Talk:Irish people/Archive 3

Cork
It is cited that Cork was founded by Vikings, but was it not a monastic settlement which was founded by St. Finbarr and later overrun by Vikings? I see the provided notation and of course the Vikings instituted a more city like layout, but isn't this an unresolved or rather ambiguous historical issue? -RiverHockey 01:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The History of Cork article says :


 * "Cork has its beginnings in monastic settlement, founded by St Finbar in the sixth century. However the ancestor of the modern city was founded in the 12th century, when Viking settlers established a trading community there". Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 01:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Pictures again
OK, while I understand the ease of doing individual pics over the collages, we're now back to the problem of five men and only one woman. Per the general consensus last time this came up, I think we need to rectify this. -  Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 06:17, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Kathryn, I count 12 men and 5 women in the infobox- is it not displaying correctly for you? The problem is all the pictures need to be copyright free and there aren't too many of those around. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 10:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Now there are :-) They've been added since I viewed the page last. -  Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 20:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And with all due respect, you will find that a 12:5 male-female ratio is quite low when considering influential figures in Irish history. -RiverHockey 12:54, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Is there an 18th century born woman anyone can think of as we have a space on that row? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 13:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * For the top row, I have found the following 18th century born Irish women:


 * Maria Edgeworth, Constantia Grierson, Elizabeth Griffith, Dorothy Jordan, Lady Morgan, Eibhlín Dubh Ní Chonaill, Máire Bhuí Ní Laoghaire, Laetitia Pilkington, Anna Maria Porter, Jane Porter, Frances Sheridan, Mary Tighe. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 17:28, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I got rid of Nicholas Callan and replaced him with images of Mary Tighe and Lady Morgan which restores the gender balance a bit! 18:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * On a side note, does anyone know why Jane and Anna Maria Porter are labelled as Irish as any connection with Ireland seems entirely absent from their articles?? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 18:19, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, apparently their father was Irish (Anglo?) but as they neither seem to have set foot in Ireland I changed them both to English. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 19:36, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, so Tighe and Morgan - who wrote some largely forgotten novels and poems - are apparently more important than Callan who only invented the induction coil which laid the foundation for the ENTIRE age of electronics. It is still used in every spark plug and camera flash. Moreover: Yet for these, the Duke of Wellington, Robert Boyle (the FOUNDER OF CHEMISTRY!), James Joyce (considered the world over as one of history's finest writers), Boole and Hamilton (two very significant mathematicians) must make way. Is the purpose of this page to show significant Irish people who excelled in their field, or is it to show that half of Irish people are men and half are women? True balance would show babies and children. EamonnPKeane (talk) 02:19, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * St Brigid: not even a real person, a euhemerisation of a Celtic goddess
 * Guinness: became rich by selling booze.
 * Hayes: had she not been Irish, she would be even more forgotten than she is
 * Bono/Bob Geldof: sanctimonous millionaires who wrote mediocre pop songs. Enya is hardly superior to even Rory Gallagher or Phil Lynott.
 * Lady Gregory: produced few significant works

The pictures
Once again, my hat is off to the person(s) who've been busy on the photos. Good selection, well edited and presented. Pats on the backs all round! Fergananim —Preceding comment was added at 16:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Not to rain on anyones parade, but isn't that many pictures a bit overkill? -- Grandpafootsoldier (talk) 20:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Overkill eh? Are you saying it harms the article? I think it gives a pretty good selection of notable Irish people (of both sexes) from the 18th-21st centuries. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 20:39, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I do NOT agree with having Andrea Corr as part of the picture montage at the top of the article. I suggest a sportsperson, because Bono and Enya are probably the most notable Irish musicians and two representing Irish music is enough, in my opinion. What do you think?? (Don't think Bob Geldof represnts music, more political activism) Maybe George Best, as there is also only one from Northern Ireland.

--MaxPride (talk) 20:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It was lacking in sportspeople but I'm not certain we are allowed copyright images for these collages (I'll check this out and get back 2 u). Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 21:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Irish Travellers
I noticed on the demographics of Ireland that Irish travellers are not considered white/European; they have their own category. I dont knnow much about them so I am just wondering if they are the same as the gypsies of Europe. I read about them on Wikipedia, and it does not suggest that they are gypsies like those in Europe! Any information please! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Galati (talk • contribs) 18:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * A complex matter. Ireland never had any significant Romany presence, for example, so there is indeed little or no linkage to Gypsies. As I understand (and this is from school lessons) the Irish Traveller population is descended from a mix of (a) tinker folk, who have been travelling Ireland for centuries to millennia, (b) travelling agricultural labourers, a group who grew during English rule as the clan land system eroded, and (c) others dispossessed of their land during the Penal Law and other periods, such as the Great Famine. I remember an article in the Times which noted that there is not a significant genetic difference between the main and the traveller Irish populations, but there is little cross-marriage between the two. But there must be someone out there with some strong academic citations on this. 83.250.96.225 (talk) 18:46, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Travelers are unrelated to gypsies. (Indeed, AFAIK they are quite insulted by this common mistake.) Also, can you point to the article where they are described as not being considered white/European. They are considered white (and Irish!), see question 14 here. --sony-youth pléigh 22:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I saw it on the demographics of Northern Ireland wikipedia page so I thougtht that there was a difference! Thanks for the answers!Galati (talk) 20:00, 13 April 2008 (UTC)Galati

Atlantic Atlantis Chromosone
Can someone please tell me what this is? Google's no help.Doug Weller (talk) 13:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Basically it is referring to the chromosome most commonly found in people along the Atlantic coast of Europe- in Portugal, Galicia, the Basque country, Britanny, and the British Isles. The theory is that this chromosome is the marker of the neolithic peoples who lived in the West of Europe before the influx of Germanic peoples- the subject is covered in Bryan Sykes' book "Blood of the Isles" Stephen Oppenheimer in "The Origins of the British" and in Barry Cunliffe's book "Facing the Ocean: The Atlantic and Its Peoples". Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 14:49, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * No, Barry Cunliffe's book doesn't discuss an 'Atlantic Chromosome' or genetics. And Google doesn't turn it up.

Oppenheimer does not mention an Atlantic chromosome either although he does discuss types of Y chromosomes in arguing that Irish ancestry is Basque, not Celtic, and that is covered in the article. It would be nice to see what Y chromosome Sykes is talking about. I'm puzzled that the only mentions of 'Atlantic chromosome' come from Wikipedia, I shall get his book from the library and see what he says.Doug Weller (talk) 15:18, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Right, the actual phrase "Atlantic chromosome" seems to be a quote from Sykes book- I assume he is referring to the chromosome type that is most common in people of the Atlantic coast. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 15:59, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I should be able to get it today or tomorrow, it would be nice to be more specific.Doug Weller (talk) 16:03, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Just got back, cooking meal, but it is Atlantis, not Atlantic. And of course it's been copied elsewhere wrong. But I think there are too many quotes, and probably wp:undue weight Doug Weller (talk) 17:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, the highest levels of these chromosomes are in Atlantic Europe and it is the largest "genetic family" in Europe as a whole. Spain and Portugal have the largest percentages and following very closely the British Isles. One of the many surprises of population genetics. Jan.


 * Please note: In 1947 Ireland’s Department of External Affairs drafted a letter to the heads of all government departments...... The expression “British Isles” was “a complete misnomer and its use should be thoroughly discouraged”; it should be replaced “where necessary by Ireland and Great Britain.” ClemMcGann (talk) 09:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Irish people are cool
You, irish, are really cool people. -- 82.209.225.33 (talk) 17:59, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I of course don't mean nationalistic ones, above my section -- 82.209.225.33 (talk) 18:06, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I know aren't we, not that I'm being modest or anything!!! hehe!!! (Emmie) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.77.2 (talk) 17:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

ethnicity or nationality?
This article doesn't seem to have made up its mind about whether it is about an ethnicity or a nationality. At first glance, I think it should stick with the nationality side, for several reasons: --Allen (talk) 17:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Most countries have WP articles about the people who live there, and this article is the closest thing Ireland has to that.
 * An article about a nationality can still include information on the common ethnic backgrounds of its people.
 * An article about a nationality can still include information about a diaspora; the diaspora just needs to be defined based on national origin rather than ethnicity.
 * It doesn't look like there exists a single, unambiguous "Irish" ethnicity.
 * Making the article strictly about an ethnic group would require extensive rewriting; making the article about the nationality would mostly just mean changing the first two sentences to something like, "Irish people descend from various European ethnic groups, especially X, Y, and Z. Many people in other English-speaking countries trace their ancestry to Ireland."
 * When you say, "it should stick with the nationality side", do you mean a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, or the United Kingdom? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 23:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Good point. I wouldn't want to exclude Northern Ireland, so the word "nationality" doesn't work.  But we can still make the article about the people of Ireland in general, as opposed to an ethnicity.  Just substitute "geographical origin" wherever I said "nationality" in my first post.  --Allen (talk) 05:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review: On Hold
As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Culture and Society" articles. I believe the article currently meets the majority of the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. However, in reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that need to be addressed. I have made minor corrections and have included several points below that need to be addressed for the article to remain a GA. Please address them within seven days and the article will maintain its GA status. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted. If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. If you disagree with any of the issues, leave a comment after the specific issue and I'll be happy to discuss/agree with you. To keep tabs on your progress so far, either strike through the completed tasks or put checks next to them.

Needs inline citations:
 * 1) "Legendary early arrivals included the Nemedians, the Fomorians, the Fir Bolgs, and the Tuatha Dé Danann, though with the exception of the Fir Bolgs, they are now treated as mythical rather than actual human incursions."
 * 2) "One legend states that the Irish were descended from Míl Espáine (coined Milesius, from Latin "Miles Hispaniae", meaning "Soldier of Hispania")." ✅
 * 3) "If this invasion was as large as the mythology would suggest, it would account for the genetic similarity of the Northern Iberian populations and the Irish."
 * 4) "It is thought that the Basque Country and neighbouring regions served as a refuge for palaeolithic humans during the last major glaciation when environments further north were too cold and dry for continuous habitation."
 * 5) "Most of these were assimilated into Irish culture and polity by the 15th century, in particular the Welsh-Normans who settled into the Pale due to the close proximity of Ireland to Wales." ✅
 * 6) "It is common for Irish Gaelic surnames to be anglicised when used in English, and retain their Gaeilic version for use in Gaelic, just as many surnames of non-Gaelic origin have adapted their own Gaelic versions for use in Gaelic." (This dual language system for surnames dates to when the language spoken in Ireland changed from the Irish language to the English language due to the plantations in the 1600s.)
 * 7) "The Normans themselves were descendents of Vikings, who had settled in Normandy and thoroughly adopted the French language and culture." ✅
 * 8) "There were, for example, at least nine separate Ó Ceallaigh septs, all unrelated. "
 * 9) "Also Scottish surnames are noticeable in some Catholics in Ireland, particularly in Ulster, due to intermarriage and pre-Reformation immigration."
 * 10) "An English report of 1515 states that the Irish people were divided into over sixty Gaelic lordships and thirty Anglo-Irish lordships. The English term for these lordships was "nation" or "country"." ✅
 * 11) "Despite these divergent backgrounds most of their descendants consider themselves Irish — even where they are aware of such ancestry — mainly due to their lengthy presence in Ireland."
 * 12) "After the strict bardic schools closed down, the complex rhyming scheme and the literary standard of Classical Irish became impossible to maintain across the country."
 * 13) "According to Lecky, conversions also occurred to a lesser extent, which were mostly class-based; Catholics sometimes become Protestant to keep their lands and titles or to gain advantages, while some Protestants who were from the lower classes or who had fallen on hard times would become Catholic."
 * 14) "The diaspora contains over 80 million people." ✅
 * 15) "Irish in the Americas number around 60 million."
 * 16) "It is believed that roughly one third of the Presidents of the United States of America had at least some Irish descent." If a source is found, reword "it is believed". ✅
 * 17) "The Irish are also one of the largest self-reported ethnic groups in Canada, Irish Canadians number around 4 million." ✅
 * 18) "Many defected to the Mexican army and eventually settled in Mexico in order to escape the strong anti-Catholic discrimination in the United States. Vicente Fox, former president of the Republic of Mexico, is of Irish descent." ✅
 * 19) "Irish-Argentines number over 500,000." ✅
 * 20) "The battalion is commemorated in Mexico on Saint Patrick's day and on September 12, the anniversary of the first executions." ✅

Other issues:
 * 1) To better summarize the article, the lead needs to be expanded to three or four paragraphs. See WP:LEAD for guidelines. ✅
 * Image:Maureenohara2.jpg Currently has no license. If it is a non-free image, it needs a detailed fair use rationale explaining why it should be used for this article.
 * 1) The tag at the top of the page needs to be addressed. The article has been tagged since April 2008. ✅
 * 2) "Genetically, in terms of Y-chromosomes and Mt-DNA, inhabitants of Britain and Ireland are closely related to the Basques,[10][10]" Convert the external link to an inline citation. Fix the other occurrences within the article.
 * 3) "As to the genetic relationship among Basques, Iberians and Britons, he also states (pages 375 and 378):" Convert this to an inline citation, and move it to the end of the quote. ✅
 * 4) "The most famous people of ancient Irish history are the High Kings of Ireland, such as Cormac mac Airt and Niall of the Nine Hostages, and the semi-legendary Fianna." It can be difficult to declare "the most famous", as it may be considered POV. If this is a quote, add an inline citation. If not, consider rewording.
 * 5) "It is very common for people..." The paragraph before this starts off similarly, consider rewording so that it doesn't sound redundant.
 * 6) "The Irish surname "Walsh" was routinely given to settlers of Welsh origin." Single sentences shouldn't stand alone. Either expand on it or incorporate it into another paragraph. Fix any other occurrences within the article. ✅
 * 7) "Only in the major part of Ulster did the plantations prove long-lived; the other three provinces (Connacht, Leinster, and Munster) remained heavily Catholic, and eventually, the Protestant populations of those three provinces would decrease drastically as a result of the political developments in the early 20th century in Ireland and also the Catholic church's Ne Temere decree for mixed marriages which obliged the non-Catholic partner to give an undertaking to have the children raised as Catholics." This sentence needs to be split into two or three sentences as it can be hard to follow.✅
 * 8) The expansion tag in "Recent history" needs to be addressed. Instead of just listing names, consider touching on some of the individual accomplishments/notable events. ✅
 * 9) "In the Republic of Ireland about 86.82% [11] of the population are Catholic. In Northern Ireland about 53.1% of the population are Protestant (21.1% Presbyterian, 15.5% Church of Ireland, 3.6% Methodist, 6.1% Other Christian) whilst a large minority are Catholic at approximately 43.8%, as of 2001." The citation needs to go at the end (and be converted to an inline citation). Also, see if there is a more current update of the information present. ✅
 * 10) "The most significant Irish media figure is Gay Byrne, who presented the Late Late Show from 1962-1999." Again, stating "most significant" may appear as POV, so either cite or reword. ✅
 * 11) "...and national hero William Brown." Reword "hero". ✅
 * 12) In the "List of notable Irish people" section, hyphens and commas alternate among the names; choose one and fix the opposite. ✅

This article covers the topic well and if the above issues are addressed, I believe the article can remain a GA. I will leave the article on hold for seven days, but if progress is being made and an extension is needed (due to the large number of issues), I will be happy to extend the deadline. I will leave messages on the talk pages of the main contributors to the article along with the related WikiProjects so that the workload can be shared. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 (talk) 04:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's good to see that progress is being made. I will leave the article on hold for another week for the issues to be addressed. Keep up the good work and let me know if you have any questions. --Nehrams2020 (talk) 05:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Good job so far! I'll leave it on hold for another week. Please contact me on my talk page if you finish sooner. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 (talk) 02:35, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have crossed off the issues that have been completed thus far. There are only a few remaining in each of the two above sections and I will be returning on 7/18 to re-review the article. If you finish all of the issues in the "other issues" section, and cannot find sources for the issues in the "need citations" section, then consider removing them from the article until a source can be added later. If you have any questions or need help with the remaining issues, please contact me on my talk page. I will be back in a few days. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 (talk) 06:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review: Pass
I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. I have removed the unsourced statements from the article, which can be readded once sources are found. The list of these statements are the ones in the above "needs inline citations" section. Continue to improve the article making sure all new information is properly sourced and neutral. It would also be beneficial to go through the article and update all of the access dates of the online inline citations and fix any dead links. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 (talk) 02:56, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reviewing! It was hard to find sources for a lot of the sources, so thank you for being so patient and helpful with the review. --Grimhelm (talk) 07:43, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Removed list

 * Brigid of Kildare - Saint, died c.525
 * Cerball mac Dúnlainge - King of Osraige 842-888
 * Dicuil - 8th and 9th century geographer
 * Feidlimid mac Cremthanin - King of Munster, 820-846
 * Flann Sinna - King of Mide and High King; c.847-916
 * Máel Sechnaill mac Maíl Ruanaid, Irish High King, died 862
 * Marianus Scotus - chronicler, died c.1083
 * Bertie Ahern - Irish Taoiseach 1997-2008
 * Francis Bacon (painter) - Artist, 1909-1992
 * George Berkeley - Philosopher,1685-1753
 * James Butler, 1st Duke of Ormonde - statesman and soldier, died 1688
 * Ninette de Valois - ballerina and founder of the Royal Ballet, died 2001
 * Paddy Finucane - Battle of Britain flying ace, 1920-1942
 * Veronica Guerin - journalist, murdered 1996
 * Arthur Guinness - brewer and founder of the Guinness dynasty
 * William Rowan Hamilton - mathematician and scientist
 * Margaret Hassan - humanitarian, kidnapped and murdered in Iraq
 * John Hume - Politician, Nobel Laureate, born 1937
 * Caitlín R. Kiernan - fantasy/science fiction writer, born 1964
 * Francis Ledwidge - poet and political activist, killed in action 1917
 * Mary McAleese - President of Ireland since 1997
 * Dermot MacMurrough - King of Leinster, died 1171
 * Eamonn McCann - political activist, born 1943
 * David Norris, Senator and Civil Rights Activist, born 1944
 * Daniel O'Connell - barrister and Irish emancipator
 * Francis Martin O'Donnell - senior UN diplomat
 * Grace O'Malley - Irish chieftain and pirate, c.1530-c.1603
 * Samantha Power - born 1970, journalist, writer, and academic
 * Mary Robinson- seventh Irish president, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights
 * Adi Roche - humanitarian
 * Lorcan Ua Tuathail - Archbishop of Dublin, died 1180
 * Mary Ward (scientist) - world's first motor vehicle accident victim.

I have removed this list because it doesn't add anything to the article — if readers want to see a list of Irish people, we already have the main article, List of Irish people. Most of the names from the orginal list are now part of the prose of the article, but the remainder are here in case anyone wants to reinsert some back into the article at any point. --Grimhelm (talk) 08:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Imagery in infobox
With regard to the Flag of the Republic of Ireland in the infobox of at the top of the article, a footnote makes clear as to the geographical area covered:

"The Republic of Ireland 2006 census reports 3,609,556 people who were born on the island of Ireland. The 2001 UK census, in Northern Ireland, reports 1,573,319 people born on the island of Ireland. The combined total is 5,182,875."

As the area covered includes both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, it is inappropriate to have the flag of either state next to the geographical description "Ireland". To that end, I had changed the flag to one which represented, and still represents, the whole of the island - as that is what the combined figure represents. I have therefore also reverted a revert of my initial edit by User:Windyjarhead.

I would also like to point out that I do not appreciate being goaded nor childishly called names. --Setanta747 (talk) 10:53, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Francis Bacon (painter)
I am hoping some members can take a look at the Francis Bacon page. Bacon was born in Ireland, the child of an Australian father and an Irish mother, all grandparents were English. He was raised in Ireland till age 16 when he ran away to London. He is listed on Wikipedia as a British artist, which I am disputing. My arguements are listed here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Francis_Bacon_(painter)#Evidence_that_Francis_Bacon.E2.80.99s_Nationality_was_Irish —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.114.226.172 (talk) 16:15, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not surprised that he (and many others born in Ireland) is " listed on Wikipedia as a British artist". There are certain people who seem to spend all their time trawling the Wiki pages searching for Irish people they can re-classify as British simply because they were born before 1922 (unbelievable but true!).Hohenloh 17:27, 21 October 2008 (UTC)