Talk:Isabella of France

Faithful Representation of Isabella's Features?
I have recently been reading Isabella and the Strange Death of Edward II (2003) by Paul Doherty. On page 11 of this book, Mr. Doherty states the second son of Edward II of England and Isabella of France, John of Eltham, Earl of Cornwall is buried at Westminster Abbey. He states Queen Isabella's, "face and striking features are faithfully represented by a carved statue which decorates John of Eltham's tomb..."

I began to search the Internet to see if I could find a photograph of the tomb of John of Eltham, Earl of Cornwall and the statue of Isabella of France at Westminster Abbey. I can find no mention of the burial of John of Eltham, 9th Earl of Cornwall, at Westminster Abbey on the Abbey's official website, or any other website I can find that claims to provide a list of those buried at the Abbey. I have emailed the Abbey librarian to clarify this and ask if there are any sources or publications that have a photograph of Isabella's statue.

I was wondering if anyone has a photograph of this statue that is in the public domain, or if someone can pop over to Westminster Abbey to take a photograph (if that is allowed, of course.) If a photograph of a statue that has a good representation of Isabella's actual features were added to her Wikipedia page, I think that would be grand.

My Wiki-interest in this subject was piqued by reading the disussion page of Edward, the Black Prince ,who was the grandson of Isabella of France and son of Philippa of Hainault (Philippa was Isabella's daughter-in-law.)  Some people seem to think Philippa of Hainault had African ancestry because her son Edward of Woodstock was called the "Black Prince" and there was a physical description of Philippa of Hainault given by a contemporary, the Bisop of Exeter, probably Walter de Stapledon, that purports to described Philippa as having skin that was "brown all over" and a nose that was flat and broad, hair that was "blue black" and eyes that were "blackish brown". (The earliest printed account of Edward of Woodstock's sobriquet states it refers to the color of his armor, not the color of his skin or any other part of him.)

After many Wiki-adventures traipsing through the ancestry of Philippa of Hainault (details of which are on her discussion page) I can find no evidence any of her ancestors had anything close to an African connection, although I think I vaguely remember something about one or more of her female ancestors going on Crusade...hmmmmm.

If you look at the page of one of the other sons of Philippa of Hainault and Edward III of England, John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster , who was a full sibling of Edward the Black Prince you will see a painting of John of Gaunt which, if accurate, indicates he had quite dark hair and eyes. This is proof that at least one of the children of Philippa of Hainault had some dark features.

My interest in Isabella's features stems from these discussions on the other pages, because there is some evidence she had "dark" ancestry. Isabella's mother, Joan I of Navarre, was said to have "Arabic" features, which Isabella inherited. Modern Navarre is in the Basque region of Spain, which would be a much more plausible ancestral connection to Moors or people of African descent. Isabella was said to have inherited the blond hair of her father Philip IV of France and the "Arabic" features of her mother. My source for this is the same as the one listed above for the location of Isabella's statue in Westminster Abbey.

In essense, what I am saying is there is more evidence of "dark" ancestry in the paternal line of Edward, the Black Prince. Everyone else seems to be arguing there is "dark" ancestry in his maternal line.

I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything. I have no cultural axe to grind. It is pure intellectual curiosity. I want to know what Isabella looked like because she is such a fascinating historical figure, as is her husband Edward II. (OK, I admit this started as research on a novel in which one character is very loosely based upon Edward II. No Isabella-type figure appears in my novel.)

My own ancestry is Irish, British, and Welsh, so there you go.

Jsternsp 12:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * A source inside Westminster Abbey has responded quickly and comprehensively:


 * Yes, John of Eltham is buried in Westminster Abbey. His magnificent alabaster tomb is now in St Edmund’s chapel. It is thought that this monument had been moved from the chapel of St Edward the Confessor, displaced by the tomb of a later king. There is no inscription on the monument. The recumbent effigy shows John dressed in armour carrying a large shield. Around the base of the tomb are carved figures of kings and queens, to represent members of his family. However, none have coats of arms underneath, as weepers do on some others Abbey tombs, to show who the figures are meant to represent. Obviously Queen Isabella would be one of these queens shown but it would only be conjecture as to identification of her statue. So I am afraid there is no statue at the Abbey which can definitely be proved to be Isabella.


 * I will send the Westminster Abbey source the cite from the Doherty book. Maybe that will help.


 * Jsternsp 14:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Read up the ancestry in the article on Philippa of Hainault.Her "darkness" if she was really as dark as the bishop described would have derived from Kuthen of the Cumens,who belonged to a nomadic Western Asian tribe of Turkic origin.Not African.As to one of her ancestors having gone on a crusade, how does that indicate African ancestry? The Saracens weren't sub-Saharan.The bishop also said her hair was "not uncomely" which probably meant silky black and smooth like most Asians.--jeanne (talk) 13:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)--jeanne (talk) 13:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)--jeanne (talk) 13:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Braveheart4.jpg
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Precise birthdate
Does anyone have a precise birthdate for Isabella?Between May and November is rather vague.14:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC)jeanne (talk) BetacommandBot (talk) 04:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but I don't think it is possible to find out the exact birthdate for Isabella. People just did not record birthdays then as we do now, even if the child born was the daughter of a king. According to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, she was born in 'late 1195' (John Carmi Parsons, ‘Isabella (1295–1358)’, Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, Sept 2004; online edn, Jan 2008 (http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/14484, accessed 18 Nov 2008) - subscribers only). Unfortunately, the ODNB does not reference its articles, so I don't know what information this assessment is based on.
 * Ascelin Goel (talk) 11:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

However, I do wish you would make up your minds. The header says "c. 1295", while the text says "probably between May and November 1292". Jhobson1 (talk) 15:22, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Expansion
I've gone through and expanded the article a bit, and fleshed out the in-line citations etc. Will no doubt need a scrub through in terms of copy-editing etc. Hchc2009 (talk) 11:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

The death of Edward, 1327
The last part of this section needs to be rewritten. In particular this sencence (quoting):

"Ian Mortimer, focusing more on contemporary documents from 1327 itself, argues that Roger de Mortimer engineered a fake "escape" for Edward from Berkeley Castle, after which Edward was kept in Ireland, believing he was really evading Mortimer, before finally finding himself free, but unwelcome, after the fall of Isabella and Mortimer, when he made his way to Europe, before subsequently being buried at Gloucester." (End of quote.)

This sentence is very long and I hope someone can rewrite it to improve readability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Urbanus Secundus (talk • contribs) 08:07, 23 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I've broken it up - hopefully it now reads better. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:07, 20 August 2010 (UTC)


 * It's better now, but the sentence is still very long. (It's been over a year so I don't know if your edit still stands.) While it's still a monster, it's at least possible to read it now. Urbanus Secundus (talk) 00:04, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Schama covered the hot poker story in his 2000 doco. He claimed Edward took two days to die. Did Schama make this up? He's been accused of leaving too many things out, but not of fabricating history. Was the poker story a metaphor? Did Edward like hard 'n hot things up his backside? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.33.247.243 (talk) 00:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Is there a reason that Kathryn Warner, author of several books on Edward, including one on his possible survival, is not cited whereas less reliable writers such as Doherty and Weir are?Smlark (talk) 17:50, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Sheriff material...
Plucas58, I've removed the latest additions from the lead about Isabella being the High Sheriff of Cornwall for now. There are a couple of issues here:


 * A minor one: the lead shouldn't contain anything that's not also in the main text. In this case, incidentally, I'd argue that the sheriff point isn't significant to be in the lead and should only be in the main text.
 * The major point though is that the fact is not referenced. You'll need to explain the reliable source of where the information on this has come from (e.g. did it come from a book, or a reliable website, etc.?) There's some more information on how to do this here, but if you need any help with this, I'm very happy to assist - drop me a message either here on on my talk page. Hchc2009 (talk) 16:49, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Isabella's son
Is there any documents on Isabella Cabet's and Roger Mortimer's supposed bastard son, William Knight? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.17.33.39 (talk) 01:18, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I have never read anywhere that Isabella had a son by Mortimer. "William Knight" was obviously the invention of a badly-informed historical romance writer. Oh by the way, it's Capet not Cabet.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:00, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree - there have been attempts to claim it, but none backed up by serious historians or documents. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:05, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "William Knight" was in fact a real person, it's his parentage that I'm asking about. so, what you are saying, is that it is a story, not historically backed up (Is it disproved anywhere, on the other hand)? 75.19.99.139 (talk) 21:58, 31 October 2011 (UTC)