Talk:Irish literature/Archive 1

Untitled comment
As I have done a lot of work on the Irish poetry page, I'd like to suggest a possible way forward with this page now.

This page to consist of four short sections: Intro, Poetry, Fiction, Theatre, each outlining briefly the history of the field and the Fiction and Theatre sections linking out to more detailied pages somewhat along the lines of the Irish poetry page. I am happy to draft the poetry section and will try the other two if nobody else wants to take them on. Bmills 16:51, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

broadly agreed
I found the Irish Literature page pretty vacuous and have tried to give it a bit of structure in the last week, but I am not an expert in the field. The set up Bmills describes sounds good to me (and his/her Irish poetry page is excellent). The front page should mention a few key figures for each form, for the benefit of the person who won't go further. It would also be good if the front page could have a stab at saying what is distinctive about Irish literature as a whole - it should state the essence of Irishness in 3 lines. (After that, we can make the UK train system run on time). seglea 16:57, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

first stab
i've put in a bit on poetry, any comments? The real problem is going to be putting together the Irish fiction and Irish theatre pages. Bmills 17:10, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I am now going to see if this page can be removed from Pages needing attention. Bmills 11:29, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Heaney
What happened to Seamus Heaney? Pfortuny 11:33, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

He's in the last paragraph of the Poetry section. Bmills 11:44, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * Apologies. I need an optician asap!!!

Temporal aspect
I was surprised to see that Wikipedia has no article on Old Irish literature, particularly as we have articles on many of its component parts (echtra, immram, Táin Bó Cúailnge, Mael Dúin, Lebor na hUidre, Book of Leinster, metrical Dindshenchas). I wonder if we should create a new section for Old Irish literature here (where the focus is modern – or at least post-Baroque) or make a new article. Then of course, we come to Middle Irish literature (Céitinn etc) which also deserves treatment... Alas that this is so far out of my expertise! QuartierLatin1968 16:45, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Non-English works?
I think it would be interesting to read a small section on works which were published by Irish authors in languages other than English and Irish. I know that Beckett wrote a lot in French, but which other authors also did so? What about the other Irish authors who moved to France or Switzerland, what language(s) did they publish their works in? In what other languages can people read originals of Irish literature?

Thanks in advance if anyone add a few sentences on this. --Gronky 19:27, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

GwernLas (talk) 07:38, 1 July 2015 (UTC)==Oldest literature==

It says on the welsh literature pages that welsh is the third oldest form of literature in Europe which ones older?Celtic Harper (talk) 11:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The whole claim is somewhat outdated. Greek literature certainly dates as far back as the 7th century BC, and possibly to the 8th. Latin literature dates back to at least the 3rd century BC, possibly older. However, it isn't obvious to me that we *know* there were no literary works written in Etruscan - one long Etruscan work sort of survives, and I hear it may be in the process of translation, and we know Roman historians had Etruscan histories as sources. Meanwhile, there are several untranslated languages that have left materials (Linear A, several Iberian scripts) that could conceivably be literary, although the odds are against it.

But let's just assume that Greek really is #1, and Latin really is #2. In that case, neither Welsh nor Irish is #3. To start with, can Gothic make that claim? What survives in Gothic is some Bible translations and a commentary, mostly from the 4th century AD. I have the impression that a commentary isn't enough to justify "literature" in this claim's meaning.

Armenian literature - and Armenia as far as I know remains part of Europe - starts shortly after the creation of the Armenian alphabet in AD 406. (Unlike Welsh and Irish, early Armenian literature includes history-writing.) This would make Armenian #3 if we rule Gothic out.

Georgian literature has much less secure 5th century AD claims; Wikipedia on this literature is inadequate (both "Georgian language" and "Culture of Georgia" cautiously support a very late manuscript's claim to a single 5th century text, but no article carries the story forward), and I'm not at a library to check things for myself. Georgian is provisionally #4 (or #5).

By any reasonable standard, Irish is a good candidate for #5, or if Georgian's claim fails, then #4. (If Georgian and Gothic both win, #6.) We have sixth-century manuscripts with Irish poems written in their margins.

Welsh is, at best, #5, or even #6 or #7. The claims that we have sixth-century Welsh literature are like the claims that we have fifth-century Georgian literature - based on writings surviving in *much* younger manuscripts, that include references to events of the relevant date - but with the difference that we have fewer and worse notated Welsh inscriptions to compare linguistic forms to.

If we reject the Georgian and Welsh early claims, then those literatures still may be high in the rankings, but we start getting into the mistier datings of things like Eddaic poems (Old Norse), Old English texts, and possibly Old High German works too. All of which are in the same boat as Welsh and Georgian, making much younger manuscripts claim older contents. I think it's pointless to try to rank European literatures younger than Irish chronologically with any exactness.

I have verified that as of this posting, "Irish literature" and "Literature of Wales (Welsh language)" are still both making the "third oldest" claim in Wikipedia. Ironically, "Armenian literature" does not make that claim, but provides the evidence to refute the pages that do.

Joe Bernstein joe@sfbooks.com

not a registered Wikipedian, but a longtime researcher into ancient and early mediaeval literatures; see my website at  or my entries in  ed. John Clute and John Grant. I say this not to back up my arguments re #3 above - none of the materials referred to addresses these issues, in fact - but simply to provide some bona fides since I'm *not* registered.

Oh, and just to mess with y'all's heads. Hittite literature was written in the Asiatic part of Turkey, and if you read enough of it you see how much it has in common with literatures like Akkadian and Phoenician (only it's more boring, taken as a whole). But if you've been reading enough of those Semitic literatures, maybe plus Egyptian, and you suddenly turn to Hittite, it feels astonishingly European after all. There are forests; there are mists; people get cold ... 75.165.10.136 (talk) 08:03, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually Joe, even checking the Wikipedia page on Armenia, you'll discover that Armenia tends to be considered as being in Asia rather than Europe by sources such as the UN classification of world regions, which places Armenia in Western Asia; the CIA World Factbook, National Geographic, and Encyclopædia Britannica also place Armenia in Asia. (Although one or two are also quoted as considering it in Europe). Wikipedia accordingly has placed it in the Wikipedia category "Western Asia" not Europe. As for Georgian and Gothic their claims are a bit dubious as you outlined. So there is most certainly a strong argument for Irish being top non-classical. If you think otherwise, you need a source that says something eles is oldest non-classical in Europe. 78.152.252.32 (talk) 00:02, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Whatever the arguments for which European literature follows Greek and Latin into 3rd,4th, 5th etc - it certainly needs a better citation than this article has for Irish literature being claimed as the 3rd oldest - the one used to back up this claim: "Irish has one of the oldest vernacular literatures in western Europe (after Greek and Latin).[1]" is not strong enough and should really be removed - or ideally a more solid academic one than a random website. GwernLas 1st July 2015

Additions and changes
I have augmented the sections on literature in Irish, adding references. (Some of the sources referred to are themselves in Irish, as they are by far the most comprehensive.) I intend to add a section on Irish writing in Latin, as it is a large corpus in its own right and should have its own main article.

I have left the references to Goldsmith and Sheridan, though their careers and cultural interests seem to have been entirely English. The same applies, to a certain extent, even to Swift, who was certainly happiest in England and would have stayed there if he could.

Colin Ryan (talk) 00:55, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

George Bernard Shaw?
Should Shaw be included? I know his career was in England but he w as born and spent his formative years in Dublin.Rwood128 (talk) 21:47, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry. He is there in fact! Rwood128 (talk) 22:29, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Literature of Northern Ireland?
Shouldn't this article acknowledge Ireland's relationship with Britain prior 1922 and include authors from Northern Ireland? The current article seems to be just about the literature of the Irish Republic, and literature from that region prior to partition, not Ireland as a whole. Rwood128 (talk) 22:15, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The first sentence implies that this article covers the island. Information on developments in Northern Ireland should be incorporated into the text - the list format, which merely reproduces an already existing list, is IMHO not adequate. Hohenloh+ 18:35, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

While I agree with the point that you are making -- that lists should not be substituted for discussion of writers from N.I. within the text -- I still feel that the addition of the list improved the article, especially by drawing attention to the way the article tends to ignore the existence of the literature of Northern Ireland. The fact that it is an already existing list doesn't invalidate its usefulness in this article, surely. I added the list in an attempt to encourage the expansion of the article. I hoped that this list might help potential editors do this, including myself, possibly. Given the achievement of Irish writers over the centuries, I was surprised to find this undeveloped article, and that is before I noted the absent of most writers from N.I. Rwood128 (talk) 20:18, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, I gathered that was the intention, and the article does need improvement - thanks for flagging this. The soonest I could make a start on revising the article to include NI writers would be next week. Hohenloh+ 12:59, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. In the end I overcame my lethargy and started working on something. A section on N.I. is almost ready.Rwood128 (talk) 15:24, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Headings and dates
It isn't really clear to what periods some of the headings refer. The section 'Modern writing', for example, includes writers from before the Modern period (before 1800), and seems also to be used for the period after 1900. Would anyone object to changes? For example, three main headings, as follows:

Rwood128 (talk) 18:25, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The Middle Ages: 500-1500
 * Early Modern period: 1500-1800
 * The Late Modern period: from 1800


 * Great work, Rwood128! I've just made some additions to the section on the Middle Ages. As it stands now, the medieval section is kind of a mess. The information is acceptable, but I think it desperately needs sorting into subsections on poetry, prose, the epic sagas, Hiberno-Latin, whatever. Also, as the medieval period represents 2/3 of Irish literary history, the whole medieval section needs dramatic expansion to avoid undue weight on modernity in the overall article. I'll work on the medieval section as time permits, but I hope more capable hands than I give it attention soon. Rinne na dTrosc (talk) 18:57, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Need for citations
I recently added additional material on 20th-century Irish poetry in English, editing material from the Irish poetry article. While the original lacked citations it looks to be of good quality. Feeling guilty I've since added a citation banner. I trust that this is acceptable and that the addition is an improvement, despite the lack of citations. If Wikipedia is a work in progress a flawed improvement seems better than none. Rwood128 (talk) 13:56, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Good job! Hohenloh+ 20:29, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

No women?!
Why are there no women pictured in the info box? Plenty of Irish women writers.-MacRùsgail (talk) 16:04, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Just a bump to this after seven years...plenty of great Irish women writers writing both in Irish and in English! IRideBikes25 (talk) 00:41, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Section discussing early literature needs revision
Irish literature is problematic. As written, it belongs in the Irish mythology article, as the "cycles" discussed are not literary works or collections, but separate mythological "settings" that are not related to literature. 180.221.235.82 (talk) 08:42, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Welsh model on Wikipedia
For Welsh literature, there is a disambiguation between Welsh literature in English and Welsh-language literature. I propose that the same be done with this article. As it stands, the eight men pictured at the top of the article are all Anglophone writers and the article itself is contained in the "English literature" navigation box. Splitting would solve this problem. 21:33, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

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Delete The most remarkable Irish contributions to literature section
The section The most remarkable Irish contributions to literature contains no citations or references but appears to be merely the editors personal opinion. As it is purely subjective it has no place in an encyclopedic article and should be deleted. Hochithecreator (talk) 17:07, 16 February 2020 (UTC)