Talk:Isaias Afwerki/Archive 1

Remove rebel tag
I have removed him from the category of rebels. The president of a sovereign state is not a rebel. Meles Zenawi isn't, right? 82.156.100.120 17:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Origin
We should remove all "rumoured" statements, particularly those in the introduction. -- Merhawie (talk) 16:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Name
The name of the president of Eritrea is Isaias Afwerki, as you can see on his own letter ho the Irish prime minister -- Penas 14:28, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Since no one has fixed this I will if no one has any comment. I think the point is obvious.
 * Merhawie 14:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Go ahead. The google results confirm it is more commonly used, too (I always wondered why the "e" was there, if it's pronounced the same as in Amharic, except with an "i"). Yom 16:44, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I have updated the Tigrinya spelling to match how the Eritrean Newspaper spell the President's name (shabait.com: Haddas Ertra Newspaper of July 25, 2014 Page 3). Also I have added references on the "Afewerki"/"Afwerki" issue to show that both are in use. SamuelN77 (talk) 04:59, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The Last Paragraph
Consider the following excerpt from the last paragraph of the article:

''Eritrea has not held any elections since independence and remains a one-party state.[1] Moreover, the government has banned all private media, and according to Reporters without Borders, imprisons more journalists than any other nation in the world.[2][3] The Eritrean constitution was ratified in 1997 by a constituent assembly. In May 2002 all Christian denominations apart from the Catholic, Orthodox and Evangelical Lutheran churches were ordered to close their churches. Hundreds of Christians have been arrested.[4],[5] In the summer of 2005, the Patriarch of the Eritrean Orthodox Church was removed from administrative authority by the government as well.''

Would it not be better to include this material in an article on Eritrean Politics rather than on Isaias Afewerki? I kind of feel like it's steering away from the focus of the article. Also, I was just wondering if it's possible to maybe refer to sources other than BBC? Please let me know your opinions. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.224.46.149 (talk • contribs) 07:08 20 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I tend to agree that this article could become cluttered with discussion of Eritrean politics in general. While it definitely bears mentioning in this article, I think any further discussion of general politics should be included instead in Politics of Eritrea. I'm the one who added the BBC references. Someone kept removing the more critical portions, so I thought it would be better to cite sources. I happened to find relevant articles at the BBC website, so it was less work for me to just cite the BBC. At the time I did share your same concern about having all the references from one site, but in all likelihood, laziness simply got the better of me. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:03, 20 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Someone had removed both the paragraph in question along with its notes. I have restored both. While I am all for improving the text, as discussed above, I do not see the complete removal of information as an improvement. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 04:54, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

It may have been me who made the changes. I took a broad brush stroke to make revisions that I thought were wrong. I saw your repair and decided to do it with a finer brush this time. I had two concerns with your information. The first was that it seemed to be more an analysis of Politics in Eritrea rather than biographical information on the President. My second concern was that some of the information was either wrong or not true. There have indeed been elections but as with most of the things that go on in the country very quiet, and as is typical of the BBC not reported on. -- Merhawie


 * Thank you for adding the clarifications to the article. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Once again, what on Earth does the following statement have to do with Isaias Afewerki?:

'' The Administration has prosecuted the editors of all but three local newspapers for failure to adhere to the Press Law. According to Reporters without Borders, Eritrea imprisons 13 journalists.[2][3] The Eritrean constitution was ratified in 1997 by a constituent assembly. In May 2002 all Christian denominations apart from the Catholic, Orthodox and Evangelical Lutheran churches were ordered to close their churches in respect of the religious regulations in effect since Colonial Eritrea. Hundreds of Christians have been arrested.[4],[5].''

Why isn't there an explaination of how Isaias Afewerki has PERSONALLY AFFECTED such actions. If Gyrofrog was planning to steer away from Isaias Afewerki and talk about religion in Eritrea why does she/he not talk about Eritrea being one of the few nations in the world stabilizing a population with a 50:50 Muslim to Christian ratio? Also, I don't understand why BBC is still the ONLY reference for this article. Why couldn't Gyrofrog take the time to look for other sources? Wikipedia is here to serve the truth, not to present uncritically accepted mainstream propaganda. Since the birth of Eritrea as a sovereign nation, BBC has consistently exhibited negative bias towards the country's policy. Since Isaias Afewerki became president, Eritrea has adopted a socialist self-reliance philosophy and has eliminated all debt to the IMF even though the country was left under the rubble of 30 years war ( http://www.blackelectorate.com/articles.asp?ID=1094). The West used private media and various CIA operatives to try and overturn the Shaebia government, so accordingly, mainstream media agencies like BBC and Reuters have taken part in bias representations of Eritrean leaders and policy (http://www.shabait.com/staging/publish/article_004351.html AND FOR THOSE WHO ARE FIXED ON BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2347291.stm). I politely ask the past and future editors to look further than BBC and Reuters to make various claims and find other sources of information. If the text of this article is not changed soon, I will adjust it myself.

Also read: http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_374.shtml &mdash;the preceding unsigned comment is by 63.224.34.154 (talk • contribs) 06:58, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * By all means, if you are able to cite other sources then please do so. No need to rely on me or anyone else for that matter. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 10:28, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think were on the same page here. The text in this article is only there because your sources attempt to justify them. Talking about religious persecution and jailing journalists without also talking about the 'good things' like building Eritrea from the rubbles of war seems somewhat slanderous in describing the president. If your sources are weak and undiversified I dont believe such claims should be made without good justification. Why should I find sources to justify slanderous claims. With all due respect, I ask that You find sources for Your claims. Until then I will temporarily take down what you wrote until you find your necessary sources. &mdash;the preceding comment is by 24.16.108.64 - 04:01, 8 April 2006: Please sign your posts!
 * I added the references because someone kept removing the text - little of which, if any, did I write myself. I suppose you could argue I was pushing a POV by keeping the critical text in the article, especially without countering with something positive. I will tell you right now that currently I have absolutely no motivation to dig up anything positive about Isaias Afewerki, Meles Zenawi, George W. Bush or any other politician. So you believe the article exhibits a particular POV? I'll do you a favor and tag it as such. As for countering the existing information with something positive (e.g. building Eritrea from the rubbles of war), I'm afraid I must leave that to you or to someone else. However I don't see how the article is slanderous and I think you would put youself in an awkward position by removing information that is verifiable and cites its sources. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 15:47, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll also refer you to my earlier comments on this talk page, as well as to the article's edit history. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:52, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I am considering removing a great deal of the information on this page because it is not about the President. In fact a great deal of the information here is actually about the People's Front for Democracy and Justice. It should be removed because although he is the current leader of the Party, he is not THE Party. Furthermore I agree that there is a POV a problem in this article because it is all from non-Eritrean sources; non-Eritrean sources are fine if Eritrean sources are also used to corroborate without bias, that is not done in this article. Finally the information that is available is all in Tigrinya and/or PDF's and not easily citable.Merhawie 13:58, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Merhawie, please sign your above comment. Although the information is not directly about him, the information is certainly relevant to him, seeing as he is the President and founder of the party. You cannot deny that he controls much of what goes on in Eritrea, and for this reason the scandals are particularly relevant. If you can find Tigrinya sources with reliable translations, then by all means use them.


 * Yom 18:39, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually the President is not the Founder of the party but rather...a founding member. Confusing but a clarification, he has not always been the leader of the party, and the elder statesmnan of the Party is not the President.
 * What you are suggesting Yom is to blame G W Bush for the problems of the Republican party such us Mr. Delay's trouble or the problem with lobbyists. Just because President Issayas is President of the country does not mean he is responsbile for every act done by the Government. Recall that the function of a President is to delegate responsibilities, that is why I have suggested the creation of the pages for the rest of the Ministers and Cabinet officials. Merhawie 13:58, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Gyrofrog, I suggest you read the following article and understand why you shouldn't be quick to blame Isaias Afewerki for any religious persecution: http://www.shabait.com/staging/publish/article_004915.html


 * You should always hear both sides of the story before coming to any conclusions. The reference I just gave you presents a clear justification for why Isaias is not to blame for any sort of religious persecution. Merhawi also made a good point by explaining that religious persecution is matter to be discussed in a PFDJ ariticle, not this one. Thank you and will make the according changes. Also, please dont revert changes unless you give your justifications for doing so. &mdash;the preceding comment is by 67.183.13.183 - 00:52, 4 May 2006: Please sign your posts!


 * I am compelled to ask whether you have read any of my responses, particularly the last one. Perhaps I should be more forthright and tell you simply that this article is not very high on my list of priorities and hasn't been for some time (particularly as I'm able to spend less time at Wikipedia in general). The only reason I've put this much effort toward responding to your comments is because you continue call me out by name.  I haven't edited the article in about a month, and that was to add the POV tag (which I thought would have met with your approval) and restore the photograph. If you would check the article's edit history (which I had asked you before) you would see that the last revert I made was March 3, about one month before our last round of discussions. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 01:28, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Gyrofrog, allow me to input my comments on the issue and in particular on President Isaias. All or most of the talks, especially from foreign sources, of the president and the way he handles his responsibility have been highly biased, unfair and intended to defame him and alienate him from the people who have high respects for him. I for one do respect him highly because he has the vision of a progressive leader, he is persistent (not stabborn as many would like to make him appear) in achieving his goals--which is more Nation and people oriented instead of personal glory. He does not try to lick peoples boots to get what he thinks is good for Eritrea. I try to compare him with his shrewd Ethiopian counterpart but there is no comparison between the two at all. He believes in partnership and opposes point blank those who try to deceive him (the difficulty with NGOs). Meles gets what he wanted by pleasing his donors. Isaias pushes for production from meagre rain to feed the country opposing free food distribution, Meles leaves his doors open for more and more food aid disregarding the possibility that the areas of his country with good rain could produce enough to feed the horn of Africa. More could be said. If these qualities were displayed from a European or American leader the press would make that leader shine but from an African leader? He is labelled a trouble maker and so should be immersed in trouble before he influences other leaders. The poletical issues raised against him are brought up at an inapropriate hour when the country is at a "no-war-no-peace" situation and all forces are geared to make him ineffective. I consider them not valid. I would challenge anyone to give the president 5 years of peace (with the boarder issue with Ethiopia cleared) and we will see all the points raised against our president proved false. I think we should judge this person without bias and, instead, expose his positive value. He may be an asset for Africa and the world at large. Harbegna.

See: http://www.parade.com/articles/web_exclusives/2007/02-11-2007/dictators13.html. - MSTCrow 04:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

It is quite clear, that this article is biased and whitewashed. Democracy shouldn't be luxury in times of peace, nor should a leader, who imprisoned and killed his rivals, stay in power. Actually such a person is called a dictator and a megalomaniac but not a president, as this would imply he presents and serves the interest of the people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seflu (talk • contribs) 13:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

If Afewerki wasn't the founder of the party who was? I think we should mentioned, not in this article maybe, but in the EPLF article. Lususromulus

IT IS A SHAME!!
This article is a shame ! Who wrote it ? Afewerki himself ??? He portraited him as a hero, when you can check all news, all ONG, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Reporters without borders, Afewerki is one of the most brutal assassins of the planet ! Afewerki rebuilt Eritrea ??? Afewerki frustrated for the failure of peace with Ethiopia ???

It is a shame !!!!!!!!!! Shame on Wikipedia for this article !!

Eritrea provoked ALL NEIGHBOUR COUNTRIES and had conflicts with Ethiopia, Somaliland, Djibouti, Yemen (for Socotra island), Sudan, ...

Afewerki is the evil and you portrai him as a hero and a victim. Shame, shame, shame !!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.13.80.243 (talk) 21:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Please calm down. Angry rants don't help improve Wikipedia. If you believe this article needs improving, then please edit it to improve it, using properly referenced sources, or provide your fellow Wikipedians with sources to draw from. This talk page is to be used to improve the article. Aridd (talk) 12:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It clearly seems that people eritreans and ethiopians and others have problems with the president, for what for making all the right desicions in governing the country without any aid or support of other countries, because he believes that if this country had survived 30 years of war with no support of super powers, this he believed will also be overcomed...it just needs time. The rate at what the country is developing to put school, health care center and other priorities is great ( with no resources or any support in mind). like usual there will be people who are traitors within the country who will go lower than they can and have an agreement and make eritrea look bad. Look at Ethiopia for how many years has it been surviving on Aid from US and other countries...? Isias is not a dicatator, and there will be elections when the country is safe from ethiopians and when he knows the borders have been marked. This election is merely a reason to use this as an opportunity as a distraction for the eritreans, when they have this event the ethiopians will take over...or maybe a presidential candidate (from the opposition party) has some kind of agreement with the ethiopians that when he takes place they will both comprimise by giving the sea port of assab to ethiopians and other cities to them so that they can leave them in peace....ofcourse Isias is too smart for this and beacuse of this outside powers know they dont stand a chance with him , so they will do anything to make him fall!.... He is truely a leader and the eritreans will surely prevail Victory to the massess!! Sara Senai


 * and there is a 'brain-washed follower' - De La Soul. this page needs to be updated so that it includes more recent eventsMathesoneon (talk) 21:18, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

name not Ge'ez
I have removed the following:
 * (Ge'ez: ኢሳያስ ኣፈወርቂ)

on the understanding that this cannot be correct, as Ge'ez is only used in liturgy. Please add the language his name is really from, or explain how an archaic language is used for current names. We seem to have no article Eritrean names. BrainyBabe (talk) 08:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

As in the Ge'ez script. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simfan34 (talk • contribs) 20:24, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Answer: Ge'ez refers to the Ge'ez script that was first used to write the ancient Ge'ez language, and is still used in languages that descend from Ge'ez. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.20.72.172 (talk) 20:32, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Latin is to English as Geez is to Tigrinya. Geez is merely the alphabet used for script in both Amharic and Tigrinya.Ericandude (talk) 04:32, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Birth place and date
In regards to edits like. African Historian, please provide citations for your edits. Wikipedia's policy on the Biographies of living persons is very important. Mesfin (talk) 12:47, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Could someone please verify his date of birth? There are conflicting years of birth in this article itself - 31/05/2009

I heard that he was born in Wollo in what is now part of the Amhara region in Ethiopia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qweads (talk • contribs) 11:58, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


 * that is useless, being pretty much original research. get material which can be referenced and verified. Mathesoneon (talk) 21:20, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Criticism
Just as there is approval there is criticism of the president. The article has already mentioned, in a way that isn't very blunt anyway, how freedom of speech is very limited, so obviously if there are negative criticisms of the president, only the diaspora, or at least the emmigrated eritreans will have a voice (and other organizations that have noticed the violation of human rights such as those of free press). Many people, displaced eritreans included have legitimate critcisms of the President, such as he representing Eritrea but violating or not implementing basic human rights and promises, or the claims of how the those opposing the president have been driven out of the country or arrested, or how the country is basically either totalitarian or authoritarian. I even recently heard of some sort of either bias or just failing to bring relief or aid to the akule-guzai region of Eritrea, and some sort of problems that are affecting the kunama people (these were online so there are sources). I think in order to have a balanced or more realistic view, there should be a view of Isaias from the point of view of the Diaspora or maybe from the other parties and human rights organizations, and counter-arguments. Such as there is little to no free speech, and the opposing view saying the reason is because the situation is tense and sometimes you must sacrifice some rights for stability in times of war or whatever the argument is. I'm somewhat biased, but this is a volatile issue, so that needs to be expressed otherwise the information will be very skewed and biased and inappropriate. (72.222.149.73 (talk) 10:05, 5 April 2010 (UTC)) me

I added statements from Amnesty International and Reporters Without Borders to a new Criticism section. Also referenced. 10:25, 23 January 2015

Recent edit
I have overhauled sections, added detail and increased references. It seems that the state the article was in, it read as aplogist propoganda.

Amongst the sentences I removed were: "Isaias Afwerki won the hearts of the fighters and the hopes of the Eritrean people for his much-enamored heroism and the tenacious and unyielding leadership that he was famous for. In essence, he was viewed as an icon of the Eritrean revolution and his name was synonymous with the valiant victories of the Eritrean revolution."

This didn't strike me as particularly balanced. Without naming, I think it is fair to say that a persistane editor of this page is an ardent supporter of Isaias Afewerki, and that their input needs to reflect a more neutral stance. Fiedorczuk (talk) 18:46, 25 June 2010 (UTC)


 * If editors are able to write criticism upon an individual, than others should also be able to write positive remarks as well. If this is not done, then the article is deemed to be bias. Ericandude (talk) 08:41, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Lead
There needs to be a clearer goal here. I think that an early background paragraph, a paragraph on his early leadership, and then on his presidency might make the most sense. Are there any suggestions? I would like to go through this soon and see what seems most notable and worthy of being in the lead. Dreambeaver (talk) 01:02, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. And this article does need clean-up. A lot of which was done over the past two days. However, I believe a few relevant information about his personal life was also accidentally removed. This information still belongs in a section like it was before. Of course, removing it from the lead was correct but not from the article all together.


 * Perhaps, a look at the similar Meles Zenawi article is beneficial. There is a "Background" and "Education and Personal life" section there that gives a good beginning to the article after the lead. Meles' lead section also needs improvement. The rest of that article though gives a good background then moves on to notable parts of the PM's career.


 * The lead however should summarize the content already present in the rest of the article as per WP:LEAD. It should not discuss any info that is not also in the rest of the article. Perhaps four paragraphs: 1) intro and short summary of background, 2) life in EPLF and war of independence 3) Domestic policy 4)Foreign policy.&mdash; አቤል ዳዊት?(Janweh64) (talk) 03:49, 19 February 2013 (UTC)


 * That seems like a reasonable course of action. Maybe if the first two pages seem to do better as a whole then we can deal with that when it comes to it -- but that's a concern for down the road.
 * Which pieces of personal information were you referring to? I saw a few big changes and mining through it all can be a daunting task. Dreambeaver  (talk) 18:55, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The info about his wife and kids. &mdash; አቤል ዳዊት?(Janweh64) (talk) 05:21, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It looks like that content is still under the personal life section unless you were referring to something else. Dreambeaver  (talk) 18:30, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * No, that was it. I created that section and added it back. &mdash; አቤል ዳዊት?(Janweh64) (talk) 01:47, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Pre-independence background (paragraph 2)
Proposal for second paragraph:

"Afwerki was born in Asmara, Eritrea, and attended Haile Selassie University before dropping out join the Eritrean Liberation Front (ELF). During this period, he spent time in China studying politics and military training. Afwerki would later part ways with the ELF and co-found the Eritrean People’s Liberation Front, one of three groups that split off to participate in the civil war before the conflict stalled in 1974. Afwerki became the chairman of the EPLF military committee in 1975 and the vice secretary-general in 1977. When another Eritrean civil war began in 1979, Afwerki and the EPLF opposed the ELF alongside the Tigray People's Liberation Front, eventually toppling the Derg regime in 1991 and gaining official Eritrean independence by referendum two years later."

Feel free to edit the text if anyone sees any changes to make that wont need discussion. Dreambeaver (talk) 19:28, 22 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Looks good to me. All information already elaborated on in the rest of the article and therefore requires no citation in the lead. Really quite perfect. &mdash; አቤል ዳዊት?(Janweh64) (talk) 21:17, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Tenure as President
A new user recently worked on adding information on human rights abuses; although they damaged the lead so it had to be reverted, this should be included both there and in the body. I'll work on a draft and bringing in more sources, but it should be a subsection on this information and a fair representation in the appropriate paragraph in the lead. Dreambeaver (talk) 19:18, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Human rights

Copy edit
Added lots of bluelinks for context and removed some duplicate information. Leaving the POV tag, as I think it is still not completely neutral, but will wait for consensus. PaintedCarpet (talk) 15:56, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Many thanks PaintedCarpet, Regards Tom W (talk) 16:11, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Biographical information
Reverted the latest edit for being a cut/paste copyvio; however, the article contains some good information so moving the text here until someone can rephrase to fill out the bio information:

Isayas's father, Ato Afewerki is from Adi Tanqua-Milash/Tembien and they trace their roots to Agame Awraja of Tigray in Ethiopia.

Isayas's father used to work in Mekele, the capital of Tigray Province. Isayas's father used to work at the Ministry of Land Reform until his retirement. Until he died, those who knew him in Tigray used to identify him as "the man who wears a black suit, a black "cravat"/neck tie and a black hat." Isayas's Mother Woz. Adanesh Berhe is from Adwa in Tigray. This is also the birthplace of the father of Prime Minister Meles Zenawi of Ethiopia. Isaias is married to Saba Haile and has two sons and one daughter.

PaintedCarpet (talk) 22:40, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
 * dictator — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.110.168.47 (talk) 09:01, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Should we mention in our article the alternative spelling of his name, Afewerki ? --BushelCandle (talk) 23:15, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * , The article should use what is most commonly used, but I have seen the alternative spelling as well. It could be stated at the very top of the article. Do you have a source?–CaroleHenson (talk) 13:52, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Edits
There have been some edits that have changed the original meaning of cited sources... and in some cases added information that isn't close to being in the cited sources. There is also a tag on the article questioning neutrality.

So, I'm doing a line-by-line review of the information in the article to cited sources.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:52, 11 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I finished the line-by-line review. There are still places where sources are needed - which means that if you find a source and the information is different, edits must be made so that the content paraphrases what is said by the source.


 * I removed the neutrality tag, because I don't see an issue now. If, though, there are further attempts to add back information that is someone's personal belief, rather than content from cited sources... or, remove cited material from reliable sources, then it should be returned.–CaroleHenson (talk) 15:52, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. Community Tech bot (talk) 00:21, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * President Isaias Afewerk.jpg