Talk:Israel/Archive 1

See also: Talk:Jerusalem/capital, where discussion of Jerusalem being Israel's capital has been moved.


 * coupled with improved prospects for the Middle East peace process, are creating a climate for stronger GDP growth in the year 2000.

CIA was dead wrong here (that's not their first time, see their Poland entry). Somebody should fix this sentence asap. --Taw

Last changes about scope and territory by JJ seem to restate once again already mentioned facts. Could anybody else please express his opinion. Maybe the "Territory" section should state more clearly that a dispute exists between Israel and Syria, Israel and Palestinians. Now it's a salad. Iorsh


 * (in which it's very existence was threatened)

Excised. This is hardly an NPOV comment; looks more as though it's in there to be provocative.

I am removing the following claim, from the entry. The claim states "It was born by major ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their homes in the mid 20th-century." First off, many people would say that this is untrue. There is much historical evidence, including public admission by a huge number of Arab leaders, that the exodus of Arabs from the British Mandate of Palestine was due to the Arab themselves, who publicly called for all Arabs to leave Israel, so that the Arab armies could come in and destroy the State of Israel. Secondly, this polemical comment doesn't mention that Arab states did the same thing of their Jewish citizens, attacking them, killing them, and driving them out by the tens of thousands. Even the PLO and the Palestinian Authority have now signed agreements that any future peace accords must take into account the huge number of Jewish refugees. RK

Finally, even assuming that the claim is partially true, this is a complex issue that needs to be discussed in a calm and neutral point of view (NPOV) fashion. You are merely inserting a biased anti-Israeli polemic into an article which has nothing at all to do with that particular topic. This is inappropriate behaviour in the Wikipedia community. You need to read up more on the entries on NPOV, and you absolutely must read the already extant articles on this issue: You appear totally unaware that your claims and related isues are already are discussed in great detail, both in Wikipedia entries on Israel, Palestine, and in their associated Talk pages. There is no need to start a flame war by starting the entire thing all over again in yet another article. This topic already is discussed in more than place. If you must, work on this topic in those appropriate and already-existing articles. RK

actually-you people are the POV junkies. Yes, the statement was POV but rather than NPOV it, you all decided to delete it... DUH'

"It was born by major ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their homes in the mid 20th-century." should become "Some argue that it was a result of major ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their homes in the mid 20th-century"

and yes...Israel is committing genocide. Lir 22:24 Nov 19, 2002 (UTC)

Sorry Lir, but your rant against the Jewish state isn't going to win you any friends. It just demonstrates that you are unqualified to work on an article that make you epxlode in anti-Semitic rage. In any case, this topic already is discussed in many articles. When you and your peers keep trying to add this exact same topic to yet more articles, it becomes clear that you are just trying to stir up hatred against those in Israel, and against those who support its right to exist. That's an evil thing to do. Literally. RK


 * Way harsh, dude. You wanta lighten up a bit? Before you throw the flaming brand of "evil" on Lir's bonfire -- turning her into modern Joan of Arc martyr, why don't you explain slowly and carefully. Not all people who disagree with your POV are raging anti-Semites. That's no way to treat a lady. --Ed Poor

Deleted by RK:


 * It was born by major ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their homes in the mid 20th-century.

It would be better to say that certain people consider that Israel was born, etc. --Ed Poor

indeed, as noted above:

Some argue that it was a result of major ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their homes in the mid 20th-century.

As for exploding into anti-Semitic rage-I would like to let you know that I am Jewish and those who practice our form of Judaism view Israel as an anti-Jewish state, a non-Jewish state, and nationalist Zionist Israelism is nothing but a twisted form of fascism. We feel that Israel is conducting genocide against Palestine, and anyone who doesn't explode into anti-Israel rage at such genocide is probably a racist. Of course we wish to maintain NPOV and merely state that Some people say that Israel is doing these things -- but off the record, Israel is evil and war crimes are bad. Does, "Thou shalt not kill" mean anything to you? Lir 23:19 Nov 19, 2002 (UTC)


 * (A) I doubt you are Jewish. I suspect you are lying. (B) Even if you were Jewish, that is no excuse for anti-Semitism and lies. Being a Jew does not give you some kind of divine license to hurl hateful speech. Take your anti-Semitic rants elsewhere, because we won't let your NPOV violate the academic integrity of this encyclopedia project. Go away, troll. You lose. RK


 * 1) The genocide article explains that international treaties have added to the original meaning of genocide -- extending it to include "crimes" other than murder. Perhaps your battle is with the UN rather than with Lir. She didn't say "mass-murderers" anywhere I can see (if she does, I will change my tune -- rapidly and decisively).
 * 2) "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." So please hesitate before fighting "hateful speech" with your own spiteful rage. A little courtesy, even when apparently unmerited, will get you more of what you want than name-calling. Try it for a week, and see. :-) --Ed Poor 14:53 Nov 20, 2002 (UTC)


 * Danny, Ed, I shall agree with you, and do it your way. Seriously. My only exception will be today's comment made at someone who claimed that the Holocaust didn't really happen, and that it was only an alleged event. My BS detector went off, bells ringing, at that one. But other than that specific charge, I will defer to the positions that both of you have stated. RK

Just to make myself clear, I do not object to Wikipedia entries discussing the charges of ethnic cleansing (and the like) in regards to the formation of the State of Israel, or to any other countries to that matter. Nor do I object to Arab, UN, or Israeli points of view being equally represented. What I do object to is this particular anti-Israeli polemic repeatedly being placed into this article, especially in an out-of-context fashion that violates NPOV. Why should the same issue be repeated in four different entries? This is already discussed in detail in the entries on Israel, Palestine, and in their associated Talk pages. RK


 * born by major ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their homes in the mid 20th-century.

I don't understand what "born by" means. Does this refer to Israel's economic success, or to its being created by confiscated lands, or what? Rather than delete this puzzling remark, let's discuss it. --Ed Poor


 * Some critics (mostly in the Arab world) say Israel was "born by major ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their homes in the mid 20th-century." (author unknown)

This is better covered in the History of Israel article and in the extensive series of article on the Arab-Israeli conflict.

An Arabic translation of "State of Israel" is needed. The Geography, Demographics and other sections need to be expanded. --Jiang

Perhaps we need to turn this article ("Israel") into a disambiguation page. The new content could read: RK 21:25 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * This is a disambiguation page.
 * State of Israel - This article discusses the modern State of Israel.
 * Jacob - This article discusses the Biblical patriarch Jacob, also known as Israel.
 * History of ancient Israel and Judah - This article discusses the history of ancient Israel and Judah.
 * Kingdom of Israel
 * Israelites - This article concerns the twelve tribes of Israel as described in the Bible, and modern historical debates about the origins of the Israelites.

Just make sure all the links to this page are fixed and I won't complain. --mav


 * There are a lot of pages that link here. I sugest we keep the article on the State of Israel here and put a link to Israel (disambiguation) at the top of the page. - Efghij