Talk:Irving Gottesman/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.'' {|class="wikitable" style="text-align:left" ! width="30" | Rate ! width="300"| Attribute !           | Review Comment Some word choice here sounds a bit jargony and could be made more accessible:
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 * Under Studies on delinquency and violence:
 * Gottesman presented evidence on how genes modulate criminal behavior, citing higher concordance for such behavior among identical twins separated at birth.
 * Under Awards
 * Gottesman has won plaudits from British, Japanese, and American professional associations. --> Maybe just "...has been recognized by many professional organizations across the UK, Japan, and the United States." "Plaudits" seems too esoteric.
 * Fixed. Churn and change (talk) 23:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Some word choice sounds a bit awkward:
 * In the lead:


 * Medicine and psychology now use the perspective pioneered by Gottesman and his co-researchers to investigate how and why mental disorders arise. --> This sounds anthropomorphic. It might be better to specify who or what specific professions subscribe to Gottesman's perspectives.  For instance, you might say, "Researchers and practitioners in medicine and psychology..."  But, see below before you change this.
 * Since you suggested cutting down the lead, took this out. Churn and change (talk) 23:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Some grammar/tense issues. Should be past, not present tense when referring to what was said in publications:
 * Under Work on IQ:
 * Gottesman explains this as genetic influence becoming insignificant in the face of the privations of a deprived environment.
 * Under Humanistic views:
 * He holds chance events are a third element determining how people behave and what they become, and the interplay of all three elements is known only at the level of probabilities, and not as fixed and precise quantities.
 * ..he provides chapters dedicated to patients' describing their own experiences with the disease, and of their family members' verbalizing their troubled emotions.
 * Fixed, changed to the "has held" type tense. Churn and change (talk) 23:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

(Will do a MOS check in a day or two, or will ask another editor to do so. My MOS knowledge is not exactly up-to-snuff and will take some time.)
 * Per WP:GNGA, a GA doesn't have to conform to all of MOS; it is pretty much impossible for any single person to verify all of MOS. Some of the things to look for, such as tense, you already caught. I have no problem with a second pair of eyes here. Churn and change (talk) 23:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
 * OK. Well, I can just do a quick check now.  Be finished tonight.  I, Jethrobot  drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 00:24, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅. The only thing I could notice was an inconsistent abbreviation of PhD.  Sometimes it's PhD, other times it's Ph.D.  I know both are acceptable, but it might be better to stick to one or the other.  The other was that under "Awards," the acronym NARSAD is not spelled out for readers.   I, Jethrobot  drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 03:30, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Churn and change (talk) 03:37, 5 November 2012 (UTC)


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Other than the links below, the content is adequately sourced. A couple of sources seem problematic, but nothing major. They are:
 * This Maquis "Who's who" website does not verify the claim about his membership. This source might be better to use.
 * Fixed. Churn and change (talk) 23:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)


 * This book does not provide page info about where the information can be found in the book.
 * Fixed. Page info was actually in the superscript (59), moved it to the source section so it is more visible. Churn and change (talk) 23:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Ohhhh, so that's what that was! Sneaky, sneaky.  I, Jethrobot  drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 00:24, 5 November 2012 (UTC)


 * This link for an award is a deadlink.
 * Fixed. Found another source. Churn and change (talk) 23:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

In the lead:
 * Medicine and psychology now use the perspective pioneered by Gottesman and his co-researchers to investigate how and why mental disorders arise. --> This sentence seems problematic to me because although Gottesman's work is well-described through the article, and that he has received many awards, I'm having trouble finding explicit discussion of how his work has been used by others in the article.
 * Took this out, as part of shortening the lead. Churn and change (talk) 23:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)


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Covers early life in impressive detail (I especially like the story about his thesis being initially rejected and then accepted upon appeal to Psychological Monographs) and covers several avenues of scientific work through his early, late, and present research. Also covers awards, publications, and memberships. Seems like a pretty good breadth for article about an established professor.

None of the sections suffer from being too long, except for the lead. The lead does need to be shortened. I believe sentences in the second section describing his background can be removed or shortened. Also, the intended audiences of his work probably do not belong in the lead, such as:
 * He has published several books on the topics he has researched, one of which won an award for a writing style understandable to the lay person, but covering material in enough depth to be of interest to experts in the field.
 * Shortened lead, by compressing the background part, and sentences like the above. Churn and change (talk) 23:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)


 * His award-winning 1991 book, Schizophrenia Genesis: The Origins of Madness...It is also available in Japanese and German. --> This sounds somewhat promotional; might be better to say "it was also translated into Japanese and German." Also, rather than say that it was "award winning," you could just say what award it actually won in a separate statement.
 * Fixed; now mentions the exact award, with citation to a source. Churn and change (talk) 23:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Otherwise, no glaring evidence of bias against other lines of research. Describes the conflict between subject's work and protesting groups in a fair manner with proper attributions.

Nominated for a speedy deletion a ways back when it was a stub, but no other conflicts since then. Seems just fine.
 * I think that speedy deletion was utter nonsense. He is highly notable. Churn and change (talk) 23:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
 * J'agree. I, Jethrobot  drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 00:24, 5 November 2012 (UTC)


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The current image has a non-free fair-use rationale tag, with the claim that it "serves to identify the subject of the article," who is also a BLP. An extensive search has been done by with attempts to contact copyright holders, but with no success. I won't make a big deal about this given the legwork you've done, but has Gottesman been contacted directly about this? He may be willing to submit a photo via OTRS.
 * Hmmm, I am in contact with Gottesman, but the problem is the copyright is owned by the photographer. Asking him to get somebody to take a photo and then release it to WikiCommons won't work. That is why I contacted Prof. DiLalla who has taken and published photos of him, but she hasn't released the copyright (I suspect that has to do more with the problems with uploading to WikiCommons with all its tags and what not and a general aversion to dealing with anything legal, considering we are largely anonymous).Churn and change (talk) 23:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I just thought Gottesman might own an appropriate image he would be willing to submit himself. I, Jethrobot  drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 00:24, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I tried that with another prof: Jon Krosnick. Ended up with File:Jon_Krosnick_2012.jpg, in the process of being deleted because the photographer owns the copyright, not Krosnick. Churn and change (talk) 00:44, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
 * OK. I would still try and see if you can get anything reasonable.  I am sure at least some profs understand copyright and have their own photos.  :)

Could use a caption-- for instance, where is he? University of Minnesota?
 * Probably, but source doesn't say that explicitly. The books in front of him are his; so I added that as the captions. Churn and change (talk) 23:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Recommend promotion to GA. I, Jethrobot  drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 03:44, 5 November 2012 (UTC)