Talk:Isan

Older comments
This article follows the plan of WikiProject_Countries; it doesn't have to, but I found it useful. Future developments may want to refer to that project for guidance. Markalexander100 06:37, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I clicked through to the Talk page to say that this article is brilliant! --AStanhope 14:52, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thai Propaganda?
This article appears to be completely negating the Cambodian history of Isan. The name "Isana" is the name of a Khmer kingdom that existed there (before Angkor Wat was built)... the many Khmer archaelogical ruins all across the region up to Roi Et are testimony enough (Phimai? Phanom Rung? etc...?!?!); not to mention the huge Khmer and Katuic speaking populations that have been there for centuries.

"the name is derived from that of Isana, a manifestation of Shiva as deity of the north-east. The name therefore reinforces the area's identity as the north-east of Thailand, rather than as a part of the Lao world" This statement is utter fantasy... Thai propaganda. Where's the reference for this?!

The name of the ancient kingdom of Chenla of Land is connected to the city of Isanapura (Sambor Prey Kuk, near [|Kompong Thom]) and king Isanavarman I (AD 616- 635), it's Khmer king. Therein lies the connection to "Shiva"... (a statue King Isanavarman erected to Shiva) the idea that it's connected to "northeast", when the name was coined before Thailand existed is utter fiction. "īśāna" means "wielder of invisible power" (apt for a king, wouldn't you say?!) The city is named after the king; the region after the city... not rocket science is it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishana http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruler_of_Cambodia#Chenla_Empire:_550-802 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenla http://www.cambodia-travel.com/khmer/chenla.htm

I call "NPOV" on this history section of this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.3.159 (talk) 20:32, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Pakama
Why do Thai people call men's traditional wrap-around clothing pakama? This is the same as the Old Japanese form of the word for the same sort of men's wrap-around clothing; in modern Japanese, the word is pronounced as hakama (はかま、袴). Very weird! Ebizur (talk) 23:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Nobody seems to know. (ผ้าขาวม้า) is made up of three syllables that individually mean cloth, white and horse. A correct orthographic rendition would be PHA-KHAO-MA, but the middle syllable is always elided to KHA- (ขะ). Nobody associates it with 'white' or 'horse', and transcribing it as pakama or pakamah comes closer to how it sounds. Perhaps it is related to Old Japanese, though /pha/ meaning 'cloth' makes sense in a Thai context, if not the other two syllables. Maybe it approximates the Japanese sound. But that begs the question of why the middle syllable is spelled one way and pronounced another. It's pure speculation. Another thing, it is NOT the men's traditional wrap-around clothing, but a loincloth used for bathing without a bathroom; or a turban, or a dozen or so other handy uses. They are so handy that many Isan men have one knotted about their waist wherever they go. On the other hand, the traditional wrap-around that you only see as a costume these days is PHANUNG (ผ้านุ่ง). "(ผ้านุ่ง) the panung, an article of dress for both Thai men and women of ...a century ago, taking the form of a piece of cloth wrapped once around the body and tied in a knot called ชายพก [chai-pok, fringe tied] in the vicinity of the navel. If the ends of the cloth are left dangling, this mode of dress is called นุ่งผ้าลอยชาย [panung-loy-chai, 'loy' meaning float]. As a rule the ends of the cloth are brought bottom edge, and the resulting roll brought out between the legs to the small of the back, where it is stuck behind the belt. So Sethaputra, New Model English Thai dictionary." Pawyilee (talk) 17:43, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * While the syllable -KHAO- is often elided to -KHA-, it is also common to pronounce the syllable as a short -KHAO-.

computer literacy
Does anyone have a source for the bit about most children being "well adept" in the use of word-processing etc? I'd be surprised if schools in the wilds of Chaiyaphum are particularly well-equipped with computers, and I'd be even more surprised if IT is so well-taught that most of the children are that successful. HenryFlower 09:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't know about "well adept", but I DO know you can log onto the Internet in the wilds of Chaiyaphum as long as you're in range of a TH GPRS cell phone tower. Cell phones in the 2,000 baht range can link a computer to the 'net at 375 Baht for 6,000 minutes. The post office has a 5,000 baht desktop phone/modem that functions like a cell phone, and gives a land-line quality connection that's better than cell phones; it can be equipped with a 2,000 baht antenna for better coverage in fringe areas. But, with GPRS antennas sprouting like mushrooms, there aren't many fringe areas left! Most, if not all, schools, even at the primary level, have computer labs, so children with the motivation can easily become adept. Check out the webboard for the school in my village And here's one from Chaiyaphum:
 * Here is a list of schools that have their own web sites, that is so long it takes forever to download! Pawyilee (talk) 16:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

"vehicle plow field"
I've only ever heard this phrase used in Isan descriptively, not as a name for motorized tillers. The one described here is called Rot-E-Taek รถอีแต๊ก Copy-and-paste the Thai into Google Images for pix of same. Doing the same for ควายเหล็ก as given here returns more pix of buffalo than of E-Taek, and includes a various other tractors. Rot- รถ is a classifier for any wheeled vehicle except ox carts (which are classified as "volumes", being also a volume of 2,000 litres). "E-" อี is a prefix of contempt; Taek แต๊ก is onomatopoetic for the characteristic sound of the 5-kw Diesel engine. Trucks belt-driven by a similar, 8-kw engine are called Rot-E-Taen รถอีแตนท์ onomatopoetic for the deeper sound of the larger engine. Also, while Kubota dominates the market, other brands are also on offer. It may also be worth noting that it takes 4-5 years to train a buffalo to plow, and then in harness with an older buffalo that already knows how. This is why "kwai" is a synonym for "stupid", and also means it will be extremely difficult to shift back to using buffalo as the cost of Diesel fuel rises. I'll upload some pix as I get a round tuit. Image:E-Tak and Buffalo.JPG for starters. Pawyilee (talk) 10:03, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Cambodia
Sorry on behalf of whoever spammed this page with a WP:CAMBODIA tag. I've removed it, don't want to start another border incident! --Paxse (talk) 14:14, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Racism & skin-color discrimination
An anonymous editor deleted most, if not all, references to Racism and Thaification in Isan. The matter deleted is problematic, not because it isn't true, but because it was poorly worded and largely unsourced. Also deleted was the fact that Thaification has been largely sucessfull in Isan, but, being unsourced, also does not state why; namely, that Thaification has been modified since about the end of the Vietnam War to validate and restore much of the Lao culture in its Isan incarnation. So, instead of wholesale, anonymous deletions, how about discussing here how much of it can be brought up to standards, and saved. Pawyilee (talk) 09:40, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Merge proposal, Isan Celebrities
I have tagged Isan Celebrities, suggesting that it is merged into this article. I do not think that the list warrants an article of its own.  Chzz  ►  11:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree pretty much. My intention in creating the article is that as Isan people become more educated they will seek to be more aware of people of note from their region. My contact with Isan and its people (as well as Thais generally) over a 17 year period indicates that there is a growing awareness and popularity of Isan celebrities. WildDog1960 (talk) 23:16, 8 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Strong support for merge. I believe the cities wikiprojects recommend that locality articles include lists of notable residents. Gonzonoir (talk) 09:23, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree. Unless a list is exceptionally long enough to  justify  its own  page, such  as for example, alumni  lists for famous schools or universities,  this short  list  of Isan Celebs could easily  be part  of the article. Care should be taken however to  maintain the quality  of the Isan page as it  has been an FA.--Kudpung (talk) 04:31, 26 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Support As per nom and other supporters of the move. It's over a year now, let's do  it.--Kudpung (talk) 04:35, 28 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Can some of their pics be ported to this article? There are no human faces to see here. Kortoso (talk) 23:29, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Link Correction
The link in the external links section: "Basic Isaan phrases (Some basic Isaan phrases with sound files)" is dead and has moved to a new address at http://siamsmile.webs.com/isaan/isaan.html. I tried editing in the new address, but it was removed. This needs correcting. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blutey (talk • contribs) 10:21, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. --Pawyilee (talk) 06:40, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Reverted by Kudpung. --Pawyilee (talk) 06:56, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Er... I haven't  touched this article since 20 September,  and that  was just  a small  format  change (line spacing). I  wouldn't  dream  of reverting  an edit  of Pawilee's without  discussing  it  with  him first.--Kudpung (talk) 08:22, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The link was removed by  a bot. The link is harmless but the site may  be hosted with  a web hosting  company  whose IP  has been banned by  Wikipedia. In  the case of Thailand this is not  difficult to  understand. However, the only  workaround is to  contact  the bot's owner - also  difficult as bot  owners tend to  hide behind layers of identities and ignore complaints about  their bots.--Kudpung (talk) 09:18, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! The linked article by "Boo Boo" adds more than just the phrases, and, if safe to visit, adds to our article. Sorry I tho't the bot was from you. As to bots, I guess they are, like me, obsessive-compulsive, so pity them. --Pawyilee (talk) 10:27, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Economy
Conflicts with main article Economy of Isan as to use of tractors vs. water buffalo. The subheading states without source: The main piece of agricultural equipment in use today is the 'rot tai na' (Thai: รถไถนา, lit. "vehicle plow field") colloquially referred to as 'kwai lek' (Thai: ควายเหล็ก, or "iron/steel buffalo"), but erroneously implies this refers only to the 'etak' (Thai: อีแตก) pictured. 'Rot tai na' refers to 'any' tractor, whether tracked, 2 or 4-wheel. The 2-wheel 'etak', named from the prefix อี signifying contempt + the perceived sound of its engine, is almost as difficult to handle as a water buffalo, and is rapidly being replaced by the 4-wheel variety. Isan also is prospering at present at it has been blessed with ample rain the past few years, feeding to quite extensive hydraulic engineering, but I, too, lack sources, so can't make needed changes. --Pawyilee (talk) 13:00, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Prostitution, gogo girls, beer girls and old foreign men
Shouldn't we mention that an overly large amount of the beer girls, gogo girls and other prostitutes or girls being married to foreign men for money is from this region? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.24.198.156 (talk) 07:04, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, if you have reliable sources. I know it's true because I am one of those "older men"Petebutt (talk) 09:58, 5 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Sawatdi krap. Do we really have to redebate this old chestnut again for the umpteenth time? It should be quite clear that any mention of this at all is WP:UNDUE. --Kudpung (talk) 12:01, 5 December 2010 (UTC)


 * If a large proportion of prostitutes in Thailand are from Isan, then I think it might be reasonable to mention that in Prostitution in Thailand, provided we have reliable sources and provided we could offer a balanced regional breakdown - but even there I think picking out one region would be WP:UNDUE, especially as it is not regionality but poverty that is the main driving force. But in terms of the Isan article, the proportion of people in Isan who are involved in prostitution is very low, and so I think it would definitely be WP:UNDUE here. As an analogy, if a large proportion of sex tourists to Thailand are from, say, the UK, then it would be reasonable to present that as part of a proper breakdown in an article about sex tourism. But as the proportion of UK citizens who take part in sex tourism is very low, it would be WP:UNDUE to include it in United Kingdom. (Disclaimer: I'm a middle-aged Brit with a middle-aged Isan wife) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:31, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Wars of 1970s
I'm surprised in the History section not to see any mention of the Vietnam War and the Laotian Civil War. I would think that this area would have become a haven for refugees escaping the conflict. Did these wars have any impact on the area? Liz Read! Talk! 22:49, 2 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Can't answer that  unfortunately even though I've been living permanently here in the heart  of Isan for very  many  years and  anything  I  would know would be WP:OR. It  would need some very  detailed research, possibly  by  reviewing  back  issues of the two  major English  language newspapers here (Bangkok Post and The Nation) but  this all  happeend in  pre-Internet  years,  and acquiring  and reading  any  books on  the subject -  again  in  English (or in  my  case, also  French or German). Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:48, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Very detailed research:"Despite the noble intentions of the UN Charter, statelessness is nevertheless a pervasive and ongoing problem, in Thailand and around the world. The stateless people addressed in this ethnographic research live in Northeast Thailand (hereafter: Isan), along the Lao border in Ubon Ratchathani province. Statelessness in this area is pervasive but less known than the high profile cases in northern and southern Thailand. There are stateless people living in other Isan provinces and along other borders (e.g. Cambodia), but the data for the current research is restricted to people living in Ubon Ratchatani, and any generalized conclusions drawn from the research should be cognizant of that empirical limitation. —Ethnographic Notes on Statelessness in Isan Dr. Peter Vail, Faculty of Political Science Ubon Ratchathani University"—Pawyilee (talk) 04:22, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Foreign husbands
—Pawyilee (talk) 10:50, 9 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Why does a professor of nursing do this study, instead of a sociologist? Also, The Nation is not exactly an academic journal. Unless this receives some reaction from the academic community, I would discount this report as an instance of the fear of changes and "foreign influence will bring down our traditions" sentiment prevalent among some conservative and/or nationalist Thais. Suggesting that binational families are as a rule less community-oriented is a strong claim that needs more serious backup than just a survey among 231 women. --RJFF (talk) 16:33, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Not stateless people or foreign husbands in Isan

 * Duncan McCargo and Krisadawan Hongladarom. Asian Ethnicity, Volume 5, Number 2, June 2004"One informant explained that people from various Isan provinces might refer to themselves by using ‘thai’ in a compound word with the name of their province, such as ‘Thai-Sarakham’ or ‘Thai-Roi-Et’.39 At first hearing, this sounds like an innocuous conjunction of nationality and province. In fact, it is another contested term. The original meaning of ‘thai’ here is similar to chao or khon (people) written without /y/ (yo yak), henceforth ‘Tai’. Thus ‘Tai-Sarakham’ means ‘people from Mahasarakham’. Similarly, ‘Tai-Krungthep’, used by Isan people, refers to Bangkokians.40 However, the younger generation of Isan people is hardly aware of the original meaning of ‘Thai’ or ‘Tai’ in this context. For them, ‘Tai’ is spelled with /y/ (yo yak), and means something related to the Thai people and Thai state. Thus ‘Thai-Isan’ means Thai nationals who are living in Isan. Arguably, the Thai state had colonised the word ‘tai’, changing it from a generic term for people of Tai ethnicity, to a political term connoting citizenship and nationality.... — Contesting Isan-ness"

—Pawyilee (talk) 10:07, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
 * A Note on Buddhistic Millenarian Revolts in Northeastern Siam."The Royal Autograph Edition of the Phrarātcha-phongsāwadān or Royal Chronicles gives one of the oldest known accounts of a rebellion led by a magic-man, generically called phú mi bun or a “man of merit.” In 1699, a Lao named Bun Kwāng who styled himself a phū mī bun terrorized the governor of Korat with his reputed magical powers, according to the chronicle, and managed to establish himself as the ruler of a city which had been made a Siamese outpost by King Phra Narai (1656–88). Despite the superior military strength at his command, the intimidated governor was unable to order the immediate arrest of the phū mī bun and furthermore, humiliated himself by acceding to the insolent demand of the latter for armed men, elephants and horses. —Journal of Southeast Asian Studies / Volume 6 / Special Issue 02 / September 1975, pp 121-126. Copyright © The National University of Singapore 1975. DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1017/S0022463400017264 (About DOI), Published online: 07 April 2011"
 * A Note on Buddhistic Millenarian Revolts in Northeastern Siam."The Royal Autograph Edition of the Phrarātcha-phongsāwadān or Royal Chronicles gives one of the oldest known accounts of a rebellion led by a magic-man, generically called phú mi bun or a “man of merit.” In 1699, a Lao named Bun Kwāng who styled himself a phū mī bun terrorized the governor of Korat with his reputed magical powers, according to the chronicle, and managed to establish himself as the ruler of a city which had been made a Siamese outpost by King Phra Narai (1656–88). Despite the superior military strength at his command, the intimidated governor was unable to order the immediate arrest of the phū mī bun and furthermore, humiliated himself by acceding to the insolent demand of the latter for armed men, elephants and horses. —Journal of Southeast Asian Studies / Volume 6 / Special Issue 02 / September 1975, pp 121-126. Copyright © The National University of Singapore 1975. DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1017/S0022463400017264 (About DOI), Published online: 07 April 2011"
 * A Note on Buddhistic Millenarian Revolts in Northeastern Siam."The Royal Autograph Edition of the Phrarātcha-phongsāwadān or Royal Chronicles gives one of the oldest known accounts of a rebellion led by a magic-man, generically called phú mi bun or a “man of merit.” In 1699, a Lao named Bun Kwāng who styled himself a phū mī bun terrorized the governor of Korat with his reputed magical powers, according to the chronicle, and managed to establish himself as the ruler of a city which had been made a Siamese outpost by King Phra Narai (1656–88). Despite the superior military strength at his command, the intimidated governor was unable to order the immediate arrest of the phū mī bun and furthermore, humiliated himself by acceding to the insolent demand of the latter for armed men, elephants and horses. —Journal of Southeast Asian Studies / Volume 6 / Special Issue 02 / September 1975, pp 121-126. Copyright © The National University of Singapore 1975. DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1017/S0022463400017264 (About DOI), Published online: 07 April 2011"

Pre-historical Isan
—Pawyilee (talk) 11:31, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Geography
"The Mekong forms most of the border between Thailand and Laos to the north and east of Isan, while the south of the region borders on Cambodia."

Apparently the Phnom Dangrek range defines the southern border with Cambodia.
 * May I suggest: "The Mekong forms most of the border between Thailand and Laos to the north and east of Isan, while the Phnom Dangrek range defines the southern border with Cambodia."

Kortoso (talk) 23:13, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
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