Talk:Irreligion in Malaysia

Neutrality concerns
I have concerns about this article's neutrality. VR talk 00:52, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * the article currently says "Ex-Muslims are often threatened with murder and other forms of violence, often rape for ex-Muslim women". But the source actually attributes this to a single person "Nurulhuda" (not her actual name). When the source doesn't say something in its voice, how can we say that in wikivoice? This statement is also under "official status" - yet there is no indication that Malaysia officially sanctions death and rape threats against ex-Muslims.
 * the article mentions that "Christian pastor Raymond Koh has been detained since February 2017". What's that got to do with irreligion in Malaysia? This is also an example of WP:SYNTH given that the user used a source that connected intolerance of atheists to intolerance of Christians, and another source that connected intolerance of Christians to detention of Raymond Koh to conclude that this detention was related to intolerance of atheists.
 * "Another 60% support fatal stoning as penalty for adultery." This is also of dubious relevance to this article.
 * "[ Najib Razak ] also refused to allow Muslims the right to apostasy". This is misleading. The source says that Razak said "We will not tolerate any demands or right to apostasy by Muslims." There is no indication in the source that Razak passed any legislation or policy that banned conversion out of Islam in Malaysia. A better wording would be that "Najib Razak stated that..."
 * I would like to firmly state that this article was not written out of personal bias against Malaysia or its people. I will move the first line to a more appropriate section. I must admit that I am not sure what should be done about the wikivoice issues you have mentioned. The second point you have brought up was merely an attempt to provide context for the comparison between treatment of Christians and atheists, a comparison created by the sources, not myself. As for the third, per our own article on the subject, adultery is "extramarital sex that is considered objectionable on social, religious, moral, or legal grounds", so it is most definitely of relevance here. You are completely right about the final issue, and I will reword it immediately. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 01:43, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I removed the statements which are obviously off-topic, as they also cast a negative light on the dominant Muslim group. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 02:04, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * , Wikipedia is not censored. Casting a negative light on any group is never a valid reason to remove content. I already explained my reason for including the statements above, and I do not see how they are off-topic. Again, I am not deliberately trying to offend or speak badly about anyone. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 02:10, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Because this article is only about the topic of irreligion, we do not need any information about adultery. A brief statement about persecution of religious minorities, such as Christianity in Malaysia, may be acceptable for comparison, but any further details will be off-topic. –LaundryPizza03 ( d c̄ ) 02:16, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Again, our own article on adultery draws a connection between its opposition and religion. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 02:20, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Although all of VR's points seem reasonable to me, the most concerning one to me by far is the first, that an unsourced claim appeared as fact on the Main Page. We don't have a reliable source that says that "atheists in Malaysia are often threatened with rape and murder". We have a reliable source that says that someone said so once.
 * In fact, it's not clear to me that even Nurulhuda made as strong a statement as stated on the Main Page. Specifically, she said "Death threats ... are common.", but it's not spelled out to whom. Perhaps she meant to any atheist, but it seems rather more likely to me that she meant only to ex-Muslim atheists. Indeed, perhaps she only meant to those belonging to groups such as hers. Rotcaeroib (talk) 02:41, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I understand your point. I'm afraid I can no longer defend this particular claim, although I would like to know your reasoning for opposing the others. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 03:12, 4 November 2022 (UTC)


 * I also removed "While atheism is not technically illegal in the country, non-Muslims, atheist or otherwise, as well as Muslims who do not follow the Sunni tradition, are widely persecuted, due to laws against blasphemy." Where is the source that says all non-Muslims are "widely persecuted" in Malaysia? Or that non-Sunni Muslims are "widely persecuted" in Malaysia? VR talk 05:29, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * , it does not feel like you are assuming good faith. You have not directly replied to anything I have said, only deleted content and accused me of being biased, which I assure you I am not. You also removed the lines you had initially complained about. If you object to the statements not being attributed to the person who said them, I will do so, but where would be a more appropriate section to include them? An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 10:30, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I have not "accused me of being biased". My comments are strictly related to the content. And not all verifiable content belongs on wikipedia (see WP:VNOT). So the opinion of one unnamed and unnotable individual, though published in an RS, may not be WP:DUE for this article. Also the claim that non-Muslims are "widely persecuted" in Malaysia is WP:EXCEPTIONAL and would require strong sourcing. Even then, we'd need to be specific about what kind of persecution they are facing, as "widely persecuted" can have a range of meanings.VR talk 13:33, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I suppose you are right that you have not accused me outright, but your replies and edit summary appeared to imply I have bias against Muslims, which is entirely untrue. In creating this article, I was only trying to expand Wikipedia via reliable sources, which I admit that I may have misinterpreted. I'm not your enemy and I'm not trying to argue. You have made several valid points, and I can accept your edits. I only wish to clarify, once and for all, that we are on the same side and that I am not trying to force my POV on anyone. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 14:56, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Awesome, thanks.VR talk 17:51, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * You are very welcome. May I remove the tag, or is there anything else you would like changed? An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 17:53, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Let me read this article one more time. Another question: do you think this article should be moved to "Atheism in Malaysia" (similar to Atheism in the United States)? "Irreligion" is a broader topic that includes agnostics and secularism, but this article doesn't cover that.VR talk 14:35, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
 * "Atheism in the United States" seems to be an oddity in regards to its title, as typing "Atheism in..." into the search bar shows mostly redirects to other articles, while there are many entitled "Irreligion in...". I only focused on atheism because that was what most sources focused on, but hopefully if any reliable sources begin discussing other forms of irreligion, those can someday be included. An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 17:10, 12 November 2022 (UTC)