Talk:Isle of Man TT/Archive 1

Older 2005 & 2006 edits
I've read the mountain course is the longest used in moto racing. Confirm? Trekphiler 04:51, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


 * 37.73 miles long, almost certainly! 160.5.247.213 23:08, 13 February 2006 (UTC) pickle_uk not logged in

It's the longest now-Targa Florio was 44 miles, and Mille Miglia over 1000 miles! I'd like to see a link for the "Hollywood blockbuster" mentioned in the article-a Google search came up empty. [[User:John DiFool|John DiFool] 20:49, 28 March 2006

I've edited the page with a link to the Manx Grand Prix article I've recently created. manxbadger 22.38, 20 May 2006

the photograph below that of Joey Dunlop is not Philip McCallen but Nick Jefferies. Its the helmet that gives it away

The exact number of deaths on the TT course (Jun Maeda included) is 222. The Mountain Course is _not_ the longest circuit used in motorcycling _history_. Infact the circuit the "Targa Florio motociclistica" (i.e. the motorcycling version of the Targa Florio) was raced on from 1920 to 1929 was 108 km long, so well 48 km longer than the Isle of Man Mountain circuit. It was thought to be the longest circuit ever used in a motorcycling road race. By Vocram.

Races Template
I made a Isle of Man TT template listing all the years that races took place. It is intended for use in the race pages and I hope people will find it more elegant than the large table in this article and that it will also be used in the result pages as they are written up. ww2censor 03:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Naming?
I'm not a cycling fan, but I wonder about the use of TT in the title of this page and the annual race summary pages. Is TT really the common usage? It seems to me that the page should be at Isle of Man Tourist Trophy or Isle of Man Tourist Trophy Race. At the very least, this should be spelt out on each race summary page. –RHolton ≡ – 13:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * In fact many people only refer to it as the TT races or the TT. The title seems fine and each page quite clearly indicated what TT means, both this main page and all the race results pages done so far. ww2censor 15:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree - most people don't know what TT stands for and all branding, etc of it is TT not Tourist Trophy.Manxy3 15:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Rholton may have a valid point. As an encyclopedia article, maybe the title should be as informative as possible to neophytes who may never have heard about the IOM TT. Another option might be to create a redirect page to send links written as Isle of Man Tourist Trophy to be redirected to this page.Orsoni 14:40, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It would be ridiculous to change the title to Tourist Trophy. The Races are known worldwide, by that title, TT Races. I can't imagine anyone in the civilized world not to have heard of the TT. There are spectators from America, Canada, Japan, Australia, South Africa and Europe attend the TT every year.
 * We need to keep in mind that Wikipedia articles are supposed to be like encyclopedia articles designed to provide as many facts as possible. While it is true that most motorcyclists know what the TT stands for, there may be readers who have never heard of the Isle of Man TT. Orsoni 01:36, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It is pretty clear from the very first line of this article what TT means, but I suggest making 2 new redirect pages for the suggested titles above so that people who might know Tourist Trophy will find this article easier. However, I must virtually agree with Orsoni viewpoint that few people would not know what TT means. ww2censor 13:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Historical details
An unregistered user (from the IP address I get the impression it is just one user) keeps adding more and more detailed race information for the 1920s and 1930s to this page that seem more appropriate to the individual results pages. I have been creating new results pages for this time period, albrit slowly, and intend moving that data to those individual pages unless someone objects furiously but leaving some pertinant information on this page. The main page should give an overview of the TT and not the small details. ww2censor 17:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I have added historical detail for 1920 and 1930's from local sources. I had only intended to go as far as 1939. I can understand the point to balance race results with just a general over-view and this is what I had intended to give. However, there are no race results for long periods. I have found that some features that may have been in the race results where better in the overall summary. Also, I have found difficult in different spellings of TT riders names. I have added some TT course points where they can be crossed referenced with other Isle of Man stubs. (Agljones 15:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC))

In respect to historial details, I have looked at Formula 1 results, Moto GP results and other events such as the Dutch TT, North West 200 and the Ulster Grand Prix. I still feel that the Isle of Man TT still needs some type of historical narrative. I had still only intended intially add details upto 1939. The post war period is far more difficult including course improvements, extra races, use of the Clypse Course and the reasons for the loss of world championship status. I can understand the need for structure to applied to the details, the historical narrative and the recording of race details.

The race results have been copied directly from another website and do not give number of laps, race distance and lap records. The post war results concentrate on the events which are world championship events. This point I can understand, although I have noticed that the photograph that is used for the summary of each year of the World Motor-Cycling Chamapionship since 1949 to 2007 is that of Joey Dunlop riding a 125cc motor-cycle at the Gooseneck Corner during the 1992 Isle of Man TT Race. Also the Isle of Man TT results do not include the post-war clubman results which included winners such as Geoff Duke and Manx Grand Prix Winner Denis Parkinson. In comparison the Formula 1 event results have a summary of the race below the race results. However, I did notice that the Alberto Ascari is classified as having a "Fatal Accident" during the 1955 Monaco Grand Prix when actual he survivied a crash into Monte Carlo harbour. (Agljones 12:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC))

I have seen here that the number of victories for Agostini seems to be inconsistent between two parts of the article. In the historical section, it is mentionned "11-time winner" while in the victories list, Agostini is mentioned as having won 10 times. This place http://www.iomtt.com/history.aspx seems to indicate that Agostini has won 11 times as well.~I son know where the 10 victories come frim in the table at the bottom of the article Lefrog06 (talk) 07:47, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The Isle of Man TT database entry for Agostini (here) says he won ten times. (1966 Junior TT, 1968 Senior and Junior TTs, 1969 Senior and Junior TTs, 1970 Senior and Junior TTs, 1971 Senior TT, 1972 Senior and Junior TTs). Readro (talk) 09:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Pre 1922 Lightweight 250 c.c. Junior at IOM
http://www.iomtt.com/HistoryOfTheTT/TheHistoryoftheTTRaces/TheMountainCircuit.aspx

On the site page linked to above, "An extra Race was effectively introduced on the first Race day of 1922, Tuesday 30th. May, by splitting the 250 c.c. machines away from, but run simultaneously with the 350 c.c.'s"

Appearing to contradict this, and on the same page, for the earlier 1920 race, "The Lightweight 250 c.c. Junior was a walk over for the Levis stable with the first three spots filled by their machines."

For the 1921 race, "Three different machines featured in the top three positions at the end of the 250 c.c. Race with Doug Prentice on a New Imperial a convincing victor ahead of G.S. Davison's Levis and third place man W.G. Harrison on board a Velocette."

New Imperial seems to have celebrated this 1921 win at the time, so was there an unofficial tabulation of 250 results that became official in 1922? This iomtt page doesn't clarify.

Was this because the "Lightweight 250 c.c. Junior" was not a Tourist Trophy race prior to 1922, but a non-TT IOM race? Can anyone confirm this or otherwise? Seasalt 11:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The first 250cc Lightweight Race was first run in 1922. The 1920 and 1921 Junior Races had a separate 250 cc class but appeared to run concurrently.  In 1920 R.O Clarke was fourth in the Junior TT Race but, finished in first place in the 250cc class.  For 1921 Doug Prentice was 10th in the Junior TT Race, but finished first in the 250cc lightweight class. (Agljones 12:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC))


 * The Isle of Man Examiner dated 19th June 1920 quotes that Levis won the first 3 places in the Lightweight class of the 1920 Junior Race. The article also states that no prize was awarded for the Lightweight Class as the finishers times where all 30 minutes slower than the winners time. The article does not state if it refers to prize money or some other finishers award.  However, R.O Clark riding for Levis finished in 4th place overall and was within the 30 minute limit for a "prize" despite a puncture at the Windy Corner on the last-lap and then completed the 1920 Junior Race on a wheel-rim. (Agljones 10:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC))
 * So, I suggest that either one of you, Agljones, or Seasalt, write this up these details in the 1920 Isle of Man TT page and not on the main page. As mentioned above the historical write up is becoming rather too detailed for an overview and I intend to condense both the 1920s and 1930s and merge the details onto the individual annual results pages as soon as I can get the time to do it. ww2censor 14:18, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with ww2censor on this point. As it stands, the race details are likely to bog a reader down in minutae when most readers are probably just seeking an overview. The main article should contain any major technology changes or significant changes to the venue.Orsoni 14:48, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I was only posting here to validate information on another page I edit where the information was challenged. I have not previously edited the pages mentioned, and am not responsible for any excess or incorrect content there, nor am I interested in "adopting" them at this time.Seasalt 12:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

All information in Isle of Man TT Twenties and Thirties, from 1922 to 1935 is now incorporated in individual year pages.Seasalt 14:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't follow what you mean by individual pages. It looks like the 1920s & 1930s sections are still in the article.Orsoni 12:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * All the information 1922 to 1935, on Isle of Man TT is now duplicated into each of the individual year isle of man tt race pages, and is probably to some extent redundant here. I think ww2censor wanted to reduce the amount of info on the Isle of Man TT page. Seasalt 13:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * ok, I understand now. I have to agree with ww2censor in that this article should serve as an introduction, covering the what, where and why of the TT while the links to the yearly race reports can cover the actual racing events.Orsoni 15:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe one of us, not me right now, could summarise the general trends in the IOMTT during the 1920s and 1930s into a few paragraphs from what is there and what happened to speeds, which manufacturers dominated, or often participated, etc., and then remove the rest. ww2censor 19:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Format of race
Do riders race individually race against the clock, or is it a mass start race? This basic infomation doesn't seem to be in the article. LDHan 17:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The Isle of Man TT races are held in a time-trial format and this is mentioned in the results for the 1907 Isle of Man TT Races in the second paragraph. There has been exceptions to this, including the first 1924 Ultra-Lightweight TT Race, Isle of Man TT Races on the Clypse Course and some post-war Clubman TT races. The 2007 Isle of Man TT Races were run in the same time-trial format "against the clock." For example, the winner of the 2007 Supersport race crossed the finishing line in "3rd place." The official TT Race results reflect the time-trial format and only publish race-time and average race speed which is part of the history of the TT Races. {Agljones 11:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)}

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Post War TT Racing 1947-1959
The purpose of this artice and also Isle of Man TT racing in the 1920's and 1930's is to highlight change in a)changes to the Snaefell Mountain Course, b) notable racing events at the Isle of Man TT Races and c) technological change to racing motor-cycles. Prior to the period 1947-1959, racing motor-cycles were designed to compete at the Isle of Man TT Races.  In the post-war period, although the Isle of Man TT Races were seen as a showcase by motor-cycle manufacturers this emphasis is not so well defined.

The purpose of the section of the article is not highlight the use of stream-lining of motor-cycles and perhaps this section may be better placed in another section about racing motor-cycles. Nevertheless, I am aware that a previous article on racing proto-types in another article, although this article does not exsist in its original form. Also, the section about Moto Guzzi is again a general article about racing proto-types in the 1950's. Furthermore, in September 1957 there was an unilateral agreement by the Italian motor-cycle manufacturers to withdraw from racing on financial grounds and an anti-racing sentiment in Italy after a recent fatal crash in the Mille Mila. This withdrawal included Moto Guzzi, Gilera and FB Mondial and was was due to the excessive cost of racing and falling sales of motor-cycles due to the demand in the new micro-cars and the Italian marques had 'demonstrated the undeniable technical excellence of their products and that recently there had been no foreign opposition.' ref (Italian Racing Motor-Cycles by Mick Walker pp. 198 Redline Books Ltd 1999 ISBN 09531311 14)

Adverse weather conditions are not confined to the Isle of Man. During the winter of 1958 the FIM banned streamling on racing proto-types due to concerns over the aerodynamic stability and a number of recent racing accidents including the death of Roberto Colombo at the Belgium Grand Prix. The 'dustbin' fairing was replaced by the small 'dolphin' fairing. Moto Guzzi also found that the 'dolphin' fairing increased the stability of their racing motor-cycles. Agljones (talk) 13:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Deaths
I like the race but it seems like the carnage should be mentioned. This isn't a good enough source http://www.linksheaven.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6330 but in '06 it put the toll at 222, 2.1 fatalities per year, and a racer and two spectators died last year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.88.111 (talk) 07:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I would have to agree with you. It is lightly touched upon when the event lost its world championship status in 1976.Orsoni (talk) 13:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It was the Wikipedia consensus that any detail would be contained within each racing report for each year and the incident that is referred to is found within the report for the 2007 Isle of Man TT Races and note in particular the section for Further Events for this year. The total number of fatalities to competitors has now been updated to (225) although the figure may be actually (224). The information in respect to the number of fatalities to competitors can be found within a seperate section for the Snaefell Mountain Course.   Although this information can be found on the internet it has taken 6 months to confirm about 1/3 of the list and I have found this very time consuming as I have found a number of variations in the spelling of competitors names, dates of death and places of accidents.  I woulder like to continue the expansion of the history of the TT from the 1960's.  However, another Wikipedia contributor has placed a section about Motor Guzzi racing motor-cycles which is not suitable for this section (see pervious note).  I have tried to create an article for racing proto-type motor-cycles which may be more suitable article for some of this information about stream-lined fairings and Italian racing motor-cycles but it has again been deleted.  (Agljones (talk) 13:34, 7 September 2008 (UTC))
 * Actually I think you mean the fatalities are in the List of Snaefell Mountain Course fatal accidents. ww2censor (talk) 15:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * As the future of the TT continues to be brought into question by the mass media every time a fatality occurs, I see no reason why this controversial aspect of the event cannot be briefly touched upon with a single paragraph. The safety controversy transcends race results. To ignore the safety controversy would lessen the encyclopedic value of the article and make it seem more of a fan-based magazine article. To cover all points of view, if you will. For the record, I'm a big fan of the event.Orsoni (talk) 05:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The final paragraph of the article Isle of Man TT races briefly mention the saftey issues and fatalities to competitors that would be required for the encyclopedic value of the article. I have not been quite able to find an equivalent paragraph or article on Wikipedia in respect to other races or circuits and often is not mentioned.  The article has some value as it mentions the one main safety change associated with the Isle of Man TT with the closing of roads for practice after the death of Archie Birkin.  The compuslory use of crash helmets for the 1914 Isle of Man TT Races was the result of fatalities as was the first use of a flag to signify the end of race was the result of the death of Fred Walker.  Also, the changes to the course during the winter of 1953/54 as the result of the fatalities 1951/53 and to facilitate the use of the new Clypse Course are mentioned in the article for the Snaefell Mountain Course.  Also the recent changes to Windy Corner, Brandish Corner, Governor's Bridge and the part of the Mountain Course from the 11th Milestone to the 13th Milestone have been undertaken as safety measures for everyday road traffic use and for racing. I would have to agree that perhaps that some of the points could be brought together in a small article or paragraph.  As I mentioned previously, it was the Wikipedia consensus that any detail would be contained within each racing report for each year.  After researching the List of Snaefell Mountain Course fatal accidents from newspaper sources it is not difficult to conclude that there has been more fatalities since 1946 than pre-war.  During the 1930's there was only 3 events which made-up the race programme and competitors started at 30 second intervals and fields averaged about 35 competitors.  Nevertheless, there has been a fundamental shift in the nature of the Isle of Man TT Races since the inter-war period.  In particular, there has been an expansion in the number of races and the number of competitors involved since 1947 and the Isle of Man TT races becoming part of the new world championship in 1949.  There has been a notable increase in fatalities to competitors during the Isle of Man TT Races and Manx Grand Prix since 1946 and in particular during morning practice, competitiors of the Clubman TT Races and also in competitors that are under 25 years and over 45 years.  The age factor and inexperience is not something that is a particular to racing on the Snaefell Mountain Course and is to be found at other circuits and different branches of motor-sport.  There have been other fatalities due to mechanical failure, racing collisions and being blinded by the sun.(Agljones (talk) 10:27, 8 September 2008 (UTC))
 * Why not precis the above with the scant information in the article and add it as a separate section? The current (main) paragraph is buried in the "Description" section so it is not easily noticed unless one reads the entire article. ww2censor (talk) 15:08, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I created the Safety section from the existing information and linked to List of Snaefell Mountain Course fatal accidents using template:more. Brianhe (talk) 06:19, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * To complete the encyclopaedic value of the article rather than a general discussion of safety issues, the Safety section of article could be described as having disputed neutrality. What needs to be included into the end of the overall article is the Isle of Man TT Races being promoted as a racing festival from the late 1980's onwards. An informal part of the Isle of Man TT Races or Festival has been Mad Sunday which is mentioned in the Safety section.  In terms of an the encyclopedic value of the safety section in the respect of the Isle of Man TT Races, a general trend from the late 1950's has been that the number of injuries and fatalities due to road traffic accidents on the public roads during the two weeks of the Isle of Man TT Races has been at times considerablely much higher than fatalities due to racing. In recent years there has been a fall in the number of racing fatalities on the Snaefell Mountain Course including the Manx Grand Prix Races(the 2006 Manx Grand Prix was an exception to this trend).  This is due to improved safety including the adoption of air-fencing blocks on corners, improvements to the road surface, more training to race marshals and the dropping from the schedule of the morning practice sessions (6am-7:30am). In the same period there has also been a fall in road traffic accidents during the Isle of Man TT Festival, although the number of RTA fatalities still exceeds that of fatalities due to racing.  This again due to increased promotion of road safety issues, the organisation of alternative events in particular on Mad Sunday and the use of a one-way system on the A18 Mountain Road between Ramsey Hairpin and Creg-ny-Baa.  A link to the list  List of Snaefell Mountain Course fatal accidents already exists in the section in the Snaefell Mountain Course and comment on racing safety issues applies equally to the Manx Grand Prix.  Also, the List of Snaefell Mountain Course fatal accidents was created to document these incidents rather than provided an encyclopaedic explanation.  As the Isle of Man TT Races article has increased in length, perhaps it now better to create, for example, sub-articles such TT Racing 1960-1969 or Isle of Man TT Festival 1989 onwards etc....  Finally in respect to the lap by Tony Pond this may be better included in the lap record section of the Snaefell Mountain Course as it is considered to be an official lap record. (Agljones (talk) 11:00, 20 February 2009 (UTC))

Following figures are for non-racing road traffic accident (RTA) for the Isle of Man TT Festival;-

Isle of Man TT Festival RTA Statistics

Agljones (talk) 10:45, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Moto Guzzi dust bin fairing edit
I have to agree with Agljones, that the recent edit concerning Moto Guzzis and dust bin fairings isn't highly relevant in an article about the TT. It would be more appropriate in an article concerning motorcycle Grand Prix technology.Orsoni (talk) 05:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Requested move
leave as TT Anthony Appleyard (talk) 10:53, 13 May 2009 (UTC) The full name is Isle of Man Tourist Trophy, and an encyclopaedic page should be titled without acronyms even if the race is more commonly referred to as TT, as per WP:NC. I don't think TT is "commonly thought of as [a] word". --Feyrauth (talk) 10:37 am, Today (UTC−4)
 * This was already discussed above more than 2 years ago. Normally we use WP:COMMONNAME which Isle of Man Tourist Trophy is not and imho tops any spelled out abbreviation. ww2censor (talk) 15:26, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose - TT is by far the usual usage, and as per WP:COMMONNAME this page should stay exactly where it is. - fchd (talk) 16:10, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Propose: Retain as the Isle of Man TT is now seen as a name in own-right WP:COMMONNAME rather than just an abbreviation. This can be seen by the Offical Race Programmes over the recent years describe the event as the "Isle of Man TT Races." It would also cause a Wiki-conflict with the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy, a series of automobile races held on the Isle of Man between 1905 and 1922, now known as the RAC Tourist Trophy.  In 2008 there was a number of corrections initiated by one contributor to change Snaefell Mountain Course to "TT Course" despite the Manx Grand Prix and other events use the same Snaefell Mountain Course.  The search-engine Google records 432,000 hits for Isle of Man TT Races compared to 42,500 hits for Isle of Man Tourist Trophy.  The change may also cause difficult in other languages as the Isle of Man TT Races is an international event. Perhaps this is another example of unnecessary WP:CORRECTNESS Agljones (talk) 18:36, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Looks like someone has already jumped the gun and done the move, without waiting for a consensus either way. - fchd (talk) 20:58, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It is nonsensical, meaningless and time consuming to change articles such as Lightweight TT, Ultra-Lightweight TT, Sidecar TT, Junior TT and Senior TT to take into account this policy. The Isle of Man TT Races articles and race reports are written in British-English which describe the event as the Isle of Man TT Races and perhaps this emphasis should be taken into account before initiating any changes.  The official regulations for 2009 event describe the event as the TT Races and then a further sub-title as the International Tourist Trophy Races(sic) to emphasis the event as an international event open to competitors with international racing licences.  The 2009 regulation refers to the event as the Isle of Man TT Races or TT Races throughout the regulations. Perhaps the Manx Grand Prix should be renamed the Isle of Man Grand Prix and the Audi TT renamed the Audi Tourist Trophy. Agljones (talk) 21:53, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Admin EdwinHJ has improperly moved the page using his admin powers and preempting the discussion that has not even be open for 24-hours; that is wrong and I have told him so. Any controversial moves are supposed to be allowed to go through the process fully. This move, beside being wrong, was improperly done. TT is the term used everywhere while Tourist Trophy is seldom used. ww2censor (talk) 23:37, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

The naming of the Isle of Man TT Races correctly falls within the Wiki policy of WP:NC as it states, avoid abbreviations "....unless the term you are naming is almost exclusively known only by its abbreviation." This is the case with the Isle of Man TT Races as it is known as the TT Races rather than the Tourist Trophy which may be confused with the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy automobile races. The Official Isle of Man TT Programme 2008 refers almost exclusively to the event as the Isle of Man TT Races or the TT Races. The local Isle of Man newspapers exclusively refer to the event as the TT Races and this can be shown with recent articles;-


 * "Rutter heads TT entry" ;- Manx Independent p45 dated 3rd April 2009
 * "Go Home an hour earlier for TT practices" ;- Isle of Man Examiner p1 dated 14th April 2009
 * "Minister's practice U-turn forces TT stars out" ;- Isle of Man Examiner p1 dated 21st April 2009
 * "TT set for its biggest television audience" ;- Isle of Man Courier p1 dated 23rd April 2009
 * "Bike legend Rossi to ride TT course" ;- Manx Independent p1 dated 1st May 2009

The Indianapolis 500-Mile Race is almost exclusively known as the Indy 500, although not an abbreviation rather an acceptable disambiguation. The round of the FIM Motorcycle Grand Prix World Championship held in Holland is known almost exclusively as the Dutch TT. As mentioned previously the Audi TT is named after the Isle of Man TT Races. It may be too early in the process to seek Informal mediation. Agljones (talk) 10:34, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - Retain as TT per WP:UCN "Determine the most common name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject" - This is clearly TT (as the races are known worldwide by that title) shown here, here, here and here.   Badgernet    ₪    10:42, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Wikipedia:Requested moves

 * Propose: Retain as TT is now seen as a name in own-right rather than just an abbreviation. This can be seen by the Offical Race Programmes over the recent years describe the event as the "Isle of Man TT Races." It would also cause a Wiki-conflict with the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy, a series of automobile races held on the Isle of Man between 1905 and 1922, now known as the RAC Tourist Trophy.  In 2008 there was a number of corrections initiated by one contributor to change Snaefell Mountain Course to "TT Course" despite the Manx Grand Prix and other events use the same Snaefell Mountain Course.  The search-engine Google records 432,000 hits for Isle of Man TT Races compared to 42,500 hits for Isle of Man Tourist Trophy. The change may also cause difficult in other languages as the Isle of Man TT Races is an international event. Furthermore, it is nonsensical, meaningless and time consuming to change articles such as Lightweight TT, Ultra-Lightweight TT, Sidecar TT, Junior TT and Senior TT to take into account this policy.  The official regulations for 2009 event describe the event as the TT Races and then a further sub-title as the International Tourist Trophy Races(sic) to emphasis the event as an international event open to competitors with international racing licences.  The 2009 regulation refers to the event as the Isle of Man TT Races or TT Races throughout the regulations.   Agljones (talk) 17:50, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * TT is the WP:COMMONNAME virtually everywhere. ww2censor (talk) 23:31, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Retain as Isle of Man TT per WP:UCN "Determine the most common name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject" - This is clearly TT (as the races are known worldwide by that title) shown here, here, here and here.   Badgernet    ₪    10:45, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Reverted preemptive move
Admin EdwinHJ has reverted his preemptive move of this page stating he did not realise it would be a controversial move. ww2censor (talk) 14:41, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Name?
Why is it called a tourist trophy? --AW (talk) 02:31, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The event was devised for road-legal touring motor-cycles with exhaust silencers, saddles, pedals and mud-guards rather than purpose built racing prototypes. The emphasis at the time for racing was on touring or tourist automobiles or motor-cycles. As with racing automobiles, the early history or motor-cycle racing was developed much as a gentleman's sport and a trophy rather than a Cup was seen as more appropriate. The touring or tourist trophy was donated by the Marquis de Mouzilly St. Mars to be presented to the winner of the 1907 Isle of Man TT race. It featured a stylised version of Olympic God Hermes by Giovanni Da Bologna as a silver figurine astride a winged wheel. The trophy was similar in design to the 18 carat gold Montague Trophy presented to John Napier (Arrol-Johnston) as the inaugural winner of the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy automobile race in 1905 now known as the RAC Tourist Trophy. Agljones (talk) 20:22, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Not to open a can of worms, but this question highlights why I believe the article title should be spelled out in full. We should be writing these articles with the newcomer in mind, rather than for the seasoned race fan. Many neophytes have no idea what the initials TT stand for. I know this has been hashed out in detail, and I have no intention of arguing the point. I'm just stating my opinion, that we should edit with the intention of edifying beginners who have absolutely no knowledge of the subject.

I realize Agljones has put a lot of good work into this article, but I think it delves a little too much into race results, which would normally be in the yearly race report articles. Particular victories by noteworthy machines or riders (i.e. first Italian victory), or course layout changes could be listed, otherwise, results should be listed in the race report pages. Information overload can tend to make a reader lost in a sea of data. Just a bit of constructive criticism on my part, and definitely not meant to be taken negatively in view of all the hard work that has gone into this article.Orsoni (talk) 07:28, 6 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I have been considering re-writing parts of the Isle of Man TT article for sometime. The individual decades were written to incorporate changes to the course, important race milestones and linking the Isle of Man TT Races to changes in the motor-cycle industry and race technology, providing encyclopedic value.  The article from 1960 onwards is very fragmented and suffers from many additions from individual editors and misleading information(ie the Moto Guzzi fairing edit).  I have written a summary for the Isle of Man TT Races for the period 1960-1969.  As the article was too long in length for a summary the article was not added to the main Isle of Man TT Races and currently remains unfinished.  I did propose that sub-articles 1960-1969 and 1970-1979 be created.  As for the race reports for individual year I am currently finishing the report for the 2009 Isle of Man TT Races.  For example, the race report for the 2008 event is more than 4,500 words long which shows the comparative length of a race report to the individual decades in the main article. Also, to update the practice times each day during TT practice week is about 40-50 minutes for each category. The 2009 event included the Supersport and Sidecar classes and a more extensive TT practice summary that was written during TT practice week.  There is now more information available to write race reports for individual years (ie 1959-1977) compared to 3 years ago.  The race result require completing for the years 1973-1994, 1996-1999 and 2002-2004.  I have been correcting the world championship points scoring system for the results 1969-1972 and also making extensive corrections and additions to the list of racing fatalities.  There is also the Isle of Man TT Races other racing trophy winners to be added to the main article and then there is the Manx Grand Prix, Southern 100 Races, Ulster Grand Prix and North West 200 race results......... There also needs to be a distinction between the Isle of Man TT race and the early Gordon Bennett and Isle of Man Tourist Trophy automobile races held in the Isle of Man and the current RAC Tourist Trophy race.Agljones (talk) 12:01, 7 March 2010 (UTC)


 * There are some magazines in the United States will refer to the event as the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy. Is there a consensus for a rewrite of the article in perhaps the style of something like the Tour de France or other sporting events????  The resulting article may be much longer than the current article ! Agljones (talk) 22:26, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Now that would be a great idea. The TT like the tour is more than a race, it is history and culture and both are as important as the racing it's self. Bjmullan (talk) 22:32, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The tour de France article looks good, although I'm not sure how much the style differs from the TT article. My main critique of this article is its length. This could be shortened by leaving out some of the results. for instance-

The 1925 Senior TT Race was sensationally won by Howard Davis while competing against the works teams with a motor-cycle of his own manufacture a HRD Motorcyclesat an average speed of 66.13 mph.

Despite problems with the sidecar class, the winner of the 1960 Sidecar TT race was Helmut Fath riding a BMW outfit at an average speed of 84.40 mph.

It seems to me that the notability of these events wouldn't warrant their inclusion in the main article, whereas they would be suitable for the yearly race results articles. Results such as Wal L. Handley becoming the first rider to win all three major TT classes, would be suitable for the main article.Orsoni (talk) 07:57, 20 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I have been rewriting the main TT article and it is based on the style of the main Tour de France article. It also incorporates some of the information from the Manx Grand Prix article.  The Isle of Man TT is very much a different type of sporting event  from the Tour de France and the rewrite that I have been working on includes information about practice sessions, qualification procedures and race schedules which are unique to the event.  I have also been writing summary of the race classes which will provided a different emphasis from the current article along with discontinued classes, crossing points, restricted areas  and the Roads Open vehicles.  The current sections about the individual race history will disappear.  However, the more important information  may be contained in the Statistics Section and a racing time-line (see Tour de France article) to be determined.  Overall the rewrite will be in a different style from the current article.  Agljones (talk) 20:33, 20 March 2010 (UTC)


 * If you are going to remove the race history, then I suggest that, as we previously mentioned above, that race history information could be placed into the individual race report pages. Are you working on this in a sandbox page? If so when it is basically ready let's have a look. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 02:47, 21 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I was going to remove the race history that gave a summary of the decades, for instance the 1920's, TT Racing in the 1930's and Post War TT Racing 1947-1959. This information will be reused in the rewrite or transferred to the individual year as appropriate.  Some of the information will be incorporated into a better description of the racing classes in the main TT article. As I mentioned previously that the description of the 1960's suffered from frequent rewrites and the addition of erroneous information which made the main article unbalanced.  An attempt by myself to rewrite the 1960's decade produced an over-long section which was inappropriate and remains currently unused. It also raised the issue of separate motorcycle Grand Prix technology article or racing motorcycle prototypes.  However, it is a case of achieving the right balance through a historical narrative, encyclopaedic value and appropriate technical detail. I had been considering pasting some of the information in respect to the race classes in the Talk section, although I am still working on information for the TT Formula 1/Superbike and Senior TT classes.  I also wished to expand the Culture section of the Isle of Man TT Races to provided a much more balanced article and perhaps more in-line with the Tour de France article.  It is overall a difficult proposition to rewrite the Isle of Man TT article to produce something closer to the Tour de France or Manx Grand Prix articles and some of the photographs may have to change too. Agljones (talk) 10:15, 21 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. I am sure you will do a good job. ww2censor (talk) 14:49, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Prestigious motor-cycle race
"and was for many years the most prestigious motor-cycle race in the world." is a point of view and needs a source as it also implies that it no longer is. --PBS (talk) 23:24, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

James H. Simpson - Winner 1934 Lightweight TT Race
The winner of the 1934 Lightweight Race, James H. Simpson the name is often spelt Jimmie Simpson and also Jimmy Simpson. Written newspaper sources of the Isle of Man TT Races in the 1930's often show both spellings of the name. The same written sources also included the different spellings of Jimmie Guthrie and Jimmy Guthrie. Agljones (talk) 22:28, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * On the official Isle of Man site the trophy that is named after James Simpson is called The Jimmy Simpson Trophy and the entry in the results database is also Jimmy. For this reason I reverted an edit earlier today from Jimmie back to Jimmy. You are probably right that his name was spelt using both forms but I think if the trophy is called Jimmy it should stay that way. Bjmullan (talk) 22:39, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The 2010 International Isle of Man TT Races Regulations (page 24) refers to the The Jimmy Simpson Trophy in the spelling as you suggest.  Also, both variations are to be found on the internet and on Wikipedia !  I am not sure what the official inscription on the trophy as it is not shown in public very often like the other trophy's.  A biography in a Classic Racer Magazine printed in 1997 also refers to Jimmy Simpson.  I have further biographic information in respect to James H. Simpson to complete an entry for Wikipedia, although I am unceratin about his date of death which was about 1982? The variation Jimmie Simpson is more common in written sources in the 1930's and the official results always refer to J.H.Simpson Agljones (talk) 09:17, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

No TT Zero Results?
Caferace (talk) 01:46, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

See 2010 Isle of Man TT results. Agljones (talk) 06:47, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Outline of motorcycles and motorcycling
 This article is featured on the Outline of motorcycles and motorcycling  - please help to improve it. Thruxton (talk) 10:58, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

motor-cycle
This is the only article on wikipedia with hyphens everywhere dividing the word motorcycle brutally in half. It seems unjustified and cruel. We should end this practice before someone complains to the RSPCW. 213.123.192.77 (talk) 17:09, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

This article is written in British English, and some terms used in it are different or absent from American English and other dialects of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. Agljones (talk) 22:14, 31 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, 'motorcycle' (without the hyphen) is also the predominant usage in modern British English, so that is not the issue here. As far as I can tell the use of 'Motor-cycle' in the article occurs only where it refers is to an historic event or publication, and probably reflects contemporary (pre-1930s) usage. As proper nouns in these cases they should not be changed. The rest of the article should, and does, use 'motorcycle'.  AJ Cham  20:16, 4 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The article has suffered from multiple edits in different styles and in the process of being completely rewritten. The new article will be written in British-English including the use of the expression 'motor-cycle' rather than adopt the drift to Wiki-Americanization of many common British grammar practices. Agljones (talk) 20:58, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Good job
The new rewrite seems much more concise yet thorough. A job well done. Perhaps you should nominate the article for a Good article nomination?Orsoni (talk) 22:59, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

175mph average speed...really?
In the 'Fastest Lap Awards' section, most of the average speeds are around 130mph, except for this one:

TT Superbike 	John Williams Trophy 	John McGuinness 	Honda 1000 cc 	2012 	175.483 mph (282.413 km/h) 	17:20.97

There is something clearly wrong here; the lap time is around 6 secs slower than the fastest, yet the average speed of over 175mph does not add up. Is this speed his top speed at one section of the track? Was it a different track? There is no explanation. 86.165.83.183 (talk) 22:47, 25 August 2012 (UTC)