenwell Crime Syndicate The Noonans Tam McGraw Jimmy Moody Frankie Fraser Yeliab1 (talk) 02:22, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Add it yourself, but only if you have reliable sources for said syndicate. Otherwise, forget it. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  15:39, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

A underground Irish mob film
Last night I tried to add the film What Doesn't Kill You, to the list. However, it was taken down shortly because RepublicanJacobite believed the article did no indicate it was about the Irish mob. I watched the film before hand and can attest. that every criminal character featured in it was Irish. The character of Pat Kelly was indeed a low level Southie mob boss. And the two main character were lowly hoods working for him. Can anyone else attest to this film being worthy? --LokiHavok (talk) 05:43, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Please find a reliable source that says so, the observations of other editors do not count. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 13:57, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Where in the article about A History of Violence does it say anything about the the Irish, let alone them mob. If anything What Doesn't Kill You's article is obviously more of an Irish mob movie in referring to the article. Bythe way what constitutes as a reliable source? Cause if you google -"What Doesn't Kill You" "Irish mob"- I would say you would come back with undeniable sources backing up the statement that this is indeed a movie about the Irish mob. --LokiHavok (talk) 14:31, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Fine, if it's so easy, find one and add it. What are you pissing and moaning about? ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  15:09, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Cause you really don't know what you are talking about. Why remove something you know jack-shit about? When there are more unworthy articles on the page that mention even less about the subject in question, then the one you removed.--LokiHavok (talk) 15:48, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Listen, I am not going to argue with you, especially when you have chosen to be insulting rather than assume good faith. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 16:09, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well it's there now. I re-added the movie as a found a "reliable" source. Check the page to verify if you wish. I also took the liberty of finding a source for A history of Violence So I re-added that as well--LokiHavok (talk) 06:08, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
 * References need to be added here, not just in the film articles. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive' 14:23, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

One Eyed King
RepublicanJacobite ...can you explain to my why the reference, and by extension the film isn't adequate/up to "your standards" enough to be included. By all meanw enlighten me that you seem to be an Irish Mob expert. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.130.166.76 (talk) 04:20, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I have never claimed to be an expert, but I have been around enough to know which sources are adequate and which are not. The ref. you provided was simply a list of films, with no explanatory information whatsoever.  Furthermore the WP article about the film never mentions the Irish Mob. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  04:26, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Half of the movies on the list don't mention "Irish" and "mob" in conjunction. It's common fucking sense. Irish Mob refers to any loose-federation of Irish-American criminals. Or don't you know what article you're editing? Irish Mob isn'ta cohesive thing late the LCN(La Cosa Nostra/American Mafia). It's not fucking rocket science you pompous douche --75.130.166.76 (talk) 13:26, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Common sense has nothing to do with it. Furthermore, your attitude is unhelpful, and I have no intention of discussing the matter with you any further. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  14:37, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Gunrunning for IRA
Doesn't the Irish Mob have a history of running guns for the IRA? Isn't this notable enough for the article? 76.237.237.40 (talk) 00:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source? Nothing can be added to the article without a reliable source. ---  RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  18:59, 18 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Uhmmmm... oh gee...that's right, a whole book was written about this...How the f--- can someone writing an article on the Irish Mob overlook this: Nee, Patrick; Farrell and Richard; Blythe, Michael (2006). A criminal & an Irishman : the inside story of the Boston mob-IRA connection. Hanover, N.H.: Steerforth Press. p. 23. ISBN 9781586421038? Or this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Nee ?

"After Winter was convicted of fixing horse races in 1979 the leadership of the gang fell on James "Whitey" Bulger. Nee responded by relocating to Charlestown, Massachusetts and concentrating his energy on raising money and smuggling guns to the Provisional IRA. He has written that Bulger frequently urged him to cut his links to the IRA, saying that it was too great a risk for not enough profit.

However, Nee remained an occasional associate throughout the years and masterminded a 1984 attempt to smuggle seven tons of assault rifles to the IRA. With Bulger's assistance, the guns were loaded aboard the Valhalla, a fishing trawler from Gloucester, Massachusetts. However, British Intelligence learned of the scheme via an informant in the IRA's Kerry Brigade and the cargo was intercepted by a combined force of the Irish Navy and the Garda Síochána. The Valhalla's crew was arrested by U.S. Customs agents immediately after returning to Gloucester."98.176.233.118 (talk) 06:36, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Boston Winter Hill gang
Under "Recent years" there is a flawed sentence, "During the 1970s and 1980s, the FBI's Boston office was largely infiltrated through corrupt federal agent John J. Connolly, by which Whitey Bulger was able to use his status as a government informant against his rivals (the extent of which would not be revealed until the mid to late 1990s)." The problem is the part "the FBI's Boston office was largely infiltrated through corrupt federal agent John J. Connolly." I was personally heavily involved in exposing this corruption and while Connolly is a convicted killer and is certainly evil, he was just part of a long legacy of FBI corruption that included his predecessor, agent H. Paul Rico. Agent Rico originally developed these people as informants and protected the Winter Hill Gang. There is a great deal more here (See the report "Everything secret degenerates : the FBI's use of murderers as informants : third report," United States. Congress. House. Committee on Government Reform).

I suggest the following replacement to fix the sentence in question: During the 1970s and 1980s, agents from FBI's Boston office permitted Whitey Bulger to use his status as a government informant against his rivals (the extent of which would not be revealed until the mid to late 1990s)." This leaves the reader wondering how the FBI could have permitted this to happen without leading them to falsely believed that Connolly started all of this corruption. DS-survivor (talk) 19:49, 14 September 2011 (UTC)DS-survivor


 * I agree with this compromise language, as I said to DS-survivor after a long exchange on my talk page here. As I said then, it is outside the scope of this article to discuss at any length the corruption in the Boston FBI office.  At the same time, it is not necessary to give the false impression that this corruption can be entirely blamed on John Connolly.  This compromise indicates that corruption was endemic without going into a great deal of unnecessary detail.  Of course, the source provided helps to make the case. ---  RepublicanJacobite  TheFortyFive  00:06, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Merging
The List of Irish American mobsters by era should be merged into the "Irish Mob" article. There is also a third article List of American mobsters of Irish descent which covers listing Irish American mobsters. --Vic49 (talk)  23:29, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Grand Theft Auto IV
The Irish Mob is present in GTA IV. How come it cannot be mentioned on the page?  Tom  US  A   03:47, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Because it is not a notable example. It has been added numerous times in the past and removed as trivial. ---  RepublicanJacobite  TheFortyFive  17:40, 18 September 2011 (UTC)


 * How come it is not a notable example? The Irish Mob holds a strong appearence in the story line of Grand Theft Auto IV. I think it would be appropriate to add to the "In popular culture" seciton of the page. Plus, there are other video games out there that feature the Irish Mob.  Tom  US  A   01:20, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * In what way does it help to illuminate the subject of the article? Just because it exists does not mean we need to mention it.  The example has to help elucidate the subject matter. ---  RepublicanJacobite  TheFortyFive  02:40, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

What about Ireland?
According to the sidebar, and almost by definition, the Irish Mob has to have *some* activities in Ireland. I get that this is primarily about the US-based offshoots, and the Irish have other, perhaps newer crime organizations, but should there not be a section in the "Elsewhere" about any (US-based?) Irish Mob activities in Ireland?--Tim Thomason 00:06, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Only if there's a source, and I have never seen one. There is certainly Irish organized crime, Martin Cahill, "The General," is a well-known modern Irish criminal.  I suppose something could be added here about him.  But, he had no connections, as far as I am aware, to Irish criminals in the US. ---  RepublicanJacobite  TheFortyFive  00:55, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

K&A Gang edit
What exactly do you have a problem with Jacobite? You say the edit is garbage, that it's no good, but you say the reference/sources were fine. Both links said the same thing as the edits. Berkery did run a meth partnership with Ray Martorano, he was the first K&A gang member to run a noteworthy methamphetamine ring and is described as the leader of the gang. Before him there was no history of the NPM trafficking in meth. What more do you want? --LokiHavok (talk) 02:59, 2 August 2012 (UTC)


 * First, there is no reason to have a lot of detail here, when there is a main article for the gang. Second, those additions were not well written, to be completely frank.  Spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. were not up to WP standards.  These are the reasons I reverted you. --- The Old Jacobite The '45  03:15, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll admit my grammar and punctuation wasn't the best. But that's not really too much detail. Ray Martorano's blurb is out of context with the rest of the article. He was with the Scarfo crime family not the K&A gang. He's only relevant in relation to Berkery. Their link was the meth trade. Which I think is pretty neccessary for the article being as it was the groups main racket throughout the 80s.

EDIT: Fixed it.--LokiHavok (talk) 08:34, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Isn't the "construction site" mentioned in the article the Jacob K. Javits Center.
See subject header. The Javits is mentioned in Spillane and Coonan (I think) entries.

The center is famous throughout the world.

Some $ figures would be an extra treat.....

Shlishke (talk) 04:25, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated claims made about the provenance of the Irish Mob
"The Irish Mob is one of the oldest organized crime groups in the United States, in existence since the early 19th century, lead today by the great-great granddaughter of the founder Catriona O'Kane." On the face of it, this claim is absurd. Two hundred years have passed since the early 1800s ('early 19th century'). Using the rule of thumb that a new generation is produced roughly every twenty-five years, four generations are produced per century, and eight generations in two centuries. The great-great granddaughter of an ancestor is just four generations removed from that person, ie a hundred years. It's highly unlikely therefore that the great-great granddaughter of the reputed founder is still alive two hundred years after the time of the founder. Frankly, this sort of nonsense brings disrepute to Wikipedia. I note that the article is full of such unsupported and uncited claims. This article has the potential to be both interesting and informative but at the moment is little more than a collection of unsubstantiated urban legends.124.186.93.5 (talk) 07:24, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Organized crime in Ireland
I've mentioned a lot of people asking for the subtopic Irish organized crime within Ireland in the article Irish Mob. I've created a subtopic like three times, always referring to articles outside wikipedia. Each time this subtopic gets removed because of overlinking, unreliable sources,.... Frankly, I'm getting a bit tired of this. Not only because there's a lot (and I do mean a LOT) of information within the article that doesn't even has references at all. Some information is even plain false. For example: the article claims that some of the criminal organizations in the American South are ethnically Irish and part of the Irish mob. The truth is that they're American Southerners to begin with (descended of Scotch-Irish people) and that they have nothing at all to do with the Irish mob. And that's only the tip of the iceberg. It pains me to see that the load of b******t stays in the article, while information with more credibility ( and most importantly: information readers are actively asking for) is systematically deleted. There are a load of topics I know nothing about, but believe me: if there's one thing I do know my stuff on it's on 'organized crime' ( yes, including Irish organized crime). I spend a lot of time researching everything on organized crime as well as talking to people with knowledge on the topic. Nonetheless, Irish organized crime within Europe is very active while the American 'Irish mob' is rather dormant (unlike what the article leads you to believe). But I guess some users and editors prefer incompetence and cinematic images over facts. Begbiepwns (talk) 19:32, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Irish Mob
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Irish Mob's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Article": From Jimmy Haggerty: "The Haggerty Homicide.; Formal Investigation by Coroner Herrman Evidence by the Eye-Witnesses to the Affray No Verdict Rendered Reddy Admitted to Bail Departure of the Remains for Philadelphia". New York Times. 28 Jan 1871 From Frank Moss (lawyer):  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 07:08, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

There's A Lot Missing on this Page
Personally I would do it myself, but I barely have enough free time to help. But seriously there is a crucial thing missing on the Irish Mob page. And that is the Irish Mob in Ireland. Fortunately I've don a bit of research so I can point to some key figures. However I'm a slow typer and I just don't have time to write any of this, so I would be grateful if someone else did the writing. So here is the list

Dublin And Many More
 * Martin Cahill
 * Martin "Marlo" Hyland
 * Benny Whitehouse
 * Eamon Kelly
 * Mr Big
 * Alan ‘Fatpuss’ Bradley

Limerick (More Street Gangs)
 * Keane-Collopy
 * McCarthy-Dundon

Some of these mobsters have their own page Another Interesting thign is "The suspect has been travelling regularly in the past few years between here and Spain, where he has close contacts among the Irish criminal community on the Costa del Sol." http://mafiatoday.com/tag/north-dublin/

Here are some documentaries as well http://m.natgeotv.com/uk/underworld-dublin-gangland

+ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xkRrmFR9CIM + https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UpXzAjIisGY + https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_gt9CCAj5eY  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.237.125.230 (talk) 14:03, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

220.237.114.40 (talk) 12:32, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

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Propose removing Ireland section
It really makes no sense for this article to have a section about Ireland. The Irish Mob is a term that originates in the US, to differentiate Irish criminal gangs from those of other ethnic groups. Is there any evidence this term is used in Ireland in the way it is in the US? It wouldn't make sense, since there would be no reason to refer to Irish gangsters as Irish within Ireland. A separate article on Irish organized crime would be the proper place for the information that is currently in this article. It is not appropriate here. --- The Old Jacobite The '45 11:44, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Support. Whatever minor organized crime going on in Ireland in the last 20 years is its own thing and really doesn't belong in this article. The real question is, is there enough to start Organised Crime in Ireland? We have McCarthy-Dundon, Keane-Collopy, Rathkeale Rovers, 2015–18 Irish gangland feud and not much else. Blackguard  23:00, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Proof of the Irish kings in Boston
I can’t seem to find proof in police reports of the Irish kings organized crime syndicate operating out of south Boston during the time period of 2013-16. Could someone please provide evidence of their existence by law enforcement or some authority?

History
this article is most importantly missing a general "History" section. great additions here would make significant improvements to the knowledge base of north american organized crime in close direct connection to Europe. Lord saturnus (talk) 15:46, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Self promotion and lack of citations
Under the Boston section of this page I found several examples of completely unverifiable text about people like Mickey "Mean Machine" Murphy and Seán "Irish Car Bomb" McKenna along with some text about a gang called the “Irish Kings”.

I could not verify that those people are real or noteworthy, nor could I verify that gang was real or noteworthy. I suspect this is a problem in other areas of the article, so I wanted to flag this as something for other reviewers to be vigilant of.

Gangsters like fame and attention, which may lead some of them to write/edit their own histories on Wikipedia. Unless they’re noteworthy and verifiable, they don’t belong here. The Real Lisan al Gaib (talk) 01:17, 22 June 2024 (UTC)