Talk:Irish people/Archive 2

Vandalism
TOM KNEAFSEY is a potatoe-munching irish man, and jared macallum eats mookie stinks through a funnel.

removed it 70.190.208.138

Related Ethnic Groups
an anonymous ip added ascandinavians to related ethnic groups, a user called epf then changed that to icelanders and norweigens,

norwiegens and scandinavians are genetically very different to the irish, icelanders are much closer due to the mainly female slaves that were taken to iceland from ireland and scotland.

the article used to contain just icelanders as related ethnic groups which is correct. anonymous user also removed basques from related ethnic groups, and the basques have been proven to be very genetically similar the the irish on the y-chromosomes and to a lesser extent on mtdna.

Do we need these related ethnic groups articles. ethnicity means many different things to different people, The irish are bilogically different norwiegens yet many place names come in ireland are of norwiegen viking origin and they did leave a small genetic legacy, yet the basques are far more genetically similar to the irish due to paleolithic humans having a strong representation in ireland.

Is ethnicity genetic, cultural, linguistic or more than one of these definitions. Its too confusing as some groups have much closer links in one type of ethnic link than others (eg. basqes genetically, norwiegens place names and documented history).

The english people article doesnt have a related ethnic groups article, so in my opinion neither should the irish people article or any other article to dowith peoples--Globe01 15:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC).

I strongly believe we should remove related ethnic groups from this article, In what terms are groups related, Blood, genetics, biology, culture, history, language etc. Endzerbrit agrees with me on this ( read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Germans#Related_Ethnic_Groups ).

Most peoples articles dont have related ethnic groups such as the english, germans and others. --Globe01 17:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

If we must we could have related cultural groups, related linguistic groups, related genetic groups even, related ethnic groups is a ridiculous term, inaccurate, ambigious and uninformative.--Globe01 17:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The Irish are closely related to the Basques, Basques should be put into the 'related groups' infobox. They look the same on a Y chromosome diversity map. The high frequency of r1b and the evidence that shows they both have a large percentage of their populations are classified in the most ancient blood group (O) and the negative rhesus factor that is seen nowhere else in Europe makes it pretty clear.

Also, the article doesn't give any indication of the origins of the irish, whether they are an indo-european people or what not. To my understanding they arrived with the rest of indo-european migrants, and are the genetic isolation has resulted in their gene pool being very homogenous and not effected by population movements, etc. But I don't think we can ever know because we don't know the origins of the basques or their NON-indo european language. Does anyone know where the Irish came from?? - Clown57

yes I am in agreement with you, a related ethnic groups article is ridiculous, it is entirely point of veiw or opinion as to which countries or ethnic groups fit it and this goes against wikipedia's standards of having articles with out point of veiws made by users, just facts. Why is one users opinion of a related ethnic group more valuable than anothers. I think we should delete related ethnic groups from the irish peoples article, its irritating as its completely useless, the article already mentions the gaelic language, the genetics of the irish people and the history and some of the invaders that are recorded in histroy books. Therefore a related ethnic groups article is confusing. In what ways are norweigens similar to the irish bilogically, genetically, linguistically or culturally. Hardly any. How is a reader to indentify if an ethnic link to a group with the irish is based on genetics, language, culture or more than one of these? Its stupid, fine have a related languages section, culture section but a related ethnic group section doesnt make any sense what so ever. Wikipedia aims to make articles anything but confusing, related ethnic groups is making all peoples pages confusing!!--Globe01 16:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Globe. He has my support. Veritas et Severitas 01:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

How about we replace related ethnic groups with something like "recent ancestry", we could include norwiegen vikings in there, with celts and any other groups that are known to have invaded ireland. To me that makes much more sense as the Irish as far as I am aware dont claim any ethnic link with norwiegens yet they still share part of their ancestry with them and inevitably some culture with them even it they make no claims to that.--Globe01 11:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I do not know. In fact, you know, in some peoples articles the related ethnic group section is being just scraped altogether because often it is controversial and people do not seem to come to agreements. In any case my position is the followig:

1. We stick to clearly uncontroversial peoples. In this case Britons.

2. We scrap the section. Veritas et Severitas 17:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm up for scraping related ethnic groups in all articles "controversial" or not, listing historical invaders in a section is fine has far as i can see. Eg the anglo saxons came from north germany and frisland but the english dont claim any ethnic likns to germans but people think that they would do just because the anglo saxons came from there. since the anglo saxons invaded the 2 areas have diverged significantly aswell as linguistically and even ancestrally. In conclusion we should list all historical incaders in peoples sections instead of having related ethnic groups.--Globe01 17:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposal: Rename to Irish Men, since there are no pcitures of women in the info box
Shame, shame, a millions times shame. Every time I've brough up the fact that women are sytematically under-represented in this article, it gets ignored. I've tried to add pictures and links to women, and they get deleted. Shame! THE ARTICLE REEKS OF SEXISM!!! Kevlar67 01:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok fine, Source some famous Irish women and some pictures of the can be linked in the article with info on them. I agree with you on this btw and so do many other people probably who arent sexist but just didnt have their conciousnesses raised about sexism up and till now. --Globe01 17:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * See commons:Category:People of Ireland to find images of Irish people that can be used to illustrate the article. Jkelly 17:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay then:
 * http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Mary_McAleese.jpg
 * http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Stbrigid.jpg
 * http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Ladygregorypic.jpg
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Robbo.jpg

That's a start, surely there must be others? Kevlar67 21:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * So, I propose we make a new graphic that has an equal number of men and women, using men from the current graphic and women from the above list (and/or other women people suggest in the very near future). I would be willing to make the new graphic.  How many people would we like to include?  ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 00:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Some more possibilities:
 * I'm looking for a good image of Gráinne Ní Mháille, but this one is too small.
 * https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Image:Maudgonne.jpg

How about five women and five men? And all colors desaturated so the modern ones don't stand out from the old black and white ones? So, which men do we drop? ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫ ♦ ♫ 01:18, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * So, I made a new graphic based on the old one, but now 50/50 women and men. Clockwise, from top left, Jonathan Swift, Augusta, Lady Gregory, Henry Grattan, Mary McAleese, Brigid of Kildare, W B Yeats, Maud Gonne, George Bernard Shaw, Oscar Wilde, Mary Robinson. Since no one has objected here, I went ahead and boldly substituted it for the all-male version.  Check it out and let me know what you think! Slán!  ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 22:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm in favour of the 5 men / 5 women split, but I think some of the choices of the 10 people aren't great. Fpr example do we really need two female presidents in the picture of 10 Irish people? Countess Markeviz for example may be a good substitute. Also I think we've too many dramatists/writers/etc in the ten.  Perhaps we could add someone like Bobby Sands or maybe a sports star, like Pat Spillane r DJ Carey for example. Derry Boi 22:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Derry, I looked for Public Domain pics of Countess Markiewicz, Helena Moloney, and more recent republican women but couldn't find any. I found one of Moloney on a website, but it wasn't of very good image quality. So I decided to go with what we had, at least for now.  Bobby Sands would be good.  I was mostly trying to find images of women but would have no problem with putting Sands in instead of one of the other men. In terms of which men I cut, since no one voiced any other opinions than what you see above, I have to admit I mostly went with the pics that worked together the best visually.  ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 22:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

try this maybe? Image:Countess Markiewicz.jpg --Vintagekits 03:19, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Ooh, great find, Vintagekits! ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 06:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I do think there should definitely be more women, but I don't think the 50/50 split is a good idea, simply because there are more notable Irishmen than women. Whether this is because of the all pervasive evil patriarchy is another issue, but as 50% of notable Irish people are not women, putting 50% of the pictures as women lends undue weight to them. Of course, I am in no way trying to imply that women have been any less important in Irish history, but that doesn't necessarily make them "notable". I propose simply including Maud Gonne or Lady Gregory, and Mary McAleese. Martin 03:50, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I propose that we do not see the collage image as the sum total of notable Irish people, but rather as a brief introduction. I propose adding additional pictures to other sections of the article. I'd like to see a picture of Bobby Sands in here somewhere, and some sports figures. I looked through the images currently available on WP and couldn't find any of Irish women sports figures, so those would be men. Also, if we are also including people in the diaspora, there are other prominent figures that could be included (JFK?) ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 19:38, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

PS - I've discovered that the current image of Mary Robinson needs to be replaced, as its fair-use status is debatable. So, we need to find a picture that is licensed for use in this sort of article. Unfortunately, the pic of Bobby Sands on WP is also not fully licensed. I strongly support gender parity, so would prefer if we could find a pic of a woman. We may have to go with a diasporic woman, though, as I searched pretty thoroughly to find the ones we have. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫ ♦ ♫ 19:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I too support gender parity, but I don't think that means half the pictures should be women. I'm saying this on the assumption that the collection of images at the start of the article should be an overview of notable Irish people; if this is not the case, I'm not sure what purpose they serve. My main concern is that the people pictured at the start of the article should be instantly recognisable (and if their image isn't, their name & work should at least be). Most people wouldn't recognise St. Brigid if she bit them on the bum, so I can't help but think this lessens the impact of the collage. I know this is to a large extent subjective, but I think it's a goal worth striving for. If "notability" isn't a factor, I'll happily submit my picture to be used! :)


 * I raised the point some time ago that I'd like to see a few northerners on there; George Best and C. S. Lewis spring to mind. I'm also surprised U2 aren't pictured in the intro; they are possibly the most well known Irish people on the planet.


 * As for the rest of the page, I seem to recall it being full of images at one point, or am I thinking of a different article? Martin 00:00, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with martin, we should have some contemporary famous irish people, actors/actresses, singers, sportsmen and the people he suggested are fine. --Globe01 18:05, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Name some more names. The images of Lewis, Best and U2 (at least the ones used in the articles) aren't copyright-free. Even better, find some pics :-) ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 02:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'm going to start a list of images with suitable licensing:
 * a mediocre group shot of U2, suitable for use in article, though not in collage.
 * a somewhat unflattering shot of Bono. I guess if we can't find a fair-use Irish woman, we could swap out Robbo for Bono.  ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 02:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the current picture is an improvement but it really doesn't look good now. You see it's now got 2 modern colour photos amongst a mostly black & white picture, it just looks bad. I think all but a few (1 or 2) of the black & white ones should be replaced with colour images. Also you are all suggesting famous people for the picture, but who said everyone in it has to be famous? why not have some photos of ordinary Irish people? The idea of having a picture of Irish people is to represent that ethnicity, so that someone who has never seen an Irish person can know what one looks like. I also already commented on this at the first picture's Talk page. Oh and one other thing I was thinking about, the collage should picture one person with red hair, as we do have (along with Scotland) the highest concentration of that hair colour in the world, so it is a distinguishing feature of the Irish (even though it is a bit of a Cliché).

--Hibernian 04:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * In that case, someone should find a free picture of Hector Ó hEochagáin. You have the Irish language and red hair right there. --Grimhelm 11:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

thats ridiculous, are you trying o reinforce racial stereotypes? People should be selected for theyre merit and fame not theyre hair colour, i'm not saying dont include this person but please re state why you chose this red head (give a reason that isnt due to the colour of her hair), on your logic we might aswell make the swedish people page entirely blonde. Seriously think about what you said, its very contreverial to choose someone becuase they conform with an ethnic stereotype. --Globe01 14:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Was that directed at me or Hibernian? Hibernian recommended the inclusion of a single person with red hair for the reasons he gave, so I simply suggested Hector Ó hEochagáin. And as I stated, it is not just because he has red hair (which he is well known for), but because he is well known for promoting the Irish language abroad (which is quite important for an article on the Irish people). Just take a look at his article for other notability. --Grimhelm 19:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Though more in evidence in Ireland than most countries, according to the red hair article, only about one in ten Irish people have red hair, so it's perhaps not as much of an ethnic trait as most people think. I do like Hibernian's idea of having "ordinary" Irish people on there, but it raises the rather obvious question as to what an "ordinary" Irish person looks like. In my mind, Phil Lynott is as Irish as Hector Ó hEochagáin, but he hardly conforms to most people's idea of what an Irish person looks like. Is this an article about the Irish as a distinct ethnic group, or an article about people originating in Ireland? Martin 23:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah I was going to suggest Phil Lynott as well. Seems like a good choice to me. Derry Boi 23:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Ooh, no pun intended but Phil Lynott rocks (er, rocked). The pic of him on stage is not appropriately licensed, but this one, of his statue in Dublin, is:  Not sure how the statue face would look in the collage, though...  I'm going to go look at the article again and see where best to put this. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫ ♦ ♫ 01:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Globe01, no I don't think it's promoting "racial stereotypes", because a stereotype by it's nature is inaccurate and negative, where-as it is quite accurate to say that about 10% of Irish people (a significantly larger number than anywhere else in the world, except Scotland) have red hair, and it is in no way something negative to state that fact. I mean, do you have some kind of problem with red haired people? Now the way I see it is, there are ten picture boxes in the collage, so one of those can represent red haired people (as that would accurately represent the amount of Irish people with that hair colour). Hector might be a good candidate for that (if someone can get a good picture), ironically that would also reflect the amount of Irish people who speak Irish. I also agree that Phil Lynott would be a good choice (although I don't really like the idea of a picture of his statue), although he may not be what most people think of as an Irishman, he was, and furthermore there is now a significant minority African immigrant community in Ireland, so it would not be inaccurate to have a black guy in the picture. As to the larger question of whether the picture should be of "Irish people" or "Famous Irish people" I think it will probably end up being famous people, but those people should be there to represent the Irish people as a whole. I think the objective of the image should be to show the diversity of the population, I also agree, for that reason, that it should be 50% female (or at-least close to that). --Hibernian 02:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Am I the only one that think the current picture is fine? With regards the Phil Lynott issue, whilst I am a big fan of the man and his music, I do not think he is representative of what an Irish people looks like. Although we have had significant inward migrant over the past 5 - 10 years Black people still make up less than 1% of the population and most of those people the vast majority are not Irish and do not yet hold Irish citizenship so to add a Black person would be too PC imo (but lets not make this a negative immigration or race issue and also for the record Philo is great) --Vintagekits 03:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, obviously I'm fine with the current picture :-) Mary Robinson has to be taken out for copyright license reasons, but I think your excellent find of Countess Markiewicz will do nicely.  As a few people suggested her, I think we'd do fine to swap her in.  I'll see if I can get to it sometime tomorrow.  Thanks again for finding her!  ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 06:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * And while I'm at it, why don't we swap out one of the men for a contemporary guy? The pic of Shaw isn't the best, how about we replace him with Bono?  I've been looking through pics of Van Morrison,   and I like Hector Ó hEochagáin as an Irish-speaker, but none of the WP pics of them I can find are licensed for use in a collage, or even for use in article that isn't directly about them.  ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 07:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I dont think good ould Hector is notable enough to go in to be honest. Also, altough I got the picture of our galavanting Countess, I do not necessarily think we should have 5 men and 5 women per se - there are far more notable Irish men then women down through history (through surpession and other socio-economic factors) hopefully that will change but for the mean time probably 2 or 3 should be the max unless there is a very good reason --Vintagekits 21:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Hibernian i dont have a problem with red haired people, its your arguement for including a red haired person because you claim 10% of irish people have red hair that i have a problem with.

You can include this person with red hair, i dont have a problem with that, what i do have a problem with was your statement about including a red haired person becuase ireland as more red haired people than any other country after scotland. Just choose people based on theyre merit and fame, not theyre hair colour, please include this red haired person in the article but i would not accept any old joe bloggs or jane smith being inlcluded in an article because of theyre hair colour thats all. I accepts that this red haired person is of notable merit and by all means include her in the article!. --Globe01 18:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm hesitant to let statistics dictate who should go in the collage, and this applies to red-haired people as much as the male/female split. Fame, or notability, does not really respect demographic considerations, so I'd argue that we should be hesitant to do so. At the very least, we should not be discarding wold-famous individuals because they are the wrong gender (or hair colour for that matter!).


 * Perhaps there are too many in the collage? We're never going to fit a representative cross-section of Irish society into ten pictures, so should we be trying to? English people, Scottish people and Welsh people all have fewer pictures (and as a result, they all go together better aesthetically). W B Yeats, Oscar Wilde, St Brigid, James Joyce, Bram Stoker and Maude Gonne would be a nice mix. I don't think the colour photographs sit well with the black and white ones, so it might be best to leave them out until some more PD colour pictures can be found.


 * I can't really complain though; Kathryn is doing a great job of taking everyone's suggestions on board and editing the collage. It's easy to make comments when you're not the one doing the hard work! :) Martin 19:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Martin :-) OK, though we didn't have a whole lot of consensus here, I did my best with what we have.  I swapped out Robbo for Countess Markiewicz, and replaced Shaw with the more modern Bono. Again, I looked through literally dozens of contemporary figures, and this was the most useable shot that was licensed for this use and would also fit somewhat with what we had.  Though I've nothing against Shaw in terms of notability, his wasn't the best pic, so he got the boot for that reason alone.  Though I liked the subtle hues on Swift and St. Brigid, I do agree the other two modern pics stuck out too much, even after I massively reduced the saturation, so I decided to try this in all B&W.  I didn't replace any of the other pics that were already integrated into the collage because, well, we had to deal with the copyright issue without any more delay, and this is the amount of work I was up to doing at this time.  Thanks everyone for your input. Don't hate me if it's not perfect ;-)  ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 04:16, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Well I don't hate you, but I really don't like the all Black & White look. I suppose it's better than it was though, not by much though. Thanks for doing the hard work all the same though. --Hibernian 14:22, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks good Kathryn; I think the all black & white look is better than having the two colour images, and it seems to be the best compromise at the minute. Now, if only we could apply the same effort to the rest of the article as we have the pretty pictures... ;) Martin 05:23, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

British Basque Link Alternative theory
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v13/n12/abs/5201482a.html

heres is a link from the european journal of genetics basically saying that at least the irish basque link is paleolithic and there may not hasve been re-expansions from the basque country, i have only read the abstract. --Globe01 12:57, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

More on Irish people
How about a list of the following? Daniel O'Connell, Michael Davitt, John Hume, Mary Robinson, Lady Gregory, Pierce Brosnan, Arthur Guinness, Phillip Lynnott, George Best, Seán Óg Ó hAilpín (the latter because every woman I know fancies him)? In any case, I don't think its a bad idea to keep changeing it now and again. Fergananim 11:10, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

yeah ok you have my permission to use those people, and by all means change the list every 3 months or so or expand the list even. --Globe01 12:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Some more, Daniel O'Connell, Sean Lemass, Eamon Develera, Michael Collins, Brendan Behan, James Joyce, Patrick Kavanagh, Charles Parnell, 86.42.166.50 16:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll add a few more, eg footballers. It's a strangely selective list though; it even contains the odd Plastic Paddy. But there are some noticeble omissions. I put in Bernard Shaw, but I notice that although Bobby Sands is there, his boss Gerry Adams is not. Nor for that matter is, er, Ian Paisley.....13:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Section on Common Physical Traits
That would be great.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.30.219.118 (talk • contribs)
 * Monobrows.--Vintagekits 22:38, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Proper red har (viz. orange), although in fact only 2% of the population, but still far more that other countries. An orthodontist once told me that the Irish had quite bad teeth because of the mix of different peoples on the island (likewise GB), same reason that there is not simple "common physical trait" although a lack of "common physical traits" may in itself be worth noting. --sony-youth talk 08:41, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Do Irish people have bad teeth?? I think your orthodontist was talkin s*@#e! Also the Irish gene pool isnt as wide as you may expect. Romans never came here and the Vikings made very little in roads expect for the east coast.--Vintagekits 20:56, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

"Bad teeth" is a very subjective term,though coming from an orthodontist I would take it to mean crooked teeth as opposed to decayed teeth. I don't see how a varied mix of peoples in a particular geographical area would have any effects on a populations collective occlusion.There are certainly genetic factors that come into play in malocclusions but I don't think this has much to do with mixing "races".Surely a population more mixed than Irelands, such as the USA would have some of the worst teeth of all if this were the case?--90.199.44.232 19:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

This "red hair" thing's odd. My perception of a "Celt" is someone dark haired and blue-eyed. In south east Ireland, the people look different, largely because of the substantial Norse settlement over 1000 years ago. But even there, red haired people are not that usual. Indeed, I was told that it was Travellers who were liable to be red-headed. Bill Tegner 23:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Bobby Sands
Moved the article on the above into its proper alphabetical order. Fergananim 22:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

New Zealand Irish
I amended the Irish population figures original estimate was 1.000.000 people. But the New Zealand government web site estimates the figures to be 11.199 for the (Source NZ 2001 census:

Gypsies in Ireland
This article currently says nothing about the roma gypsie presence in Ireland, there have been gypsies who came from elsewhere in Ireland for hundreds of years most of whom bred with the people of ireland. We need to add this to the ancestry section or some other section. --Globe01 20:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If you have relevant, noteworthy and referenced material forthe article feel free to add it.--Vintagekits 20:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Surnames
The prefix is often incorrectly written as O', using an English apostrophe instead of the Irish fada mark.

This isn't correct, I'm changing the line to read: "The prefix is most commonly written as O', using an apostrophe instead of the Irish fada mark (see [])".

I also don't think that the apostrophe is solely an English punctuation mark; see []

Ironcorona 22:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Pure speculation but would O’ not be a (fairly) literal translation of Ó while keeping the same appearance? O’ meaning of as in o’clock, will-o’-the-wisp, Jack-o’-lantern and (god help us) top o’the morning. --sony-youth talk 21:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Historically, it's my understanding that it's largely a typesetting issue. If a typewriter or printing press was not set up to use fadas, and many were not, they substituted the apostrophe.  In areas where it would be unusual to have fadas on these sorts of equipment, the apostrophe became more common.  ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 22:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds strange to me. I never heard of a typewriter that could not do at least an acute accent and I cannot why understand someone would buy a big, expensive printing press for their business and not invest in a couple of accented vowels - would scupper their market for Latin texts, at the very minimum, would it not? Was that not where the big bucks were? I thought it was only with the computer age that ` started to be used for accents, through users either not knowing how to do an accent or their keyboard settings not being set-up to do it right. In any case, how did it affect signatures? --sony-youth talk 10:57, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The apostrophe that usually follows the O actually comes from a misunderstanding by English-speaking clerks in Elizabethan time, who interpreted it as a form of the word "of." Another common Irish prefix, Fritz, derives from the French word fils, also meaning "son."


 * From here. This sounds like what I thought I'd heard before.


 * Thanks, Ironcorona. Updated the page with it. --sony-youth talk 23:06, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Alphabetical order!!!
Hi guys. Just want to make a point for anyone past, present and future, who edits the list of notable Irish people. People who have only one name, are known by just one name, or lack surnames (ie., Dicuil, Bono, Diarmait mac Mail na mBo) have to be listed first, THEN followed by people by surname. Its rather annoying to have to edit this a number of times over (as I am about to, again) because people don't pay attention. Please do so in future. Is mise, Fergananim 21:44, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Page Move?
It seems to me that while other pages go by such names as "Germans" and "Britons", the Irish ethnicity is reffered to on wikipedia as "Irish people", rather than "Irishmen". It seems to me that this page should be moved to "Irishmen". You don't see "German people" or "British people", do you?

Ninja! 00:17, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Um ... and Irishwomen? --sony-youth talk 16:12, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Notable Irish People Pictures!
The whole point of listing notable and important irish people is lost when you read list that includes James Joyce, Robert Boyle etc and then to the right there is none other than... Anna Nolan and some other musician of little importance. Id change it myself, but i am wiki editing illiterate.

Also, enough talk about this DNA stuff, it is completely irrelevant and is only there to be taken advantage of by fascists, racists and nationalists.


 * I agree, but only up to a point. If someone can introduce more photos or portraits of more people, all the better for choice. As not featuring auld reliables ... I got rid of them because they were precisly that! Ireland is a very different place from what the likes of Joyce, Yeats, Collins, et cetera, knew and I wanted to reflect that. Plus I wanted to show new faces and breck the sterotypes. I think the DNA talk is interesting, and if handled in an informed way, should be included in the article. As for it being taken advantage of, those you mention take advantage of anything anyway, so long as it justifies/excuses/rationalises their raison d'etre. Fergananim 16:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The thing is everyone in the world has the same DNA--90.199.44.232 19:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Irish secret agent
Fixed a change made by an anon user on the 18th March which described Sean O'Callaghan as an "Irish informer for the British Army." This is POV, so I have changed it to its original reading of "secret agent." In any case, while he did have a relationship with British Intelligence Services (NOT the British army) he was primerly an agent for the Irish Intel Service. Fergananim 09:54, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Irish People
There is a comma missing between Brian O'Nolan and Peig Sayers, in the third paragraph of the opening of the article. 92.11.178.220 (talk) 22:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Thanks for pointing that out. --Grimhelm (talk) 00:35, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Anglo-Irish
Isn't it a bit odd that most of the people featured in the photo section are Anglo-Irish? Nothing against the Anglo-Irish, but shouldn't there be more "ethnic" Hibernian Irish featured? -24.149.193.49 (talk) 08:02, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * A systematic bias. It would be quite hard to find an image of a famous Irish person from the Comwellian re-conquest until the late 19th century who was not Anglo-Irish owing to the Penal Laws etc. For similar reasons it also lacks a Scotch Irish/Ulster Scots contingent - though in the 20th century that is unforgivable (George Best was Anglican, IIRC?). --sony-youth pléigh 11:53, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

It may just be because the only famous Irish people were those who live in England or the US. The Irish are not sn inherently successful people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.176.97.11 (talk) 20:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Yep, but its sure better than all the american stuff in there, why do the americans feel the need to use every one of our articles like they are themselves? Even De Valera isn't irish born! User:Fitz41

Archived
Previous page was getting far too long, so I archieved it. Fergananim 21:55, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all Infobox Ethnic group infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Notable Irish people
100 million Irish ( If you combine all Irish people around the world). I don't think your able to come up with that number. 100 million is too far fetch. Very unrealistic number. Irish-American consider themselves more American then Irish. That goes the same with all Irish ancestors living around the world. Can you please correct the number. I would deeply appreciate it.

Pruned it a little as it can get rather long, and a bit inaccurate. Fergananim 14:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC) Yes. Surely John F Kennedy was not an Irish person, but was rather a person of Irish descent (or was he given some kind of honorary citizenship?). I think the section should be limited to Irish people - i.e. those who were born in Ireland, and/or who held Irish Citizenship, or who held British Citizenship and are from Northern Ireland post partition or from Ireland Pre-Partition. If we start including famous Irish Americans (or Australians, or Canadians, or Brits, etc) the list could get very long.

WHY SHOULD IT BE LIMITED? THE POINT IS, THERE IS A VERY LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ETHNICALLY IRISH WHETHER OR NOT YOU IRISH IN IRELAND WANT TO ACCEPT IT OR NOT. I GET VERY OFFENDED AT BEING EXCLUDED BY ACCIDENT OF BIRTH GIVEN THAT MOST OF MY ANCESTORS WERE IRISH FOR AT LEAST 7000 YEARS. GET YOUR HEAD AROUND THIS FACT, THE IRISH ARE AN INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY. IT IS POSSIBLE TO BE ETHNICALLY IRISH AND A NATIONAL OF ANOTHER COUNTRY, SO PULL YOUR HEADS IN, TO ACT OTHERWISE IS NARROWMINDED. BTW 100 mill is not so far fetched if we include people with any Irish ancestry. In NZ the number of Irish Descendants is about 15% which is about 600,000, & this doesn't include anybody of Scottish ethnicity, which was invaded and settled from Ireland in the First Millennium, leading to a large strain of Irish ethnicity there. BTW #2 Danish people have no problem including NZ with the Danish people as the country with the highest proportionate Danish population outside Denmark and we don't even speak Danish any more. And while I'm on the subject, can you call yourself Irish if you live in Ireland and don't speak Irish? Yes you can. So pull your heads in. 203.211.78.19 (talk) 11:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree. Most of those on the list are especially notable but a few are rather minor, and a couple, like JFK, are questionable, subject to clarification of the purpose of this list (not sure how much point there is). 195.96.72.22 07:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Also, just removed "Klara McDonnell" from the list - assume that it's a general rule of thumb that if the person is not notable enough to have their own page in Wikipedia, they don't belong on the list? Sorcha niri 16:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

60 million Irish is correct number. 90 percent of all Irish descent consider themselves Non-Irish. I have never met Irish-American, Irish-Canadian, Irish-Australian consider themselves to be Irish. They are proud to be Irish descent they are openly display Irishness in St.Patrick Day but thats about it. All Irish descent living and working abroad won't live and work in Ireland. They are happy being American, Canadian, and Austrialian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Irishboston (talk • contribs) 08:29, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Considering the earliest inhabitants of Ireland are believed to have scurried over from Iberia some thousands of years ago when Europe started to warm up, shouldn't this item be changed to notable Spanish / Portuguese / Basque people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.196.231.122 (talk) 19:07, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that i accurate but prolly won't happen. Like the later additions by the English and Scots are downplayed.193.118.251.61 (talk) 15:16, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Irish community in Great Britain
On the info box page for this article it says that about 800,000 people in GB were born in Ireland, and at least 6,000,000 an Irish grandparent. However, are there any staistics for people like myself, who have one Irish great-grandparent.

No —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.196.231.122 (talk) 15:17, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm from Preston, Lancashire and I would say that probably 80-90% of people who live here that have roots in the Preston area back to 1901 probably have some Irish heritage, due to the area being heavily Catholic, in the centre of the Industrial Revolution and also across the sea from Dublin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Derogatory names for Irish
Can someone tell me what them derogatory names for all Irish people? --Blake3522 08:12, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No your racist. Pro66 (talk) 21:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Pictures?
Where'd all the pictures go? I realize there was some debate about gender parity and all, but I don't think the answer is to have none at all. Barring a good reason not to, I'm going to start putting them back. -  Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 16:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There were copyright problems, namely (I think) Bono and Mary McAleese. -- zzuuzz (talk) 16:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

We need to show some military leaders, maybe Tom Barry. And we need a leader of 1916

Prytani point
A section on the origin of "Briton" was added and removed. While much of it was irrelevant to the article, and it may have been used to imply a dubious point, there may be points from it of use, especially from the early lines: The general term Pretani (or the prefix prit-) was sometimes applied to all the indigenous inhabitants of the British Isles ("Pretannic Isles") by the Greeks. (as footnote) Pytheas c.330BC: "Isles of the Prettanike"; Diodorus Siculus c.50BC: "those of the Pretani who inhabit the country called Iris (Ireland)". The Roman equivalent, which they called Britannias and Britanniae, is the historical origin of the words Briton and British in Old English. After the only-partial Roman conquest of the islands, these terms came to be used to refer to the Roman-controlled area—the southern half of modern-day Great Britain, the Roman province of Britannia. However, in time, the area denoted by Britain expanded again, so that by the 8th century it signified the entire island of Britain. The result of this is that, somewhat ironically, the word British is now strongly associated with the United Kingdom rather than as a pan-island identity or signifier. ...However, Greek sources at the time cannot claim to have had an in-depth understanding of the ethnic nature of Ireland and Britain. 195.96.72.22 07:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The term Pretani, Prytani is ultimately of Celtic origin, the Greeks and Romans merely adopted it. Welsh uses 'Ynys Prydein' for Island of Britain. The sound shift from 'P' to 'Q' Celtic produces 'Cruithne' from 'Pretani'. Cruithne was the Irish term for the Picts and also for the peoples of Britain generally (some peoples of Ireland were also termed Cruithne - presumably because of their British ancestry, the Brigantes were found in early Ireland as well as Britain). Urselius 14:17, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Names - sources?
The whole names section, but chiefly the forenames part, seems a little opinionated. Can we have the sources for the many statements on forenames? And I hope it is something from the Registries of Births, and not some newspaper survey by the Irish Times or the Indo - no summation of published birth announcements is likely to well-reflect the actual population. 195.96.72.22 07:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

New image made
The previous image was deleted by someone due to license problems. I created a new image, without any license problems. The complete discription on the license types and links can be found on the page of the image. M.V.E.i. 20:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Whole section of Irish surnames missing
There is no mention of names of Hiberno-Norse origins.

Mac Auliffe, Cotter, Sweeney etc. Urselius 11:07, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

List
Just trimmed it a little with a view to contempories. Removed JFK and Michael Flatley because they are Americans of Irish descent, not Irish. Fergananim, 23 October 2007. —Preceding comment was added at 10:34, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * With some more trimming, I got the list down to just under seventy. Hope its an improvement in quality and notability. Fergananim 16:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)