Talk:Ismail Kemal

Untitled
It seemed to me like it was public domain (no copyright notice). I guess I'll added an abreviated version (entirely my own).

I have emailed the website operators asking about public domain status. Note that the lack of a copyright notice does not imply the lack of copyright. That's true under Albanian law even more than it's true under US law. -- Tim Starling 07:04 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Result: not licensable under GFDL.

The owner of this text does not wish to relinquish his commercial interest in it. Although he will allow non-profit use, we cannot place such a restriction once we license it under GFDL. The correspondence between us follows. -- Tim Starling 00:55 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

 Is the text on www.albanianculturalheritage.com public domain? A portion of the website text has been posted to the free encyclopedia "wikipedia.org", but unless its status can be confirmed, we will have to remove it. Specifically,

http://www.albanianculturalheritage.com/historyAlbania19131939.htm

was briefly available at

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_Qemali

before it was removed pending investigation.

Yours sincerely, Tim Starling. 

 Dear Tim

thanks for your query www.albanianculturalheritage.com and the GUide in Hard Copy @Albania a Patrimony of European Values are property of SEDA NGO *see www.seda.org.al and more exactly there are property of Mr. Genc Myftiu who is the chairman of SEDA

1.in any case you should mention the origin and the authors *SEDA* of the info you place somewhere in internet

2. in case of profit from this site you should declare it and ask Mr. Genc Myftiu for profit sharing

all the best

REgards

Genc Myftiu www.seda.org.al 

Detail on the religion of this Albanian hero
I modified this to correctly reflect that Mssr. Qemali was "Bektashi Islam" or "Sufi Islam." He was not Sunni. Bektashi Islam, per se, I did not find in English Wikipedia, so I linked it to the Order of Bektashi, a reasonable choice, I hope! KSRolph (talk) 22:56, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Ismail Qemali. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090226154906/http://www.bankofalbania.org/web/Albanian_banknotes_issue_from_Bank_of_Albania_202_2.php to http://www.bankofalbania.org/web/Albanian_banknotes_issue_from_Bank_of_Albania_202_2.php

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 12:49, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Ismail Qemali
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Ismail Qemali's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Zurcher202": From Ottoman countercoup of 1909:  From Ahmed Niyazi Bey:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 10:28, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Vital dates
Most other WPs say he was born on 16 January and died on 24 January. English WP alone has 24 January - 26 January. Why? --  Jack of Oz   [pleasantries]  00:20, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Text title alignment
Just noting that regardless of which spelling is chosen, per MoS the text and title should align. 74.73.224.126 (talk) 16:51, 8 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Then revert your edit and move it back to "Ismail Qemali". Stop citing wikipedia policies since we both know you didn't follow them when you move the page to "Ismail Kemal" even though you knew this was a controversial edit and it would have needed a discussion in the talk page. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 17:42, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * So you know, unregistered users can not move pages. I don't know the full history here, but you clearly have some of your facts confused. Anyway, if you think that a move would be uncontroversial, go to WP:RM/TR and file a request, otherwise follow the procedure outlined at WP:RM. If any of that confuses you, ask for help at the WP:TEAHOUSE. But whatever you do, please stop blindly reverting, and try to get this one right, thank you. 74.73.224.126 (talk) 18:01, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Look, the very fact that you're still using an IP address to edit Wikipedia, and yet keep citing its policies, says it all about you. So, stop, I’m not wasting my time responding to you again. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 19:39, 8 July 2023 (UTC)
 * please review WP:CIVIL. If you persist in editing this page contrary to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, I will have no choice but to request a sysop block you from editing. Civility issues aside, a failure to engage in talk page discussion will not reflect well on you in the long-term, thanks for your understanding. 74.73.224.126 (talk) 20:15, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 5 July 2024

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure)  NightWolf1223  &lt; Howl at me &bull; My hunts &gt; 17:16, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Ismail Qemali → Ismail Kemal – I was researching on this topic and actually discovered that this figure's real name was Ismail Kemal, not Qemal or Qemali as several authors have inaccurately spelled it. The page was also moved to Ismail Kemal by CanadianFolks, though without any discussion so I thought I could request one. As they highlight, Ismail used the spelling "Kemal" in his signature and also in his English memoirs, The Memoirs of Ismail Kemal Bey. The Albanian source Amfora says. This confirms that his name's actual spelling was Kemal, not Qemali which was promoted by Zog I as part of his Albanian nationalist campaigns. As much as I would wish Ismail's surname to be Qemali, we have to face the facts so I would request it to be changed to Kemal. As a matter of fact, the sources on this article itself use "Kemal" rather than "Qemali" such as: These sources count for more than half of the article and I have only listed the sources on this article, I could go on listing several others though I think this is sufficient enough for now. Hoping for a quick move. Dashnor Kemalit   (talk)  09:42, 5 July 2024 (UTC) <--- blocked sock of User:SheryOfficial The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Skendi, The Albanian National Awakening (1967)
 * Kondis, Greece and Albania, 1908–1914 (1976)
 * Treadway, The Falcon and Eagle: Montenegro and Austria-Hungary, 1908–1914 (1983)
 * Hanioğlu, Preparation for a Revolution: The Young Turks, 1902-1908 (2001)
 * Blumi, Ottoman Refugees, 1878-1939: Migration in a Post-Imperial World (2013)
 * Support per nom. Kürkisk (talk) 22:02, 7 July 2024 (UTC) <--- blocked sock of User:SheryOfficial

Requested move 14 July 2024
Ismail Kemal → Ismail Qemali – Ismail Qemali is the native name how it is spelled into the native language, the conspiracies as per why the name was changed falls into Original Research. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 14:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose per the above discussion. Kemal is the correct spelling, used by Ismail Kemal himself in his memoirs and signature. Kemal is also used in nearly every source of this article. This does not even need a discussion.  Dashnor Kemalit    (talk)  17:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC) <--- blocked sock of User:SheryOfficial
 * Strong Support:Ismail Kemal was used before the standartisation and officialisation of the Albanian writing system mainly on the ottoman documents. Going by this logic should we also move the article of King Arthur into Artorius? Or the name Charlemagne into KAROLVS IMP AVG according to the signature? RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 19:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * First of all, per WP:RMCOMMENT, the nominator cannot add a separate line of support: ". Secondly, your claim is baseless that "Ismail Kemal was used before the standartisation and officialisation of the Albanian writing system mainly on the ottoman documents". Kemal did not just use the spelling in his signatures but also in his only work, The Memoirs of Ismail Kemal Bey. The spelling "Qemali" was never ever used by Kemal nor any of the early sources, only promoted by later governments for political purposes. And King Arthur's comparision is not suitable here as he is an ancient figure and modern Latin was not used back then. As highlighted in the previous discussion, Kemal is definately WP:COMMONNAME for this figure.  Dashnor Kemalit    (talk)  09:33, 15 July 2024 (UTC) <--- blocked sock of User:SheryOfficial


 * Note: WikiProject Biography, WikiProject Albania, WikiProject Former countries, WikiProject Biography/Politics and government, and WikiProject Ottoman Empire have been notified of this discussion.  98𝚃𝙸𝙶𝙴𝚁𝙸𝚄𝚂  •  [𝚃𝙰𝙻𝙺]   22:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Weak Oppose ngrams gives Kemal a slight lead, a hasty google survey shows sources are split fairly evenly. Native names are only to be used if they are more common per WP:UE, although I sympathise with the nom Kowal2701 (talk) 11:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Support, Ismail Qemali is the most widespread spelling of the name today. Even Fischer and Schmitt in the most recent academic book about the history of Albania, A Concise History of Albania, use the spelling Ismail Qemali. I don't know how the previous request move was closed so quickly, with the vote of only one account, User:Kürkisk, which appears to have been created with this sole scope, as appears to be the nominator of that request, User:DashnorKemalit. The article should be restored to its previous name. – Βατο (talk) 09:35, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The user just admitted [] to have been the editor behind Kürkisk also so basically the move was proposed by just a single sock editor and approved by his other sock account. Can an admin proceed with the move? RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 22:16, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:38, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:NC. Ismail Qemali is the most common name in reliable sources.
 * Ismail Qemali: 2650 results (2000-2024)
 * Ismail Kemal: 950 results (2000-2024)
 * Support per the arguments made above. Ismail Qemali is the most common name in modern reliable literature and reflects the native Albanian spelling and pronunciation of this historical figure's name. Lezhjani1444 (talk) 18:00, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Support per arguments above. The guy had many roles in his life and he might have signed himself off in many languages but the main reason he is famous and people know him is the declaration of independence of Albania. He is mentioned as "Ismail Qemali" in literature as a result, as can be seen by sources provided above. Therefore, his Turkish, French, British, and whatever else aliases are irrelevant. I am shocked that the article was moved so quickly with only one support and zero arguments, this should not happen on Wikipedia for established figures. Uniacademic (talk) 22:23, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you are on about? The "main reason he is famous and people know him is the declaration of independence of Albania." True, maybe if you researched a bit more, you would find out he signed himself in the Albanian language as Ismail Kemal in the Albanian Declaration of Independence. He used "Kemal" in his memoirs as well and never ever used "Qemali" which is as I highlighted, was introduced years after his death by the Albanian monarchy of Zog I.  Dashnor Kemalit    (talk)  03:25, 17 July 2024 (UTC) <--- blocked sock of User:SheryOfficial
 * Before the officialisation of the Albanian alphabet that's how the letter K was pronounced in Tosk Albanian. Some examples i would give based on literature but also on everyday words are Karbala-Qerbela, Makedon-Maqedon, also literally the majority of personal names in Albanian of Ottoman influence such as Qerim(Karim) Qazim(Kasim) pronounce Q instead of K. No one changed the names only the alphabet. Hence the native name is Ismail Qemali. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 12:46, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

These sources account for nearly the entire article and I'm quite surprised how some participants are preferring "Qemali" over "Kemal". This is probably a part of the Albanian-pov pushing group. Nevertheless, I would like to ping some editors who have edi ted Albania-related and Ottoman-related articles. ,, , and. Dashnor Kemalit   (talk)  03:25, 17 July 2024 (UTC) <--- blocked sock of User:SheryOfficial
 * Comment I don't know on what basis "Qemali" is being considered more common than "Kemal" in WP:RS As i highlighted before, nearly this entire article uses "Ismail Kemal" rather than "Qemali". The following WP:RS in this article use Kemal:
 * Skendi, The Albanian National Awakening (1967)
 * Kondis, Greece and Albania, 1908–1914 (1976)
 * Treadway, The Falcon and Eagle: Montenegro and Austria-Hungary, 1908–1914 (1983)
 * Hanioğlu, Preparation for a Revolution: The Young Turks, 1902-1908 (2001)
 * Gawrych, The Crescent and the Eagle: Ottoman Rule, Islam and the Albanians, 1874-1913 (2006)
 * Blumi, Ottoman Refugees, 1878-1939: Migration in a Post-Imperial World (2013)
 * Tütüncü, Grebeneli Bekir Fikri Bey Albay Thomson'a Karşi 1914 Avlonya Olayı [Grebeneli Bekir Fikri Bey against Colonel Thomson: The Case of Vlorë 1914] (2017)
 * Hello, as your a newbie, i see your account was created in July. So i'll give you a few pointers. Your inference of other editors as being probably a part of the Albanian-pov pushing group without evidence is casting WP:ASPERSIONS. In the spirit of good faith, i hope your pinging and choice of a select few editors, some who have done minimal to almost barely any edits here was due to inexperience. But to other editors, in light of what you stated about them could be perceived as WP:CANVASSING, and dabbling in WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Now if any of the editors pinged place a vote here, that will come off as canvassing as they were not involved. I'll give you a fun fact about this article. I am responsible for nearly a quarter of all edits and in terms of content/text, have written about half the article based on non-nationalist scholarship. The very content you refer too to make your points.Resnjari (talk) 19:04, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * DashnorKemalit is a sock of the LTA Sockpuppet investigations/SheryOfficial, so they can be safely ignored. And the user who supported their move request to "Ismail Kemal" is - you guessed it, one of their other socks . I'll strike their comments after their block. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:36, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Considering the recent pagemove was the disruptive work of a sockpuppet, this pagemove discussion has in a sense become one about undoing the sock's edit. Per WP:SOCKSTRIKE, a sock's edits where relevant need to be undone.Resnjari (talk) 15:32, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No need to selectively ping editors. The relevant wikiprojects have already been notified. Ktrimi991 (talk) 09:35, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Seeing that you have pinged editors who literally have NEVER edited this article but have had long discussions/debates with some of editors (on other articles) who have voted in this proposal makes it clearly wp:Canvassing. Also seeing that your account is just 12 days old while the only one who voted agree on your proposal is 11 days old i cant help but to suspect wp:Sockpuppetry. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 11:44, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don’t understand how this user, in only 12 days, is familiar with a number of users from the Greek space who are continuously involved in edit wars over Albanian topics. What a strange discussion this has become. Botushali (talk) 00:44, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Hmm, very interesting indeed.Resnjari (talk) 19:12, 18 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Support, I honestly don’t know how this page was even moved in the first place. The main criterion that decides article names is WP:COMMONNAME, and the common name in the English language as demonstrated by Maleschreiber above is currently ‘Ismail Qemali’. Most Albanians will not recognise “Ismail Kemal”, let alone non-Albanian readers of the article.Botushali (talk) 00:51, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Support - per WP:COMMONNAME and points made by @Maleschreiber.Resnjari (talk) 18:33, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. While the proposed spelling has become more common recently, and is used on more web pages, it has not caught up with the traditional spelling in books, per the n-gram evidence. It's too soon to jump. Dicklyon (talk) 15:05, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "too soon to jump" for what? For restoring the long standing name of the article that was changed only after an improper request move with the participation of only two sock accounts that was quickly closed by a non admin after only one week? This is a high-importance article about Albania, editors should not "jump soon" to make such erroneous choices. And your argument about the WP:COMMONAME is not accurate as already pointed out by User:Maleschreiber above. – Βατο (talk) 15:25, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I meant too soon to declare the modern Albanian spelling to be commonname, over the longstanding much more common name used in English-language sources. I wasn't aware of the previous RM discussion. Dicklyon (talk) 15:37, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Kemal's Islamic sect
This article and many sources affirm that Ismail Kemal was a Bektashian Sufi Muslim but some works such as A Concise History of Albania of Bernd Fischer and ‎Oliver Schmitt state that he was from a Sunni Muslim family? Can someone please confirm as to which sect of Islam did he belong?


 * Bektashism sect falls under the Sunni category so both informations are true. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 12:08, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Hey guys. Bektashi Muslims are not exactly Sunnis, but they’re not exactly Shias either. They’re a Sufi Muslim sect, hence why they have their own designation on the census. Botushali (talk) 00:41, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:45, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The Bektashi Sufis are a complicated lot and their relationship to Sunni Islam also. Qemali was of the elite, being Sunni while also affiliated to Bektashism was not uncommon in the day even with all the frictions and contradictions sufism has with sunnism. The Janissary force is an example where Bektashism was dominant, but created by the Sultan, a Sunni to protect him and the empire.Resnjari (talk) 19:39, 18 July 2024 (UTC)