Talk:Islamic calendar/Archive 1

Observances during the Islamic year
An outsider sees that the section was written by a Sunni partisan, from the way the Asherah is set apart as the observance of a "sect." The days of the month need to be given whatever convention of transliteration has been agreed on at Wikipedia, and linked to their entries. Not for an infidel, eh! Wetman 09:27, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Seasons and farming
Question: IF the Islamic calander can not be used to determine season then how do farmers sow the seeds in different Islamic countries.

Today I can understand that they can use the Gregorian calendar because both are available, but how was the situation a centuries back?


 * They used the Julian calendar, or in Egypt the Coptic calendar. Whatever their religion, a farmer needs a solar calendar to work with as well. - Mustafaa 19:55, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Extent of Use
The article can also include info like: Do governments of Muslim countries use it? School? Daily life? Newspaper? etc. --Menchi 22:43, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Question
What's the Gregorian equivalent of "4 Shawal 1422 H"? I worked it out to be the 4th of October, 2001 AD. Is that correct? I was expecting a different answer. Khoda Hafez -- Tompsci 00:53, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Using my own personal calculations... 4 Shawwal 1426 was November 6, 2005. Four Gregorian years earlier would put it at November 6, 2001. Fourty-two days later (four times 10.5) to help with the Islamic-Gregorian offset would mean December 18, 2001. Of course, that's my personal estimate.


 * To go along with that, the December 2001 new moon occured late on December 14 GMT, putting 1 Shawwal on December 15 and 4 Shawwal on December 18, in agreement with my estimate. Locations in the Americas and locations where the moon was not visible would have put 1 Shawwal on December 16, meaning 4 Shawwal would be on December 19. Therefore, I'd put 4 Shawaal on December 18, 2001 or December 19, 2001, depending on location. joturner 01:07, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * According to the external weblinks given at the end of the main page, it was Wednesday, December 19, 2001, in the Umm al-Qura calendar. If one of the tabular Islamic calendars was used it was either the same date or the next day, Thursday, December 20, 2001.

Imamat Day
What and when is Imamat Day ? 16th or 25th of Muharram ? It's on Template: Muslimholidays, but I can't find much info in Wikipedia. -- PFHLai 17:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Date Formats
Question: How do you write an Islamic Date? For example, some of the traditional Gregorian calendar notations would be MM-DD-CCYY or DD-MM-CCYY.

I believe I undersand the DAY MONTHNAME AH format (long form. e.g "1 Muharram 1427"). What is a shorthand format? Is it Right to Left or Left to Right? I'm currently under the assumption that the format would be (for example) 9 XII 1427 (for the start of Hajj). Is that correct?

Any input would be appreciated.

--Mkamensek 20:45, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The Week: Saturday to Friday or Sunday to Saturday?
Which weekday is considered to begin a new week in the Islamic calendar? This text gives Saturday (so that the Friday of gathering is then the last day), others give Sunday (as in Judaism and Christianity) -- 145.254.131.197 18:12, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * as the weekday names suggest it, the week start on Sunday (al-ahad means "the first") : Monday is "ithnayn" (the second), Tuesday is "thulatha'" (the third), Wednesday is "arbi`a'" (the fourth) and Thursday is "khamis" (the fifth)

HC 10:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting note
After playing with an Islamic/Gregorian calendar converter, I thought people might be interested in the fact that "1 January 20875 AD" is "9 Muharram 20875 AH." --Saforrest 17:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

can you give us the URL for this calendar converter?

thanks Aamir Ali

So, January 5th would be Muharam 5th, day/month/year 5/1/20875 AD = 5/1/20875 AH I find that a little hard to belive, because the Islamic calender is around 11 days shorter then the Gregorian. In fact, you becaome 32 years old in the Gregorian calender around the same day you bacome 33 years old in the Islamic calendar! -- KMF

No! 1/1/20875 AD = 9/1/20875 AH does NOT imply 5/1/20875 AD = 5/1/20875 AH. However some Islamic years would start with the same day as a Gregorian year just by chance. They would occur on average once every three or four centuries. Karl 11:45, 31 Oct 2006 UT


 * I don't know why KMF thinks the Islamic calendar counts backwards Nil Einne 10:53, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Although KMF's dates are wrong are Karl noted, KMF's other statements are correct. But he doesn't mention counting backwards, just counting faster. — Joe Kress 01:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Holy Months
"The three successive holy months are Dhu al-Qada, Dhu al-Hijja, and Muharram, thus excluding an intercalary month before Muharram. The single holy month is Rajab."

"Of all the months in the Islamic calendar, Ramadan is the most sacred."

I'm confused. Is Ramadan not one of the holy months then?

I know nothing about this topic, so forgive my ignorance. However, I found this confusing. I'm sure there is a simple explanation, which is obvious to someone familiar with the topic, but it doesn't make sense to me that the most sacred month isn't one of the four holy months. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.45.72.49 (talk)


 * Very good question! The four holy months mentioned by Muhammad were holy before he established Islam, while the Kaaba still had idols before it. During those four months, Muslims could not fight Pagans. Ramadan is now the most sacred because of the fast held during its daylight hours, and because the first verses of the Qur'an were revealed to Muhammad near the end of that month (the Night of Power or Laylat al-Qadr). — Joe Kress 19:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I think smoking during Ramadan daylight is also not done, at least around the Gulf. I'm not sure it's worth mentioning. Nice article. 154.5.18.29 06:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Move external links
I suggest to move the recently added external links


 * Calculation or Eye-Sighting
 * Determining the beginning of Ramadan

to the Ramadan page where they properly belong.

I am not so happy with one of these links which finds it necessary to predict hellfire to those who do not follow its injunctions - perhaps this one should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vgent (talk • contribs)


 * Be bold and do it yourself. — Joe Kress 23:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * O.k. - have done so — Vgent 8:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

arithmetic
"There exists a variation of the Islamic calendar known as the Tabular Islamic calendar in which months are worked out by arithmetic rules rather than by observation or astronomical calculation. It has a 30-year cycle with 11 leap years of 355 days and 19 years of 354 days. In the long term, it is accurate to one day in about 2500 years. It also deviates up to about 1 or 2 days in the short term."


 * When you say that it deviates 1 day in 2500 yrs, do I have it right that this is respect to the ordinary Muslim calendar, not to the common one, of 365¼ days?DGG 03:01, 5 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course. There is also a short term deviation from the ordinary Islamic Calendar. Karl 10:50, 1 November 2006.

Iranian calendar
I've corrected the Persian in the lead paragraph, & added a link in the "See also" section. You might also want to mention somewhere in the text that Iran currently uses a solar calendar dating from the Hegira. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 10:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Does The Early Belief in Moon or Sun Gods Influence A Region's Method of Time Keeping?
Does the early Arabian and Persian belief in moon or sun god/s determine, whether a lunar or solar calendar was eventually was used?

I think that people originally used the moon as a measure of time because it is easier to tell time by, especially in areas of the world without seasons, or if you are traveling and you don't have a calendar on hand. For example, if I look up at the moon one night and see a full moon then I know it is half way through the lunar month. Another example is I can say, "Oh, that happened two moons ago," or something like that and I mean two months ago. You can't really tell time by the sun on the fly like that because the sun never changes. The only evidence that the year is changing, using the sun as a guide, is to notice that the days are getting longer or shorter. It's a lot easier to use; anyone can tell time. You don't have to depend on priests and kings telling you what time of the year it is, like the Egyptians, Mayans, Romans, etc. all did.

Yghannam (talk) 12:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

A remark or two
---AMSA83 22:21, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The bulk I eventually put under "The Umm al-Qura calendar" has really exhausted my patience. It should be edited for more readability.
 * What is with the (long form) names of months? Based on my Islamic education I can think of no basis for it whatsoever.

Malaysia
Some clarification is needed for Malaysia. I'm not an expert so I won't be changing the article but moon sighting is still used, at least for certain months like Ramadhan. For example see Eid ul-Fitr. I don't believe it's used for all months though since I believe Awal Muharram and the Prophet Muhammad's birthday don't seem to depend intrinsicly on sightings Nil Einne 10:47, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Agricultural events
How could the timing of vital agricultural events (plantings, harvests etc.) be maintained under a purely lunar calendar? Was there traditionally widespread use of alternative calendars or other season-determining methods for agricultural purposes?--Pharos 10:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Apparently, the knowledge about agricultural work timing was not required nor necessary. Instead, you had the vital information about when to loot your neighbours (months forbidden for fighting and the others when the fight was allowed). Versus3 (talk) 12:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Hilal Sighting
Just so you know, Sunni muslims still follow the Sunnah of the Prophet(saw) that says to spot the hilal, not to use calculations. I am here in Texas and spotted the Hilal for both the beginning and inshAllah will do the same for the end.--168.215.245.170 20:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Map
Is there a map of the countries that use this Calendar system? Sseballos ( Talk to Me  ) 22:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Introduction
This sentence probably doesn't deserve to be in the introduction in favor of having only a summary of the calendar and moving on to explain the Hijra.


 * Because this lunar year is about 11 days shorter than the solar year, Islamic holy days, although celebrated on fixed dates in their own calendar, usually shift 11 days earlier each successive solar year, such as a year of the Gregorian calendar.

--Ashawley 14:56, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Response to the observations made by ITAQALLAH
Your insistence on stopping my WHOLE contribution from appearing in the article, rather than EDITING IT to make it fit better with the format and style of an encyclopedia is puzzling to me. I would expect, from a participant in Wikipedia activities, that he will help improve the text, not suppress it.

You suppressed the section on “astronomical considerations” which I had added to the text of the article, on the grounds that it belongs to “original research”.

But, this section contains only two paragraphs which present FACTS, not original research. The first para presents ASTRONOMICAL FACTS.

The second para also presents FACTS. It explains how Muslim countries proceed to determine the beginning of months. It explains the difficulty in observing the crescent. This, in turn, explains why it is seen on different days in different areas of the world. This is why the first of Ramadan may be celebrated on three, four or even five different days in the Muslim world. The same applies to all other months.

So, Itaqallah, do you really think these facts belong in the category of "original research" unfit to appear in an encyclopedia? Or do you think these facts do not need to be explained to the readers of Wikipedia?

I want to insist on the following points :

At no point have you singled out a single information in the text I contributed to say that IT IS WRONG.

At no time did you say that this information was IRRELEVANT to the subject of the article.

All you found to justify the suppression is that it is “original research”, but without bothering to justify your statement.

I will not go on to discuss similarly all the other sections you suppressed. I expect you to read them again and explain precisely, to all the readers, why they don’t belong in Wikipedia.

One final observation: You referred to the 3-revert rule. Does it also apply to you?

Aster77 (talk) 07:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes it does, though I am nowhere near violating it. Your personal essay - and that's what it reads as - is not really encyclopedic in tone. It is opinionated, it makes inferences and links not explicitly and positively verified by the sources (i.e. negative assertions), it employs sources of dubious quality, and in some areas employs no sourcing at all. These are systemic issues, I don't have to point out every sentence for you when so many of them suffer from the same problems. Your claim that it's just about whether the text is right or wrong is highly superficial, and ultimately a red herring. If it doesn't conform to the core content policies of this encyclopedia, which I have taken the liberty to link above for you, then it will almost certainly be removed or heavily cropped. You make things difficult for yourself and others when you insist on reinserting large chunks of text. I have in fact given an example of the kind of original research plaguing the text in my above comment, but if you don't see where or understand how/why it's original research then I'd recommend you revise the relevant policy. Likewise, if you can't see how my objections apply to the text you've pasted below, then you need to review policy.  ITAQALLAH   20:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I also found the following message from you in my user talk page:

"You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Islamic calendar. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution". ITAQALLAH 22:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

You accuse me of engaging in an edit war, when it is YOU who suppress my text every time I add it ?

Your behaviour is extremely puzzling to me. Who gave you the sovereign authority to censor texts the way you do, based on your own personal criteria Aster77 (talk) 07:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia core content policies, namely WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOR, are not my "own personal criteria."  ITAQALLAH   20:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposed additions to the Islamic calendar article
Over the past few days, I have several times added some sections to this article, but some people are vehemently opposed to their publication and cancel them immediately, arguing that they read like an essay, that they are opinionated or unbalanced in their presentation of the issues. One of these people said that I should discuss this "controversial" material in the talk page before trying to insert it in the article.

I have therefore thoroughly revised these sections, taking into consideration all the criticisms that had been expressed.

Following the advice I received, I am presenting here to the readers of the talk page the material I want to include in the article. I welcome their observations, suggestions for change of content, editing improvements, etc. I will take their views into account in finalizing the text, before putting it in the article.

Thank you all

Aster77 (talk) 11:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The Islamic calendar is not to be confused with the lunar calendar. The latter is based on a year of 12 months adding up to 354.37 days. Each lunar month begins at the time of the monthly "conjunction", when the Moon is located on a straight line between the Earth and the Sun. The month is defined as the average duration of a rotation of the Moon around the Earth (29.53 days). By convention, months of 30 days and 29 days succeed each other, adding up over two successive months to 59 full days. This leaves only a small monthly variation of 44 mn to account for, which adds up to a total of 24 hours (i.e. the equivalent of one full day) in 2.73 years. To settle accounts, it is sufficient to add one day every three years to the lunar calendar, in the same way that one adds one day to the Gregorian calendar, every four years.
 * Astronomical considerations

The Islamic calendar, however, is based on a different set of conventions. Each Islamic State proceeds with its own monthly observation of the new moon (or, failing that, awaits the completion of 30 days) before declaring the beginning of a new month on its territory. But, the lunar crescent becomes really visible only some 18 hours after the conjunction, and only subject to the existence of a number of favourable conditions relative to weather, time, geographic location, as well as various astronomical parameters. As a result, the beginning of each month differs from one Muslim country to another, and the information provided by the calendar does not extend beyond the current month. Aster77 (talk) 11:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No sourcing, no verification. Consider using inline citations and They refer to the dynasty of Fatimids, in Egypt, which used a pre-calculated calendar over a period of two centuries, between the 10th and 12th centuries, before a change of political regime reactivated the procedure of observation of the new moon.

The proponents of this approach consider that the Messenger’s recommendation to the faithful was merely adapted to the culture of the times, and should not be confused with the acts of worship.

Egyptian cadi Ahmad Muhammad Shakir (who was to become President of the Egyptian Supreme Court of the Shariah at the end of his career, and who remains to this day an author of reference in the field of hadith) is a good representative of the views of this minority of jurists. He wrote a detailed legal opinion in 1939 on the subject of the Islamic calendar, entitled "The beginning of Arab months...is it legal to determine it using astronomical calculations?".

According to him, the Messenger took into account the fact that the Muslim community of his time was "illiterate, not knowing how to write nor how to count". So, he recommended that its members observe the new moon to carry out their religious duties at the time of fasting and hajj. But the community evolved considerably over time, and some of its members even became experts in astronomy. According to the principle of Muslim law which states that "a rule is no longer applicable, when the factor which justified its existence has disappeared", the Messenger’s recommendation didn’t apply anymore to the Muslims, after they had learned to read and count and had ceased being illiterate.

Therefore, according to Shakir, contemporary ulamas commit an error of interpretation when they give to the Messenger’s hadith the same interpretation that applied at the time of Revelation, as if the hadith prescribed immutable rules. But, it has stopped being applicable to the Muslim community long ago, based on the principles of the shari’ah themselves.

Shakir reaches the conclusion that there is nothing in the shari’ah which opposes the use of calculations to determine the beginning of all lunar months, in all circumstances, and not only in special situations, as had been recommended by some ulamas. For him, there can exist only one lunar month applicable in all countries of the world, based on astronomical calculations.

Yusuf al-Qaradawi, a contemporary jurist, endorsed Shakir’s conclusions in a 2004 article entitled "Astronomical calculations and determination of the beginning of months." Aster77 (talk) 11:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "If the Islamic calendar were prepared using astronomical calculations, Muslims throughout the Muslim world could use it to meet all their needs, in all aspects of their life, the way they use the Gregorian calendar today. But, the overwhelming majority of Muslim theologians interpret the Messenger’s recommendation concerning the observation of Ramadan’s new moon as if it were part of the fundamental Islamic dogma." -- Opinionated, unsourced, no attribution.
 * "However, there is a very small minority of Muslim jurists and theologians who think that it is licit and appropriate to use calculations for the establishment of a pre-calculated calendar. They argue that the Qor’an does not prohibit the use of astronomical calculations, and that numerous theologians in the early years of Islam saw no contradiction between the Messenger’s teachings and the use of astronomical calculations to determine the beginnings of lunar months." -- Again, needless usage of words like "however" indicating preference. It's interesting to note that although this viewpoint is of a "very small minority," it is given quite a substantial and preferential coverage, in violation of undue weight policy which prescribes the exact opposite: if a view is in the minority, it does not need nearly as much coverage as more prominent views.  ITAQALLAH   20:31, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Decision of the Fiqh Council of North America (FCNA)

The Fiqh Council of North America (FCNA) has also been regularly confronted with the responsibility of telling its Muslim American audience when to start fasting, when to celebrate « eid al-fitr », etc. After several years of study of the legal issues involved, it reached a decision, which it announced in August 2006, to use henceforth a pre-calculated Islamic calendar, taking into consideration the sightability of the new moon anywhere on Earth.

The FCNA decision aims to meet both the requirements of the traditional interpretation of the shari'ah on this subject and the objective of developing a unified pre-calculated calendar for use throughout the Muslim world.

The FCNA retains the well-known principle of unicity of horizons (matali’e) which states that it is sufficient to observe the new moon anywhere on Earth, in order to declare the beginning of a new lunar month, applicable in all areas in which the information is received. Second, it uses the International date line (IDL) or Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) as its conventional point of reference to conduct its analysis.

Based on the maps of sightability of the new moon in the various regions of Earth, which are now regularly prepared by professional astronomers, the FCNA reached the conclusion that when the conjunction took place before 12:00 noon (GMT), there was enough time left for the new moon to be seen in numerous areas on Earth where sunset took place long before sunset in North America. Since the criteria of sightability of the new moon were met in these areas, the new moon would be observed (or could have been observed if weather conditions had been adequate) long before sunset in North America. Therefore, the requirements of sightability of the new moon as set by the shari’ah would be respected, and the new lunar month could begin in North America on sunset of the same day. On the other hand, if the conjunction took place after 12:00 noon GMT, the month would begin in North America on sunset of the following day.

The FCNA decision aroused interest in many Muslim countries, as witnessed by the international Conference which was held in Morocco in November 2006, to discuss the possibility of adopting a Global Islamic Calendar. According to a report entitled « Breakthrough for Global Islamic Calendar » published on « Moonsighting.com » in late December 2006, an “overwhelming majority of participants, including Saudi, Egyptian, and Irani astronomers agreed with the calendar (adopted by Fiqh Council of North America), that can be used as a Global Islamic Calendar. » . Aster77 (talk) 11:26, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Moonsighting.com is not a reliable academic source. The material apart from that is largely unverified and unsourced. Again, in the light of comments like "The FCNA decision aims to meet both the requirements of the traditional interpretation of the shari'ah on this subject and the objective of developing a unified pre-calculated calendar for use throughout the Muslim world," "Therefore, the requirements of sightability of the new moon as set by the shari’ah would be respected, and the new lunar month could begin in North America on sunset of the same day," or phrases like "the well-known principle" or "regularly prepared by professional astronomers", it reads like a promotional personal essay rather than dry, clinical, encyclopedic expostion. The significance of the FCNA decision is not justified, as it appears very few independent reliable sources have commented on it.  ITAQALLAH   20:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Second draft of proposed additions
I have revised the sections above based on the comments received. The text now stands as follows. Your comments are welcome before it is introduced in the main body of the article:


 * Astronomical considerations

The Islamic calendar is not to be confused with the lunar calendar. The latter is based on a year of 12 months adding up to 354.37 days. Each lunar month begins at the time of the monthly "conjunction", when the Moon is located on a straight line between the Earth and the Sun. The month is defined as the average duration of a rotation of the Moon around the Earth (29.53 days). By convention, months of 30 days and 29 days succeed each other, adding up over two successive months to 59 full days. This leaves only a small monthly variation of 44 mn to account for, which adds up to a total of 24 hours (i.e. the equivalent of one full day) in 2.73 years. To settle accounts, it is sufficient to add one day every three years to the lunar calendar, in the same way that one adds one day to the Gregorian calendar, every four years.

The Islamic calendar, however, is based on a different set of conventions. Each Islamic State proceeds with its own monthly observation of the new moon (or, failing that, awaits the completion of 30 days) before declaring the beginning of a new month on its territory. But, the lunar crescent becomes really visible only some 15-18 hours after the conjunction, and only subject to the existence of a number of favourable conditions relative to weather, time, geographic location, as well as various astronomical parameters. As a result, the beginning of each month differs from one Muslim country to another, and the information provided by the calendar does not extend beyond the current month.


 * Theological considerations

If the Islamic calendar were prepared using astronomical calculations, Muslims throughout the Muslim world could use it to meet all their needs, the way they use the Gregorian calendar today. But, there are divergent views on whether it is licit to do so.

A majority of theologians oppose the use of calculations on the grounds that this would not conform with the Messenger’s recommendation to observe the new moon of Ramadan and Shawal in order to determine the beginning of these months.

But, since there is no prohibition to use astronomical calculations in the Qor’an, some jurists see no contradiction between the Messenger’s teachings and the use of calculations to determine the beginnings of lunar months. They consider that the Messenger’s recommendation was merely adapted to the culture of the times, and should not be confused with the acts of worship.

Thus, jurists Ahmad Muhammad Shakir and Yusuf al-Qaradawi both endorsed the use of calculations to determine the beginning of months.

The Fiqh Council of North America (FCNA) announced in August 2006 that it would henceforth use a pre-calculated Islamic calendar, taking into consideration the sightability of the new moon anywhere on Earth. Aster77 (talk) 15:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Footnote to the sections Astronomic and Theological considerations

The footnotes are as follows:
 * 1) ^ Emile Biémont, Rythmes du temps, Astronomie et calendriers, De Borck, 2000, 393p
 * 2) ^ Karim Meziane et Nidhal Guessoum : La visibilité du croissant lunaire et le ramadan, La Recherche n° 316, janvier 1999, pp. 66-71
 * 3) ^ Allal el Fassi : « Aljawab assahih wannass-hi al-khaliss ‘an nazilati fas wama yata’allaqo bimabda-i acchouhouri al-islamiyati al-arabiyah », "[...] and the beginning of Islamic Arab months", report prepared at the request of King Hassan II of Morocco, Rabat, 1965 (36 p.), with no indication of editor
 * 4) ^ Muhammad Mutawalla al-Shaârawi : Fiqh al-halal wal haram (edited by Ahmad Azzaâbi), Dar al-Qalam, Beyrouth, 2000, p. 88
 * 5) ^ Abderrahman al-Haj : « The faqih, the politician and the determination of lunar months » (in arabic)
 * 6) ^ Allal el Fassi : "Aljawab assahih..." op. cit.
 * 7) ^ The dynasty of Fatimids in Egypt used a tabular pre-calculated calendar over a period of two centuries, between the 10th and 12th centuries, before a change of political regime reactivated the procedure of observation of the new moon.
 * 8) ^ The Islamic calendar
 * 9) ^ Ahmad Shakir : « The beginning of arab months … is it legal to determine it using astronomical calculations? » (published in arabic in 1939) reproduced in the Arab daily « Al-Madina », 13 october 2006 (n° 15878)
 * 10) ^ Yusuf al-Qaradawi : « Astronomical calculations and determination of the beginning of months » (in arabic)
 * 11) ^ Fiqh Council of North America Islamic lunar calendar
 * 12) ^ The decision of FCNA retains the well-known principle of unicity of horizons (matali’e) which states that it is sufficient to observe the new moon anywhere on Earth, in order to declare the beginning of a new lunar month, applicable in all areas in which the information is received. It uses the International date line (IDL) or Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) as its conventional point of reference to conduct its analysis. Based on the maps of sightability of the new moon in the various regions of Earth, which are now regularly prepared by professional astronomers, the FCNA reached the conclusion that when the conjunction took place before 12:00 noon (GMT), there was enough time left for the new moon to be seen in numerous areas on Earth where sunset took place long before sunset in North America. Since the criteria of sightability of the new moon were met in these areas, the new moon would be observed (or could have been observed if weather conditions had been adequate) long before sunset in North America. Therefore, the requirements of sightability of the new moon as set by the shari’ah would be respected, and the new lunar month could begin in North America on sunset of the same day. On the other hand, if the conjunction took place after 12:00 noon GMT, the month would begin in North America on sunset of the following day.
 * 1) ^ The decision of FCNA retains the well-known principle of unicity of horizons (matali’e) which states that it is sufficient to observe the new moon anywhere on Earth, in order to declare the beginning of a new lunar month, applicable in all areas in which the information is received. It uses the International date line (IDL) or Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) as its conventional point of reference to conduct its analysis. Based on the maps of sightability of the new moon in the various regions of Earth, which are now regularly prepared by professional astronomers, the FCNA reached the conclusion that when the conjunction took place before 12:00 noon (GMT), there was enough time left for the new moon to be seen in numerous areas on Earth where sunset took place long before sunset in North America. Since the criteria of sightability of the new moon were met in these areas, the new moon would be observed (or could have been observed if weather conditions had been adequate) long before sunset in North America. Therefore, the requirements of sightability of the new moon as set by the shari’ah would be respected, and the new lunar month could begin in North America on sunset of the same day. On the other hand, if the conjunction took place after 12:00 noon GMT, the month would begin in North America on sunset of the following day.

I can see you've made several productive changes to the text, so well done. I'd recommend you do away with footnote #12 because it still reads as an opinion being presented as fact, or at least preferred. I'll have a closer read through soon and post my thoughts. Thanks.  ITAQALLAH  20:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Comments


 * All proposed additions by Aster77 are moot because they are old news. Conjunction before Greenwich mean noon adopted by the FCNA on 10 June 2006 was abandoned by the FCNA on 1 August 2007 when it adopted the Umm al-Qura calendar without modification. This is already stated in the article at the end of Islamic calendar. — Joe Kress (talk) 09:41, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I have taken into account the observations formulated, and further reduced the text of the addition I want to make to this article. I think it now fits with all requirements.Aster77 (talk) 09:56, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Anyone knows when the Muslim calendar will catch up/overtake Gregorian years?
i've been dying to know, but calculating this has been such a hassle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.54.27.11 (talk) 15:32, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The answer is already in the article at Islamic calendar. An Islamic year will occur within a Gregorian year with the same number in 20874. — Joe Kress (talk) 20:29, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 14:39, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Coincidence?
I was playing around with Microsoft's calendar options and found that only the year changed (2008-09-18 to 1429-09-18). Is this just Microsoft not bothering to calculate dates or is today really 09-18 in both calendars? 212.137.63.86 (talk) 11:31, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Microsoft calculates its Islamic dates via the "Kuwaiti algorithm" which is simply the dominant arithmetical Islamic calendar according to Robert van Gent in his Islamic-Western Calendar Converter. Using that method, 2008-09-18 Gregorian is indeed 1429-09-18 Islamic. Even though the arithmetical calendar is rarely used officially, the Islamic date determined officially by any of several methods worldwide will be within a day or two. — Joe Kress (talk) 19:59, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Editing the history section
After reading the article carefully, I've realized that the only section that needs editing is the history setion. The problem with this section is that it presents the intercalary month as a given fact. I'm changing this section to make it more neutral. Here's what I'm thinking of doing:

-The section mentions that the ancient arabian calendar was lunisolar. This is a POV. I'm changing it to show that there are two opinions: one that it was lunisolar, and other that it was lunar.

-The article defines Nasi as intercalation. Again this is a POV. I'm putting two definitions for Nasi.

-The article constantly refers to the "intercalary month". I'm changing this to "the Nasi" to make it more neutral.

-I'm not satisfied with the english text of the Prophet's sermon. It has the word intercalation in it but when I checked the arabic text of Ibn Ishaq's version I found the word an-nasi'. I can't change the translation beause that would be original research. So I'm removing the text of the Prophet's sermon but I will keep the reference to it.

The purpose of these changes is to make the article more neutral. Comments are welcome. Sci fi writer (talk) 18:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with much of what you wrote, but you have some misunderstandings as well, hence I reverted your preliminary edit, pending discussion. I agree that "annuling nasi" or even "nasi" is an appropriate section title. It may even be translated as "postponement" with both interpretations. I judge from the articles in the "Encyclopaedia of Islam" that roughly equal numbers of scholars, whether Muslim or Western, hold the two interpretations of nasi, hence the two views must be given equal weight according to Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. The translation of the paragraph in the farewell sermon to which you object came from the Sahih Muslim collection of hadith, so certainly not all hadith scholars agree with you. Furthermore, Muslim astronomers, beginning in the second century AH, state that nasi means an intercalary month. Western scholars hold both views. Indeed, F.C. de Blois, who wrote the part of ta'rikh I referenced, holds your view. On the other hand, inscriptions survive which show that the pre-Islamic South Arabian kingdoms of Kataban (Oman) and Saba (Yemen) used lunisolar calendars featuring intercalary months that were obtained by repeating a normal month.


 * Many translations of the farewell sermon paragraph exist. The following was the original translation in the article before AMSA83 replaced it with the Sahih Muslim version:
 * O People, the unbelievers indulge in tampering with the calendar in order to make permissible that which Allah forbade, and to forbid that which Allah has made permissible. With Allah the months are twelve in number. Four of them are holy, three of these are successive and one occurs singly between the months of Jumada and Shaban.
 * This can found in a few places such as ibn Muslim. Similar versions are from Quraan.com, from the Islamic Society of North America, and from The Importance of the Ahl al-Sunnah pp.216-217.
 * The translation by Burnaby could be used:
 * Certainly the Nasi is an impious addition, which has led the infidels into error. One year they authorise the Nasi, another year they forbid it. They observe the divine precept with respect to the number of the sacred months, but in fact they profane that which God has declared to be inviolable, and sanctify that which God has declared to be profane. Assuredly time, in its revolution, has returned to such as it was at the creation of the heavens and the earth. In the eyes of God the number of the months is twelve. Among these twelve months four are sacred, namely, Rajab, which stands alone, and three others which are consecutive.
 * This is similar to the Sahih Muslim version now in the article but is more nasi neutral except for the "revolution of time" sentence. These translations reveal two versions of this paragraph of the sermon, one short and another long. I need to review my sources to properly reword the sections. — Joe Kress (talk) 08:22, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm adding a more neutral version of Nasi, but it still needs more work. — Joe Kress (talk) 00:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Fictional intercalary month
What's this nonesense about abolishing a fictional intercalary month? There is no historical source that I'm aware of mentioning that Muhammad abolished an intercalary month. For all we know, arabs before Muhammad used a purely lunar calendar. The cited verse has nothing to do with intercalary months. The verse talks about switching holy months. You see, before Muhammad arabs used to switch holy months as often as they liked. So for example they would make the holy month of Muharram a normal month and make a normal month like Jumada holy for that particular year. So why is this versed cited here? I'm deleting the entire paragraph about intercalary month unless someone show me a reliable source which mention abolishing intercalary months (which is highly unlikely). Sci fi writer (talk) 21:00, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, lycos.com has a reference to it here, citing this page. Christian Churches of God has a fairly POV article on the subject here as well. A book by the US Naval Observatory refers to it here, as do several others here and here. I hope that's enough. John Carter (talk) 21:20, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * FWIW, the wikia page is a copy of our article, in large parts at least. Amalthea  21:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * There's also a bit about it at The Remaining Signs of Past Centuries and At-Tawba, but I haven't looked at the respective sources too deeply. Amalthea  21:44, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Muhammad himself stated in the cited verse from his farewell sermon (Islamic calendar) that he is abolishing the intercalary month, "O People, intercalation is an addition to unbelief ..." For a discussion of intercalated months before Islam and their prohibition by Muhammad see al-Biruni, "Intercalation of the Ancient Arabs" in The Chronology of Ancient Nations, p.73–74 (written in 1000 CE), mentioned by Amalthea under the name The Remaining Signs of Past Centuries. — Joe Kress (talk) 22:52, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Another discussion is by S. B. Burnaby, Elements of the Jewish and Muhammadan calendars (1901) in Part II: The Muhammadan Calendar, page 367. He states that Arabs originally used a purely lunar calendar, but in 412 CE they adopted a lunisolar calendar containing an intercalary month named Nasi, which Muhammad prohibited in 632 CE. Burnaby's English version of the farewell sermon actually replaces "intercalation" with "the Nasi" indicating that Muhammad used the name of the intercalary month, "Nasi". — Joe Kress (talk) 01:56, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

The word "intercalation" is a mistranslation of the verse. The original arabic word in the verse is an-nasi' which means literaly delaying, not intercalation. All the quran commentaries that I'm aware of explain this word as refering to the delaying/switching of holy months, not to intercalation. Check for example the commentary of Ibn Kathir. As for the Remaining Signs of the Past Centuries, I'll check the original arabic text because I don't think it mentions intercalation. Now you mentioned Sherrard Burnaby, this proves that at least one scholar believes in the existense of an intercalary month. But that still doesn't change the fact that the early arabic sources -especially the Quran commentaries- mention nothing about an intercalary month and explain the verse as refering to the switching of holy months. The problem with this article is that it presents the intercalary month as an undisputed fact, even though in reality the very existense of an intercalary month is supported by a small number of scholars. Sci fi writer (talk) 05:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * In E.J. Brill's first encyclopaedia of Islam NASI' is defined as an "intercalary month, intercalation, or man on whose authority an intercalation is undertaken". However it is also connected to "postpone". In addition to intercalation it may mean the "transference of the sanctity of one holy month to another, in itself not holy". The equivalent article in the Encyclopaedia of Islam has almost identical wording. In The Encyclopaedia of Islam article TA'RIKH (chronology) section "Pre-Islamic and agricultural calendars of the Arabian peninsula" these dual meanings are applied to Sura 9:37. One group of Muslim scholars "maintain that nasi'  was a procedure by which an official (the nasi' ) connected with the Ka'ba cult at Mecca altered the distribution of 'forbidden' and 'permitted' months within a given year (or within two successive years)". Others, notably Muslim astronomers and modern scholars, "claim that the 'postponement' of the forbidden months was the result of the fact that the pagan Arabs intercalated a thirteenth month every two years; nasi'  is thus in effect the old Arabic word for 'intercalation' (kabisa), a practice wnich was abolished with the revelation of the above-cited verse." — Joe Kress (talk) 06:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Joe for bringing this to my attention. So according to the Encyclopaedia of Islam, Muslim scholars believe that Nasi refers to the delaying of forbidden months while astronomers and western scholars believe it refers to intercalation. This could be a good basis for editing the article. Sci fi writer (talk) 16:29, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

This may be worth some attention: The Quran says there are 12 months in a year Repentance: (9-36):"twelve is the number of months with God." Now, this statement is only justified if the number of months used in a year, as used by the Arabs at the time, differed from twelve. Because the Quran didn't use to present evident facts to the people, only things which were especially worth a particular mention. On this basis, I personally would think that the intercalary month did exist at the time, as mentioned by several sources, especially since the Jews living in Arabia had a calendar which used the procedure of intercalation.Aster77 (talk) 17:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Days of the week in Urdu?
The days of the week should just be listed in Arabic (without Urdu translations). As much as I love Urdu, this is an English language article about the Hijri calender, which is in Arabic. Urdu is not even the most common language spoken among Muslims, so better just leave that to the Urdu article (the Persian as well). The Persian days of the week could go in an article describing the Persian calendar system. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.108.75.198 (talk • contribs) 08:59, 3 June 2009

Cleanup of article
I have eliminated most redundancies, some incoherences between the propositions presented in different sections, some factual errors, some dubious statements, and tried to improve style and readibility.Aster77 (talk) 11:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Jahiliyya
Pease, take a look here. What do wikipedians think about this question? --Vermondo (talk) 19:02, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * An anonymous editor, 93.32.59.132, just added a direct prohibition of years "before Hijra" to this article as follows:
 * The years preceding the Hijra are not cosidered in this calendar (Muslims regard these times simply as the Jahiliyyah, i.e. "the age of ignorance"), and calendars calculating years BH are nonsense ["Christian dates before 622 AD cannot be converted into Islamic dates as no - chronology exists" (Computus calendar conversion program).]
 * I am moving this statement to this talk page for discussion because a blanket prohibition makes no sense. According to its article, Jahiliyyah means the time before the Qu'ran was revealed, which began in 610 CE, hence in 12 BH. Furthermore, Muhammad is said to have been born in 53 BH (570 CE) in . www.understanding-islam.com uses both before Hijra and Jahiliyyah in . An Islamic book and a life of Abu Bakr  use before Hijra years. So some "before Hijra" years are in common use in Islamic literature. — Joe Kress (talk) 07:40, 6 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Of course, some dates around hijra times are sometimes referred to as "this fact happened NN years before Hijra", but this is limited to a few decades, less than a century. In no book of history you will find, for instance, Roman Empire dates expressed like, say: "546 BH" or something alike. The problem is also linked with the fact that up to a certain time years were "full years" and not lunar years as in Islamic times, so years before hijra should be calculated in another way. I think that wikipedia calendar calculating such years in this way is quite nonsense. --93.32.52.197 (talk) 00:04, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Admitting that less than a century of years are sometimes identified as "before Hijra" was excluded by your first edit. So both of us agree that a limited number of years are identified as "before Hijra". However, "Jahiliyyah" (the age of ignorance) cannot be stated as the reason that more years are not so identified unless you provide a reliable source which explicitly links "Jahiliyyah" with years "before Hijra". The source should be in English because this is the English Wikipedia. "Full years" vs lunar years is a separate issue already discussed in the article under History concerning the meaning of "Nasi", and on this talk page immediately above, beginning at . — Joe Kress (talk) 21:31, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Islamic Calendar
Islamic Calendar is used only for Ramzan Fasting, Haj pilgrimage and Eid festivities. For all other purposes Gregorian calendar is used. Quran regards moon and the sun merely as sign for counting time and days as follows:

002.189 They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage....

010.005 It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for her; that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). Nowise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand.

At the dawn of Islam there were no printed calendars, no watches and the concept of hours and minutes developed in some 600 years later. The dates were counted by the year of elephants by watching moon and time by the movement of sun. According to old traditions the advice of Prophet Mohammed was as follows:

(1)	Narrated Ibn 'Umar: The Prophet said, "We are an illiterate nation; we neither write, nor know accounts. The month is like this and this, i.e. sometimes of 29 days and sometimes of thirty days." (2)	Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet or Abu-l-Qasim said, "Start fasting on seeing the crescent (of Ramadan), and give up fasting on seeing the crescent (of Shawwal), and if the sky is overcast (and you cannot see it), complete thirty days of Sha'ban."

Around 9th centuries Muslim astronomers mapped movement of stars, sun and moon and found that the moon is about one fourth of the size of the earth and moves around Earth at an average distance of 238,857 miles, and completes one revolution around Earth in a little more than 27 days. And deep in West of Mecca the moon tends to appear a day earlier and deep in East a day or two later. As Islam had spread in different continents and the means of communications were not swift, it was difficult to determine as to when the new moon was sighted at Mecca. Therefore, Fatmid Caliphs and Imam prescribed a calendar in 10th century developed by the great astronomer Albairooni that dispensed with the need for actual moon sighting in order to maintain uniformity in Islamic world.

That calendar is still used in Egypt, Syria and most Arab world as also Bohra community in India and Pakistan and they do not see any need for sighting moon even for Ramzan. But Saudi bigots insist that the calendar should be adjusted every month based on moon sighting in Mecca. And orthodox Ulemas in India and Pakistan and North America insist that fasting and Eid must be based on moon sighting in their own country.

Bigoted Ulemas fail to realize that nowhere in Holy Quran the actual sighting of moon has been made mandatory and the Traditions (Hadiths) do not prescribe a categorical practice for all times to come and that advice was meant for Meccans of that time who used to count time and dates by movement of moon and sun and the calendars and wathces were not available to them. That is why in many Muslim communities the calendar is adjusted every month and at least two to three different sets are followed in different countries. The Muslims who do not believe in the monthly adjustment are in minority.

Shah N. Khan http://www.magway.net/paklink


 * The moon sighting should not be characterized as a misguided notion of "bigoted ulemas" or "saudi bigots".  Numerous verses in the Qur'an (6:4, 3:32, 3:132, 4:69, 47:33, etc.) command muslims to obey the messenger (Muhammed).  To muslims, the Qur'an mandates that the verbal and practical traditions of Muhammed are executable directives transmitted through Muhammed to the believers.


 * Muslim #2379 states "Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Observe fast on sighting it (the new moon) and break (fast) on sighting it (the new moon), but if the sky is cloudy for you, then complete the number (of thirty)." Muhammed did not qualify this statement with a time constraint, or say "unless you can calculate it's appearance".


 * Muslim #2391 states "Kuraib reported that Umm Fadl, daughter of Harith, sent him (Fadl, i. e. her son) to Mu'awiya in Syria. I (Fadl) arrived in Syria, and did the needful for her. It was there in Syria that the month of Ramadan commenced. I saw the new moon (of Ramadan) on Friday. I then came back to Medina at the end of the month. Abdullah b. 'Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) asked me (about the new moon of Ramadan) and said: When did you see it? I said.: We saw it on the night of Friday. He said: (Did) you see it yourself? -I said: Yes, and the people also saw it and they observed fast and Mu'awiya also observed fast, whereupon he said: But we saw it on Saturday night. So we would continue to observe fast till we complete thirty (lasts) or we see it (the new moon of Shawwal). I said: Is the sighting of the moon by Mu'awiya not valid for you? He said: No; this is how the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) has commanded us." This practice demonstrates that different localities may begin or end a month based on the actual sighting at that locality.  There is no requirement that all muslim regions are uniform with respect to the calender.  Or, that every nation must adapt to meccan time.


 * Abu Dawud #2331 states "Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar: Husayn ibn al-Harith al-Jadli from the tribe of Jadilah Qays said: The governor of Mecca delivered a speech and said: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) took a pledge from us that we should perform the rites of hajj after sighting the moon. If we do not sight it and two reliable persons bear witness (that it was sighted), we should perform the rites of hajj on the basis of their witness."


 * There are no known utterences from Muhammed that prescribe, or support, computational predictions of astronomical events. Nor are there any prescriptions from Muhammed that moon sightings are only for meccans or Saudis.  Modern dependence on computational methodologies is not consistent with the islamic tradition that religion should be simple, even for an uneducated, illiterate believer.  While many scholars do support the use of computational techniques to ease the practice of the religion, there are no mandates by anyone that requires these techniques to be used.  The same scholars that support computational techniques also support moon sighting.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdullah PBA (talk • contribs) 05:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Define AH
Somehow "AH" needs to be defined before it is used, perhaps with a reference to the section of the article where it is explained fully. I was confused when I first saw AH. I'm not sure how to do this best. Bruce 20:11, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)


 * It clearly means "After Hijra" Dr B2 (talk) 04:47, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Conversions
What is the present year number in the Islamic calendar? 1379? A sentence in the text like the year 2000 in the Gregorian calendar was 1378 (or what?) in the Islamic might be good.

Of course, when does the Islamic calendar change years? Certainly this changes in respect to the Gregorian calendar as the Islamic months process in relation to the Gregorian. So maybe a page that said 2000 in the Gregorian was 1378 in the Islamic until Sept. (or whenever) and was 5709 (or whatever) in Hebrew until .... etc. with other calendars. Anyone know what these years are?

The present year (beginning in 2001 AD) is 1422. This is larger than 1378, because the year always has just 12 lunar months and so is about 11 days shorter than the Gregorian Calendar year.

The present year is 1430 AH and began in December 2008. Lunar years are either 354 or 355 days long, which means that they are 10-12 days shorter than the solar year. Riyadhrambler (talk) 17:10, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

This article and the article July 16 both state that the first day of the first year of the Islamic calendar corresponds to July 16, 622. Is that July 16 Julian or Gregorian? (At the time, the Gregorian calendar now in general use had not been developed, and the only contemporaneous "July 16" was actually the Julian one, which would have been a week or so off from the Gregorian count, I think. --Haruo (talk) 05:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually the difference would be only 3 days at that time. Dates before 15 October 1582 Gregorian are conventionally given in the Julian Calendar and so this can be assumed unless specified otherwise. The epoch date is thus July 19 in the proleptic Gregorian calendar. Karl (talk)

The corresponding year that would be 1387-1388 would be from the Iranian calendar. ArdClose (talk) 19:31, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Lunar or not?
In the introduction of the page the article says that the Islamic calendar is lunar, but in the "Astronomical considerations" section it says specifically that it's "not to be confused with the lunar calendar". Which is it? The lunar calendar page clearly indicates that the Islamic calendar is a lunar calendar, so the astronomical considerations section appears to be making a very fine distinction in a confusing manner - since it suggests that 'actual' lunar calendars have an intercalary month, while the lunar calendar page claims that this is actually a feature of lunisolar calendars and that the Islamic calendar is an example of a purely lunar one. 118.93.77.8 (talk) 06:55, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Converter
It would be great if someone who understands computing could design a converter for this page, so the reader can put in a date and get the date in the other calendar. It wouldn't be hard to do for someone who understands these things. Other Wiki pages have special mini-programs attached for various useful subject-specific effects. --Doric Loon (talk) 13:02, 17 April 2010 (UTC)


 * The page now has several date converters. — Glenn L (talk) 06:01, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Pre-Islamic pilgrimage
This line

"Other scholars, both Muslim[5][6] and Western,[7][8] concur that it was originally a lunar calendar, but about 200 years before the Hijra it was transformed into a lunisolar calendar containing an intercalary month added from time to time to keep the pilgrimage within the season of the year when merchandise was most abundant for Bedouin buyers."

is confusing to me. If the Hijra was Mohamed' move from Mecca to Medina (and presumably the beginning of Islam) then this change in Calendar calculation took place before the existence of Islam (or so it reads). Why then is there a reference to Pilgrimage in the same sentence when none could possibly have existed when this change took place? Did other types of pilgrimages occur prior to the establishment of Islam? If so, shouldn't there be a distinction made between that and the Islamic definition?Hschlarb (talk) 03:36, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The pilgrimage to Mecca or Hajj existed long before Muhammad. Indeed, according to Islamic tradition, it has existed since the time of Abraham, who built the Kaaba, its main focus, in some form, also according to Islamic tradition. The main purpose of the pilgrimage was to vist the Kaaba, to worship the idols around it, and to attend the annual fair held there to buy merchandise. Muhammad destroyed the idols, but otherwise continued to observe the pilgrimage. Of course, several Islamic elements have been added to pilgrimage, such as a visit to Mount Arafat in commemoration of Muhammad's Farewell Sermon, the Stoning of the Devil, and circling the Kaaba seven times (Tawaf). The annual fair now takes the form of Eid al-Adha. — Joe Kress (talk) 19:42, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting. I see traditional patterns that move from religion to religion. Christianity converts Sol Invictus into Christmas. Islam converts a pilgrimage to a pagan site into something more focussed. Judaism must also have an equivalent. You got to go with what works.Hschlarb (talk) 02:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Muslims believe that Islam was created by God and the first muslim was Adam. The pilgrimage to the kaaba begun by the muslim prophet Abraham was corrupted over time into a pagan festival.  The islamic pilgrimage isn't an adaptation from another religion, rather it is a restoration of the original muslim tradition.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdullah PBA (talk • contribs) 04:13, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It would be most beneficial if you could provide citations from third party sources Hschlarb (talk) 02:10, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Read first comment, and, by the way, you can type and search yourself, or are you too spoonfed to do research. Plus, Christianity changed dates due to an emperor of non-christian decent, Islam did not experience such and allowed for it to continue, please blanket statements makes you stupid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.88.212 (talk) 02:26, 7 November 2010 (UTC)