Talk:Iron Ring Clock

{{Old AfD multi |date=2006 November 30 |result=no consensus |page={{{page|Iron_Ring_Clock}} |date2=6 September 2020 |result2=Merge |page2=Iron Ring Clock (2nd nomination)}}

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Offshoot
Added this page as an offshoot to the section on the McMaster University page. Linked the clock page and the Iron Ring page to this page. Burtonpe

Largest?
just over 1m inside diameter, is the largest in the world. Nonsense. See Tire - if they aren't iron rings, I don't know what to call them and one of these locos had driving wheels 7' 9" (2360 mm) in diameter. -- RHaworth 04:07, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

In this sense, the term 'iron ring' only refers to the rings as worn by Canadian (and some American) engineers. Check out the page on iron rings for a bit of the history. There are many large iron rings around, but they're all roughly 2 feet ID, making the clock's iron ring the largest that we know of. If anyone can reference a larger one, then I guess that claim will have to go.... Burtonpe 13:46, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

So, um, how do you read it?
Since the article says it's hard to read, why not explain how you read it.69.157.16.143 18:59, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

New additions
Added in a section on reading the clock....the pic isn't the greatest (kinda dark), still trying to find a better one.

Also reinserted the line about the clock being well-known on campus (removed by someone who felt it was Point-of-View) and cited source to back that up.

Other minor grammatical changes.

Picture Replacement
Reinserted the picture of the clock team; it had been deleted because of incorrect copyright information.

Burtonpe 03:25, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

How is this not a vanity page?
I don't make Wikipedia pages for every project I'm involved in.


 * Neither do I. I don't believe it's a vanity page because it's about a recognizable and unique aspect of the McMaster University campus. It's the only example of student-designed, student-built, and paritally student-funded artwork on campus, and has received recognition both at the campus level and the national level.  You can verify this by following some of the reference links.  Burtonpe 15:53, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Um, this obviously is a vanity page. If anything, you (presumably Patrick Burton, creator of the thing) shouldn't be writing it. ralian 20:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Does the school have an art department? It is hard to imagine that the art students have never designed and built a work of art. Edison 00:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Edison...it's good to see someone taking such an interest in the clock :) The school does indeed have an excellent art department, but to our knowledge none of their work is on public, permanent display on campus.  All of the prominent artwork on campus is done by professional artists, with the exception of the clock.Burtonpe 12:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Reorg and update
Reorganized and updated the page a bit, sorted things into headings and added 'future plans' section. Burtonpe 00:40, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Misleading title
The article says it has "iron rings" and that they are "the largest iron rings in the world" then says they are stainless steel rings. This meas that they contain at least 10% chromium. The article should be renamed "Stainless steel ring clock." Above someone pointed out that countless iron rings larger than this have been made. I note that turbines contain iron alloy rings far larger than these. Burtonpe says: the term 'iron ring' only refers to the rings as worn by Canadian (and some American) engineers." This is parsing, saying that "Words mean what I want them to mean" making a bold claim and then retreating into personalized word definitions which allow a small claim to seem like a larger one. "Largest replica of a piece of jewelry" might be accurate, but it would be original research if no independent source is provided to veerify the assertion. Perhaps engineers in Canada wear stainless steel rings and call them "iron rings" but I have not heard of this practice in the U.S. A source for this would improve the article. Edison 14:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Edison, please follow the link for iron ring for more info on this, including sources which cite some of my above claims; I don't believe it's necessary to recite the sources of all the linked articles. Iron rings as worn by Canadian engineers were originally made of iron, but modern ones are made of stainless so they last longer and don't leave orange stains on wearers' fingers; regardless of their material, they are called 'iron rings'.  The city of Sudbury has a giant nickel (right), which is called a nickel, even though it is not made entirely of nickel, or of the same metallurgical makeup as a nickel, or even of the same design as a regular nickel.  The stainless rings in the clock represent the iron rings worn by Canadian and some American engineers, which can be made of iron or of stainless, which is where the name of the clock and of the article comes from.  Burtonpe 15:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The article badly needs a sentence in the introduction explaining that "iron ring" here refers to a tradional piece of jewelry worn by Canadian engineers. A Wikilink is not sufficient context, when readers unfamiliar with the tradition will assume it just the juxtaposition of the words "iron" and "ring" and not click on it. Thanks. Edison 17:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Edison, inserted a more clear reference to the use of the term iron ring in the opening paragraph, and removed the 'unclear' tag. Thanks for the comment.  Burtonpe 17:51, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Timekeeping
Regardless of the article surviving the AfD, I wonder why the clock uses a synchronous motor. The article says it occasionally shows the incorrect time due to power interruptions. In addition, the 60 Kz or 50 Hz power is a poor time standard in the era of quartz crystal timing and atomic clock based radio time standards. The power frequency drops when demand on the electrical system is high, and may vary plus or minus 30 seconds  or more in terms of integrated frequency. A stepping motor driven by a circuit synchronized to radio received standard time with battery backup would be a more impressive statement of engineering technology, without changing the general appearance.Edison 17:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The synchro motor was picked for a variety of reasons. Firstly, our research into the topic showed that the frequency of electricity is stable enough to meet our timekeeping needs, keeping in mind that the clock must be reset every 6 months anyway to cope with daylight savings time.  Secondly, it is a simple integrated solution; one component which both drives the mechanism and keeps the time.  Thirdly, the use of the systems you describe above would have been beyond our abilities as undergrad mechanical engineering students; receiving a signal, reading the time displayed on the clock, deciding if the clock was incorrect compared to the signal, and converting that signal into physical corrections would indeed have been more impressive and without doubt more accurate, but the project was already at the limit of what we could accomplish (in fact it took us four months longer than the school year to complete it).  We felt that simplicity and success was preferable to elegant failure.  All that being said, a system incorporating feedback and automatic correction has been discussed by the group as a possible future project, should we ever have excess time and money. Burtonpe 17:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * A comment regarding the varying frequency. The frequency doesn't drop when demand is high... it drops when there is an undersupply of power. Any loss in frequency is later compensated for by purposely oversupplying power to the electrical system. The difference in time is only a mere few seconds, not 30 seconds as suggested. --74.109.149.7 19:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Show me the blueprints
The illustrations do not convey much of an idea of the design or complexity of the device. See Epicyclic gearing, Differential (mechanics), Balance wheel, or Escapement, which are examples of gear mechanisms. I'm not saying this devices uses those, but the article mentioned a Geneva drive which would be a great start for an illustration (ideally animated) of the principle of operation. For it to be a school project, cad documents, blueprints or similar design drawings must have been required, and some of those would improve the article. Edison 23:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't be a pain in the ass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.218.216.227 (talk • contribs)


 * Hi Edison, I'll try to dredge up and post some of the CAD. Burtonpe 12:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Major change
I made substantial changes to this page to make it less of a vanity article. I incorporated most of the information from the sections into the main section, since it's not important the details of fundraising or the thesis supervisor.

I also deleted the entire section on 'future plans': - Possible installation of panels matching the doorframe to cover the black structural steel base frame, for aesthetic reasons. - Use of PLC control for time changes; possible use of remote controls via the internet (the clock is in a WiFi hotspot) to change the time. Currently the displayed time is changed through manual manipulation of switches in the clock's electrical system, located with the clock. - Machining of a beveled base in the bottom ring to help bearings that support the bottom ring track properly. This would be a major retrofit as the rings each weigh over 100kg and are difficult to move. - Separate the top and bottom rings to inspect the internal bearings for wear; this would require the manufacture of special tools to lift the top ring.

These things are unencyclopaedic, original research, and far more detail than anybody likely cares about.Stearnsbrian 04:28, 15 July 2007 (UTC)