Talk:Isie Smuts

Photos

 * Photos before page 4 or after page 8, p 148 and 152 of this 1917 book could be used, but I have no idea how to flip the last two or straighten them. SusunW (talk) 22:04, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This photo on WP.af says that it was published in Toesprake Deur Die Hoog- Edelagbare J. C. Smuts. That book was published in South Africa 1941 per Amazon and Worldcat. I have no access to this book, but if the publishing date can be confirmed, copyright in South Africa expired 50 years later, thus in 1991 and prior to the URAA date of 1996. SusunW (talk) 16:13, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The photo immediately preceding page 179 appears to be in the public domain in the US. Published in 1943 in the US, it was marked copyrighted by Akkersdyk Studio of Cape Town. South African copyright on photographs expires 50 years after publication, thus it expired in 1993. Checking the US copyright catalogs, there are no filings for Akkersdyk in the Artworks catalog for 1943. The book which it appeared in was copyrighted as A176283 on 15 October 1943.p. 192 The book copyright was not renewed in 1971, checking both volumes for Crafford and 176283. Not sure of the tagging, whether it would be PD-South-Africa and PD-US-not renewed or PD-South-Africa and PD-1996. SusunW (talk) 17:24, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yay me, I figured out how to flip a photo and have uploaded two. Still working on others. SusunW (talk) 18:16, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Trying to obtain the 1941 book via inter-library loan. Still need someone ? to advise about the licensing on the 1943 book. SusunW (talk) 15:47, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Emailed User:Morne, uploader of the second bullet photo to confirm it's from the book. He is mostly an AF editor, but has edited here on EN. Uploaded the photo from the third bullet. Any source that lists the names of the people in the picture? I mean, I guess they could be non-notable, but Smuts was a very important political figure, it seems not unreasonable that at least some of the family went on to at least some notability. --GRuban (talk) 21:13, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

GRuban (talk) 21:13, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You are the best! Thanks . In order of age, the kids were Susanna Johanner "Santa" (1903), Catharina Petronella "Cato" (1904), Jacob Daniel "Japie" (1906–1948), Sybella Margaretha "Sylma" (1908), Jan Christian "Jannie" (1912), and Louis Anne de la Rey (1914). Given that, it seems likely that l-r they are Sylma, Isie, Cato, Japie, Louis, Santa, Jan, and Jannie. Does that look right? Not really sure about whether I have the two oldest girls right. SusunW (talk) 21:29, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Googling: Santa became the wife of Smuts's farm manager, Andries Weyers; Cato married Bancroft Clark; Sylma married Jack Coaton. Louis became a medical doctor/missionary and married Dennis McIldowie. I don't find enough sources on any of them to confirm notability, but it is also typical for me not to find hits on sourcing in Africa. SusunW (talk) 22:17, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Smutsgesin.jpg
 * I created https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Isie_Smuts. Also found there this absolutely wonderful photograph. Only problem is the caption and date. Clearly that child is no more than a year or two old, however, given what Susun just wrote above, negative eight years old is a bit of a stretch. Ian, as the uploader, can you confirm this is really an 1895 photograph? Susun, can you confirm Santa was born in 1903? At least one of those things is not true. (Our article also says they were only married in 1897 - which isn't nearly as much of a stretch as people do sometimes pose for photos and have children out of wedlock - but is a reason to be extra extra sure about the date here.) --GRuban (talk) 01:34, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, GRuban, I cannot confirm the date. I copied it over to Commons as a result of the recommendation I found on the AF wiki. What I found there is the only information I have. Please just put it down to my limited comprehension of copyright law in the United States. But perhaps as for the AF wiki, it would be possible to upload the image on the EN wiki rather than on Commons. Or would that face the same copyright problems?--Ipigott (talk) 06:38, 14 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Aha. Ok, then I'll just change the date from "Omstreeks 1895" to "Omstreeks 1904". Omstreeks just means "roughly" anyway. Just from looking at Jan and Isie Smuts, they're clearly much younger than in their 1921 photograph. Jan Smuts looks a lot like in his 1913 photograph. --GRuban (talk) GRuban (talk) 13:36, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Santa was definitely born in 1903, and as far as I can tell the first publishing of the photo of Smuts and Jan with Santa seems to have occurred in 1962], so I didn't use it. This 1986 book shows the photo dates to 1904. Can you also capture the other one from the Toesprake Deur Die Hoog- Edelagbare J. C. Smuts where she's looking at a map?  Finally got the proof from interlibrary loan of the book that the photo of her in the flowers was indeed published in 1941. SusunW (talk) 13:56, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Mev en Generaal Smuts ondersoek kaart van Afrika.jpg --GRuban (talk) 13:53, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you and I apologize for taking so long to reply, but I was hip deep in a complicated Cuban woman's article, (comments/editing welcome). One final question for you and, I love, love, love the flower photo, but I also think it is likely the best image we have of her at the height of her "public" period. Do we think it should be cropped for the lede to show just her portrait? If we decide to crop it, should we also include the full image? SusunW (talk) 14:10, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think it should be cropped. A face looking down would not be good. It's fine as it is.--Ipigott (talk) 16:09, 19 December 2023 (UTC)