Talk:Irish orthography/Archive 1

I have begun moving my Irish orthography page from http://www.ling.uni-potsdam.de/~green/gaeilge/spelpron.htm (where I can no longer update it) to Wikipedia. This is my own stuff I'm moving, so no worries about copyright!

Difficult words
Could someone be so kind as to add notes about pronunciation of difficult/non-standard/plain confusing words such as "duit"? Thank you.--Ag Foghlaim 15:45, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * duit follows the rules laid out on this page. Broad d is pronounced, ui is pronounced , and slender t is pronounced : duit is pronounced . --Angr/undefined 16:03, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you for taking time to answer this. Your explanation covers one of the pronunciation versions I found elswhere.  However, other sources recommend to pronounce initial "d" as "g" (in a way Ukrainian "г" is pronounced) or "gw".  This makes much less sense as far as the rules go (saying "d" is, of course, more logical), but it is also so much easier to pronounce than a broad "d" followed by "i" followed by a slender "t" as per your recommendation.  Would it be terribly incorrect if one is to say ?  Is such pronunciation specific only to some particular region of Ireland and considered incorrect elswhere?  Again, thank you for your willingness to answer my not-so-smart questions!--Ag Foghlaim 18:37, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I see the problem. There are dialects of Irish where the word dhuit (the lenited form) is used in place of duit, so you have to use the sound of broad dh. So the alternate pronunciation is, not . Even more confusingly, some people use the dhuit pronunciation while using the duit spelling. This is part of the reason why the page says "the statements on this page must be interpreted as tendencies, not hard and fast rules". There are too many exceptions and too many dialects for them all to be listed here, though. If you follow this guide and pronounce words the way they're spelled, you'll always be understood, but some Irish speakers themselves will pronounce them differently. --Angr/undefined 18:52, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Thank you; knowing this helps a lot. As long as what I am saying is understood, it is fine.  It is not like I am going to have no accent if I follow these (or any other) rules :)  It's just that it is insanely hard to pronounce a broad consonant followed by a slender vowel (as in ) without "slendering" the consonant or "broading" the vowel.  No matter how hard I am trying, all I can produce is a sound that's more like a Russian "ы" (a sound, which, ironically, learners of Russian have most trouble with), instead of "i".  Oh well, I'll keep trying.  As they say in Ireland, taithí a dhéanann máistreacht.  As a side note, adding sound files pronunciation of the words given as examples would be a great addition to this (already fabulously detailed) article.--Ag Foghlaim 20:34, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Getting the broadness/slenderness of the consonant right is what's most important. If the vowel quality approaches that of Russian "ы", that doesn't matter at all. As discussed on Irish phonology, the quality of short vowels in Irish depends entirely on the broadness or slenderness of the neighboring consonants. As for sound files, that would be great, but I can't make them, because (1) I don't have a microphone and (2) I'm not a native speaker. --Angr/undefined 20:51, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Another question
I have another question, this time regarding the content of the article. The Irish People lessons indicate that the word "cailín" (girl) has the second syllable stressed. This leaves the "ai" combination in the first syllable unstressed, which, according to the rules in the article (outlined on the "ai (unstressed)" line), would lead to the word being pronounced as. The example given in the "í" line gives the pronunciation of. Is this a typo in the article (incorrect transcription) or in the Irish People lessons (stress shown incorrectly)? Or, possibly, am I missing something else here?--Ag Foghlaim 14:55, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
 * It's a dialect difference. In the Munster dialect, the word cailín has stress on the second syllable, but in the other dialects it has stress on the first syllable. Since this page is not specific to Munster pronunciation, you have to look at the "ai (stressed)" line. In Munster, the stress is shifted to the second syllable, but the pronunciation of the "ai" stays the same. --Angr/undefined 15:44, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Again, thank you, Angr. Your answers were extremely helpful.--Ag Foghlaim 17:13, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Exception?
The word tuirseach in the "ui (stressed)" section is shown to be pronounced with a broad "r". The "r" section says that "r" is always broad in certain combinations, but "rs" is not one of them. Is the word tuirseach an exception then, or should the "r" in this word really be slender?--Ag Foghlaim 21:13, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * No, tuirseach isn't an exception. "R" is broad in the combination "rs", and I've updated the page accordingly. Thanks for catching that! --Angr/undefined 21:47, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Ah, I knew that out of nine "errors" I caught on this page at least one should be real :) The other eight turned out to be exceptions and my lack of attention to details, of course.  Thanks again for your willingness to help.--Ag Foghlaim 21:58, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Missing combination?
Why is the "ió" combination (as in raidió) not listed? Are the "i" and the "ó" pronounced separately in such cases? Thanks!--Ag Foghlaim 21:55, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, they're pronounced separately. Raidió is a three-syllable word. --Angr/undefined 06:05, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Amh(a(i)) question
I noticed that all of the examples for this combination have -amh(a(i)) in the middle of the words. Should there be a distinction between -amh(a(i)) in the middle/beginning of a word and in the final position? Apparently, words "samhradh" and "léamh" are pronounced differently. Are there any words at all that end in -amh, where -amh is not pronounced /au/? How's the word "neamh" pronounced? Thanks!--Ag Foghlaim 20:52, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, the rule given is for word-internal -amh(a(i))-. Léamh is and neamh- is . -amh as an unstressed syllable at the end of a word is pronounced  in Munster and South Connacht but  in North Connacht and Donegal, e.g. fealsamh  'philosopher'. --Angr (t·c) 07:07, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Etymology of "uncial"
... so called because each letter was usually written one inch high

I have removed the above as the etymology of litteræ unciales is unclear, and is discussed more fully at uncial, already linked to in the present article. -- Picapica 22:24, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

typo
Great stuff! I can finally make sense of all this. Thanks!

One typo, tho: you have "uai 	/uə/ 	(C)_C", without the final palatalization. kwami 02:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
 * sofixit :p --Angr (t·c) 07:53, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Double letters
The article at this time does not address the issue of double letters (e.g., "bainne", "balla). How are those pronounced?  Would "bainne" be  or ?  "Balla":  or ?&mdash;Ag Foghlaim 21:29, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
 * ll, nn, and rr are in the consonant chart in the same rows with l, n, and r respectively. There is no phonetic consonant gemination in Irish, so bainne is and balla is . But these are the so-called "tense sonorants" which can have weird effects: in some dialects a short vowel before them is pronounced long or diphthongized in a closed syllable, so that words like ceann and poll have long vowels or diphthongs. In other dialects ll and nn are pronounced differently from l and n, with broad ll and nn being dental, slender ll and nn being palatal or alveolo-palatal, and (both broad and slender) l and n being alveolar. All very complicated! --Angr ( tɔk ) 08:14, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * This, of course, is more than I wanted to hear :) Still, do you think it can be added to the article when you have time?  A definition of a "closed syllable" would also help; I, for example, am having helluva time trying to determine where syllables end.  E.g., rules say that "a" is pronounced as long  before syllable-final "ll".  I imagine it would apply to a word like "caill", but would it also apply to its verbal noun "cailleadh"?  For me, its natural that the syllables here are  and, but I do not really know for sure how it is supposed to be.--Ag Foghlaim 20:13, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * A closed syllable is one with a syllable coda. In general, consonants only go into the syllable coda if they have to: when there's no other sound that follows them (as in caill) or when a consonant follows them with which they could not build a well-formed syllable onset (as in gallda, where the syllables have to be because  cannot be an onset cluster. --Angr ( tɔk ) 20:21, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It took me a while to figure out (I am not a linguist, and the only detailed examples in the wikiarticles you linked to were for Chinese, which I do not know), but I think I now understand. Thank you.  I still, however, believe, that the inclusion of a section on double letters would benefit this article (and, possibly, one on Irish phonology as well).--Ag Foghlaim 16:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Th
The article is currently mum about the "th" combination in words such as "fearthainn". I assume it should fall under the generic rule (so the word is pronounced ), but the transcription in my textbooks omits the  sound altogether (giving the pronunciation as .  I suspect that's a dialect perk, but would appreciate a confirmation.--Ag Foghlaim 21:30, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * You have textbooks that give a phonetic transcription? The only one I know of is Mícheál Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish, which uses Cois Fhairrge Irish, which doesn't have any word-internal sounds. --Angr/talk 06:02, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * No, of course not; sorry if my comment was misleading. I generally ignore textbooks without proper phonetic transcription, but with Irish one is happy to get one's hands on any kind of textbook.  I am using the Ó Siadhail's Learning Irish in addition to the Irish language series from Irish People (http://www.leyline.org/cra/languages/), which uses a ridiculous parody for transcription and is typo-ridden, but is otherwise the second best course (after Ó Siadhail) I've been able to find.  "Fearthainn", in particular, is "transcribed" as "FAR-in" (there is no broad/slender distinction in their "system", but  would normally be rendered as "h").
 * So, returning to the original question&mdash;is the article missing one "th" rule, or is the pronunciation discrepancy due to the dialect differences? Thanks!--Ag Foghlaim 15:43, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Rats, I was hoping to distract you by changing the subject. The answer is, I dunno. Angr/talk 16:05, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Darn, am I screwed now or what. The ironic thing is that the only tape I have uses "báisteach" exclusively (but hopefully "fearthainn" will be used in later lessons; I haven't progressed that far yet).  Anyway, thanks again!--Ag Foghlaim 16:33, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * By the way, the example in the "r, rr" section (oirthear=) suggests that "th" is pronounced. Do you remember where that example came from?--Ag Foghlaim 16:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Well if you'd like the opinion of an Irish person learning Irish, I would generally pronounce the "h". Another opinion is that I hate my own language because so it's so irregular, but that's irrelevant.--Heggy 23:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, how can you hate Irish for that?! Irregularity is the very thing that makes this language so interesting!  Anyway,  thanks for the tip.  You wouldn't by any chance have sources to back this up?  Also, what dialect are you using?--Ag Foghlaim 18:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I would give 'fearthainn' as [ɸʲær̻iɲ] as where one has th and a consonant prior to it, the consonant gets devoiced. The 'ea' digraph is to show the low front vowel 'ah' sound, even if this seems divergent from many of the usual rules (it is rare, none the less). I will post references later.

Ui
The guidelines indicate that "ui" is pronounced as before "rt". Does that include "rth", as in uirthi? How is the latter pronounced: or ? Is there a general rule? Thanks!--Ag Foghlaim 16:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Missing rule?
Is there a rule for the nc combination; similar to the ng rule? I keep running into examples where nc is pronounced, but I am still not sure if its a dialect perk or a genuine rule. Examples include words uncail (which Ó Siadhail trascribes as ) and An Fhrainc (for which I have no transcription, so I don't know if it's or ). With the latter, I can't distinguish what's being pronounced on the tapes that come with the Ó Sé's Teach Yourself Irish course--they are speaking too darn fast.--Ag Foghlaim 16:58, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yup, I missed that. nc is always or ; I've corrected the page. Angr/ talk 17:49, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Great, thanks a lot. Could you please also take a look at the questions I posted in the two sections directly above this one?  I asked those questions when you were on a break, so I am not sure if you've seen them.--Ag Foghlaim 18:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I saw them. I hoped you'd forget about them, because they require actual research to answer. ;-) Angr/ talk 19:23, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, once I spot something like that, I don't forget. That's a part my approach to learning new things.  Tough luck, eh? :)  Actually, it's kind of hard to forget about it when uirthi, for example, is now in pretty much every other excersise that I do.  Anyway, if you can get to it whenever (I think it's a safe bet to say that it is something you'd eventually be willing to research to satisfy your own curiosity, if nothing else), that would be great, but I very well understand that it may not happen any time soon.&mdash;Ag Foghlaim 19:41, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe it is /urhi/. --Heggy 23:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Rule applicability in compound words
The article states that "r" is always pronounced broad word-initially. Is that rule also applicable in compound words? For example, since "r" is broad in ríomhaire, would it still be broad in micriríomhare? Thanks!--Ag Foghlaim 15:35, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep. The only place it isn't true that I know of (at least in the Larchanúint; I don't know to what extent this is true in real spoken Irish) is when word-initial [r] is spelled fhr. When followed by orthographic i or e, fhr is slender [r'], e.g. fhreasta [r'ast@]. Angr (talk • contribs) 15:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, that makes sense. If it is spelled fhr, then "r" is technically no longer word-initial.  I can only wish that real Irish were as logical as the people who devised Larchanúint wanted it to be.  Anyway, thanks again for coming to my rescue!--Ag Foghlaim 15:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, phonologically the "r" is word-initial, which is why I mentioned it. It's actually an interesting problem from the point of view of Optimality theory: if Irish has a high-ranking constraint against slender [r'] in word-initial position, what allows [r'ast@]? (Answer, presumably faithfulness to [f'r'ast@], but it's still an interesting case of a constraint that's almost-but-not-quite-always unviolated in a language.) Angr (talk • contribs) 16:18, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

The opening
"Irish orthography has the reputation of being very difficult to learn and of bearing only a tenuous relationship to pronunciation. This reputation is not entirely undeserved; the statements on this page must be interpreted as tendencies, not hard and fast rules. Among the vowels, there are exceptions to virtually every letter/sound correspondence listed below."

I take serious issue with this opening. Pronunciation is different to how it's done in English, but I can pronounce pretty much any Irish word correctly on seeing it. Any suggestions on how to fix this opening? EamonnPKeane 10:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Can you pronounce any Irish word correctly on seeing it because you've already learned it, or even words you've never encountered before? If you had never learned the word sniodh, would you know how to pronounce it just from the spelling? Angr (talk) 11:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Irish Alphabet
When I started school (1960 Scoil Brìd, Dublin) we learned the old alphabet and all our textbooks were in the old script, including the buaillte.

By the time I did my Leaving Cert (1973) all the books were in standard English letters, with 'h's for lenited letters. The justification for the change, as I recall it, was so standard typewriters could be used, not because of problems at printers.

I think the changeover was in 1966 but that is just my recollection, I don't have a reference.

This was an important change and I think it should be dealt with here. Anyone have any references?


 * I think it must have been much earlier than 1966. I associate it in my mind with the spelling reform of 1948, and I've certainly seen linguistics works discussing Irish from much earlier than 1966 where the Irish is written in Antiqua with aitches instead of buailtí. User:Angr 14:39, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

aː vs. ɑː, ɒː, or ɔː
It seems that some words that should, according to the article have an aː are pronounced in English with an ɑː, ɒː, or ɔː (e.g. Gardaí, Tánaiste). The words otherwise sound Irish (dental t and d, etc.) Are these variations in Irish pronunciation or is this an English thing? (Watch RTÉ News for examples: ).

(This was also posted at Talk:Irish phonology)

-  AjaxSmack    01:11, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Answered at Talk:Irish phonology. Angr 04:25, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

th rule
I would give 'fearthainn' as as where one has th and a consonant prior to it, the consonant gets devoiced. The 'ea' digraph is to show the low front vowel 'ah' sound, even if this seems divergent from many of the usual rules (it is rare, none the less). I will post references later.

I have used IPA, and its not showing..anyway the h is not pronounced, it devoices the previous consonant. Same thing happens in the conditional tense for 1st conjugation verbs in comparision to the imperfect tense when there is a voiced/devoiced possible (like b vs p). The imperfect is the 'unmarked' one (perhaps not the correct use of the term), so if it has a devoiced consonant, the imperfect and conditional tenses can end up been the same for that verb


 * The IPA you used shows up for me. If you're using Internet Explorer, you have to put IPA transcriptions inside a template thus:  for it to display properly. I've done this for your example above. Does it display properly for you now? —Angr 05:14, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

IPA add
Yep! Works now. Will use again if needs be

Verbal adjective
I'm a little confused. It says in the article that -th- in verbal adjectives is "silent but makes a voiced obstruent voiceless." What about when there is no obstruent to make silent? Would reoite be pronounced (since it's from the infinitive reoigh ),, , or what? Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 03:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * reoite doesn't have th, it has t. It's pronounced . —Angr 05:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

sniodh
sniodh -you would count the braod dh as silent, or give it a semi-vowel, even [j]

s would be broadd or slender, depending on you keeping the clashing coronals agreement or not

n slender and dental

i short

sni or snidh would be more modern spellings.

The orthography is only hard if the reader insists on ignoring the broad and slender difference

159.134.221.58 23:05, 24 March 2007 (UTC) James


 * Etymologically, the dh of sniodh was broad, but nowadays it isn't pronounced at all. s is slender (pronounced similarly to English "sh") in this word. —Angr 11:13, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

response to sniodh
I was trying to represent the different permutations, in case it an issue somewhere. Slender s would be expected. I've heard [j] at the end in Donegal, zero elsewhere.

I had not thought of it, but the coronal rules, I think is not an issue in word initial position (trí, for example), but is medially and finally. Also, in sandhi between words.

159.134.220.189 21:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)James

Pronunciation
I have a great deal of problems with this article, I must say. Here is just one example of something that has left me scratching my head:

"In the imperfect, conditional, and imperative, -dh is pronounced /tʲ/ before a pronoun beginning with s-:"

Uh, in Cois Fhairrge and Conamara, perhaps, but in my dialect (Muskerry/West Kerry) this is simply untrue, and untrue of Munster as a whole. I also doubt seriously whether this applies to Ulster either. I suspect much of the material for the article has been taken from Micheal O'Siadhail's (sic!!) Learning Irish, which, uh, is not actually about learning the Irish language in general but about learning Cois Fhairrge Irish from Co Galway. I think it unwise to have an article on Irish orthography and pronunciation and simply focus on one dialect as being the default form of the language. The most common pronunciation of each particular word in the other two main dialects should be given alongside the Galway pronunciation. An Muimhneach Machnamhach 20:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The current state of the article reflects something of a compromise between the two sources cited: Ó Baoill's Larchanúint and Ó Siadhail (whose name is spelled correctly in the article; I don't know what you mean by "Micheal O'Siadhail's (sic!!)"). I'm working on a greatly expanded version encompassing all three dialects at User:Angr/Irish orthography, as well as two subpages that will become necessary: User:Angr/Irish bh and mh and User:Angr/Irish dh and gh. —Angr 15:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I appreciate the hard work you've put into the article. Actually, I always thought Ó Siadhail wrote his own name with no accents and with an apostrophe after the "Ó" as a kind of personal affectation. Or perhaps I'm thinking of a brother of his. I'll have a look at his other book Modern Irish tonight. An Muimhneach Machnamhach 17:48, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Both Learning Irish and Modern Irish spell his name Mícheál Ó Siadhail. —Angr 18:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You're right. Although, I have definitely seen his name (or perhaps a relative's?) spelt without any accents and an apostrophe in a context where one could be fairly sure it wasn't just due to anglophone ignorance of Irish spelling. I'll have a look around. An Muimhneach Machnamhach 13:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, Ó Siadhail's home page at www.osiadhail.com has 'Micheal O'Siadhail' all the way through, even in the signature at the bottom of the page. I know he writes poetry in English as well as in Irish, so this might be for the benefit of English speakers. An Muimhneach Machnamhach 19:13, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It sure looks like he uses the spelling "Micheal O'Siadhail" for his poetry and "Mícheál Ó Siadhail" for his academic works on the Irish language. What a dumb decision. If he thinks English speakers can't handle the spelling "Mícheál Ó Siadhail", he should use "Michael O'Shiel". English speakers who know no Irish are still going to be tongue-tied by the spelling "O'Siadhail" and will probably render it or something. (Sort of the way a character in Halloween III pronounces Samhain as .) —Angr 19:30, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Just popped into the bookshop down the street and had a look at Learning Irish. The CDs accompanying the book are produced by Mícheál Ó Siadhail but the copyright to the photos on the cover belongs to Michael StMaur Shiel. The same person perhaps or just a coincidence that the names resemble each other? And don't get me started on non-Irish speakers mispronouncing Irish names! I often get phone calls from people surprised that I'm not a woman even though I don't have a woman's name! An Muimhneach Machnamhach 11:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What, are they interpreting "An" as the name "Anne"? —Angr 16:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Very funny! No, I won't mention my first name, if you don't mind. Ireland and the Irish speaking community are small enough. Someone is sure to either know me or know of me and I like the anonymity that Wikipedia gives. In fact I was just discussing Samhain with my Danish housemate the other day and he too thought it was 'Sam Hain' before I pointed out the correct pronunciation. I also notice that many English speakers, particularly non-Irish people, have big trouble with Ogham, pronouncing it as /ɑgəm/ rather than as /o:m/. Oxford only has the first, incorrect, pronunciation. An Muimhneach Machnamhach 19:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

&larr; Yes; I've heard that when two Irish people meet, the first thing they do is find out who they know in common; the whole island is no more than two degrees of separation away from each other. (I've heard it's like that in Iceland, too.) As for ogham, I always pronounce it /ɑgəm/, even though I know that's not the Irish pronunciation. For me, it's just the standard English pronounciation. —Angr 05:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm always surprised at how I either know people or know someone who has worked with them or is related to them wherever I go in Ireland, this is especially so among Irish speakers as we are obviously a small minority in Ireland. The only people I've ever heard pronounce ogham as /ɒgəm/ are non-Irish people. To be honest, it makes me cringe inside whenever I hear it that way but I tell myself that these people genuinely are unfamiliar with the language and know no better. I try and correct them in a non-confrontational manner if I can. An Muimhneach Machnamhach 19:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Bí churamach as na búailte 7 na sínte fada!
Although there is a short discussion about búaite & sínte fada in the Gaeilge article, I came here looking for more, only to find that is taken as read. Could someone write a short paragraph please? (and maybe introduce the Irish ampersand too?). --Red King (talk) 16:31, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've added sections on diacritics and punctuation. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 19:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Can I request info on capitalization (also [in wikimedia])? Rules for: names of days of the week, months, seasons, demonyms, languages; proper adjectives; Minor Words in the Middle of Titles. The síneadh fada is retained on capitalized letters, and the urú seems to be lowercase even in ALLCAPS. jnestorius(talk) 22:45, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't have any published information on capitalization; all I can go on is my own observations, which obviously can't go into the article. Namely: capitalization is much as in English: days of the week, months, demonyms, languages, and proper adjectives are capitalized; seasons are not; I have no idea if Irish uses title case like English or if it uses sentence case in titles like French and German; you're right about síneadh fada on capitals and about urú in all caps (it also applies to the prefixed h and t, which also remain small even in all caps: FÁILTE GO hÉIREANN). —Angr If you've written a quality article... 20:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I got some stuff in Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí, but that's not the most systematic or thoroughgoing treatment one might wish for. jnestorius(talk) 00:18, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm unhappy with the wording "Tironian et ⁊ which is generally used to abbreviate the word agus "and", much as the ampersand is generally used to abbreviate the word and in English." The word agus appears as agus far more often than as ⁊.  The same is true of and in English versus &.   My impression that ⁊ is used less in Irish than & is in English.  Apart from the pay-and-display notice in the image in the article, the only signage I've seen it on is in Gaelic script, now confined to Olde Worlde touristy signs.  Printed matter doesn't use Gaelic script or ⁊ any more.  Some people use it in handwriting, though it wasn't taught at school in my experience.  What is true is that & is rarely used in Irish; maybe computers have forced it in the absence of a key/ASCII for ⁊; though one sees 7rl for ⁊rl (⁊rl for etc is itself worth mentioning). jnestorius(talk) 00:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think my original wording of "which is used to abbreviate the word" is best, as it does not imply anything about frequency: it simply explains what ⁊ means. I've added a section on abbreviations and explained both "⁊rl." and ".i." as neither of them is terribly transparent. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 17:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, guys. Great work and I for one have learned something new.  (oh and by the way - the 7 is a tongue in cheek because that's what we used to call it (with malice aforethought) "seacht rud eile" --Red King (talk) 20:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank You
Thank you to whomever (plural of 'whomever' is?) wrote this. I have been looking for an explanation of the buailte online and I came upon this. You are all making a contribution to knowledge. Le gach dea-ghuí. Dunlavin Green (talk) 19:22, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * As the primary contributor to this page, and on behalf of the other editors of this page, you're welcome and we're glad you like it. (And the word you want is "whoever".) +Angr 20:42, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

_ _  _

I wanted to give you another thank you for the picture of the "Pay & Display" sign. I looked everywhere trying to figure out why there would occasionally be a 7 stuck in the middle of an Irish sentence. Now I know. Ramseyman (talk) 01:03, 9 November 2011 (UTC)