Talk:Isle of Lewis/Archive 1

Untitled
Doesn't the name Leodhas come from Leod the King of Man and the Northern Isles who used to rule the western isles?

No - It comes from the old Norse Ljodhus meaning water lying on the surface. It may mean Land of the People however. Leod was a relative of Olaf the Black and took the name from Ljodhus his realm. This founded the Clan McLeod who ruled Lewis until ousted by MacKenzie of Kintail and the Scots crown in 1611. There are still 3,000 Macleods on the island today. So many misleading inaccuracies on this. I wonder who ill-educated buffoons who write this are!

Whats the Gaelic word for peat-covered?
Mointeach

derived from the Gaelic word for "peat-covered"

Flag


Sorry, this flag flys at the home of the Honorary Norwegian Consulate for the Islands and is not the Lewis flag. -- User:86.133.145.30 01:52, 6 October 2005 [comment moved from article page -- Solipsist 08:59, 6 October 2005 (UTC)]
 * I can't comment, but there has been similar discussion about the Hebridian flags being incorrect at Talk:Harris. -- Solipsist 09:03, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Never mind about flags, there is no "Honorary Norwegian Consulate for the Islands"! The only Norwegian family I know live on the Braigh (Stornoway, Lewis) and fly the normal Norwegian flag, not the Lewis flag, on a big flagpole outside their home! 81.69.148.189 22:21, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

This family are the Honorary Norwegian Consulate and also the Honorary Swedish Consulate - That is a fact!


 * There is no Lewis flag, it's a load of rubbish whoever keeps putting it on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.59.233 (talk • contribs) 18:51, 26 April 2006

I tend to agree that there is no Lewis flag; but I could well be wrong. Is there anyone out-there who has actually seen it in use anywhere official? It's not quite enough to add "(unofficial)" to the end as I could draw a flag myself with my crayons and call it the unofficial Lewis flag. As no one seems to know where it's from or what it's for, it's best to leave it out unless a very reliable source can be found for its accuracy imho. MRM 12:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The saga of the flag of the Isle of Lewis is explained, in full, here. Lianachan 22:22, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The page in question identifies the flag as a fake. MRM 12:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Indeed it does. That was my point. Lianachan 22:25, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I wrote the original "fake" discussion on FOTW. It certainly does not identify the Lewis flag as a fake but this debate should be left alone now.--Scotthatton 15:57, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

remove redirect
May we please remove the redirect when one types in 'Lewis', that automatically ends in this page? With all respect, there are enough other Lewises out there, many historical figures, that the disambig page would be the better one to redirect to, as being more general. Thanks for your consideration Kintetsubuffalo 08:25, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
 * No sorry, that was unwise. Just because there are a number of people with a surname 'Lewis' does not mean that the disambiguation page should at 'Lewis'. There will be very few if any links to any of those people where an editor just tried linking the word 'Lewis'. Nearly all links to biographical articles are made with the first name and last name. People trying to search for an article on someone called Lewis where they vaguely remember the name is a separate matter and is handled by the standard link to a disambiguation page at the top of the article.
 * As such the only contention is amoungst other places and things called just 'Lewis'. Of these the Isle of Lewis in Scotland is almost certainly the most prominent one. A good clue as to where an article should be is the check the 'What links here' page. If you had tried this you would have found that there are already a large number of links to Lewis the island. This isn't the whole story however - to be sure you also need to check the 'What links here' on each of the items on the disambig page to check how many of them were originally trying to link to just 'Lewis' and have already been disambigged. If you can find one of the other Lewis' with a large number of disambig links, you would then have a good case to open a request at WP:RM. Even then, it was a mistake to move this page to Lewis, Scotland, the other most natural title would have been Isle of Lewis. -- Solipsist 00:29, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Agree with Solipsist - the 'What links here' page is the clincher. --JBellis 19:27, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Ljóðhús -> Leòdhas -> Lewis (Old Norse->Gaelic->English)
My family are from Lewis and I've often wondered where the name came from. It's obvious that virtually all the place names on the Island are not Gaelic but Gaelic spellings of Norse name places. My ex-wife is Icelandic and the Icelandic language today is effectively a modern version of Old Norse. One of our many Icelandic friends who knew about my connection to the Island found a map from Oslo, in a text book, dating back some several hundred years. He photocopied the map and presented it to me. He & the other Icelanders present then proceeded to go over the many places names on the map translating them. On a side note if you visit Iceland today you will find places with names like "Ness", "Grimishader", "Reef", etc. (my former father-in-law even called Lewis in his own tongue "Súðreyjar", see Wiki entry for "Western Isles") The most interesting marking on the map was the name of the Island in large letter across it, Ljóðhús. This the Icelanders told me was simply just "The Poet's House(Home)". If you take time to read the Icelandic (Old Norse) Saga's you will learn that Poetry is a central part of the Old Norse custom. Take for example Egil's Saga where he saves his life by composing a long, witty poem to present to the Norwegian King on the morning of his execution. Poetry was held in very high regard by the Nordic people of those ages and still is an important part today in Icelandic and Scandanvian culture. So the translation of the Island makes a lot of sense, I would think that the poet the name refers to is Leod the 12th century ruler of the island. So MacLeod would be "son of the poet". I have a copy of the map, feel free to ask me for a viewing and if you want confirmation of my claims show it to any scholar of Old Norse or an Icelander to verify what I've updated the entry for Lewis with.


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

don't move. &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) 14:50, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

 * Lewis → Lewis, Scotland &mdash; This no longer serves being the main name, when there is a disambig page and several people and placenames for the name &mdash; Talk:Lewis &mdash; Chris 00:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with  ~


 * support move, for the above reasons.
 * Oppose proposed move, but support move to "Isle of Lewis" with a redirect from "Lewis". Blisco 08:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Lewis should point at the island as the primary meaning, although Blisco's suggestion sounds ok as well. The people aren't referred to as just "Lewis", and the various American towns are all relatively insignificant. — sjorford++ 09:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose the island appears to be the primary usage of just 'Lewis'. -- Solipsist 09:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose, the current name Lewis is fine, and as has been said, it is not expected for modern people to be known by their first name. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 15:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose Solipsist's analysis of the numbers is compelling. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose There seems to be no good reason to move it. --MRM 17:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Discussion
As there are multiple Lewises, of import to different groups of people, I have requested to the moderators to move this page to "Lewis, Scotland". Not worried about which is more notable, more about each being notable enough to have their specifics mentioned in the title of their article, as per Wikipedia policy. Chris 01:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Whatever title it's moved to, the island is almost certainly the primary meaning of "Lewis" without further qualification, so "Lewis" should redirect here - on no account should it become the disambiguation page. I would propose moving to Isle of Lewis rather than Lewis, Scotland, as that is more natural to link to and is already a redirect with a number of links to it. The same set-up already works well for Isle of Skye. Lewis, Scotland, meanwhile, has no incoming links other than from this page and the requested moves page. -- Blisco 08:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

There are some 240 links coming into this page (although about 60 of them are via a redirect from Isle of Lewis). That establishes that this page is in the correct place and people naturally link the word 'Lewis' meaning the island. Most of the other links on Lewis (disambiguation) are to homophones or places that include Lewis in the name, but that are not necessarily refered to as just 'Lewis'. Similarly few if any of the people on Lewis (surname) would be linked as just 'Lewis'. So unless someone can show that any of these other pages have anything like 240 links, this page should stay here. -- Solipsist 09:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Language
There has been an alteration to the language spoken in Lewis which is plainly ridiculous. Having grown up and lived on the island most of my life, I can assure you that while there is a large gaidhlig speaking population, English is the dominant language. I am not saying this is a good or a bad thing, just that it is. The vast majority of education on the islands is carried out through the English language. Children speak English in the playgrounds. Exams are in English. There are, however, some gaidhlig-medium units about now, but this is unlikely to change the situation any time soon. Were this article about Lewis roughly 60-70 years ago, then it would be right to say that English is only spoken now due to a few immigrants.
 * You're mistaking first-hand opinion for fact and thereby violating Wikipedia NPOV policy. Regardless of the relative social statuses of Scottish Gaelic and English on Lewis and your attitude to both, as an encyclopaedia entry it is important from a factual point of view to explain that the island is a stronghold for Gaelic. (This does not diminish the reality of English on Lewis, either.) The 2001 Census has confirmed this &mdash; it's not some massive anti-English, pro-Gaelic conspiracy. It's just a fact of life. 193.61.176.49 23:29, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

With respect, the fact that the census says most people speak it does not make it the predominant language. If you have ever been there, you will realise what most people speak is the equivalent of franglish. There are very few true gaidhlig speakers left, especially in the town. It is you who is violating the NPOV policy and are mistaking opinion for fact. I do wish that it were the main language, as it is terrible to lose a culture, it is in a process of revival but is nowhere near the main language. You can easily find non-gaidhlig speakers there (not just incomers) but try finding a non-english speaking adult!
 * What's a "true Gaelic speaker"? Whether I have been to Lewis or not is irrelevant. I haven't been to the Moon but it doesn't mean I'm barred from writing entries about it. Your assertions about Gaelic are based on subjective experience and violate Wikipedia's "no research" policy. I'm not surprised that you haven't heard much Gaelic in Steornabhagh - it's long been recognised as Galltacht - but the article is about Lewis, not Steornabhagh. And Lewis, according to established official sources that Wikipedia relies on (for example, the 2001 Census), is predominantly Gaelic-speaking. Wishing either way, and your personal opinions, are literally irrelevant. This isn't a personal attack, just a reminder that Wikipedia is based on sources, not suppositions. 193.61.177.96 16:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * To give my totally objective (although based on years of living on Lewis and being married to a Lewis born and bred woman) opinion, I would say that English is by far the predominant language - although I would say that "Highland English" would be a more accurate term, as many Gaelic words are commonly used and a Gaelic grammatical construct is obvious. There are very few people on the island who would consider Gaelic their first language, and I would be very surprised to encounter anybody who could not speak English. Lewis is a Gaelic stronghold, yes, but that's more to do with the promotion of the language and culture than it has to do with everyday use by the population at large. Lianachan 17:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * By all means add this if you can find a source to support it. My argument is not that English does not exist on Lewis, but that Gaelic does too, and that this should be pointed out in the article as it has been in the 2001 census. Most of the articles on the Western Isles prior to my edits elided Gaelic altogether (whilst mentioning accents in English), which is clearly not an encyclopaedic reflection of the linguistic reality of the islands either. 193.61.177.96 17:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * But you appear to be labouring under the misapprehension that Gaelic is the principle language of the Isle Of Lewis. It most certainly is not.  Of course the article should mention Gaelic, but it is entirely inaccurate to suggest it plays the role you seem to be suggesting it does. Lianachan 20:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If "it most certainly is not" you should be able to find a slew of sources, which you can cite when you re-write the paragraph to the effect that Lewis is an English-speaking Galltacht island with only urban legend-like remembrances of Gaelic. While you are at it, you might want to amend the 2001 Census page to point out that its data misrepresents the linguistic reality of Lewis. 193.61.177.95 21:30, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

You can say that New Zealand is full of Jedis, by quoting the census. Lewis has a lot of Gaidhlig speakers, certainly, but even out of Stornoway, the majority of people speak English. Apart from a few Gaidhlig medium units, education is primarily through English. Just as I cannot "prove" there are no Jedi in New Zealand, I cannot prove what is true in that most people in Lewis are anglophones.


 * But that's the problem: if you can't find evidence, you're left with supposition. Wikipedia is not built on supposition any more than it is built on outright lies. Some of the other contributors to this page seem to be trying to pretend that Gaelic does not "really" exist on Lewis, because of bilingualism with English. It's akin to saying that the likes of Gwynedd and Anglesey do not speak Welsh, because the people there also know English (even though they prefer Welsh). Now, there are a number of reasons why English speakers on Lewis &mdash; or anywhere else in the Western Isles for that matter &mdash; could live in an English-speaking milieu on the island (in the same way that Anglophone migrants or natives in Gwynedd and Anglesey can avoid learning Welsh), but they should not deduce from that that Gaelic does not thrive there. 193.61.177.95 21:30, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I notice some one has altered the paragraph on language to chime with the English language only camp on the Talk page. I have pointed out where references are required to support these statements, some of which use unencyclopaedic register ("any hint of Gaelic", "pure Gaelic") or outright take-my-word-for-it first hand research ("out-with the area") to press the case for the marginalisation of Gaelic in the entry. I will leave it like that to point out the deficiences in such a stance, rather than engaging in a mindless edit war. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.61.177.95 (talk) 21:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Read it carefully, there is no English language only camp! References are needed, maybe, but we do not need 3 for one 'fact'. I have cleaned up your use of the fact tag to make it more readable. I have also reverted your changing important to predominant as whatever the census says, as a Leodhasach, who has been outside Stornoway once or twice, I do know that however much it would be good to preserve our culture, the fact remains that while the Viking invaders let us keep our language, later ones did all they could to eradicate it. It has suffered greatly and this is unfortunate, but to pretend that it is the main language would be delusional.


 * Have a look at this article which says Gaidhlig use has decreased. It shows that a percentage of people have Gaidhlig, but note well, it does not say Gaidhlig only.MRM 22:22, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Great, add it to the paragraph as a reference. My stance is not that Lewis is full of Gaelic monoglots (the last Gaelic monoglots probably disappeared in the 1950s or earlier), but that the language is spoken there habitually by the greater number of the population (except in Stornoway). No one is saying code-switching with English does not happen. But to turn round and say that because of that hardly anyone speaks Gaelic (or "pure Gaelic") is also ludicrous. I've done my best to avoid an edit war &mdash; I will only add "citation needed" form now on &mdash; and assumed good faith, but some contributors to this article are convinced that Gaelic does not exist in any appreciable or worthy ("pure Gaelic") form on the island because English code-switching also takes place, and that people from "out-with" cannot be trusted to write an entry &mdash; whilst at the same time making unfounded assertions of their own against basic Wikipedia referencing policies. 193.61.177.96 13:37, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I mean this in the nicest possible way and apologise in advance if it sounds wrong. I agree 100% with what you write in talk about Gaidhlig in Lewis, but the way you presented it in the article gave completely the wrong view. :) I probably went too far the other way. It may be wise to contact some neutral Wiki person to properly wikify that section of the article. MRM 13:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Appreciated. I have no problem with a neutral third party drawing the various concerns of this talk page into a suitable paragraph on language use in Lewis that is unbiased either way. 193.61.177.92 16:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You said "that the language is spoken there habitually by the greater number of the population (except in Stornoway)" Gaelic is very common, nobody disputes that, but what it is not is the main language of the island - which is what you seem to be suggesting. Lianachan 16:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * See my reply to Morris MacÍomhair above. :) 193.61.177.92 16:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I came into all of this as a neutral third party and was pigeon-holed as a member of "English language only camp", despite my Gaelic name, years of experience of the island and repeated assertations that Gaelic is widely spoken. I await further third parties, although not with any great anticipation. Lianachan 17:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Contributors have pigeon-holed me as someone with no experience of Lewis or Gaelic, so I can empathise with misrepresentation. My, what narrow-minded presumptions! Just because I do not feel the need to preface my contributions with over-bearing assertions of Leodhasachd or a Gaelic pseudonym, I am presumed to be a non-Gaelic speaking "outsider" &mdash; when does one "belong" and own the right to pronounce on Lewis according to your criteria, I wonder? Only after a more-Leodhasach-than-thou life history on the talk page? But to return to the issue at hand, I referred to the "English language only camp" because some contributors were attempting to promote the perception that Gaelic on Lewis is an irrelevance (whilst, apparently, the accent is more important). 193.61.177.95 20:10, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Just my €0.02 worth, but no one there seemed to suggest either that Gaelic is an irrelevance or that English is the only language. Please read the arguments carefully. The common thread is that Gaelic is very important in Lewis, but it is not the main language any more. English is the main language, but the island is very proud of its Gaelic heritage. Suggestion to everyone... take a short break before engaging in an edit war. MRM 21:48, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I've not edited it myself, but it now reads like a petty, agenda-driven shambles. I don't see the point in attempting to tidy it, as I fear it will be almost instantly untidied again.  The joys of wikipedia, where editors do not neccessarily have to know whereof they speak.  No wonder wikipedia is not viewed as a serious resource. I seriously doubt I'll have anything more to say on this, as it is utterly pointless. Lianachan 23:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Note - Please do not take an attitude of deleting chunks of the article just because others take an oposing view, that is just vandalism. If you are unable to accept changes, please try to justify your position or accept the changes others make. The current situation is ridiculous and either needs to be stopped or resolved. 86.149.139.192 17:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Suggestion - Would it be possible to set up one of those geography boxes with information like the Island name, the average weather, the main settlements, the languages spoken etc? If so, and if it is made clear that English is spoken on the island in that as well as Gaelic, then it would be prudent to have a paragraph not saying what is or is not the main language but that Gaelic is very important to the island and the island to Gaelic?86.149.139.192 17:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Map
The map here doesn't look quite right - it seems to show North Harris as part of Lewis. See Talk:Harris. Interplanet Janet 12:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Info Box
I've added an info-box. It's based on the UK places template, not the Scottish places one as the Scottish one is about to be merged into the UK one. Feel free to tidy, correct and improve. MRM 16:02, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Although I added HS2 as a second post code for Lewis, the function does not seem to work. I suggest leaving it in place meantime as the template is still under construction. MRM 11:33, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Picture request
The photos on this page look great, but's its a shame that they seem to suggest that the island is uninhabited/stuck in a time warp where the 19th century has yet to arrive. Could anyone add a few photos to show 'modern' life exists on Lewis?--JBellis 18:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Now, now, don't be rude :-) . The 19th century came in 2005. Good point though, unfortunately the only modern life pics I have to offer are of Stornoway itself, but I suspect most people would prefer those were kept in that article. MRM 11:35, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Persistent vandalism
Due to the persistent vandalism of this article by (presumably) children determined to say that someone they know of the name "Lewis" may be different to themselves, or their soul-mates, I was wondering whether it would be worthwhile seeing whether this article could be protected so that only signed-in people can edit it? Any opinions? MRM 20:54, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * As no one has objected to the above and yet another cretin has decided someone called "Lewis" needs to come out, I have added the Semi-Protection template to the article as there is no end in sight to this. Note that none of the vandals log-in. Feel free to debate. MRM 16:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi. Adding the template doesn't afford protection, unfortunately, and there's just not enough vandalism right now to justify locking it down. Trust me - there's far worse than this (think dozens per hour)! I've added it to my watchlist here and will keep watch where I can - A l is o n  ☺ 06:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 20:42, 3 May 2016 (UTC)