Talk:Iron law of wages/OldVersionTalk

The iron law of wages declares that wages can never rise above the minimum requisite to keep the laborer in bare existence as a laborer. Any increase in wages above this height will lead to an increase in population, and then the competition of increased numbers for employment will force wages down again to the minimum.

Ludwig von Mises argues that if one adopts its reasoning in order to demonstrate that in the long run no rise in the average wage rate above the minimum is possible, one must also imply that no fall in the average rate can occur.[1]

The title of a pamphlet published in 1817 by the classical economist David Ricardo, it was later adopted by Karl Marx and influenced his early pessimistic views about the possibility of workers benefiting from capitalism.

The Iron Law of Wages Exceprt from Ricardo's The Principles of Political Economy and Taxation

In the natural advance of society, the wages of labour will have a tendency to fall, as far as they are regulated by supply and demand; for the supply of labourers will continue to increase at the same rate, while the demand for them will increase at a slower rate... I say that, under these circumstances, wages would fall if they were regulated only by the supply and demand of labourers; but we must not forget that wages are also regulated by the prices of the commodities on which they are expended.

As population increases, these necessaries will be constantly rising in price, because more labour will be necessary to produce them. If, then, the money wages of labour should fall, while every commodity on which the wages of labour were expended rose, the labourer would be doubly affected, and would be soon totally deprived of subsistence... These, then, are the laws by which wages are regulated, and by which the happiness of far the greatest part of every community is governed. Like all other contracts, wages should be left to the fair and free competition of the market, and should never be controlled by the interference of the legislature.

The clear and direct tendency of the poor laws is in direct opposition to those obvious principles: it is not, as the legislature benevolently intended, to amend the condition of the poor, but to deteriorate the condition of both poor and rich; instead of making the poor rich, they are calculated to make the rich poor; and while the present laws are in force, it is quite in the natural order of things that the fund for the maintenance of the poor should progressively increase till it has absorbed all the net revenue of the country, or at least so much of it as the state shall leave to us, after satisfying its own never-failing demands for the public expenditure.

Suspected Original Research: The Iron Law of Wages was adopted by Marx
The current text reads:


 * The term iron law of wages comes from the title of a pamphlet published in 1817 by classical economist David Ricardo. It was later adopted by Karl Marx, and this theory influenced his pessimistic early views regarding the capability of capitalism to enhance the lives of working people.

The notion that Marx adopted the iron law of wages is suspect as original research. If, within 48 hours, a verifiable source is not provided, or a request made for time to obtain such a source, I will delete the final sentence of the quote above.

There are many sources listing David Ricardo's Iron law of Wages, such as http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/ricardo-wages.html. I always associated David Ricardo with his pronouncement of the iron law of wages, even though he may not have directly used the phrase in his works. --Elb2000 21:11, 6 March 2006 (UTC)Elb2000


 * I looked at your source. It states Ricardo's theory thus:
 * On the contrary, a rise of wages, from the circumstance of the labourer being more liberally rewarded, or from a difficulty of procuring the necessaries on which wages are expended, does not, except in some instances, produce the effect of raising price, but has a great effect in lowering profits. In the one case, no greater proportion of the annual labour of the country is devoted to the support of the labourers; in the other case, a larger portion is so devoted.
 * It should be very clear from your source that Ricardo believed that real wages may rise. --BostonMA 21:23, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * However, since your source does make the claim (which I think is quite false) that Ricardo held the view that real wages could not rise (even when quoting him otherwise) we may discuss that claim in the article, not attribute it as fact, but merely mention that certain authors, for example at a Jesuit University, claim that Ricardo held the view that wages must necessarily remain at subsistance levels, but then point out critics who disagree, and finally quote what Ricardo actually said. --BostonMA 21:30, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Please note, that the question is not one of factuality, but of verifiable sources. Nevertheless, I will point out that Marx was a critic of the iron law of wages. --BostonMA 23:14, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Ricardo's theory of value is not the same as Iron Law of wages
I have reverted an edit which purports to show that Ricardo adhered to the Iron law of wages. The text quoted from Principles of Political Economy and Taxation espouses a theory other than the Iron Law of Wages. Please compare what the Iron Law of Wages states, and what the quoted text state. At the very best, deriving one from the other is Original Research. However, my reading of Ricardo is that he believed that the distribution of income between various classes was determined in part by government policy -- which is quite contrary to the Iron Law of Wages. --BostonMA 21:14, 6 March 2006 (UTC)