Talk:Irving Saladino

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''' "...he is the current South American record holder."

He is not even South American! Irving Saladino is Panamanian, therefore, he is Central American. US people's ignorance makes them believe that all countries below the US/Mexico border are "South America", which is NOT true. South American countries start with Colombia and end with Argentina and Chile. Mexico, Guatemala, Belize, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Panama (along with all the Caribbean countries) are NOT part of South America.'''  --Fredyrod 01:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


 * While you are arguing geography, you forget he is an athlete. In the IAAF, Panama is the northernmost country in the IAAF South American region CONSUDATLE. That makes him, for IAAF purposes, in the South America federation and that is why he holds the South American record. The IAAF was founded in SWEDEN and is currently headquatered in Monaco. It is headed by a man from Senegal. This isn't "US people's" ignorance. Take the issue up with the IAAF and take your anti-US bias with you. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * While you are arguing in terms of “IAAF purposes”, you forget this is not an IAAF website. This is an ENCYCLOPEDIA, thus the article has to be written in encyclopedic terms.   If Panama is considered by the IAAF as “the northernmost country in the IAAF South American region”, then the article should say (more or less) something like “… according to the IAAF criterion, he is the current South American record holder.”  It may be true that IAAF considers Panama as South America, but it is a FACT that actually Panama IS NOT part of South America in any sense, not geographically, not culturally and not politically, therefore, since this is an encyclopedia, the article should be explicit in that sense, because there are different points of view here and the idea of an encyclopedia is not to show any of those points of view over the others, but reflect the overall situation.  That problem would not exist if Saladino was Peruvian, since Peru is clearly part of South America in all senses.   I guess that if tomorrow IAAF decides to consider Panama as the easternmost country of its Asian region, then Saladino would be the current Asian record holder as well, which would be as ridiculous as to consider him as a "South American".   I had to exaggerate the example to explain my point.  The IAAF may have been founded in Sweeden, may be located in Monaco and may be headed from a Senegalese, but that just make them as ignorant as US people in terms of geography and maybe in other matters as well.--Fredyrod (talk) 14:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Any discussion of it belongs at the IAAF page, not on the bio of an individual athlete who has absolutely no say over it. While your contention is debateable, it is not "fact" as you put it, that debate belongs elsewhere. Nor is it a matter of ignorance, as you so rudely have claimed twice now. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:41, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I know this kind of discussion does not belong to any individual’s bio page, and that is why we are explaining our points using this “discussion” page and not in the main one.  If I was “rude”, I would easily have edited unilaterally the article to reflect my point of view, which I have not done (and have no intention to do either).  While on the one hand you say Saladino is an athlete who has “absolutely no say over it”, on the other hand you agree with his bio, which does say (or at least, does imply) that he is South American by saying that “he became the South American record holder”, and that is exactly what I am trying to correct.


 * Are you arguing me about “facts”? Well, I’m going to easily prove my point.  As I say, this is not an IAAF page but an ENCYCLOPEDIA.   IAAF may consider Panama as to be part of South America, but that does not make Panama to be so.  If you take one minute to go to Wikipedia’s article about Panama, you will see that it clearly and categorically affirms that this country is part of Central America, period.  Specifically, the article says “Panama is located in Central America, bordering both the Caribbean Sea and the Pacific Ocean, between Colombia and Costa Rica”.  Now, go to the articles about "South America" and about "Central America" and tell me where those articles put Panama on.  Surprised?  I don't think so.  Then, Panamanians, including Irving Saladino, ARE NOT South Americans but Central Americans.   But this article, says (or at least implies) that Irving Saladino is South American and that's what I have been talking about all this time, because he IS NOT.  With all this argument, I already proved my point using ENCYCLOPEDIC information (FACTS) thus I hope you don't try again to focus this discussion in IAAF’s terms.


 * Now moving on into your field, if you go to the IAAF page, you will clearly see that its “NACACAA” corresponds to its North American, Central American and Caribbean Athletic Association.  And since I already demonstrated that Panama BELONGS to Central America, then Panama should be part of the NACACAA and not part of the CONSUDATLE.  Even more, if you take the time to go to CONSUDATLE’S website, you will see that Panama does not even appear in the small map showed in their main page.  And you know why?  Just because Panama does not fit in to that map since it would clearly appear as an unattractive appendix that does not belong to it.  Just in case, I am aware that “unattractiveness” is something 100% subjective, but I used that term only to make my point and you know that the rest of my argument about Panama being part of Central America is not based on subjectivity at all.  Compare CONSUDATLE’S and IAAF’s regions maps and you will notice that Panama does not appear in one of them but does appear in the other one.  When doing so, notice that IAAF locates Israel as part of Europe, despite not having any common limit with any country considered by them as to be "European" and despite being clearly completely surrounded by Asian and African Countries.  Capricious, I know, and IAAF is committing the same mistake with Panama.


 * Dear Nite, all this may be confusing for you, I know, but that is the kind of things that ignorant people do everyday and the rest of us have to live with. In fact, I don’t know if it is more ignorance to commit those kinds of mistakes (as IAAF did) or to try to endorse them when someone else tries to amend them or at least tries to point them out.--Fredyrod (talk) 23:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No, I'm not arguing the "facts" with you, because this is not the place to do it. That discussion should happen at the talk page of the IAAF article. Because this is an encyclopedia and not a geopolitical forum, the purpose here is to report FACTS, not what we think should be a fact. FACT: The governing body of track and field is the IAAF. Fact: The IAAF considers Panama to be part of CONSUDATLE. Fact: CONSUDATLE says Saladino is the South American record holder. Do you dispute any of these facts? If not, then there is no point in further discussion with you. BTW, on a personal note: My household contains 2 Panamanian passports and a Panamanian PE card. Just so you know where I am coming from. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:48, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "FACT: The governing body of track and field is the IAAF."
 * "Fact: The IAAF considers Panama to be part of CONSUDATLE."
 * "Fact: CONSUDATLE says Saladino is the South American record holder. "
 * "Do you dispute any of these facts?"


 * I am not disputing any of those "facts", but those facts don't make my facts less factual than yours, and this discussion is actually about my facts and not about yours.  I don’t know if you had the time to read what I wrote, and if so, you will understand that I have nothing to say about your facts.   I don’t even care about the IAAF being as ignorant as to place Panama in South America while I already demonstrated that Panama is IN FACT located in Central America.   I don’t care about that.


 * I do care, however, and that has been my point all this time, about the article saying or implying that Saladino is “South American”.  As I said before, it may be a fact (as you just said) that the IAAF considers Panama as to be part of South America, but that doesn’t make Panamanians to be South Americans.  That is why I tell you that your facts don't make my facts less factual.   They also consider Israel to be part of Europe and that doesn’t make Israel to be so.   Could you argue that someone from Israel is European?   (Please answer).   That has been my point all this time.   The article has to be reviewed so the redaction reflects that, even though he holds the South American record according to the [incorrect and inappropriate] classification of the IAAF, he is actually Panamanian, therefore Central American.


 * Since the purpose of an encyclopedia is “to report facts”, let me ask you if you agree with the following facts:
 * - Panama is located in Central America.
 * - Irving Saladino was born in Panama, therefore he is Panamanian.
 * - As a Panamanian, Irving Saladino is Central American; therefore he is NOT South American.
 * - Saladino is the first Central American male that has won an Olympic Gold Medal.
 * (Please comment those statements saying if each one is (or is not) a fact, especially the fourth one).


 * Once again, don’t forget that this is not an IAAF website; so this article is not just to report sporting achievements. We are REPORTING FACTS about Irving Saladino, the human being, who also happens to be an athlete.   He is first human, and then an athlete.   As an athlete he may hold a South American record, ok, but as a person, he is Central American and the article has to be clear about that.  Could you argue that?


 * Moreover, we already know the article says that he is the South American record holder, but now it also says that he has “also the first Olympic gold medal ever won in a men's event by an athlete from Central America”.  Any contradiction?  Yes.   According to your opinion, the statement about Central America should not be in the article because Saladino is actually "South American" for IAAF purposes.   Is he really?   If we are here "reporting facts", could you say that it is a fact that no male athlete from Central America has ever won any Olympic gold medal?  (Please answer).


 * I know it is very easy for you to wash your hands blaming the IAAF for wrongfully considering Panama as part of South America, hence it is very easy for you to accept the article saying or implying something that is NOT a fact, just because someone committed a mistake.  I am not that lazy, so I cannot accept easily someone else’s mistake without, at least, point it out.  I respect if you want to be lazy, but don’t expect the rest of us to be the same.


 * About your “personal note”, I think it is completely out of place and I don’t care either about where are you from since I don't know you and I have nothing personal against you, but this discussion is even worst if you are Panamanian or has Panamanian relatives or has something to do with Panama and still defends that IAAF mistake or defends the content of this Wikipedia article.


 * I want you to argue me that Irving Saladino (the person) is not Central American but South American. Could you?  (please answer)  Is this article only about the athlete and not really about the person? (please answer)--Fredyrod (talk) 19:31, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No. I have no intention of littering this talk page with an issue that has no bearing on the article. Saladino's notability is based solely on track and field competition. The only mention of South America is that he holds the South American records. The IAAF classifies Panama as South America. Accept it and move on with life. Besides, the guy lives in Brazil anyway. He left Panama. And yes, you do have something personal against me when you tell me that it is "even worse" that I would defend the article. I'm done filling this talk page with a pointless discussion. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I said "this discussion is even worst". I have NOTHING personal against Niteshift, but against your opinion or your POV.  Learn the difference.


 * Saladino may be training in Brazil, may be living in Brazil, but he is STILL Panamanian, no matter if you like it or not, therefore he is CENTRAL AMERICAN.  I haven't seen him competing under a Brazilian flag.  Have you? (Please answer)--Fredyrod (talk) 18:05, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

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